Conference marvin::uk_music

    
    Er, well, I've never heard of Nephlim (what an admission! There goes my 
    street cred!!! :^)), but I must admit to a sneaking liking for the
    Sisters Of Mercy (Not that I've ever actually parted with cash and
    bought a record by them, but I may one day.) and did I read right?
    Siouxie and the Banshees are Goth? Strewth! I was Goth 10 years ago
    then! :^)
    
    Mark
    

I wouldn't have classed S & the B's as Goth really either.

I always prefered "Goth" to punk.  The March Violets for example and not
forgetting The Southern Death Cult as they were known then.
Bauhaus will always have a place in my collection, right between the B52's
and The Beloved.

David(where's me back-comb)

    It's a matter of context. In the UK Goths seem OK to me, they fit in
    with the decor. But I went back to Sydney last summer and saw a few
    gothy types, all in black walking past Bondi Beach, when it's hot as
    hell. That's when to be a goth is to be a complete dickhead.
                                                       

    The March Violets? Snakedance was a good un but the album "Natural 
    History" must rank as one of the worst albums of all time. Was'nt the
    female singer called Cleopatra? 
    
    Barry. 

    
    I think Goths are ok. Live and let live etc. Making a generalisation
    like 'They're sh*te' is rather stupid methinks, as its like saying that
    the only difference between Volvo's and Hedghogs is that the hedgehogs
    have the pricks on the outside.
    
    Anyway, my two p's worth.

    Siouxsie is goth in the sense that she dresses the part and has spawned
    quite a few lookalikes. Stuff like "Swimming Horses" is also a little
    bit gothic as well. (and to surprise you all I really like Siouxsie).
     
     The Nephlim (as I called them in .0) are The Fields Of Nephlim and
    specialise in long droning pretentious rubbish that never ends. Their
    lyrics are also unbelieveably naff.(even worse than the Mission).
    
     re. The Sisters of Mercy , well they're (or rather him and the drum
    machine) are turning into a rock band more than anything else. Actually
    they're doing an o.k. job. (More is great as is the whole L.P. if
    you're in the mood).
    
     Bauhaus are/were great but they (and Siouxsie and Robert Smith) 
    are responsible for loads of kiddies dressing up like the Adams Family 
    and generally being really pretentious and silly , thinking that
    they're cool and different. I wouln't mind so much if they knew what
    they were doing , or meant it but most of them don't know any Siouxsie
    stuff pre. "Dear Prudence" and no Bauhaus stuff whatsoever. Please note
    that Pete Murphy seems to have gotten tou of the goth scene completely
    with Love and Rockets.
    
               Niall
            

    RE: -1
    
    The Nephilim do not always do long droning (etc...) tracks at all! What
    about Preacher Man, Power, Laura etc... i.e. all the old guitary stuff?
    They just changed tack to try new things with the likes of Psychonaut
    and Sumerland. I think that the LP Elizium is really excellent and
    believe that many non-Goths would think the same, very atmospheric,
    almost Pink-Floydish. As for the lyrics, you have to understand Carl
    McCoys interests in shamanism, the occult etc... for example - it seems
    to me that the main inspiration for the Elizium LP was the classic
    novel "What Dreams May Come" (hence the track Sumerland(What Dreams May
    Come) ) by Richard Matheson. Many references that may seem to be
    pretentious twosh to you relate to parts of the book e.g. "Peering back
    at myself... through the webs people weave..." is a reference to a
    phrase from a particular part of the story, so it makes sense to me...
    They can certainly play well live too, the Sisters of Mercy, IMHO did
    many, many abysmal live concerts, and Andrew Eldritch sure can't sing
    live! I agree about the Mission though :-)
    
    Whatever people think of Goths (the people), there can be no doubt that
    in amongst the grunge, jangly stuff and droning (!) there's some damn
    good music if you look hard enough - Skeletal Family & Xmal Deutschland
    for example, but there's also some sh*te too - Ghostdance, the Mission.
    
    FWIW - many of my non-Goth friends love the Nephilim because it has a
    certain raw power (sic), especially the old "Dawnrazor" stuff.....
    
    Anyone else?	;-)
    
    								- JIM CAD*
    
    P.S. I love Death In June & CURRENT93 because the lyrics are so
    negative and destructive (I'll post some of the "funnier" lines if I
    have time later)
    
    

    Did'nt Carl McCoy play the desert scavenging scrap merchant in
    the film Hardware? He being the chappy responsible for bringing 
    the unloveable android back to the city. Lemmy's part in that film 
    was also memorable, a river-taxi driver who turns on a radio belting
    out "Ace of Spades" whilst saying something like "This is more like,
    a good band from the old days."
    
    Barry.  

    "Elizium" was crap IMH and in the opinion of almost everone who
    reviewed it. It sold badly, even by comparison with other Neph stuff.
     The live L.P. released this year was by all accounts a complete dog
    but I can't comment 'cos I haven't heard it.
     Anyway they've said they'll never work together again or something
    like that so I reckon even if it's not the end of them it'll be a
    while. Maby they'll return to the tolerable     Dawnazor type of stuff
     (as opposed to the excerable Elizium - I've only met one person who
    liked it) but until then drone on.
    
                 Niall
    

    Does anyone know what 946.7 was all about?
    
    In other news, I always thought that the hedgehog joke was "what's the
    difference between a police car and a hedgehog?" Same answer, of
    course.
    
    Piers

    
    No, no, no.
    
    The Volvo/Police car SHOULD be a BMW.
    
    Of course the Police do use a lot of BMWs! :^)
    
    Mark

    I know what .7 was on about	:-)
    
    RE: Elizium - it was a top 30 LP!!! It rated *highly* in nearly all
    reviews (8 or 9 out of 10 in NME I think, 5 stars in Kerrang! if I
    remember what I was told).
    
    They have split up, both halves are working on new stuff, Carl is going
    towards the "weird" stuff, the other guys will probably go more back
    towards Dawnrazor - should keep everyone happy.
    
    BTW - what was so unintelligable about .7 ?
    
    								- JIM CAD*

    
    >> Does anyone know what 946.7 was all about?
    
    Well, it *was* quite an intellectual jibe.

    That's the trouble with E-mail, you don't know whether someone is being
    shallow and missing the point completely or being subtle and attacking
    the nature of the note itself in an amusing way, e.g. asking what a
    note describing hidden meanings and confusion is all about!
    
    Since there was no smile :-) or wink ;-) I assumed the former...
    
    								- JIM CAD*

    Elizium peaked at no.23 but only spent two more weeks on the top 100.
    NME savaged it as did MM and SELECT. The only hit single they've ever
    had came in at no.37 ant then fell out of the top 100 forever. It's a
    record (sic) and an unenviable one at that.
    
             Niall
    

    Hi again...
    
    RE: Savaging, I specifically remember excellent reviews... strange
    conflict here... have you got the reviews still? Maybe I remember a
    pre-view?
    
    Moonchild, Psychonaut were both top 40 singles. I think that For Her
    Light and Sumerland were both briefly in the top 40 (haven't got
    specific details again - I'll see if I have info at home...)
    
    It's not as if the charts are a good indicator of a band's worth
    anyways is it? Look at Kylie & Jason... I was just replying since I
    recall different things to what you said... from some source  ;-/
    
    Does anyone else know the facts here? (If they're bothered :-) )
    
    								- JIM CAD*

I was dissapointed by lack of goths at the grope on friday night - I even
requested 'she sells sanctuary' - where are the goths when you need 'em?! :-)



...ex_goth

   "She Sells Sanctuary" is a classic amongst classics.

    
    I would have thought that if NME, Smash Hits and any of the other music
    press gave any music a slating (eg The Utterly Brilliant 'Elezium')
    then that was a sure fire reason to buy it. I cannot think of a more
    'pretentious bunch of tw*ts' than these idiot reviewers, except perhaps
    those who buy and give credence to such self congratulatory garbage.
    
    Also if a song fails to make the charts does that make it rubbish? I
    think not, compare the song 'Space Oddity' which was originally a
    failure against any of the Kylie/Dannii/Bryan Adams gunk.
    
    IMHO 'The Mission' the best Goth band because of their sheer presence.
    They are much more driving than 'The Fields of the Nephilm' (who are
    also marvellous) and the 'Sisters of Mercy' who are a little close to
    rock for my comfort.
    
    Jules 

    re .19
    
    Well said, that man.
    
    Mark
    
    

    And me, I was that reviewer.
    
    I only buy the papers to see what I've written, anyway.
    
    Piers

    
    Ah, Jules. 
    
    Of course that could be Julie abbreviated? Anyway, 'that man' didn't
    imply any particular comment on your sex. After all, that's your
    business and who am I to judge! :^)
    
    Mark

    Jules,
    
    	Well said! ({ripple of applause, muffled cheer etc...})
    
    	BTW - According to my Neph club info, Elizium reached 22, I don't
    	have details of the singles, I thought the discography might say
    	but it didn't	:-(
    
 and...
    
    	RE: The Hope 'n' Grope replies:
    
    	I was disappointed too, the DJ promised "She Sells Sanctuary"
    and/or "This Corrosion". By the time I had lost awareness of what I was
    doing I hadn't heard either (he only played "that Nirvana track")!
    
    	Does anyone like Death In June or CURRENT93, 6th Comm, Nurse With
    Wound?
    
    								- JIM CAD*

	"Goth" isn't really about music .. is it? Its just a fashion statement.
	(And its pretty much "old hat" by now, surely)

	Bauhaus were one of my favourite bands around 1980/81.. great
	gigs those were. But I don't think "Goth" was even heard of till
	the band had long since split.

	In short, how do you tell a Goth record without its cover? 

	Dave

    
    What on earth is .22 on about????
    
    'Jules' is short for Julian
    
    Is 'Mark' short 'Marjorie'?

    
    Yeah, Jules.
    
    I just had a sudden flash that MAYBE Jules was short for Julie (Well ok
    not short, just different). I had a friend who called HERself Jules and
    was Julie.
    
    Marjorie. (err, is that long for Mark?)

RE: .24 (?)

Hi,

	When "Goth" was "in", I'm sure most people were like that purely because
	it was the fashion... it surely is a bit "old hat" now... however I'm
	glad to say that I know many, many people for whom "Goth" is a certain
	way of thinking, and a group of people with similar ionterests and
	tastes. If I was trying to make a fashion statement I would surely
	not be dressed like this nowadays... which I wrote at length to explain
	in the DECITs conference to explain what a "goth" was and why I changed.

	Incidentally, when I "changed" from normal, I did so very slowly, and
	surprisingly, I lived in a very "trendy" little town, so I had no
	influence from others and did not even realise exactly what a "Goth"
	was, it just felt "right" for me; both in view of my tastes, spiritual
	beliefs and interests, and also simply that the dress style suited
	me physically much more than the ordinary clothes I had before did, in
	that case you could say it was for my looks - but because I was 
	satisfied more with how I now looked, rather than for the satisfaction
	of any ulterior fashion motive. It was a long time before I even met
	another Goth, and then once Ihad found people who were similar in
	interest and temperament it was great!

	The above ideas explain, I believe, why everyone hates "teeny Goths",
	and also why "Goths" get a bad name perhaps, through such "teenies",
	and also maybe why Goth has faded - simply because those that are left
	are left for the *right* reasons, for themselves, not just to dress in
	a certain way...

	Someome replied to a "Goth" note in one of the conferences about a 
	person they knew who quizzed everyone as to what a "Goth" should look
	like and then over the next two weeks went out and bought the correct
	clothes!!! That's not what it's all about. I don't know why I changed,
	especially in view of my isolated upbringing, I changed slowly and
	subtly without making a "concious" effort, but it really felt "right"
	for me... this, is I believe what makes the difference on the whole...


	(Hope I don't sound like I'm preaching... but I despise "teenies" too
	 you know! We're not all like that {honest}	:-)    )

								- JIM CAD*

    Jim,
    
    You take this Goth thang far too seriously. I'd suggest a trip down 
    to the local British Legion disco, 97 pints of Watneys, a good ol
    dance around the handbags to either Bryan Adams or Roxette and wind
    the evening up with a fight with a bunch of moustache'd squaddies.
    
    Dwayne.
     

RE: -1


	:-)

								- JIM CAD*

   re: .27
    
    >> When I "changed" from normal......
    
    
  Are you abnormal Jim?
    
        Niall
    
    

That depends on whether you go by....


	general consensus....

	or personal perception!		:-)

As I said, *I* feel fine about my clothes, but the way the "Kevins" of the
world often react, it seems as if I am generally considered abnormal, again
because of my position in their perception of social classes and values...
which is why I get annoyed when people tell *me* why *I* dress like I do, it is
their perception which causes their diagnosis, surely! If they have been clouded
by the likes of "teeny Goths" I can see their point but they shouldn't label
me similarly!

	Like Brian said....

	"Don't judge others or you ... erm ... might be judged yourself!"

								- JIM CAD*

Orright Jim, for the benefit of foreign Kevins could you give us a brief
run-down of what you're wearing now?

green-shirted Rod

    Don't forget the Sharons as well.
     
    Niall
    

    You'll probably be disappointed, and wonder what all the fuss is about
    (like me!)...
    
    I'm wearing decidedly grey-looking 501s, CONS basketball boots (really
    Gothic huh?), old Sisters of Mercy T-Shirt and not to forget my baggy
    old black cardigan.
    
    These are my "work clothes" though	:-)
    
    I did wear PVC skintight jeans to work once and I usually wear my Goth
    boots a few times in the week too...
    
    								- JIM CAD*

Thank you for that information, but it's only half the story, isn't it?
C'mon, describe the full rig-out. Maybe not your own, but something that
would be considered typical. Include details of jewellery and make-up.

Not that I want to dress that way myself, you understand, but just for 
the benefit of the noting public.


Rod

Yeah come on, we could all do with a good laugh!

    Not that Rod minds what people think of his clothes, but he does look
    pretty unusual himself, especially when compared with the average French
    worker...
    
    Today he's sporting dark blue suede winkle-pickers, faded blue jeans,
    with a guitar strap worn as belt, white cashmere roll-neck sweater
    tucked into jeans, three earrings and a pony tail. I admire his nerve.
    
    Piers

    
    Sounds like a typical train spotter to me!

    or is that a typical "kevin"....
    
    kev

    Trainspotters wear annoraks such as the classic blue Parka affair 
    with the bit of fur around the hood. 

    Yeah, but they were rather naff clothes underneath!

    ... and thick black-rimmed glasses ...	:-)
    
    								- JIM CAD*
    
    BTW - I'll get back to you with a "typical Goth thread-set" ... going
          home soon!

Thank you Piers "flat-top and earring" Letcher very much, I don't think.
You know the pony-tail came off this morning.


Rod

    re.    <<< Note 946.43 by JURA::MACFADYEN "lights cast shadows too" >>>
    >      -< That was slander, that was. I never tuck my jersey in. >-
    
    No, that was libel.
    
    Piers
    

    
    So, come on Rod, tell us what Piers normally wears to work.

- A hat, like Bogey in 'Casablanca"
- flat-top haircut, though today even that looks like he's been dragged 
  through a hedge backward (he was at someone else's booze last night)
- round glasses styled after, so he says, henry miller (don't confuse with
  henry cow)
- interference pattern shirts
- long trousers (rarely shorts)
- winkle-picker shoes (true!)

I swear I am not making this up.

    
    Sounds like your typical ex-public school boy.

    re.         <<< Note 946.46 by RUTILE::MACFADYEN "Free radical" >>>

>- flat-top haircut, though today even that looks like he's been dragged 
>  through a hedge backward (he was at someone else's booze last night)
    
    It was my booze and I paid for it.
    
>- winkle-picker shoes (true!)
    
    I have never, ever worn those shoes to work.
    
    
    Just yer typical ex-public school boy.
    
    Piers

    Seems were getting a little bit personal here , eh ? (poor Piers)
    
    
    Niall
    

    Niall, 
    
    You can't use the word slag unless:
    
    1. Your name's Bob Hoskyns
    
    or
    
    2. You come from an East End background where the wearing of a stocking
       over one's head is all in the course of a days work.
    
    
    Barry. 
    

    
    Actually, both of those descriptions make me think of the question in .0's
    heading.
    
    -Tony

    RE: -1
    
    	:-)
    
    		(I didn't want to say it!)
    
    								- JIM CAD*

    Maybe we should start a new topic:
    
    "What We're Wearing Today, (and why)."
    
    
    
    -James

    Thanks folks just wait till I get MY opportunity !
    
       Niall