Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

>    ... and I can really hear a difference... (Now for the sucker
>   punch... does anyone think I made a mistake or got ripped off?)
    
If   y o u   can hear a difference, why should you care what anyone
else thinks?

If you can't - yea, you got ripped off :-).


-- Ron

I stopped by Service Merchandise in Holyoke, Ma. last night but couldn't
find the cable and there were no salesman around to help.  So I checked
their catalog and couldn't find it listed in there, either!

Would you know the SM part number for the cable that they use for their
inventory retrieval system?

		Thanks, jim

I'd like to hear what Stereophile or Audio have to say on those cables. I don't 
recall those cables being mentioned in Cordesman's cable survey (was it 
Cordesman?) in Stereophile.

Cables make one HELL of a difference, which I can attest to, having made a 
significant investment in Straight Wire cables (>$250, yes Lord I confess).

Nah, you didn't get ripped off, but caveat other emptors until Stereophile gets 
its hands on these.

							- craig

    Having recently re-cabled my system from a large number of generic
    cables to a smaller number of Inter-Link 4 cables (from Monster
    Fable), my experience is that cables can make a discernable
    difference. To characterize the difference as "large", however,
    is to engage in hyperbole. When I switched from one set to the
    other, I could hear a difference. Had I left the room, let somebody
    else switch it one way or the other, and returned, I seriously
    doubt I could have reliably known which set was in place without
    the convenience of instant comparison.
    
    The kind of difference I heard (and spent money to maintain, after
    all) is something I'd describe as significant when you're listening
    to the equipment, and irrelevant when you're listening to the music. 

RE: .4

The technical term in experimental science for the phenomenon you describe
is The Placebo Effect.  It is the reason why non-blind studies are meaningless.

--PSW

You can very closely model the effects of cables as a simple lumped circuit,
composed of a series inductance and some shunt capacitance.  Some preamps
(for example the high end preamp made by KRELL) have quite high output
impedances, in the neighborhood of severl K ohm.  Thus switching cables
can certainly have a noticible effect if one has trained themselves to
descern small frequency response differences.

This is the reason I'd *never* spend mony on such cables myself, and would
rather make up cables out of some good quality wire like Negalex, in the
correct length, and leave it at that.

One other point - if you change cables in a system that's been set up for
quite a long time, it's more than likely that simply moving the connectors
around will result in better connections - gold plated connectors and jacks
are intert, and will give better connections in the long run.

And here's a thought to ponder on blindfold listening tests...

Would it be more 'accurate' to, say, put on the Boston Marathon without
timing everyone, and just use anectodal evidence about how the contestants
felt they did during the run?

- Jim

   
    We may be getting into an endless discussion (yes you can/no you
    cant) on the audibility of cables.  The last three replies have
    all got valid points.  For instance: 
    
    1) You can certainly model the electrical equivilant of a cable 
       and understand how it interacts with output and input
       configurations.  Whether the model will lead you to an objective 
       description of how it sounds vs. another cable is open to discussion.   
    
    2) Unplugging and replugging the same cables can sometimes be a bigger
       improvement than new cables. That doesnt mean it IS, just that it
       can be.  Contact corrosion is unpredictable and certainly worth
       preventing in any system (the cable contact points are just the
       beginning) which is why Cramolin was developed. Anyone compairing
       2 sets of cables should be certain contact corrosion is not
       contributing to the evaluation.
    
    3) The "Placebo Effect" is always a risk when doing subjective
       evaluation.  The only way to guard against it is to be as honest
       as possible with yourself.  When the differences between components
       becomes sufficiently small, there is a tendency to favor the
       one with more hype (written, visual, newness, expense). I find
       I will settle on a favored product and in a few weeks, if still
       possible, will go back and listen to both again. I have found
       my preference switch back occasionally (depending on the closeness
       of the 2 products and how they err relative to my perception
       of perfect), which is OK too.
    
    As to whether the cables are any good or not almost has to be answered
    in the context of your system alone. That means by you. 
    
    I would like to point out that in fact many folks run the Boston
    Marathon and find victory in things beside the stopwatch. Does the
    fact that their time is not the most important thing to them make 
    their experiences any less valid?

    
    Finally I would like to mention that if I (and hoards of others)
    had waited around for the A-B'ers and the meter readers to come
    up with conclusive tests which accurately measure what we say we
    hear, we would all still be stuck with some pretty horrible sounding
    equipment. Most of the sonic improvements made in the last 15 years
    havent been quantum leaps in fundamental distortion reduction which
    seems to be what it takes to measure and hear in A-B listening.
    They have been small changes, often partially masked by other system
    problems, not yet corrected, made as a result of someone insisting
    they heard an improvement. This whole process has (and continues
    to be) very iterative. Some 'improvements' have been only temporary,
    often compensating for a shortcoming elsewhere (I remember in '78
    experimenting with Tantalum caps on a Hafler preamp - which brightened
    up the sound nicely. We later discovered we were compenstaing for
    the dead sound of cables and moving coil transformers, and the
    tantalums sounded awful when better head amps and cleaner interconnects
    came 'round).
    
    'Nuff said on my part.
    
    Walt

    Can we please not get into an endless discussion?  I'm interested
    in hearing what is said about about high-end products like special
    cables but I'm not especially interested in the
    yes-i-can-hear-the-difference and
    why-the-hell-would-anyone-spend-money-on-that-trash arguments. It's
    been played out before with no victors and plenty of losers who
    have to read the endless arguments at 1200 baud.
    
    (No flames here, just stating a preference.)
    
    Repentant arguer,
    Gary