Conference cookie::notes$archive:cd_v1

    
    	I had the same problem a few months ago. The solution for me
    	was a pair of KEF 104/2. Cd's require an accurate speaker. My
    	older pair just didn't bounce back quick enough. I also chose
    	adcom gear (555 series) to back them up.
    
    john//

    I suggest you ask in the DSSDEV::AUDIO conference.  You'll
    get LOTS of opinions there!
    				Steve

    Try Allison's. The model number will depend on placement. If you
    are in the Sudbury area, go to Electric Gramaphone to here them.
    You can also see them in Lechmeres. 

    
    If you're not afraid to spend a few bucks, try auditioning the Klipsh
    Forte' speakers. These speakers are just about the best I've ever
    heard. They are very sensitive also, so your amp doesn't have to
    work too hard to achieve concert-like volume levels. Currently
    they go for about $ 1000.00 a pair. 
    
    

I had  the  same  problem  recently (CD source suddenly made my old speakers
sound  inadequate), and I went with a smaller (read, cheaper) Klipsch -- the
KG4s, about $500 a pair. I really like them.

    
    	Well, if you have some *BIG $$$s * to blow - try the Quads

    I listened to a pair of Polk Audio speakers at Cuomo's that blew
    my mind.  The stereo imaging was incredible and I've yet to hear
    anything better.  The price is up there, not sure how much, but
    I know they seemed worth it.
    

    re .7
    
    I own a pair of Polk RTA-11 (a discontinued model) speakers.  They
    are fantastic with a CD player.  Polk has quite a price range for
    speakers.  I would suggest at least a demo of the pair that fits
    your price range.  I'm real impressed by Polk!
    
    Don

    Re:.6 I would not recommend Quads to handle the dynamic range and
    volume demands that CD's are likely to place on your system.  I agree
    that Quads sound very good at low to medium volume, but if you try to
    play them loudly, or set the volume to hear the quiet passages of
    Telarc's "1812", you'll find them arcing and placing a short across the
    output of your power amp.  I understand that at sea level the Quad ESL
    63's are rated to produce 103 to 105db at 1 meter.  In testing in
    Albequerque however, they were found to have an upper limit around 97db
    due, likely, to the reduced atmospheric pressure at the 5,000-7,000
    foot elevation of that city.
    
    If live concert levels are not needed, the Quad is a very good sounding
    speaker, at about $3,500.00 in Rochester, NY.
    

    As long as we're listing favorites, might as well add my own.
    
    I listened to the Polks, but didn't like them.  I ended up with
    dbx Soundfield 100s which blew away the Polks in imaging and
    flat room response down to 40Hz, in my opinion.  They're very
    efficient too.  Do not compare these to the higher priced
    Soundfield 10 and 1A which, in my mind, aren't really worth it.
    There is also a smaller Soundfield 1000 which is very nice.
    
    				Steve

    re: .7 & 8
    
    I own a pair of Polk RTA12's and I love'em. Great sounding with
    just about any type of music. The RTA12's are also discontinued
    and their new line is even better.
    
    Nebraska Marty

    I'll second both the Polks and the Klipsch.
    
    However, much as I liked the Polks, both the SDA-2A and SDA-1B I
    found that they only did their "really good" imaging in just the
    right spot.
    
    I've got the Klipsch Forte' and I love them.  They DEFINITELY
    do a great job (for my taste) on any of the music I've listened
    to.  The KG4 is cheaper and also does a good job.  The HERESY is
    another Klipsch that sounds great.  If I ever buy a house with a
    room the right size (big) I'M GONNA PUT IN A SET OF 'HORNS!!!
    
    BUT, if you get into the AUDIO conference you'll find lots of folks
    that disagree with everything here.  I think you're just going to
    have to pay the price of going out and LISTENING.  Then buy the
    ones that flip your trigger!  
    
    its almost entirely subjective,
    D

    If you're shopping in the Denver area, check and see if an outfit
    called Profound Sound is still in business.  I bought a set of
    M&K satellites and a subwoofer from them about 5 years ago.  They
    carried Polk, M&K, Infinity and lots of others.  It was a good place
    to listen. 
    
    If they're no longer in business, a place in Colorado Springs, the
    Sound Shop has a fair selection of interesting speakers.  I especially
    liked the Cantons.  If you're in the CS area and want to stop by
    and listen to the M&K's at my place give me a call.  DTN 522-4071.
    
    Doug Dickerson
    

    re .9	I don't seriously believe that any sane person sets
    their volume control to hear the quiet passages of the "1812" (not
    written by Telarc) and leaves it there for the cannon shots.  Yes,
    quads need amps that can take a short if you put out too much power,
    so ?

    Re:.14
    
    Sorry if I offended anyone.  I think that the Quads sound great.
    I also think that they don't play loudly and that they are missing
    the last octave of bass energy.  If you have an additional $3-5K
    for matching a power amp to these speakers, they will sound better
    than almost anything else available, bar none.  They will also make
    you want to get the best available pre-amp, turntable, cd player,
    etc.  But it would be an enjoyable quest!
    

    I also am very pleased with the Klipch Fortes' I bought about 7
    months ago.
    

Well, I have a pair of Advents that I bought in '77, and for $400 a pair
this year at Lechmere (New England area), you probably still can't beat
them, especially for depth of bass response.  They aren't as accurate as 
something like, say, Snell, which is what I'd have if I had to buy 
speakers today; but with a good equalizer and spectrum analyzer, I'm 
*thrilled* with them.  

As for demo records, anybody can shoot off a cannon.  There's more to 
music than senseless dynamic range.  Let's talk *real* music.  Anybody
who'd like to attempt to survive the Dorati/Detroit Rite of Spring on my
system, let me know, and the next time you pass through Nashua, NH...

Dick Binder

    re .17
    
    I'll second the motion on the Advents. Mighty fine speaker for the
    price. If you want to save some money and get decent sound, go with
    'em. But, if you've got money to burn, try something expensive,
    like Thiels or Klipsch's or Snells or (ulp) Quads.
    
    rw

    
    RE: .20
    
    I haven't been in the market for quite some time but was surprised
    at the ommision of Bose speakers. I have a pair of original 601's.
    I have had them for 9 years and they still sound great. I drive
    them with a Luxman L80-V integrated amp. I have heard people say
    they don't like Bose but if they are set-up properly I don't think
    their direct-reflecting sound can be beat. I don't know what the
    601's go for now but when I bought mine the list price was in the
    $500-$600 range if I remember  correctly.
    
                                              HOOT
    

    
    I went home last night and gave some thought to the note I entered
    in .19 and thought one point should be clarified.  Many folks will
    read all this and also note several other facts such as: if there
    are only 15 or 20 "good" speakers in the world, why do so many of
    the others sell and how do those companies keep in business?  This
    applies to just about everything else in life from refrigerators
    to cars to cameras.
    
    I can't speak for the cars or most other things, but for the sake
    of discussion let's concentrate on stereo gear.  Some folks will
    think that the "audiophiles" of the world are snobs or "what the
    heck do they know?, I love my speakers...".  There is no right or
    wrong here, just a matter of perspective and both camps win.
    
    The guy who loves his BOSE speakers and the guy who goes nuts over
    the Polk SDA experience and the Klipsch people who would own nothing
    else are indeed lucky.  They receive great enjoyment and that is
    THE important factor in selecting stereo gear.  No matter what the
    "experts" say, if you don't like it, then you shouldn't buy it.
    
    What I look for is to accurately recreate the live musical experience
    as closely as possible.  I want to be able to position instruments
    correctly front to back and right to left.  I don't want the edges
    of piano and violin notes to be ragged or "colored (changed from
    the original in some way)".  I want the soundstage to be proper
    for the type of music:jazz, clasical, rock, pop or whatever. I don't
    want "pizazz", I want the real thing.  Now, there aren't a whole
    lot of speakers in the world that can do that well, maybe 15 or
    20 out of the hundreds and hundreds available and all are quite
    expensive.  You also have to deal with the "diminishing returns
    law" or if I spend $2000 for a stereo, the next $2000 for a $4000
    system doesn't get me twice the quality but maybe 10% better.
    
    So we AUDIO folks are always evaluating the stuff around and trying
    to figure out how to get the "best bang for the buck" and we're
    always glad to help people on buying decisions.  I have heard the
    big Polk SDA speakers on many occasions in several stores with various
    types of music.  I think they get your juices flowing on rock music
    and would be great at a party.  However, I sure don't want to do
    any serious listening on them.  They don't sound like the real thing
    at all.  Most general market speakers that you see in your average
    stereo store can't hack it either.  You probably have heard someone
    say that a speaker has "boomy" bass.  That is a very common fault
    of many speakers.  It happens because the design and resonant frequency
    of the speaker tends to "enhance" a particular frequency and when
    you here that area of notes, the bass seems to be much louder. 
    I sure don't want my speakers to do that.  
    
    To see what we're talking about, go to a couple of live concerts
    and really listen to how it sounds.  Try to remember exactly what
    it aurally "feels like".  And then go home and listen to your system
    and honestly evaluate if that sounds like what you heard.  It probably
    won't unless you have a very expensive system and most of us can't
    afford one.  You may love how it sounds, but if you are honest,
    I'll bet you will realize that it doesn't sound like live.
    
    That is what we are talking about when we clobber a piece of gear.
    
    Try this one, I often suggest to friends that they take one of their
    speakers or both to a store.  Then A-B them to a really good speaker
    and they always see the difference right away.
    
    Take your favorite album to a good store and listen to it on a top
    flight system.  And don't trust the average salesman to know what
    that is.  If the store sells $200 receivers, they probably don't
    know.  The first time I heard one of my favorites on a world class
    system about 15 years ago, it brought tears to my eyes.  I couldn't
    believe what I heard.  I was spoiled from then on.
    
    No, most of us will never own $10,000 stereos.  But what you can
    do is spend the 2-3 thou the best you can.  That's where we can
    help.  Ultimately...trust your ears..
    
    Regards, Jim
    
    

    re .19 and .22	Well, I'm pleased I didn't respond immediately
    to these, Jim has put us more in the picture with .22.  I have been
    a Quad fan for, well... a while.  I have some kind of an eternal
    hang up about listening to the equipment vs the content, to some
    extent this has always kept me from *THE* home sound system I would
    really like.  Here's roughly what I think I am listening to when
    I "listen to" music, as opposed to hearing it as background:-
    
    	a)	What the composer/originator appeared to be trying to
		express.  To me this is the original artistic component.
    	b)	How the performer(s) interpreted it.  Of course I don't
		have scores of everything I listen to, but I often form
    		some opinions as to what has been added or deleted by
    		artistic interpretation. 
    	c)	The performers' execution of their interpretation. 
    	d)	The recording, i.e. "the mix". 
    	e)	Reproduction through my equipment and into my living room. 

    	So, for example, it would matter to me less if my equipment
    lost some overtones than if the performer dropped a note or two
    (and don't they all ?), similarly that would matter less than a
    poor (in my opinion) interpretation or a piece of junk (subjective)
    music.  The above priorities list leads predictably to my spending
    habits; Live performances take precedence over recordings; music
    I like takes precedence over music that is well performed; music
    that is well recorded takes precedence over better gear to replay
    it through.  Yes, I'd like a set of new Quad speakers, but I could
    have a better time spending that money on disks I still want (~300 ?),
    or better yet I could go to quite a few (~150 ?) live concerts.

    	Reg
    

    
    You know, we need to get more interchange between the CD and AUDIO
    NOTES conferences.  They have much in common.
    
    One of the guys in AUDIO, in response to the note on the Stereophile
    list, asked that some systems be suggested from the list that would
    be a good "bang for the buck".  In other words, since most can't
    afford class B speakers, what is good that you CAN afford.  I am
    going to open a note in AUDIO to address that but here's a quick
    tip list...totally subjective of course...
    
    It's better to buy 60% of a $4000 system than 100% of a $2500 system.
    In other words, don't try to get everything at once. Start with
    one input and add others as you go.  Your music will sound better,
    you won't have to trade anything in soon, the gear will have better
    resale later.
    
    Opinion here: 98% of stereo salespeople know less than you do. Or
    worse, they know a little and that makes them very dangerous when
    they play with your dollars.  Try to buy using quality magazine
    reviews, talk to friends who are "in the know" and take your time
    and do lots of comparative listening.  When you have narrowed your
    choice for a piece of gear to 2 or 3, try to hear it in more than
    one store.  They can play games with controls and using various
    other pieces of gear to make almost anything sound passable.  Try
    to listen to all electronics in "flat" position.  Don't allow yourself
    to be intimidated by the salesman.  Feel free to ask that speakers
    be moved around if they don't sound right, I do it all the time.
    
    Here's one system I like that isn't a trillion dollars that I like
    and recently recommended to a friend:
    
           Adcom 555 preamp/555 power amp  about 1200
           Dual CS-5000 table/AR EB101.....pick one
                 with jShure V15-VMR or good Ortofon
           Yahama T-85 tuner/Onkyo T9090...pick one
           Magnavox 560 CD
           NAD 6300 cassette deck
           Thiel CS2 speakers/Celestion SL6S/Vandersteen 2C  pick one
    
    Not cheap but really decent for the money.  Much can be gotten mail
    order for additional savings.
    Want to chop a grand off that price? Drop the tuner and cassette
    and add later.  Save even more, get either CD or LP, add other later.
    
    You can mix and match forever, but the above offers good value and
    pretty decent sound.
    
    Again, reference AUDIO file in general and 1252.15 in particular.
    Most any audio question has an answer in AUDIO.
    
    Regards, Jim
                                       
    
           
    

    
    FYI, note 1252.15 in AUDIO has been updated with prices in 1252.20.
     Highly recommend you take a look, interesting and informative.
     Unfortunately, quality gear costs. It would be difficult to put
    together even a minimal system from the list for less than $3000.
    
    Regards, Jim
    

    I am considering buying my first CD player, and was wondering if
    my existing speakers would be adequate for average, occasional,
    non-audiophile listening or would they be a terrible weak link in
    my system.
    
    My speakers are a pair of Acoustic Research AR-4AX's, almost twenty
    years old.
    
    The other components are much newer.  The Sony STR-VX450 receiver
    is two years old, has CD/AUX and VIDEO modes, and is on the small
    side, power-wise (35 watts/channel).
    
    Has anyone out there used a CD in a system with AR-4 speakers and
    felt OK about them ?
    
    Jim (keeping my fingers crossed that I don't need to buy speakers
         too)

    I think that questions about speakers are more appropriate for
    the DSSDEV::AUDIO conference.  But I'll mention that speakers do
    degrade over time, and twenty years is a long time.  Also, your
    receiver is too low power to do justice to CDs (I went from an
    STR-VX550 (50WPC) to a Carver AVR-100 (150WPC), and noticed
    a big difference in distortion.)
    					Steve

    A friend of mine had roughly the same situation as you; he had upgraded
    his amp (to a Sansui, 100 wpc) and was still using his 20 years old AR
    (2AX I think) speakers when he got his CD player. He immediately
    started blowing tweeters whenever the dynamics got too great and
    it got to the point where he had to play the system rather quietly
    when using CDs as the source. He broke down and got a pair of
    moderately priced up-to-date speakers (B+W DM330, ~$600-700), loves
    the speakers, and can play his CDs (classical) as loud as his ears
    can take it with no strain whatsoever on the speakers.
                  
    Maybe not what you wanted to hear, but hope it helps.
    
    Dick Rosenberg

    I used to listen to CDs with a pair of AR-3A speakers (actually,
    the midranges were upgraded to AR-10 mids, but thats another
    story.  I used a 50 WPC Yamaha receiver.  It was quite acceptable,
    and the AR-4 is more similar to the AR-3A than to the AR-2Ax.  The
    speakers were eventually replaced, but that was some time later.
    
    				Paul
    

    Thanks to those who responded to my speaker question RE: using twenty
    year old AR4 speakers with a CD player and low power receiver.
    
    I am rethinking my decision to get into the CD scene, based on the
    potential investment, and the fact that I never listened much to
    LP albums, so why do I think I'd listen to CD's any more than vinyl?
    
    Maybe one day.
    
    Thanks again,
    
    Jim

    Jim,  before you leave us, one last note.  I too had slacked off
    on listening to my stereo, and this was not too long after I bought
    a whole new system (sans CD).  This did not make my wife too happy
    after forking out all those $, and rightly so.  Then I bought a
    CD player (talk about a sales job--you should have seen me explain
    that one).  Somehow, it turned everything around.  I average probably
    1-2 discs a night now.  I can't explain it--it may be the better
    sound, the ease of use (salesman's term), or the alignment of the
    stars.  But the $400 investment probably easily quintupled the use
    of the rest of my equipment.  
    
    I don't guarantee this would happen to you, but it is something
    to think about.
    
    Bruce
    

Re: .30, .31

I have primarily been a radio listener.  I have a couple of hundred
LPs, but I hardly ever listen to them.
Then I got my CD player (for the same reason George Harrison did, to listen
to the new Beatles CDs).

Like .31, I now listen almost nightly.  Part of it is novelty, but
convenience is a bigger part.  It's easier to load and start a CD,
and much easier to pick tracks, and  I don't even have direct access
track selection (I have to step).

All in all, the medium is fantastic.

- tom]

    re .30-.32
    
    My record collection was, and still is, in the closet.  I'd pretty
    much given up on listening to music except for the radio.  Then
    I bought a CD player.  Listening to music is now a must each night!
    I don't know if you would change your listening habits by purchasing
    a CD player, but I know quite a few people who now make time due
    to CDs!

Actually, the real reason people are listening more now is that they have 
fewer CD's, so it's easier to make a decision on what to play.  With vinyl, 
you have hundreds of albums to choose from, and the decision of which one to 
put on is so stressful that you end up not playing anything at all!


				Mark

    re:.34
    
    And where does that put those of us who have hundreds of CD's?
    
    I admit that now and then, I have trouble picking what to play.
    But my usual rule of thumb is:
    
    		When in doubt, play TIME OUT
    
    Works every time. :-)
    
    --- jerry

    I listen to CDs more because...
    
    	1.  I don't have to perform "the ritual" of cleaning the
    	    record before playing.
    
    	2.  I don't have to grit my teeth at the pops and clicks
    	    and skips that show up even on brand new albums.
    
    	3.  I don't have to jump up every 15-20 minutes to flip
    	    the record.
    
    	4.  The CDs sound better (I had not invested in megabucks
    	    turntables)
    
    I now have far more CDs than I ever did LPs....
    
    				Steve

I'm not sure people realise I was making a joke!


				Mark

    Add me to the list of people who listen nightly to CDs.
    
    What about my (admittedly small) record collection?  Given
    away, with my turntable!
    
    Shhhh...don't tell anyone in Audio notes!

    
    
    Where are all you people that give away your record collections
    ???   I, for one, would be more than happy to relieve anyone of
    a decent collection (Of course, I've also been converted to CD'ism,
    but many records are irreplaceable).
    
    				The Cruiser
    
    

    RE .34
    
    If you mean Dave Brubeck's (sp?) TIME OUT, how is the transfer to
    CD? I've got TIME FURTHER OUT and others on LP but haven't seen
    any CD's of his here in the UK.
    
    (Sorry for the slight topical diversion!)
    
    PS
    
    I also used to be greatly annoyed by most of my LPs as I never took
    good care of them - I now listen to an average of 10 to 15 CDs a
    week. An expensive habit, though!

    re:.40
    
    Yes, I meant Dave Brubeck's TIME OUT. I think it's one of the
    best-sounding CD's in my collection. You have to be careful,
    though. The original CD issue is the one I have. Later on, CBS
    reissued it as part of their "Jazz Masters" line and digitally
    remastered it. From what I've heard, the remastering is awful.
    
    --- jerry

    re .41: I'm glad I have the "origional" version then, because when
    the remastered copy came out I wanted it, rather then the blissful
    hiss of the origional.  Just what got botched in the remastering?
    
    GAS

    re:.42
    
    I haven't actually heard the remastered version; I'm only going
    by hearsay, so I don't know exactly what got botched.
    
    As for the unremastered CD, I find it remarkably hiss-free, given
    the age of the recording.
    
    --- jerry