Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    A murderer of epic proportions.  
    
    jeff

    I have turned heads in another conference by inferring such a thing. 
    But Hitler was no doubt the most influencial man of the 20th century.  
    
    -Jack

    RE: .2 -Jack

    That is likely.  He wanted to see Germany strong, disciplined and
    repected in the world again.  He wanted to purge Germany and the
    world of what he saw as vermin, the jews, gypsies and blacks.  He
    wanted the world to be pure "again."

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  He did it for the
    people.

    I just wish he didn't do it on *this* planet.

    Tom

    |    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  He did it for the
    
    For the life of me, I can't imagine how someone can think Hitler's plan
    had good intentions.

    >But Hitler was no doubt the most influencial man of the 20th century.
    
    Agreed.  And what does that say about the value we place on the truely
    good people who also exist in the 20th century?  Why didn't Mother
    Theresa bubble to the top of that list?  Because she merely took care
    of orphans and failed to start something really spectacular like a
    world war?  Sad comentary indeed.
    
    As to the rest of it, we all agree that his sin was great, but how much
    does that matter?  If I understand the concept correctly, all men are
    in sin and require Christ to redeem them.  So if you've got a petty
    theif on one hand and Hitler on the other, both professed Christians,
    what does the magnitude of their sin matter?  As I asked in another
    string, where's the dividing line?  Does a petty thief get Jesus' help
    but not Hitler?  How about a rapist?  Would he squeek by or would he be
    doomed?  Maybe a 1-time murderer... if it was done in a fit of rage?  
    Is salvation a function of the magnitude of one's sin?  Does Jesus save
    all that say "Lord, Lord..."?
    
    -dave

	Mike, I took it that Hitler thought his intentions was good. I'm sure
Tom will clear it up, though.

>    For the life of me, I can't imagine how someone can think Hitler's plan
>    had good intentions.

    Did Hitler think that his beloved Germany would crushed?

    The German people must have thought he had good intentions or
    they wouldn't have voted for him.

    Sure, he expected at least a little personal glory, but what
    Germany needed at that time was a strong leader.  He provided
    that.  And thank God the rest of the world was able to stop him.

    Tom

    Since when is genocide considered a good intention?  Do the people have
    good intentions in Africa today with the tribal genocide happening as
    we note?

    Going to play devil's advocate a bit here, and before I start, I want to
    state that I'm NOT sympathetic to Hitler or his actions.
    
    What's the real difference between Hitler and many others who are
    locked up in maximum security prisons?  He had the means to implement
    his plans.  He had a huge army who fell prey to his brainwashing and he
    used it.  Given the same tools, how many of those prisoners I mentioned
    would do the same thing... or worse?  
    
    Didn't Jesus once say that if you think about adultery, that's as bad
    as committing the act?  How many skinheads are out there with real
    hatred in their hearts for blacks, Jews, etc... ?  For that reason, is
    not their sin just as bad as Hitler's?
    
    Was Hitler that unique?  Or was he just another bad man who happened to
    be in the right place and at the right time?
    
    (OK, here goes...)
    
    I believe Hitler truely loved his people... people of a certain race
    and heritage.  And he acted on their behalf to promote the wellbeing of
    his nation.  This included invading neighboring nations, killing it's
    citizens and taking their land.  Ring any bells?  If he was operating
    under God's direction, how would this differ from what we  read in
    Genesis?
    
    Now, reread the first sentence above before bashing me up too much.
    I'm just adding a little food for thought.
    
    -dave
    

    Mike
    
    >Since when is genocide considered a good intention?  Do the people have
    >good intentions in Africa today with the tribal genocide happening as
    >we note?
    
    Read all about Moses and the Middionites, Jehu and the Baalites, Soddom
    and Gommorrah, the origins of passover...... just for starters.

    Meg, that's all well and good, but try to stay on topic.  You're out of
    context.

Note 1331.8

>    Since when is genocide considered a good intention?  Do the people have
>    good intentions in Africa today with the tribal genocide happening as
>    we note?

I seem to recall a genocidal episode or two mentioned in the Bible.

Richard

>    Meg, that's all well and good, but try to stay on topic.  You're out of
>    context.

    It's *well* within context.  When discussing/condemning one nation's
    genocide it helps to have something to compare it to.

    The Israelites cleansed the lands of the Cannaanites.  Hitler tried
    to cleanse Germany of the Jews.

    The only difference between the two genocides is that only one 
    succeeded.

    I find genocide hideous.

    Tom

    Does anyone know the *exact* meaning of the word "Holocaust"?
    
    Richard
    

    >"Holocaust"
    
    A big fire.

    .15
    
    Close.  According to a speech I heard a couple of years back it
    literally means:
    
    "A burnt offering unto to Lord."
    
    
    Richard
    

 Z   Does a petty thief get Jesus' help
 Z   but not Hitler?  How about a rapist?  Would he squeek by or would
 Z   he be doomed?  Maybe a 1-time murderer... if it was done in a fit of
 Z   rage? Is salvation a function of the magnitude of one's sin? 
    
    To squeek by, as I read it below, would presume one can get saved on
    their own merit...which we have, or at least I have determined to be a
    false notion.  Also understand that Paul, Moses, and David were all
    murderers in their own right before being called by God's grace and
    mercy.
    
    As far as Hitler goes, I believe Hitler was a Paranoid Schitzophrenic. 
    One minute he is in utter euphoria and the next he is in a rage.  If he 
    suspected his life were in danger he would wipe out an entire community
    just to be sure he got the guilty person.  Mix this with his occultic
    practices and you have a reeeaaaaaaal problem on your
    hands...especially if you are charismatic enough to incite a decent
    society into an angry mob.  
    
    Re: the ancient genocides...I would be interested in your perspective
    as to how a banded group of nomads wandering the desert can go to a
    great fortified place like Jericho and summarily wipe out a nation of
    oversized warriors.  This should be real good.  Also, I notice the Megs
    of the world never speak of the Chaldeans and their hideous practices
    toward prisoners....or the Babylonians and their ruthless practices
    toward the Israelites.  No...always the big bad Hebrews without a place
    to rest their heads bullying against...(chuckle chuckle) the great
    idolatrous nations surrounding them like a pack of wolves. 
    
    -Jack

|    I find genocide hideous.

    Okay Tom, then explain how you think Hitler had "good intentions" since
    it is well documented that he planned on exterminating the Jews?

    It's obvious that Tom's and Adolph's ideas about what constitutes
    good intentions don't match.
    
    Richard
    

    Jack,
    
    I look at the ancient genocides as the same illness that we had with
    Hitler, and with what is going on in Zaire, Burundi, the former
    yugoslav states......  
    
    Personally I don't think god(dess) had anything to do with it, or if
    (s)he  did it was some sort of schizophrenic thing I certainly don't
    understand.

    btw - Several aspects of the Yom HaShoah (Holocaust), including Hitler's 
    name are prophesied in the Torah codes.

    I believe you're right about Hitler's mental problems.  It was noticed
    by some of his generals who tried to assasinate him. Some who knew him 
    up to the end claimed that he wass still talking about world domination 
    while over 30 miles of hub-to-hub Russian armor encircled Berlin.  A
    little personal Holocaust the Russians were arranging in Hitler's
    honor.
    
    The part about "squeeking by" was meant to ask if Jesus judges those
    who accept them on the basis of their actions, or, if he
    unconditionally accepts all who claim him to be their savior.  If he
    accepts all, and if Hitler accepted him, then Hitler would be saved,
    regardless of his actions.  True?  If there is a heaven/hell, and if
    what I just stated is true, then would one expect Hitler to be in
    heaven... peering down in Gandhi in the flames?  The world is upside
    down I think.
    
    The part about equating Hitler/Germany to some OT stories about what
    the Hebrews did was to illustrate why it is so difficult to accept much
    of the OT as the will of God.  Like Hitler and his Nazis, some of the 
    ancient Hebrew maurauding was obviously wrong.  A non-inerrant
    interpretation seems much more believable to me that forcing God in a
    role which appears to be so hypocritical.  If Hitler was wrong, then 
    so were the ancient Hebrews and these stories have to be taken with a
    grain of salt (or two).  If God condoned the killing of even one man,
    then he'd be asking man to violate one of his own commandments and those
    spoken of and lived later by Jesus.  It doesn't take an act of genocide
    to see the hypocricy surface. (IMO)                      
    
    -dave

 Z   Personally I don't think god(dess) had anything to do with it, or if
 Z   (s)he  did it was some sort of schizophrenic thing I certainly
 Z   don't understand.
    
    Meg, you bring up an interesting dichotomy here.  If all things are
    from God, then it stands to reason that bad things are allowed to
    happen by God.  This contradicts your view of God.  
    
    My somewhat cynical response was to make a point....that being the
    historical account of the genocide of Jericho had to have come from
    God.  From a military standpoint, the Hebrews had nothing but faith to
    go by, since they were completely outnumbered, outsized, and militarily 
    inferior.  The Canaanites knew what they were up against because they
    KNEW this was the nomad nation that crossed the Red Sea by the
    direction of their God....wiping out the Egyptian army.  
    
    Also important to note even in the most hideous examples of biblical
    history comes a gem.  One of the very few survivors, Rahab the harlot,
    was Ruth's grandmother.  Ruth is the great grandmother of King David
    who is the family lineage of Jesus Christ.  This is what makes Jesus' 
    family history quite interesting.  His forbearers were from Pagan
    nations and were into idolatry and harlotry.  And all because she spied
    against her own people to the puny Israelites!!!
    
    -Jack

    RE: .18

>|    I find genocide hideous.
>
>    Okay Tom, then explain how you think Hitler had "good intentions" since
>    it is well documented that he planned on exterminating the Jews?

    Say "please."  :-)

    Hitler put together a world view in which most evil came from
    the Jewish race.  In their view, to exterminate this race would
    rid the world of their degrading influence.

    Apparently, it made sense to enough people at the time.

    I disagree.

    Tom

    Yet one of his Grandparents was Jewish and he was actually born in
    Austria, no?!

>    Yet one of his Grandparents was Jewish and he was actually born in
>    Austria, no?!

    Odd.  He also wasn't tall, or blond, nor blue eyed. (I believe)

    Obviously, you don't have to make sense to drive a country or
    even a continent into the ground.

    Tom

|    Hitler put together a world view in which most evil came from
|    the Jewish race.  In their view, to exterminate this race would
|    rid the world of their degrading influence.
|
|    Apparently, it made sense to enough people at the time.
|
|    I disagree.
    
    okay, but that still doesn't explain why you explicitly stated "good
    intentions."
    

>    okay, but that still doesn't explain why you explicitly stated "good
>    intentions."

    "Good" is subjective.

    It was "good" that the Packers won the Super Bowl, if you live
    in Green Bay.  :-)

    I'm sure that many of the people in 16th century Spain thought
    that the Inquisition was good - purifying the country for the
    Catholic Church.

    Prayer in schools.

    Right to choose/Right to life.

    The Watergate investigation.  The Whitewater investigation.

    Well, have I made my point? :*)

    Tom

|    Well, have I made my point? :*)
    
    Yes, but it isn't a good one.  *YOU* explicitly said it was "good
    intentions" and then said you disagreed with it.

>    Yes, but it isn't a good one.  *YOU* explicitly said it was "good
>    intentions" and then said you disagreed with it.

In *his* mind and in the mind of the German people they were 
considered "good".

I don't think anyone else here read it the way you did.

Of course I disagree that they were "good".

What's your problem?

Tom

    WHAT do you mean what's my problem....I don't have a problem.....I'm
    from Joisy.....I'm stable!!!!!

| <<< Note 1331.29 by PHXSS1::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>

| Yes, but it isn't a good one.  *YOU* explicitly said it was "good
| intentions" and then said you disagreed with it.

	As was mentioned way back in note .6 all the way up to this one, Tom
was talking about what Hitler believed. Now take that thought and process it so
we can get out of this rathole.


Glen

    Tom, I still can't comprehend any significant number of people agreeing
    with Hitler.  I think it was mostly him that thought it was good and he
    happened to brainwash a few influential followers.  
    
    This notion of "good intentions" hits too close to home, and everything
    I've been taught says much of Germany wasn't all that impressed with
    Hitler's plan.  Look at all of his own people that he had executed.  I 
    have several family members that escaped on trains out of Germany during 
    Hitler's reign.  Some of them didn't escape.  Some we thought escaped but 
    have never been heard from since.  Most of my father's family is
    feared dead because of Hitler.

	Mike.... did Hitler reveal his plan all at once, or did he slowly lure
people in over several years? This might very well answer your questions from
your last note.

.33

>    Tom, I still can't comprehend any significant number of people agreeing
>    with Hitler.  I think it was mostly him that thought it was good and he
>    happened to brainwash a few influential followers.  

It *is* difficult to comprehend.  It's difficult for the German people
even today in the face of photographic evidence to the contrary currently
on exhibit in Berlin.  The myth that made it all bearable was that a few
SS elite were responsible for the atrocities.  The regular army supposedly
had clean hands.  Not so.  Not so.

Neo-Nazis are protesting the exhibition.

>    This notion of "good intentions" hits too close to home,....I 
>    have several family members that escaped on trains out of Germany during 
>    Hitler's reign.  Some of them didn't escape.  Some we thought escaped but 
>    have never been heard from since.  Most of my father's family is
>    feared dead because of Hitler.

I can understand your feelings.

I don't think Tom is your enemy.

Richard

>    Tom, I still can't comprehend any significant number of people agreeing
>    with Hitler.  I think it was mostly him that thought it was good and he
>    happened to brainwash a few influential followers.  

    Well, apparently, enough people did.
    
>    This notion of "good intentions" hits too close to home, and everything
>    I've been taught says much of Germany wasn't all that impressed with
>    Hitler's plan.  Look at all of his own people that he had executed.  I 
>    have several family members that escaped on trains out of Germany during 
>    Hitler's reign.  Some of them didn't escape.  Some we thought escaped but 
>    have never been heard from since.  Most of my father's family is
>    feared dead because of Hitler.

    I'm sorry.  I never meant to imply I agreed or sympathised
    with the Nazis.  I believe they thought they were doing good.
    We now know better.  Evil so often has a "wholesome" face
    painted on it.

    I look at Nazi Germany and I see a nation all pumped up and
    psyched.  The old Firesign Theater quote comes to mind:
    "Show them a light, and they'll follow it anywhere."

    I'm fond of saying "It can't happen again" with tongue firmly
    implanted in my cheek.

    I believe Germany saw itself as a victum of WW One.  Germany was
    crushed into the ground.  People thought that *anything* was better
    than that and sought change.  Well, they got it.
    
    For a while there, though, things were pretty good for the general
    German population.  Even if Hitler was a bit excessive, the men 
    had jobs, the "undesirable" population (jews, gypsies, other foreigners)
    were on the run and Germany was once again a proud nation.  They
    even had the Olympics there.  The "common" "man" could excuse a
    lot.   But if you weren't the right race or religion, you were
    pretty much in deep doo doo.
    
    Do it for Germany.  Do it for German women.  Do it for the 
    children.  They could justify *anything* and did.
    
    What Germany and the Nazis did was out and out *bad*.  The best
    we can do is heal, figure out what happened and do our best to
    ensure it doesn't happen again.
    
    Unfortunately, I see too many parallels in this society.  The
    "zero drug tolerance", the dirty pictures on the Internet 
    ruckus.  Isolated, they seem like good things.  Together they
    amount to a controlled society.  The sidewalks are clean and
    the trains run on time....
    
    Tom

    >Unfortunately, I see too many parallels in this society.

    Yes.  When a policy relieves pain and suffering close to home, one
    tends to rationalize away any pain, sufferring... even genocide endured
    by others as a result of that policy.  Impossible?  Can you think of a
    policy like that being practiced here in the States today?  I'm
    th9nking of one in particular and it takes the form of genocide.  Can you
    list all the rationalizations used to justify the policy?
    
    

    |    >Unfortunately, I see too many parallels in this society.
    
    pornography, infanticide, genocide, homicide, suicide.

	Mike, I'm curious if you now realize that Tom wasn't thinking what
Hitler did was out of good intentions.....

    Yes Glen, we all realize this thank you.
    
    Hitler had enough charisma to incite a mob.  Most of the common
    citizenry acquiesced out of fear of reprisal.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1331.40 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| Yes Glen, we all realize this thank you.

	It didn't seem as though Mike did, Jack.

    RE .40 (Jack)

    >Most of the common citizenry acquiesced out of fear of reprisal.

    I've heard different from someone who lived there/then. He said that
    Hitler was loved by the vast majority of the people, including himself. 
    They believed him and they believed in him.  The scary part is that
    these people were no more evil than you or I.  Put in the same
    situation, I wonder how many of us would do the same thing.  I fear
    that most of us would fall into the same trap.  In an earlier reply, I
    pointed out how we, as a population, are currently accepting something
    which is likely to be tantamount to genocide, no different than what
    went on in Germany in the 30's/40's.  We rationalize it away, calling
    it a matter  of choice, etc... .  One relevant biblical passage I can
    think of it "Remove the beam..."

    -dave

    There were some people who contributed to saving lives as best they
    could during the Holocaust. Maybe some of you are familiar with Corrie 
    Ten Boom and her family; Schindler's List has made all of us aware of
    Mr. Schindler. There is a web site that has the stories of a few ordinary 
    people who did what they could to rescue at least one person, some more, 
    and the corresponding stories of some of the people whose lives were saved
    by what they did. There are photos along with the stories. Its a really
    great web site, though I am moved to tears each time I read one of the
    accounts. The site is:

              http://www.humboldt.edu:80/~rescuers/index.html

    Leslie

    Just as an FYI, the Holocaust is airing on the Family Channel at 11:00
    PM this week.
    
    Dave, your entry was quite sobering.  It just goes to show that anybody
    with enough charisma can incite a mob!
    
    -Jack

    I suspect, as replusive as it might sound, the horror that is Hitler
    hides deep within the recesses of every one of us.
    
    Richard
    

    .45
    
      What a surprise, almost takes a rocket scientist to see it. But
    unlike the touchy/feely new age crowd who believe we are all in-
    herently pure and poifekt as the fallen snow, mankind is fallen
    but not like snow; you , me , villhelm gates, the pope, klintoon
    etc, etc, each and every one a possible hitler, anti-christ or
    whatever you wish to call it. It just akes the right/wrong herd
    spiritual mindset and timing. Only in my opinion, we are overripe
    and falling off the tree rotting "ready" for yet another butcher
    of humanity. And i would hazard a guess at the vast majority would
    not even have a clue it was coming or in their very faces.
    
      Have a swell 
    
      ray

    We also have the potential to rise above/transcend this stuff
    and live in communion with one another and God.

    Many people have created and lived in hell.  We can learn from
    their mistakes.

    Tom

| <<< Note 1331.47 by THOLIN::TBAKER "Flawed To Perfection" >>>

| We also have the potential to rise above/transcend this stuff
| and live in communion with one another and God.

	I couldn't agree with you more, Tom. 

| Many people have created and lived in hell.  

	Hell can be so relative. It can just mean a miserable life for
themselves, or it could mean miserable for others, as well. And then add in the
amount of people and all the different levels of how bad it can be and wow...
it is mind boggling. Hitler is definitely one extreme, but I really think Hell
is there at so many different levels, as well.

    Glen, are you referring to "hell on earth" or are you referring to what
    is believed as the spiritual realm reserved for the devil and his
    angels?
    
    Just curious.  
    
    -Jack

|    I suspect, as replusive as it might sound, the horror that is Hitler
|    hides deep within the recesses of every one of us.
    
    Agreed 100%.  The first mention of mankind's heart in the Bible
    (Genesis 6) is associated with evil.  Jesus Christ confirmed it.  This
    proves the nature of man and our need for a Redeemer.  It also really
    goes against the popular beliefs of today.

Matthew 7:11  
    If ye then, BEING EVIL, know how to give good gifts unto your children,
 how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them
 that ask him?

Matthew 12:34  
    O generation of vipers, how can ye, BEING EVIL, speak good things? for
 out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    Mike, it is also interesting that Adam was made in the image of God,
    but Cain and Abel were made in the image of Adam.  The perpetuation of
    evil throughout mankind!
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1331.49 by ASGMKA::MARTIN "Concerto in 66 Movements" >>>

| Glen, are you referring to "hell on earth" or are you referring to what
| is believed as the spiritual realm reserved for the devil and his angels?

	Hell is like a box of chocolates.... :-)

	I think Hell on earth isn't as bad as the place Satan has. But it
doesn't mean at the time it seems pretty bad. So while I am talking about Hell
on earth, that is all we have to go on as we have never been to Hell and back.
Just Hell-like places, situations, etc.

Note 1331.46

>                            -< so what else is new >-

Not much.  What's new with you, Ray?

I'm afraid I am a touchy-feely kind of guy.  I think humanity has enough
brains.  Not quite enough heart, as I see it anyway.

>      Have a swell 
    
Right back atcha!

Richard