Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

re .8

;    To me eternal life is the opposite of eternal death.  That being
;    eternal life is coexistance with God whereas eternal death...or the
;    second death as it is stated in scripture is an existance seperated
;    from God.

	Jack,

	The Psalmist said of Jehovah God, "For with you is the source of
	life" Psalms 36:9a, so my question to you is how can one continue
	to exist completely separated from the One that gives and sustains 
	life?.

	My own understanding is one can't as brought out in the famous
	verse of John 3:16 RSV "For God loved the world that he sent his
	only Son, that whoever believes in him should not *perish* but
	have eternal life." To perish, has a meaning of to be destroyed.

	These scriptures need to be taken into account when looking at
	the symbolic "Lake of fire" which the Bible identifies as meaning
	the second death (compare Revelation 20:14).

	Phil.

    Phil:
    
    Remember God's words..."For of the day you partake of the fruit, you
    shall surely die."  Having been born into sin, I was born seperated
    from God.  So to put it succinctly, we are as a created being already
    seperated from the giver and the sustainer...so it can be done...it is
    not an impossibility.  Adam and Eve did in fact die that day.  They
    died a spiritual death and became seperated from their creator. 
    Justification before a Holy God can come only through the resurrection
    of Christ.
    
    Any semblance of comfort and peace comes strictly by God's
    grace...nothing more.  An unregenerated world exists today...out of
    fellowship with God and at enmity with the Spirit of the Most High.
    I believe that all flesh would be destroyed today were it not for God's
    longsuffering with us.
    
    Hell was a place prepared for the devil and his angels, as Jesus stated
    in one of his parables.  There is a seperation between the lambs and
    the goats...and the goats share the same judgement as the heavenly
    beings who rebelled against God.  I see no reason to believe there is
    not an eternal hellfire....since it is a concept blended throughout
    scripture.
    
    -Jack  

re .37

  Jack,

  Though I agree Adam and Eve were separated in a spiritual sense, they
  were not totally separated from God. They still needed Jehovah to sustain
  them, eventhough Adam was to work for food. You no doubt thank God for
  the material things he gives you so that you can enjoy life, so we cant
  be completely separte. My question, is based on the the reasoning how can 
  one exist, completely separate from God the source and sustainer of life. 

; Hell was a place prepared for the devil and his angels, as Jesus stated
; in one of his parables.

  Where does the Bible say that hell , that is Hades or Sheol was a place
  prepared for the Devil and his angels?. Both the righteous and unrighteous
  go to hell or Sheol (Job 14:13, Psalms 9:17).

;    here is a seperation between the lambs and
;    the goats...and the goats share the same judgement as the heavenly
;    beings who rebelled against God.

  Jack, don't the goats go first in to the everlasting fire that has been
  prepared for Satan and his angels. Matthew 25:46 shows how judgment will
  be meted and as John 3:16 says they will perish we can piece together
  what everlasting fire means that is their eternal destruction. There's
  no return, no hope of a resurrection. By the way, some translatations 
  translate Gehenna, Hades & Sheol by the same English word hell which leads 
  to confusion. Gehenna was a literal rubbish tip in Jerusalem that was 
  kept on fire constantly so as to burn the rubbish. Those considered not
  worthy of a proper burial, such as criminals were thrown onto this tip
  so as to wipe away all trace of them. The Jewish people of Jesus' day
  would have understood Jesus' words that evil doers will be destroyed
  as if by fire in Gehenna.

; I see no reason to believe there is
; not an eternal hellfire....since it is a concept blended throughout
; scripture.

  For an eternal hellfire where persons continue to exist would mean
  Jehovah God sustaining that life. But life is a gift and not a 
  punishment (Romans 6:23). To me the hellfire teaching is totally
  illogical and shows God as unjust, for no crime could be fit 
  such a heavy penalty. 

  If this is a concept blended throughout scripture, then perhaps we 
  consider these verses. What was hell in the Hebrew scriptures, and
  then in the Christian Greek scriptures. Is Gehenna the same as Hades
  and Sheol?.
  

  Phil.

re .38

  Jack,

  Matthew 5:45b reads ";for he makes his sun rise rise on the evil and
  on the good, and sends for rain on the just and on the unjust." The 
  point being that we only exist because God gives the elements that
  support life, take those away and how will one live?. Though many are
  separated in a spiritual sense, the fact remains God is needed to 
  support life.

  I know many teach that the soul is immortal, but is this a Bible 
  teaching? (compare Ezekiel 18:4). BTW I'm not saying that God doesn't
  give Christ's brothers and sisters immortality after death, but
  being given is not the same as being immortal.

  Please consider, Jude 7, for what is mean't by the judgment of everlasting
  fire. Do the cities of Sodom and Gomor'rah continue to burn today?, no for 
  if it wasn't for the Bible we wouldn't know if they had existed at all. It's
  as though the cities and they're inhabitants have been completely wiped out. 
  But in a symbolic sense the smoke from the fire can still be seen as a warning 
  or pattern of judgment for ungodly persons. 

  Phil.

    When Christ said to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me
    in Paradise," what place was He talking about?  We all know they were
    dead a few hours later.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

	Mike,

	Luke 23:43 RSV reads "And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, 
	today you will be with me in Paradise." but another other version 
	reads "And he said to him: "Truly I tell you today, You will be 
	with me in paradise." NWT . Alot depends upon where the comma is 
	put by the translator either before or after "today" as to the 
	meaning of Jesus' words. As you point out he could be saying 
	"today you will be with me in Paradise", but seeing that the only 
	sign the Pharisees would be given would be the sign of Jonah, that 
	is he was to spend 3 days in the grave then this would contradict. 
	Jesus being raised from the dead after 3 days is a fundemental belief,
	no?.

	So what he was saying was, because of the ransom sacrifice that 
	that I give to you today, I can guarantee that you will indeed be
	with me in a Paradise. John 5:28,29 shows that Jesus does intend to
	ressurrect persons from the dead at a later date (also compare Acts 
	24:15). We believe this will be to a literal Paradise or garden on earth. 
	Jesus will be with those he resurrects in the sense he and his corulers 
	will be ruling over this new soceity from heaven (compare Revelation 5:9,10).

	Also think what would have been in the thief's mind when Jesus spoke
	of Paradise, would it not have been the garden of Eden?.

	As Jesus was in the grave and the Paradise has not been restored then we
	can conclude that Jesus was not talking about that literal day.

	Phil.
	

|	Luke 23:43 RSV reads "And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, 
|	today you will be with me in Paradise." but another other version 
    
    One of the most accurate translations is close to the RSV.  It says,
    "And He said to him, 'Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in
    Paradise.'" (NAS).
    
|	with me in paradise." NWT . Alot depends upon where the comma is 
|	put by the translator either before or after "today" as to the 
|	meaning of Jesus' words. As you point out he could be saying 
    
    I don't agree, Phil.  Be true to the text.  "Today" cannot be mistaken
    for an age in this context.  
    
|	"today you will be with me in Paradise", but seeing that the only 
|	sign the Pharisees would be given would be the sign of Jonah, that 
|	is he was to spend 3 days in the grave then this would contradict. 
|	Jesus being raised from the dead after 3 days is a fundemental belief,
|	no?.
    
    You are neglecting what happened during those 3 days though.  Where
    were Jesus and the thief after they died that day?  What if there is
    already a Paradise that is not earthly?  When Jesus said, "Father, into
    thy hands I commend my spirit," what was He talking about and where did
    His spirit go?

|	So what he was saying was, because of the ransom sacrifice that 
|	that I give to you today, I can guarantee that you will indeed be
|	with me in a Paradise. John 5:28,29 shows that Jesus does intend to
    
    I understand why you have to believe it that way, but I can't see it in
    the text.  It seems to contradict Jesus' style as well.  Can you point
    out another example where He uses the present tense to refer to a
    future event?  He didn't do this when He warned the disciples of coming
    persecution after His ascension.
    
|	ressurrect persons from the dead at a later date (also compare Acts 
|	24:15). We believe this will be to a literal Paradise or garden on earth. 
|	Jesus will be with those he resurrects in the sense he and his corulers 
|	will be ruling over this new soceity from heaven (compare Revelation 5:9,10).

    1 Corinthians 15 also deals with this.  Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:8
    "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the
    body and to be at home with the Lord" (NAS).  Clearly, believers are at 
    home with the Lord when we die.  Paradise already exists in heaven. 
    Paul experienced this in 2 Corinthians 12:4 while still alive!  It
    says, "was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which 
    a man is not permitted to speak" (NAS).  How can Paul be caught *UP* to
    Paradise when in your eyes it exists on earth and hasn't been created
    yet?
    
|	Also think what would have been in the thief's mind when Jesus spoke
|	of Paradise, would it not have been the garden of Eden?.
    
    I don't think I would be thinking about the garden of Eden if I was on
    a cross.  The thief was looking for assurance beyond the current doom
    and gloom.  He expressed his faith in Jesus as the Messiah and was
    given a promise that he would be in Heaven that day.  This is clearly
    stated in the Greek and in English.

|	As Jesus was in the grave and the Paradise has not been restored then we
|	can conclude that Jesus was not talking about that literal day.
    
    ...only if you don't take God's Word literally.

    Mike

re .42

Mike,

It wasn't until I got to the end of your reply that I realised why I my
have confused you. I agree with you "today" is to be taken literal, but
the emphasis is not on the thief being in paradise rather the emphasis
is on the momentous event that is about to take place. 

|	with me in paradise." NWT . Alot depends upon where the comma is 
|	put by the translator either before or after "today" as to the 
|	meaning of Jesus' words. As you point out he could be saying 
    
;    I don't agree, Phil.  Be true to the text.  "Today" cannot be mistaken
;    for an age in this context. 

Sorry, but this is not what I'm saying, through one act of self sacrifising 
love on the part of Jesus on that momentous day all of God's promises were 
made true not just for the thief but all mankind. This is were the emphasis
of Jesus' words is being placed. In otherwords Jesus is saying because of
the body I offer as a sacrifice today, you will be in paradise. He is not 
saying when the thief will be in paradise that day, rather the sacrifice he 
gives this day will be a guarantee of the thief being in paradise. In other
words "Trully I can tell you today, you will be in paradise". What was Jesus'
words in response to?.
    
|	"today you will be with me in Paradise", but seeing that the only 
|	sign the Pharisees would be given would be the sign of Jonah, that 
|	is he was to spend 3 days in the grave then this would contradict. 
|	Jesus being raised from the dead after 3 days is a fundemental belief,
|	no?.
    
;    You are neglecting what happened during those 3 days though.  Where
;    were Jesus and the thief after they died that day?  What if there is
;    already a Paradise that is not earthly?  When Jesus said, "Father, into
;    thy hands I commend my spirit," what was He talking about and where did
;    His spirit go?

Well the scriptures are clear as to what happened to Jesus the person in
those 3 days. In fulfillment of prophecy he was in Sheol, Psalms 16:10 NWT
reads "You will not leave my soul in Sheol" and Acts 2:27,31 NWT "'You will
not leave my soul in Hades.... he saw beforehand and spoke concerning and spoke
concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was he forsaken in
Hades" . His spirit went back to heaven to the one it originally came from.
From the Bible perspective this spirit , is the active life force in every
breathing earthly creature. Ecclesiastes 12:7 NWT reads "Then the dust returns
to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit itself returns to the
true God who gave it." (compare Genesis 2:7, Eccl 3:19, Job 27:3,4). This
was the spirit, breath of life, that Jesus as a human was commending to his
Father. The Bible indicates the soul is the person, and the breath of life
the spark if you like that gives the soul life, making the body animate. To
show that this is so, Genesis 2:7 NWT reads "And Jehovah proceeded to form 
the man out of the dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the
breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." So when Jesus died
his soul deceased and was in Sheol, he commended his spirit that is entrusted
it with God until he was to be resurrected as a person from the grave. If
he was in heaven then why would he need to entrust his spirit to God? However,
if he was for a time bound by Sheol, then entrusting his life force to God
makes sense.

|	So what he was saying was, because of the ransom sacrifice that 
|	that I give to you today, I can guarantee that you will indeed be
|	with me in a Paradise. John 5:28,29 shows that Jesus does intend to
    
;    I understand why you have to believe it that way, but I can't see it in
;    the text.  It seems to contradict Jesus' style as well.  Can you point
;    out another example where He uses the present tense to refer to a
;    future event?  He didn't do this when He warned the disciples of coming
;    persecution after His ascension.


To reiterate, what I'm saying, the emphasis was on the ransom sacrifice that
he was to offer on behalf of mankind that day, not the thief going to paradise.
In otherwords, he was talking about an event that day but it wasn't the thief
going to paradise.
    
|	ressurrect persons from the dead at a later date (also compare Acts 
|	24:15). We believe this will be to a literal Paradise or garden on earth. 
|	Jesus will be with those he resurrects in the sense he and his corulers 
|	will be ruling over this new soceity from heaven (compare Revelation 5:9,10).

;    1 Corinthians 15 also deals with this.  Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:8
;    "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the
;    body and to be at home with the Lord" (NAS).  Clearly, believers are at 
;    home with the Lord when we die.  Paradise already exists in heaven. 
;    Paul experienced this in 2 Corinthians 12:4 while still alive!  It
;    says, "was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which 
;    a man is not permitted to speak" (NAS).  How can Paul be caught *UP* to
;    Paradise when in your eyes it exists on earth and hasn't been created
;    yet?

I concede that paradise is indeed something mentioned as being in heaven in 
this context, well at atleast it appears so. 
    
|	Also think what would have been in the thief's mind when Jesus spoke
|	of Paradise, would it not have been the garden of Eden?.
    
;    I don't think I would be thinking about the garden of Eden if I was on
;    a cross.  The thief was looking for assurance beyond the current doom
;    and gloom.  He expressed his faith in Jesus as the Messiah and was
;    given a promise that he would be in Heaven that day.  This is clearly
;    stated in the Greek and in English.

How much the thief knew about the Messiah is unknown, though one could
conclude that he knew something about what the promised Messiah would restore.
It would appear that he hadn't shown any indication of expressing faith prior
to this event, so would he have been fully aware of Jesus' teachings?. My point,
was by being Jewish that he would have likely associated paradise or a garden 
with the garden of Eden. Even so, I can understand from a retrospective view
how you feel the he was alluding to heaven. However, I disagree that this
is clearly stated in Greek and in English . Looking up "paradise" in my
Penguin pocket dictionary the primary meaning was "the garden of Eden" and
secondary one "heaven". Perhaps a Greek scholar or someone knowledgable
could give the Greek definition for "Paradise" as used in this text. 

|	As Jesus was in the grave and the Paradise has not been restored then we
|	can conclude that Jesus was not talking about that literal day.
    
    ...only if you don't take God's Word literally.

Ah, now I understand why you think why I was talking about a future event. The
"today" was literal in that the events that he was alluding to were to happen
that day, that is his sacrifice that would furnish a guarantee for the thief
to be in paradise. As the Bible points out Jesus was in the grave on that day,
because of his death, but because of his *actions* that day he could say you 
will be in paradise with me (a future event as king of God's kingdom). 

Mike your view, brings more questions than it answers. How do you understand
Jesus being in the grave at the same time as being in heaven? or do you
not believe that he was in the grave?

Phil.

	Melkite Communion Hymn		      (seems relevant at this juncture)

    Make me this day a sharer
    In your mystical supper,
    O Son of God.
    For I will not betray your mystery
    To your enemies.
    Nor will I give you
    A kiss like Judas,
    But like the thief I acknowledge you:
    Remember me O Lord;
    Remember me O holy One;
    Remember me O my God,
    When you come into your kingdom.

    Phil, thanks for the clarification.

	Does anyone remember Steve Hayes? , well his wife Tina sent
	me the following, today. Thought it was appropriate to post 
	after the latest discussion with Mike.

	Phil.

Subj:	FWD: (Fwd) Language Test



An English professor wrote the words, "woman without her man is a
savage" on the blackboard and directed his students to punctuate it
correctly.

The men wrote: "Woman, without her man, is a savage."

The women wrote: "Woman: without her, man is a savage."

    Yeah, but what would it be in Greek? ;-)