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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

1321.0. "Nostradamus" by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE (Mirthful Mystic) Mon Jan 20 1997 22:03

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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1321.1PHXSS1::HEISERR.I.O.T.Tue Jan 21 1997 13:501
1321.2MKOTS3::JMARTINEbonics Is Not ApplyTue Jan 21 1997 13:536
1321.3SMARTT::DGAUTHIERTue Jan 21 1997 15:5527
1321.4PHXSS1::HEISERR.I.O.T.Tue Jan 21 1997 15:584
1321.5MKOTS3::JMARTINEbonics Is Not ApplyTue Jan 21 1997 16:474
1321.6CSC32::J_CHRISTIEMirthful MysticTue Jan 21 1997 21:0510
1321.7SMARTT::DGAUTHIERWed Jan 22 1997 12:3828
1321.8GRIM::MESSENGERBob MessengerWed Jan 22 1997 14:2910
1321.9PHXSS1::HEISERR.I.O.T.Wed Jan 22 1997 14:571
1321.10CSC32::J_CHRISTIEMirthful MysticWed Jan 22 1997 15:026
1321.11AltaVista says it occurs about 20,000 times! :-}LGP30::FLEISCHERwithout vision the people perish (DTN 381-0426 ZKO1-1)Wed Jan 22 1997 16:0710
1321.12MKOTS3::JMARTINEbonics Is Not ApplyWed Jan 22 1997 17:093
1321.13SMARTT::DGAUTHIERWed Jan 22 1997 18:534
1321.14CSC32::J_CHRISTIEMirthful MysticFri Jan 24 1997 15:265
    It really wouldn't surprise me to learn that Nostradamus was very
    familiar with the Revelation to John.
    
    Richard
    
1321.15CSC32::J_CHRISTIEMirthful MysticFri Jan 24 1997 15:3210
I've noticed that each generation attempts to apply the prophecies
of the Revelation and of Nostradamus within the framework of their
own history and time, to make the prophecies urgent and immanent.

There's a bus stop bench in town that bears this message:  Revelation
is being fulfilled now.  Could it not have been as accurate in any other
time?

Richard

1321.16The End TimesPHXSS1::HEISERR.I.O.T.Fri Jan 24 1997 15:37228
|There's a bus stop bench in town that bears this message:  Revelation
|is being fulfilled now.  Could it not have been as accurate in any other
|time?
    
    not even close.
    
We're seeing the beginning of birthpangs - Matthew 24:8

Magog Positioned
----------------
Ezekiel 38-39 is famous in that God intervenes on behalf of Israel and it
portrays the use of nuclear weapons.  It is moving fast upon the horizon.
"Magog" was identified by ancient writers including Hesiod (7th century BC) and
Herodotus (5th century BC) as the Scythians.  These are the ancestors of today's
Russia.  "Persia", the ally of Magog is today's Iran.

Russia is currently sandwiched between the its traditional enemies.
German-dominated EUC to the west and Japan and China to the east.  Russia is
forced to form a new power base to the south.  Russia's perceived destiny is
with the world of Islam, focusing on the radicals: Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Libya.

Yeltsin is being pressured from the forces that came to his rescue in last
October's power struggle: foreign ministers, oil and gas industry, intelligence
community, and the military-industrial complex.

Moscow also needs the hard currency from the arms trade.  Russia is trying to
become the biggest arms supplier to Third World Countries.  They have the
technology and capacity to produce first-rate weapons at competitive prices.
Their first quarter sales of 1993 exceeded all of 1992's sales.  Remember the
Magog of Ezekiel 38 is not only the leader in the invasion, but also the
supplier of weapons (Ezekiel 38:7).

Rafsanjani of Iran has purchased $2.2B of combat aircraft and spares from
Russia, including at least 12 TU-22's.  From Iranian Air Forces bases near
Tehran, the 1,370 mile range TU-22-M3 bombers can reach Istanbul, Tel Aviv,
Cairo, and the waters of the Persian Gulf, and the whole of Saudi Arabia and
Pakistan, putting any target in the Middle East at risk.

In Yeltsin's recent duel with Parliament, the Army came to his rescue and turned
the tide.  The 4 elite divisions sealed the fate of the Parliament coup.  The
cost to Yeltsin is that the Army is clearly in control and is more indispensable
than ever.  There are presently 30 border conflicts in the former USSR.  Over
the last 18 months, from Moldava to Tajikistan, military force has proved
effective and commonplace.  Those who wield the force have the clout in
strategic councils.  The checks and balances of democratic political control are
entirely absent.  All of the top people are old-school Soviet security
personnel.  They regard the current political framework as simply transient
circumstances.  Russian security services detained 90,000 people and expelled
10,000 more from Moscow.  Yeltsin shut down 15 opposition newspapers and 1
hostile TV show.  Yeltsin's previously announced elections next June are being
"reconsidered."  11 of 15 former USSR republics have experienced forcible
changes and now have former Communists in power.  Intelligence reports state
that most of these were orchestrated by Moscow.  On Russia's southern rim, the
Caucasus region is currently torn by bloody conflicts.  All of these conflicts
mix elements of nationalism and Islam.

Bottomline: the West, particularly this country's administration, is being sold
a bill of goods about democracy in Russia.

Moscow-Tehran Connection
------------------------
The lead ally of Magog in Ezekiel 38 is Persia, which is modern-day Iran
(Ezekiel 38:5).  Russia fears a fundamentalist Islamic uprising throughout
former Soviet Central Asia and in the Russian Federation itself.  The Central
Asian republics are a key factor with 60M Muslims presently spread across 5
independent states.  This appears to be solved with the agreement between
Russia's Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev and Iran's President Rafsanjani.
Kozyrev even traveled to Tehran with Moscow's own senior Muslim cleric to
emphasize Russia's own Islamic credentials.

Russian needs Iran's restraint in Central Asia and the price is supporting
Tehran's more important ambitions elsewhere: Persian Gulf, Red Sea, and of
course Israel.  It is suspected that the Islamic commitments could well prove to
be the "hooks in the jaw" that will draw Russia into the ill-fated Magog
Invasion of Israel (Ezekiel 38:4).  

Iran's Arms Buildup
-------------------
Iran is the current emerging and most radical Middle Eastern power.  Rafsanjani
has announced his ambitions in his "Grand Design."  He plans to unite the entire
Muslim world into an Islamic Crescent from Indonesia in the Pacific to
Mauritania in the Atlantic.  He announced that they now have the resources (both
cash and weapons) to finally disconnect the Middle East from the traditional
Judeo-Christian order of the West.

Iran's purchase of 7 nuclear warheads from Kurchitov (nuclear stockpile near
Moscow) and from Simipolatinski (ICBM base in Kazakhstan) was reported earlier
this year.  These warheads have a shelf-life of 7 years and already 2 years
old.  Moscow's nuclear cooperation with Iran now also includes supplying 2
nuclear power plants, training nuclear technicians, and establishing nuclear
research facility in Isfahan.  The U.S. has been trying to stop all of this but
with no success.

Iran's military positioning includes a naval focus on 2 strategic objectives:
the Red Sea (where 25K ships pass per year) and the Strait of Hormuz in the
Persian Gulf (which passes 25% of the world's oil).  The Iranian Port Sudan
access, along with the annexation of Abu Musa island in the Persian Gulf (and
its control of the entrance through the Strait of Hormuz) has also put more
significance on Iran's recent acquisition of the 5 Russian Kilo-Class
submarines.  These submarines were in addition to the recent purchase from
Russian of $2.2B of additional aircraft and spares (for those 115 aircraft that
fled to Iran during the Persian Gulf war last year).  Iran has spent $14B
upgrading its air forces in the past 3 years.

Saudi Arabia
------------
In Ezekiel 38:13 "Sheba & Dedan" are modern-day Saudi Arabia.  They're nervously
on the sidelines, neither participating in nor interfering with the intended
plunder of Israel.  The current turn of events is quite threatening to them.
Especially with the increasing Iranian naval forces.  Rafsanjani has been
training his operational forces for amphibious operations under conditions of
contamination.  He doesn't need to do this to invade Israel.  This implies that
an Arabian invasion is part of his ultimate strategy.  No wonder Saudi Arabia is
nervous.

Rise of Islam
-------------
Meanwhile, Islamic militantcy is growing strong in the Middle East.  Preying
upon people's contempt for corrupt government, widespread unemployment, and
poverty, Muslim extremists are increasing their hold from Algiers to Amman, from
Beirut to Aswan.  These are highly educated, deeply religious, determined
people.  Their goal is domination of the region, by the sword if necessary.
Syria, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, and Afghanistan have now formed a strategic alliance,
now with Magog backing.  The curtailing, and eventual expulsion of, Western
influence in the Middle East is the key goal, and of course, the destruction of
Israel.

United States
-------------
The decline of the U.S. has become increasingly apparent to all sophisticated
observers.  Even without the disastrous policies of the current administration,
our economic (and moral) decay appears irreversible.  The question remains for
each of us, what do we do about it?  If lavish spending and increased taxation
could save a crumbling economy, the Rome would still be ruling the world.  And
it appears to be getting a second chance!

An Empire Re-emerges
--------------------
For centuries, Biblical scholars have been expecting a revived Roman Empire
(Daniel 2, 7; Revelation 13).  This major theme of Biblical prophecy has been
approaching like a glacier for decades and now has taken a major turn with the
signing of the Maastricht Agreement this year.  It still needs a strong leader.
One is coming and is probably alive today.

Israel "Peace" Accord
---------------------
The Arab-Israel conflict is not about borders, although the Islamic propaganda
continues to so influence the media.  It is the *existence* of Israel, not the
size of Israel, that is the crux of the matter.  Territorial concessions by
Israel will not end the conflict.  In fact, any territorial concessions are
destabilizing and will deny Israel the use of conventional responses and force a
nuclear response.  And it will do nothing to discourage further Muslim
incursions and intrigues.  In the next Middle East war, *both sides* will have
nuclear weapons (I Thessalonians 5:3).  There are many who believe that the
weapons that will be used in the famed Battle of Armageddon are already in
inventory.

Ezekiel 38 describes the only battle in all of the Bible, where the Holy Spirit
inspires to write about the post-war cleanup efforts.  The battle descriptions
and cleanup precautions pretty much describe the use of nuclear weapons.  In
addition, when the USA and USSR were legitimate global superpowers they were the
only ones with nuclear capability.  They kept global order by virtue of their
cold war relationship.  Now you have 22 countries with nuclear capability, half
of which violently hates the other half.  Also, the global superpowers are no
longer there to keep international order.

The Temple
----------
The preparations to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem are, of course, some of the
most provocative elements of Biblical prophecy.  3 times in the New Testament,
it is alluded to (Jesus - Matthew 24:15, Paul - II Thessalonians 2:4, John -
Revelation 11:1-2) and this continues to be an area closely watched by all.  The
real obstacle is, of course, not archaeological, but political.  The Muslim WAQF
controls the Temple Mount since Moshe Dayan yielded it to them and they have
become ever more belligerent and obstructionist towards further studies of the
Mount.  Any serious undertakings on the Temple Mount await a drastic change in
the political situation.  Some believe a leadership will emerge that has
acceptability to both the Muslim and Jewish interests.  We can only watch and
see.  It is interesting to observe all the world events continue to focus on
Jerusalem, just as Zechariah predicted (Zech. 12:2-3).

Babylon Re-emerges
------------------
The numerous allusions to both historical and prophetic Babylon throughout both
the Old and New Testaments (Isaiah 13, 14; Jeremiah 50, 51; Revelation 17, 18)
has fascinated Biblical observers for centuries.  The destruction predicted in
the Bible has never taken place.  That implies that Babylon has yet to
experience that specific destruction, which, in turn, implies that it must
re-emerge in world history.  And it has already begun.  Saddam Hussein has
spent the past 20 years rebuilding Babylon on its original foundations.

Summary
-------
Magog is increasingly being positioned for the battle of Ezekiel 38.  Inside
intelligence indicates that it could happen at any time.

There is now a "Peace" Accord with Israel.

The USA (conspicuously absent in the final Biblical scenes) is propelling itself
toward oblivion, due to ignorance of the electorate, the arrogance of the
leadership, and the deliberate conspiratorial agenda of the global socialists.
The rapid decay of moral values, and the resulting economic decline, appear
irreversible within any reasonable time span.

Maastricht has accelerated Europe toward a global union.  The long sought-after
"Revived Roman Empire" doesn't appear to be quaint any more.

All this is in the context of Babylon, being rebuilt on the banks of the
Euphrates, and preparations for rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem.

Biblical scholars have been dreaming of these very days for centuries!  And
these events are accelerating faster than one can take them in.  The idea seems
preposterous: that history has been revealed in advance and that the world is
heading toward a dramatic climax.  And yet, it is undeniably evident as we watch
global events from a Biblical perspective.

The "End Times"?
----------------
Hasn't every generation felt that theirs was the "End Times"?  But no previous
generation has any of the specific requirements.  Israel had not been restored
to the Land.  They were not in control of Biblical Jerusalem (the Old City).
There has been no Temple to fulfill what Jesus, Paul, and John predicted.
Babylon was in ruins.  Europe has been in separated pieces, remnants of the
breakup of the old Roman Empire.  Now it isn't just one of these: it's *ALL* of
them!  Every element of the classic, centuries old, prophetic scenario is now
moving into place.  With increasing velocity.  The more one knows about the
Biblical scenario, the more obvious it becomes.  The real question is, what
should we do about it?
1321.17CNTROL::DGAUTHIERFri Jan 24 1997 16:5718
    >Could it not have been as accurate in any other time?

    It's accurate all of the time given how loosely one interprets the
    current events of the time.  I'm reminded of an adage called Sprole's
    Law...

      "If there is an opinion, facts will be found to support it"

    It's like drawing a picture using the "connect the dots" method in
    reverse.  You start with a paper filled with dots.  Then you draw
    the picture, paying no attention to the dots.  That done, you identify
    all the dots you happen to pass through in the drawing.  Voila!  Look at
    the large body of dots (facts) that suppport the drawing (prophecy).
    
    This method works for anything you want to draw if the paper is
    sufficiently prepopulated with dots.
    

1321.18dots are usTHOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionFri Jan 24 1997 17:1412
    RE: .16

    So, what should we do?  Arm Iraq or arm Iran?

    The only person an Iranian hates more than an "infidel" is
    a Sunni muslim.  I see the muslim world uniting as much as
    I see the Catholics uniting with Jerry Falwell, the Unitarians
    uniting with the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Irish Catholics uniting
    with the Ulster protestants, cats lying with... sorry,
    wrong scenario.  :*)

    Tom
1321.19PHXSS1::HEISERR.I.O.T.Fri Jan 24 1997 17:423
    The current status of the Israel "peace" accord is a perfect example of
    the Muslim countries uniting for a common cause.  There is even an
    attraction from Muslims to Catholics because of the Fatima connection.
1321.20SMARTT::DGAUTHIERFri Jan 24 1997 18:119
    re .18
    
    >I see the muslim world uniting as much as
    >    I see the Catholics uniting with Jerry Falwell,...
    
    Those are dots on the paper that didn't happen to be drawn over in the
    apocalyptic picture.  How dare you mention these Tom.  You're spoiling
    the whole thing!
    
1321.21MKOTS3::JMARTINEbonics Is Not ApplyFri Jan 24 1997 18:368
    I don't see nuclear proliferation as a sign of the end times.  I am
    somewhat convinced that the great judgements which will be facing the
    world will be supernatural as opposed to manmade destruction.
    
    I don't believe humans will be able to sidestep the fact that the bowl
    judgements are from God.  They will know and blaspheme God even more.  
    
    -Jack
1321.22CSC32::J_CHRISTIEMirthful MysticSat Jan 25 1997 00:3610
RE: .18

>    So, what should we do?  Arm Iraq or arm Iran?

It seems to me that the US has already tried this.  The notion of stabilizing
the nations by creating a balance of terror or tipping it to disfavor an enemy
doesn't work as well in reality as it seems like it should on paper.

Richard

1321.23NWD002::RANDALL_DOFri Feb 07 1997 14:489
    The original question was whether Nostradamus was a genuine prophet. 
    In the Bible, the test was pretty straightforward.  Did what the
    prophet prophesied actually happen.  With Nostradamus, it's hard to
    tell, because the statements are not clear.  
    
    Btw, the punishment for false (non-genuine) prophets was to be stoned
    to death.  Wonder if he (or other current "prophets") would sign up for
    that rigorous an outcome?
    
1321.24CSC32::J_CHRISTIEMirthful MysticFri Feb 07 1997 16:0920
.23

>    The original question was whether Nostradamus was a genuine prophet. 
>    In the Bible, the test was pretty straightforward.  Did what the
>    prophet prophesied actually happen.  With Nostradamus, it's hard to
>    tell, because the statements are not clear.  

There are those in this very conference who'll tell you that the whole of
Isaiah has yet to come to pass.  So, too, the Revelation to John.  Would this
make the authors of these works less than prophets?
    
>    Btw, the punishment for false (non-genuine) prophets was to be stoned
>    to death.  Wonder if he (or other current "prophets") would sign up for
>    that rigorous an outcome?

It seems they nailed a few genuine prophets along with the false ones.
Oh well.

Richard