Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I'm not well enough informed to speak to this sort of thing in
    non-christian religions.  I'm not sure that this sort of thing is
    unheard of in the realm of christianity.  I believe the christian
    Shakers got their name from the shaking they did while in some sort of
    religious trance and/or dance (???).  When I attended a church service
    with my born again christian friend, I remember some people "speaking
    in tongues" (???) in the middle of the ceremony.  Others would just
    burst out with words of praise (in English), sometimes jumping out of
    their seats.  One sermon I recall was about dancing during service.  I
    believe the pastor pointed out biblical references to support the
    practice of dancing but only if it was in praise of God.  He warned
    that it should not be anything but that.  I did not witness any dancing
    during that service, but I expect that there was in services prior to
    this, thus the need to address it in the sermon that I heard. 
    
    Is "pentacostal" the appropriate adjective to use in describing this
    sort of behavior?
    
    I would not be surprized at all if you discovered that this sort of
    thing was found in all religions.
    
    
    -dave

    What about the "slaying in the spirit" where a spiritual leader touches
    someone, and they fall to the floor/ground in a trance-like state for
    several minutes?  Faith-healers, like Benny Hinn, have been known to
    line up several people, touch the first, and they all fall like
    dominoes.  Anything like this in Hinduism?
    
    How about "drunk in the spirit" where people act so intoxicated that
    they can barely stand or drive, even though no substances/drugs are
    consumed?

    I don't know about the "slaying in the spirit" in Hinduism.  I have
    heard that Buddhist monks can, through meditation, radically alter
    their vital signs.  And of course we've all heard stories about people 
    who under extreme stress sumon extrodinary physical strength.  
    
    Don't underestimate the dramatic effect a human mind can have over it's
    body.  People can be scared to death, literally!  Voicing subconscious
    thoughts and acting them out is common (talking in one's sleep and
    sleep walking).  Also, many reputable medical  professionals have
    written and are writting books on healing physical ailments using the
    mind-body connection.  
    
    The things you mentioned in .0, laughing, clucking, barking, fainting, 
    are things the average person are capable of doing.  Speaking in
    languages that one does not know, that sort of thing, is a whole
    different matter.
    
    The bottom line? If someone believes that being touched by Benny Hinn
    should make them faint, then I would not be surprized at all if that's
    exactly what they do when he touches them.  If he were to make a
    disbeliever like me faint with a touch, then it might be worth looking
    into a bit more.
    
    One last thing, I did talk to a priest once who witnessed a voodoo
    ceremony.  He said that some of the physical manifestations he saw were
    beyond belief and beyond what a normal person could do.  He described
    what he saw as being evil and demonic.  I had reason to believe that he
    would not lie to me or exaggerate the story.
    
    -dave

    I've seen some unconfirmed reports that state some of these things
    happen in eastern religions so that is why I asked.
    
    I'm not a cessationist.  I first experienced speaking in tongues over
    10 years ago, and I still experience it often.  However, there is
    Biblical precedent for tongues, but not for these other manifestations.
    Both my pastor and wife have experienced being "slain in the spirit" and 
    both advise against it for this very reason.  My pastor teaches against
    it.  The denomination I was involved in for 17 years greatly encouraged it.
    It's the same denomination where the movement is centered in Pensacola.
    
    Back in 1980, I attended a church in the central Mass. area where the
    minister would do things similar to what Benny Hinn does today:
    
    - line people up and watch them fall like dominoes after touching the
      first one.
    - touch them with his sportcoat and they would fall.
    - blow on them and they would fall.
    
    Everytime I got in line, I spoiled his party.  My friends would fall. 
    My father even fell.  I never fell.  When he finally accused me of being 
    rebellious, without proof, that was the last time I attended there.  To
    this day I praise God for saving me from this strangeness.
    
    The animal emulations are where people actually lose control of
    themselves and run around the churches barking, clucking, etc.  I've
    even seen video of people emulating a dog urinating in church!  Other
    acts which your priestly friend might have found hauntingly similar.

    In yoga traditions there is something called a "kriya".  A
    kriya is a physical/emotional/verbal "working through" of
    some spiritual blockage.  It is a cleansing.
    
    The Hindu model: you clean up your spiritual act, work through
    your karma, get clear and there's nothing between you and God.
    It is then that you "realize" you are an extention of God, without
    ego or agenda.  The ultimate "Your will, not mine."
    
    Well, while working through this karma (attachments) in an
    intense spiritual way, something sometimes pops up.  Shaking,
    noises (animal, etc.) sometimes occur during meditation.  At
    other times someone can start acting strangely (like a child
    acting out) in order to work out some emotional blockage.
    Kind of a learning experience.
    
    In some meditation circles, some members, errr, "encourage"
    these kriyas.  It can get to be quite the zoo.
    
    No.  I've never heard of someone doing something as inappropriate
    as urinating where they shouldn't.
    
    In some yoga traditions there is a guru.  The guru is one who
    has the spiritual power and authority to help and direct a 
    disciple on his spiritual path.  At one point the guru can
    impart an energy call "shaktipat" that starts to awaken the 
    "kundalini" at the base of one's spine.  The kundalini is a 
    spiritual force in all of us whose purpose is to purify us.  
    I believe it is likened to a snake.
    
    When shaktipat is received there is frequently a strong
    physical reaction.  Falling over is common, as is shaking.
    I have yet to see, nor am I likely to see since I stopped
    going, anything quite so theatrical as a row of people
    getting knocked over.  Shaktipat is an individual, personal
    transition.
        
    Shaktipat can be imparted many ways.  Most commonly through
    a touch, a look or through a dream.  Sometimes, I believe,
    it can be through breath.
    
    As the kundalini rises, it moves through the chakras, seven 
    energy centers aligned vertically from the base of your spine,
    to your pubis, gut, heart, throat, "middle eye" and the crown
    of your head, called the sahasra(?).
    
    On its way up, it forces situations that cause you to work out
    your hangups, your fears, your selfishness and opens the way
    for worship and love.  It is an intelligent force.
    
    When confronting these blockages a person may have to "over
    react", either in life or in mediation.  This is another
    description of a kriya.
    
    Well, there's more than you ever wanted to know about yoga :-)
        
    Tom
    

|    No.  I've never heard of someone doing something as inappropriate
|    as urinating where they shouldn't.
    
    actually they were just going through the motions (on 3 legs)

I seem to recall some pretty weird things done by people in the Bible.
Wasn't there some kind of frenzied group dancing done by prophets around
the time of Saul?  Wasn't it Jeremiah or some other prophet who exhibited
some strange behavior for several days while naked?

In the mid-1600's there was a pretty wild group called Ranters which came
and went.

I suspect there always have been some less bridled strains of Christian
worship.

I don't recall finding liturgical dance specifically mentioned in the Bible,
but I see nothing wrong with it.

I feel no compulsion to either attack or defend the present-day movements.
They have nothing to do with my own faith tradition.

Richard

    I was listening to the "Bible Answer Man" radio show a couple weeks ago
    when an ex-Wiccan, now Christian, called in to talk about Hank's latest 
    book.  Her name was Meg and she called from South Barre, MA.  Her mother 
    was a witch and raised her and her sister that way.  She became a 
    Christian as an adult, renouncing her past.  She claimed the "shaking" 
    going on in Pensacola is used by Wiccans in the exact same manner.  It is 
    something Wiccans go through whenever they need to achieve an altered 
    state of consciousness.  

    Well, I'm no Bible Answer Man, but the Wiccans I know are hardly
    dangerous, though it might be perceived that they're a part of a
    competing religion.
    
    As for shaking, there was once a society commonly known as Shakers.
    They called themselves the United Society <something something> Second
    Coming.  Their insistence on celibacy for all their members doubtlessly
    contributed to their eventual demise.
    
    Moreover, Quakers aren't called Quakers for nothing. ;-}
    
    Richard
    

RE: Shakers

>    Their insistence on celibacy for all their members doubtlessly
>    contributed to their eventual demise.

    I'd shake too if I had to maintain celibacy....

    Sabbath Day Lake in Maine still has a very small Shaker
    community.  I understand there are still some 5-7 members.

    Tom

    Wasn't uncontrollable raving of different sorts considered to ba a sign
    of demonic posession in Jesus' time?  Didn't he exorcise several who
    "sufferred" from this?  
    
    Is one man's shaking a form of worship while another's is a
    manifestation of posession?
    
    
    -dave
    

>    Is one man's shaking a form of worship while another's is a
>    manifestation of posession?

    Or simply perceived as being a manifestation of posession.

    The first time I witnessed epileptic convulsing it "appeared"
    demonic.

    It odd how we can label anything outside our realm of experience
    as evil.

    Tom

    Yes, I've read several authors who said that something like an
    epileptic event would be considered a sign of demonic posession in
    biblical times.  Physical ailment, physical handicaps and especially
    sterility were supposedly signs of being in disfavor with God.  Jesus
    sort of smashed those notions.
    
    In the same sermon I mentioned in .1, I also remember the minister
    talking about music.  He said that all music should be in praise of
    God, no exceptions.  He urged parents to shelter their children from
    music that did not meet this criteria.  I was thinking... "What about
    nursery rhymes and the Happy Birthday song?".  It seemed too extreme
    and far too impractical for people to follow.
    
    -dave
    

|    Wasn't uncontrollable raving of different sorts considered to ba a sign
|    of demonic posession in Jesus' time?  Didn't he exorcise several who
|    "sufferred" from this?  
    
    A most excellent thought, Dave.
    
|    Is one man's shaking a form of worship while another's is a
|    manifestation of posession?
    
    Who's to say they are different?

    Dave, Tom, how about the demoniac who lived in the cemetary, performed
    self-mutiliation, uncontrolled rage, shaking, as well as other
    manifestations?  You can't confuse this with epilepsy.  Marilyn Manson
    maybe, but not a physical ailment ;-)  Look at what it did to the herd
    of pigs.

    I guess it's important not to consider the epileptic as being evil
    simply because (s)he might behave in a way similar to the demoniac.
    Noting the behavior alone isn't enough to make a judgement.

Hmmm... a toxic dose of Deadly Nightshade will produce nearly 
those exact symptoms.

    I'm sorry, I don't know what Deadly Nightshade is.

>    I'm sorry, I don't know what Deadly Nightshade is.

    It's a plant.  Another name for it is Belladonna.  It's
    related to the tomato and potato plants.

    The name Belladonna comes from women who would take some
    of the juice and place it in their eyes to widen the pupils 
    and make them more attractive.  People in this state can't
    stand light.  It hurts too much.

    I don't know what else to say.  Don't eat it or you'll
    end up acting like that guy in the cemetary, or dead.
    And, yes, it can also produce convulsions.

    Tom

    I recognize Belladonna from the vocalist Stevie Nicks.  Rumor has it
    that she's involved in witchcraft too.  She lives a few miles from me.

    Belladonna is just a plant.  Witches may use it, but they
    also use automobiles.  That doesn't make cars evil.

    In homoepathic doses it cures earaches and some high fevers
    in children if it matches their symptoms (sensitive to light,
    somewhat out of it, *HATE* getting knocked, etc)

    Tom

|    Belladonna is just a plant.  Witches may use it, but they
|    also use automobiles.  That doesn't make cars evil.
    
    Agreed.

    Makes me wonder what's in the insense they used to burn up there on the
    alter in catholic services :-}
    
    

	incense.

	altar.

NNTTM.

    	Those who hear not the music think the dancers mad.