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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

1265.0. "Ministering to fundamentalists" by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE (Psalm 85.10) Fri Aug 23 1996 22:09

    This topic is for sharing ideas or resource materials for use in
    discussions with fundamentalist Christians.

    Richard

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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1265.1COVERT::COVERTJohn R. CovertSat Aug 24 1996 01:495
Richard, as Maude used to say:

	God'll getcha for that!

1265.2BIGQ::SILVAquince.ljo.dec.com/www/decplus/Sat Aug 24 1996 04:213

	John... was that Maude from, "Harold and Maude"? :-)
1265.3ALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungMon Aug 26 1996 13:154
    
    Raise your hand if you think you are a "fundamentalist Christian".
    
    jeff
1265.4MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Mon Aug 26 1996 13:448
    Well, I believe I am.  
    
    Yes, I remember that show Maude.  I found that amusing when she'd say
    things like that.  This was her response to John Wayne once when he
    said, "I believe in equal rights for women...equal pay..equal
    opportunity as long as they're home in time to cook dinner." 
    
    -Jack
1265.5DELNI::MCCAULEYMon Aug 26 1996 13:5720
    Actually, one of my professors provided me insight into the only
    resource available for one to attempt to successfully talk with
    fundementalists.
    
    The resource is the Bible itself.
    
    I have devoted four years of intense study to understanding what the
    Bible really does say.
    
    Sometimes it seems that Fundementalist criticize me for studying,
    reading, and quoting the Bible, more than for anything else.
    
    Intuitive that tells me that my professor was right!
    
    The Bible itself has set me free from fundementalism.
    
    
                                            Patricia
    
                                  Patricia
1265.6MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Mon Aug 26 1996 15:008
 Z   Sometimes it seems that Fundementalist criticize me for studying,
 Z       reading, and quoting the Bible, more than for anything else.
    
    I don't criticize you for it by any means...and there are times when
    your insight gives me something to think about.  However, there are
    also times when you bring up a passage that is clearly out of context.
    
    -Jack
1265.7ALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungMon Aug 26 1996 15:0132
>    Actually, one of my professors provided me insight into the only
>    resource available for one to attempt to successfully talk with
>    fundementalists.
    
>    The resource is the Bible itself.
    
>    I have devoted four years of intense study to understanding what the
>    Bible really does say.
    
    To think one could spend all that time and even have the advice of
    professors and still not be able to successfully talk with
    fundamentalists!
    
    >Sometimes it seems that Fundementalist criticize me for studying,
    >reading, and quoting the Bible, more than for anything else.
    
    Take off those fogged-up glasses, Patricia.  No one criticizes you,
    that I'm aware of, for reading the Bible, etc.  More than anything else
    you are criticised for the irrationality and equivocation in your
    discussion of what the Bible says.
     
    >The Bible itself has set me free from fundementalism.
    
    
    >                                        Patricia
    
    This is non-sensical talk.  If fundamentalism means holding to the
    fundamentals of the biblical faith in Christ, then you cannot say that
    the Bible enables you to deny the very things fundamentalism insists
    are found in the Scriptures.  This is a complete contradiction of ideas.
    
    jeff
1265.8BIGQ::SILVAquince.ljo.dec.com/www/decplus/Mon Aug 26 1996 15:077
| <<< Note 1265.6 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs." >>>

| However, there are also times when you bring up a passage that is clearly out 
| of context.

	You forgot to add...."according to your interpretation of said
passage". 
1265.9BIGQ::SILVAquince.ljo.dec.com/www/decplus/Mon Aug 26 1996 15:1019
| <<< Note 1265.7 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>

| To think one could spend all that time and even have the advice of professors 
| and still not be able to successfully talk with fundamentalists!

	With the comment above, I can see why she might not be able to talk
with ALL Fundamentalists. You extreme Right ones are the hardest to talk to. 

| you are criticised for the irrationality and equivocation in your discussion 
| of what the Bible says.

	Yes... it is hard to talk to someone when they can't just state the
obvious.... Patricia does not have the same interpretations of the Bible that
you do in a lot of areas. Of course throwing adjectives in does spice up what
you said. But it clearly shows that one can't talk to a wall.



Glen
1265.10a predictionALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungMon Aug 26 1996 15:115
    
    This topic will remain void of any meaningful suggestions, materials or
    tactics for "ministering to fundamentalists."
    
    jeff
1265.11THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionMon Aug 26 1996 15:126
>    This is non-sensical talk.  If fundamentalism means holding to the
>    fundamentals of the biblical faith in Christ, then you cannot say that
>    the Bible enables you to deny the very things fundamentalism insists
>    are found in the Scriptures.  This is a complete contradiction of ideas.

    Perhaps the term "fundamental" is placed on the wrong set of people.
1265.12BIGQ::SILVAquince.ljo.dec.com/www/decplus/Mon Aug 26 1996 15:176
| <<< Note 1265.10 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>

| This topic will remain void of any meaningful suggestions, materials or
| tactics for "ministering to fundamentalists."

	That depends.... are you willing to talk, or just slam others?
1265.13heart/soul/body/and mindDELNI::MCCAULEYMon Aug 26 1996 15:1829
    Jeff,
    
    Without going back and rereading your replies, I tend to agree that
    what you criticize me for, more than anything else is being illogical and
    irrational.
    
    I hear that criticism, knowing that one of the major generic differences
    between women and men is an overemphasis on the part of many men of the
    rational and that of the mind, and an attempt by many women to fully
    intergrate heart, soul, body, and mind.
    
    Jeff, I grew up as a Tom boy, went to Bentley College's Master's degree
    program when there were few women there, and worked for my first 15
    years in companies where I was the only woman professional in the
    Finance and Accounting departments.
    
    Of all my gifts and talents, the intellectual and the rational is the
    one I have the least misgivings about.  It has taken me at least 7
    years of intense feeling work to understand that the intellect alone is
    harmful if not fully united with heart, soul, and body.
    
    I percieve the heart of your criticism of me to be the attempt of an
    unenlightened Male to silence a woman whom you feel is annoying.
    
    Of course, since I know you only thru this media, I may be all wet. 
    But then again,  perhaps I am not.  You reveal who you are to us only
    thru your notes.
    
                                       Patricia
1265.14CSLALL::HENDERSONEvery knee shall bowMon Aug 26 1996 16:0010
>	That depends.... are you willing to talk, or just slam others?


  Is this from the same BIGQ::SILVA that wrote .9 in this topic?




 Jim
1265.15ALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungMon Aug 26 1996 16:074
    
    Of course it is, Jim!  Utter self-deception is Glen's hallmark.
    
    jeff
1265.16CSLALL::HENDERSONEvery knee shall bowMon Aug 26 1996 16:103

 Just checking..
1265.17way of life and theologyPHXSS1::HEISERwatchman on the wallMon Aug 26 1996 17:011
    ...and the double standard continues.
1265.18BIGQ::SILVAquince.ljo.dec.com/www/decplus/Mon Aug 26 1996 17:306
| <<< Note 1265.14 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Every knee shall bow" >>>


| Is this from the same BIGQ::SILVA that wrote .9 in this topic?

	Why yes... it is. 
1265.19CSLALL::HENDERSONEvery knee shall bowMon Aug 26 1996 17:408

 So it is OK for you to slam others, as you did in .9?




 Jim
1265.20How I will minister to fundementalistsDELNI::MCCAULEYMon Aug 26 1996 17:4561
    My experience here teaches me that the best way of ministering to
    fundementalists is to remain open and loving to them while at the same
    time opposing strongly and vociferously those actions by
    fundementalists that are oppressive and those beliefs held by
    fundementalists that serve as the basis for oppression.  This is the
    approach I try to use.
    
    Persons attached to the various fundementalist cult's find a sense of
    belonging and support within the fellowship of those cult's.  Everyone
    of us desparately longs for fellowship, belonging, and support. 
    Some of us, never received those requirements as we were growing up. 
    Each of us has a choice to look for that fellowship through healthy
    relationships or unhealthy relationships.
    
    Those groups that make fellowship, support, and belonging conditional
    on unquestionable loyalty and adherence to the groups standards and
    present a group which is basically exclusionary and views itself as
    better than all other groups is dangerous to the individuals who find
    themselves involved in such groups.
    
    To minister to fundementalist, I would suggest.
    
    1.  Practice one's own spiritual health and well being.  Be connected
    to Divinity, however one defines Divinity.  Have faith in Higher Power
    regardless of how one define's Higher Power.
    
    2.  Let Divine Love flow thru one's being.  Divine Love is the center
    of all true religions.  By living Divine Love, the Fruits of our lives
    will be pure.
    
    3.  Be absolute and adament in one's defense of the oppressed.  When
    Gays are Oppressed, women are oppressed, men are oppressed, Pagans are
    oppressed, Jews are Oppressed, Catholics are oppressed (and the list
    goes on) the most effective support is from those outside one's own
    oppressed community.  It's powerful when I am being oppressed as a
    woman, for a man to speak up in my behalf.  It is powerful when a man
    is being oppressed, for me to speak up in their behalf.  It is powerful
    for a heterosexual ally to speak up when one of our gay and Lesbian
    brothers and sisters is being attached.
    
    4.  Be open and welcoming to the fundementalist.  Recognize that all
    actions proceed either from love or from our own woundedness.  Without
    compromising oneself, be sympathetic to those acting out of their
    woundedness.
    
    5.  Know the Bible.  Know the contradictions in the Bible.  Know the
    differences in the major world religions.  Know the points of
    contention.  Knowledge of the Bible is the only evidence that many
    fundementalist may be able to listen too.  Point back to the Bible.
    Agains, and Again, and Again.
    
    
    6.  Demonstrate thru actions and acceptance of others, that love and
    fellowship is possible in an inclusive community.  An inclusive
    Christian community for those inclined toward Christianity.
    
    7.  Be constant in love, nurturance, and insistence in the principles
    of Universal Love.
    
    It works for me.  My primary ministry will not be to fundementalists. 
    My primiary ministry may in fact be to ex Christians though!
1265.21THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionMon Aug 26 1996 18:005
    Sanity?  Here?

    Patricia!  What are you saying?!

    Repent ye levelheaded monster!
1265.22ALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungMon Aug 26 1996 18:0024
>    My experience here teaches me that the best way of ministering to
>    fundementalists is to remain open and loving to them while at the same
>    time opposing strongly and vociferously those actions by
>    fundementalists that are oppressive and those beliefs held by
>    fundementalists that serve as the basis for oppression.  This is the
>    approach I try to use.
    
    You have remained neither "open and loving" nor have you opposed
    biblical Christianity in any meaningful or effective way, Patricia.
    I find it odd that a self-professed non-Christian believes she can
    "minister" to a Christian in any positive fashion.
      
    
    >Persons attached to the various fundementalist cult's find a sense of
    >belonging and support within the fellowship of those cult's.  Everyone
    >of us desparately longs for fellowship, belonging, and support. 
    >Some of us, never received those requirements as we were growing up. 
    >Each of us has a choice to look for that fellowship through healthy
    >relationships or unhealthy relationships.
    
    Want to make sure that you understand that the cult fundamentalists 
    follow is the cult of Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior and no other. 
    
    jeff
1265.23THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionMon Aug 26 1996 18:1016
>    You have remained neither "open and loving" nor have you opposed
>    biblical Christianity in any meaningful or effective way, Patricia.

    I guess I wouldn't expect you to see things like that.  She didn't
    say she had to convince or convert anyone, only that she, and others
    like her, be true to their own beliefs and not be degraded by 
    "quibbling" (I *like* that word!  thx Dave) endlessly about an
    interpretation.  Confront adversity without losing sight of one's
    real goal.

>    I find it odd that a self-professed non-Christian believes she can
>    "minister" to a Christian in any positive fashion.

    Well, someone ought to :-)

    Tom
1265.24Christian Unitarian Universalist!DELNI::MCCAULEYMon Aug 26 1996 18:264
    I also identify myself as a Christian Unitarian Universalist.
    
    It is only fundementalist Christians who have an enormous interest in
    identifying me as non Christian!
1265.25truly mystifyingALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungMon Aug 26 1996 18:305
    
    *You* have identified yourself more than once, even in this string at
    least once by implication, as a non-Christian, Patricia!
    
    jeff
1265.26MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Mon Aug 26 1996 19:42113
Z    My experience here teaches me that the best way of ministering to
Z    fundementalists is to remain open and loving to them while at the same
Z    time opposing strongly and vociferously those actions by
Z    fundementalists that are oppressive and those beliefs held by
Z    fundementalists that serve as the basis for oppression.  This is the
Z    approach I try to use.
 
I find the first part of your paragraph admirable.  I find the second part 
to be somewhat nausious.  In critical thinking terms, this is considered a 
hasty generalization basically because oppression comes from every sect of 
society and is not attached solely to one group.  I do find, however, that 
the great oppressions of the past have been usually perpetrated on society
by humanists in general.  Secondly, I eschew the word oppression; mainly 
because in some way we are all oppressed.  Our government has actually taken
on the role of criminal in taking what is not theirs to give to somebody else.
In other words, oppression is a generic term, since I consider non
    constitutional appropriations thievery and oppression.  You do not.
   
ZZ    Persons attached to the various fundementalist cult's find a sense of
ZZ    belonging and support within the fellowship of those cult's.  Everyone
ZZ    of us desparately longs for fellowship, belonging, and support. 
  
The first part, I would agree with; since scripture teaches us the importance 
of such practices.  Fellowship is as necessary as eating because it builds the
body of Christ.  Unions and ethnic groups also practice the same precepts.
However, I would also say there are many who eschew the need to belong.

ZZ    Some of us, never received those requirements as we were growing up. 
ZZ    Each of us has a choice to look for that fellowship through healthy
ZZ    relationships or unhealthy relationships.
    
Yes...very much like Joshua stated to the nation of Israel.  "Choose whom you 
will serve this day.  As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

ZZ    Those groups that make fellowship, support, and belonging conditional
ZZ    on unquestionable loyalty and adherence to the groups standards and
ZZ    present a group which is basically exclusionary and views itself as
ZZ    better than all other groups is dangerous to the individuals who find
ZZ    themselves involved in such groups.
  
I guess this is why there are many different flavors of Ice Cream Patricia.  
However, I will also say that the old addage has much merit to it.  One bad 
apple spoils the whole barrel.  Also, I would suggest Jesus' own words to the 
disciples, "Beware of the leaven of the pharisees."  Interesting thing here 
is Jesus uses leaven, a rotting process to indicate the need to avoid meeting
with those of unlikemindedness.  Jesus WAS NOT an inclusionist all the time by
any means.
  
Z    2.  Let Divine Love flow thru one's being.  Divine Love is the center
Z    of all true religions.  By living Divine Love, the Fruits of our lives
Z    will be pure.
 
I would suggest here that eventually frustration would reveal itself.  In my 
12 years as a believer I have yet to see a humanist maintain a decorum of 
tolerance for a fundamentalist...which is a testimony to me that humanism is 
by nature demonic.
   
ZZ    goes on) the most effective support is from those outside one's own
ZZ    oppressed community.  It's powerful when I am being oppressed as a

I caught your latter point but I find, as do most Americans, this string of 
thought to be ludicrous.  Oh, I see your intentions as honorable, don't get me
wrong.  However, I also believe our society has become a microcosm of sniveling
crybabies...mainly because they feel oppressed.  I for one as a white male see 
and experience oppression here in the workforce.  It is abundantly clear to me
that inequity as a means to make things equitable has taken place...not just
Affirmative Action programs but also a mentality to squeeze out the old talent 
here, regardless of how valued they are to the customer, and bringing in of
new blood...some of them completely inept and unqualified for the task at hand.
However, I see this as a reality and attempt to deal with it as such.  
    
Z    4.  Be open and welcoming to the fundementalist.  Recognize that all
Z    actions proceed either from love or from our own woundedness.  Without
Z    compromising oneself, be sympathetic to those acting out of their
Z    woundedness.
 
I would submit to you here and now that were I to go to the church in Groton, I
would probably be asked to leave within 4 months.  This is conjecture of 
course but my experience has lead me to believe that Universlaism has a low
tolerance level for fundamentalism.  
   
Z    5.  Know the Bible.  Know the contradictions in the Bible.  Know the
Z    differences in the major world religions.  Know the points of
Z    contention.  Knowledge of the Bible is the only evidence that many
Z    fundementalist may be able to listen too.  Point back to the Bible.
Z    Agains, and Again, and Again.
 
Again my personal experience is that most faiths here in New England have a 
very shallow understanding or knowledge of scriptural concepts.  I believe
however, that both parties need to be teachable.   
    
Z    6.  Demonstrate thru actions and acceptance of others, that love and
Z    fellowship is possible in an inclusive community.  An inclusive
Z    Christian community for those inclined toward Christianity.
 
I don't see how this would happen.  Inclusivity does not necessitate the 
tolerance of sinful practices.
   
Z    7.  Be constant in love, nurturance, and insistence in the principles
 Z   of Universal Love.
  
Since one of the core beliefs of fundamentalism is that humanity is in a 
perpetual state of enmity with God, then Universal Love in it's purest form 
is for all intents and purposes a sham.  Universal Love is only poossible from
the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit indwells one who is regenerated.
  
Z    It works for me.  My primary ministry will not be to fundementalists. 
Z    My primiary ministry may in fact be to ex Christians though!

Personal belief, I don't believe there is such a thing as ex Christians.  
But your ministry may be at that!!

-Jack
1265.27THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionMon Aug 26 1996 20:1425
    Ya'know, Jack?  I disagree with most of what you said.
    
    You may see things where you work that would back up 
    your claim of reverse discrimination.  I just don't
    see it in my neck of the woods.  Cronyism, yes.
    
    First you say:

>I would suggest here that eventually frustration would reveal itself.  In my 
>12 years as a believer I have yet to see a humanist maintain a decorum of 
>tolerance for a fundamentalist...

    then you say:

>which is a testimony to me that humanism is 
>by nature demonic.

    By making such off handed remarks you can really get people
    ticked off.  Such logic is seen as being so wrong and twisted
    that a non-fundamentalist just bristles.  It feels like we've
    been painted a color we aren't.  It's exceedingly aggravating.
    
    There's only so much someone can take :-)

    Tom
1265.28ALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungMon Aug 26 1996 20:1817
>    By making such off handed remarks you can really get people
>    ticked off.  
    
    It doesn't take much for you, Tom.
    
    >Such logic is seen as being so wrong and twisted
    >that a non-fundamentalist just bristles.  It feels like we've
    >been painted a color we aren't.  It's exceedingly aggravating.
    
    You don't know logic, Tom.  Stop acting like you do.
    
    >There's only so much someone can take :-)

    Not much in your case, I'd say. ;)
    
    jeff
1265.29it wasn't a generalizationLGP30::FLEISCHERwithout vision the people perish (DTN 227-3978, TAY1)Mon Aug 26 1996 20:2234
re Note 1265.26 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

> Z    time opposing strongly and vociferously those actions by
> Z    fundementalists that are oppressive and those beliefs held by
> Z    fundementalists that serve as the basis for oppression.  This is the
> Z    approach I try to use.
>  
> I find the first part of your paragraph admirable.  I find the second part 
> to be somewhat nausious.  In critical thinking terms, this is considered a 
> hasty generalization basically because oppression comes from every sect of 
> society and is not attached solely to one group.  

        Patricia, in the quote above, was in no way stating that all
        (or even most) oppression flows from fundamentalists.  You
        can put aside the stomach remedies. :-)


> I do find, however, that 
> the great oppressions of the past have been usually perpetrated on society
> by humanists in general.  

        As Jesus put it so well, it is far easier to see the speck in
        your neighbor's eye than the board in your own.  And I don't
        intend to apply this solely to you or fundamentalists -- it
        applies to Patricia, and certainly to myself as well.

        (Can you imagine how much better society could be if we
        applied this teaching of Jesus by seeking out opinions of how
        we are doing not only from those who agree with us but even
        more so from those who disagree with us?  Those who are not
        allied with us will be *so* much better in pointing out our
        faults and failings!)

        Bob
1265.30LGP30::FLEISCHERwithout vision the people perish (DTN 227-3978, TAY1)Mon Aug 26 1996 20:2511
re Note 1265.0 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

>     This topic is for sharing ideas or resource materials for use in
>     discussions with fundamentalist Christians.
  
        Well, I decided to host this notes conference.

        (However, the ministry of this conference includes, but is in
        no way limited to, fundamentalist Christians.)

        Bob
1265.31MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Mon Aug 26 1996 20:5123
     Z   Such logic is seen as being so wrong and twisted
     Z   that a non-fundamentalist just bristles.  It feels like we've
     Z   been painted a color we aren't.  It's exceedingly aggravating
    
    Well, I'm glad that you have finally identified yourself as a humanist.
    :-)  
    
    As I stated a few times; something I believe has merit.  All religions
    have spewed off from the one true faith.  They carry elements of truth;
    and yet truth is not in them.  Humanism as a religion infers a form of
    self deity...since the humanist becomes a law unto him/herself.  And
    remember, the three underlying words which bring about humanism...
    
    
    I don't believe....
    
    The fundamental tenet of humanism is to portray universal love; and
    some humanists of our history have done some of the greatest good in
    logistical benefits.  And yet, how can a humanist who is an enemy of
    the most High express pure love when standing in an unredeemed and
    seperated state of being?  Alas here is the rub...We Don't Believe!!
    
    -Jack
1265.32MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Mon Aug 26 1996 20:5520
         Z   Patricia, in the quote above, was in no way stating that all
         Z   (or even most) oppression flows from fundamentalists.  You
         Z   can put aside the stomach remedies. :-)
    
    Well, I will give the benefit of the doubt here...but I got my line of
    thinking from this...
    
    > Z    time opposing strongly and vociferously those actions by
    > Z    fundementalists that are oppressive and those beliefs held by
    > Z    fundementalists that serve as the basis for oppression.
    
    My tummy is doing better! :-)
    
    In regard to oppression...Tom, there is certainly governmental
    intrusion and gerrymandering going on constantly.  It isn't the
    inequity so much that bothers me as it is the fact that taxpayer money
    is being used for what I call, traitorous purposes.  This is not a
    tenet of constitutional law.  It is government meddling.
    
    -Jack
1265.33THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionMon Aug 26 1996 21:1220
>     Z   that a non-fundamentalist just bristles.  It feels like we've
>     Z   been painted a color we aren't.  It's exceedingly aggravating
>    
>    Well, I'm glad that you have finally identified yourself as a humanist.
>    :-)  

    I think I said "non-fundamentalist".  I believe non-fundamentalist
    is not necessarily the same as humanist.  Or are you just pulling
    my leg?  :-)

>    And yet, how can a humanist 
>    ...  (edited) express pure love when standing in an unredeemed and
>    seperated state of being?  Alas here is the rub...We Don't Believe!!

    If you mean unawakened, you may have a point.  I dunno.

    As far as the government is concerned, I don't like a lot of it
    either.  Much of it, however, seems to be one big compromise.
    
    Tom
1265.34MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Mon Aug 26 1996 21:1611
 ZZ    Much of it, however, seems to be one big compromise.
    
    Well, that may be.  But if you think about it constitutionally Tom, it
    is likened to a robber who is in your house and works out a deal to
    only take the roller skates and the stereo.  There is nothing honorable
    about stealing and the mere fact that we allow the government to give
    something that is not theirs to give to somebody else, regardless of
    the intentions, tells us quite a bit about the integrity of our own
    society.  
    
    -Jack
1265.35BIGQ::SILVAquince.ljo.dec.com/www/decplus/Mon Aug 26 1996 21:268
| <<< Note 1265.19 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Every knee shall bow" >>>



| So it is OK for you to slam others, as you did in .9?


	What part was a slam. I went back and reread it. 
1265.36BIGQ::SILVAquince.ljo.dec.com/www/decplus/Mon Aug 26 1996 21:2811
| <<< Note 1265.28 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| You don't know logic, Tom.  Stop acting like you do.

	Jeff... this is the typical you... but it is also unloving. You state
you're a Christian. But your actions show differently today.



Glen
1265.37THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionMon Aug 26 1996 21:3514
>    Well, that may be.  But if you think about it constitutionally Tom, it
>    is likened to a robber who is in your house and works out a deal to
>    only take the roller skates and the stereo.  There is nothing honorable
>    about stealing and the mere fact that we allow the government to give
>    something that is not theirs to give to somebody else, regardless of
>    the intentions, tells us quite a bit about the integrity of our own
>    society.  

    I have enough to argue about.  I won't defend what our government
    is doing.  Not here, at least.  But if you want to fight about
    it, step outside.  If I'm not there in 10 minutes, start without
    me ;^)

    Tom
1265.38MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Mon Aug 26 1996 21:581
    Boy, I hate shadow boxing! :-)
1265.39ACISS2::LEECHTue Aug 27 1996 18:5950
    This topic has been a disappointing exercise in reading.  First off,
    what "fundamentalists" is the base-noter talking about?  Islamic? 
    Christian?  Some other religion?
    
    If Christian is the correct answer - as I'm inclined to believe after
    reading this string - then what kind of "ministering" are we talking
    about?  
    
    I can certainly use ministering in certain areas...that's
    why I go to church.  I'm just beginning to understand and
    internalize some of the aspects of my faith.  Sometimes faith is a
    difficult thing - especially when things in life seem to press that
    faith to its limits from time to time; or when we become depressed due to
    circumstance.  Sometimes I ask "Where are you, God?".  I know He's
    there (it's a rhetorical question  8^) ), but I wonder sometimes why He 
    withholds His hand from my life (my human perspective). 
    
    Now, in the above examples, I can certainly use ministering to help me
    with things like patience, understanding God's plan for me
    (specifically - I do understand the role Christians are to play in the
    bigger sense), and in understanding that, as in the past, God is STILL
    working with me, even it it doesn't seem like it at times.  [His ways
    are not my ways.]  Yes, I'm sure many fundamentalist Christians (defined
    as Bible-believing, Christ-saved individuals) could use ministering in
    various aspects of their life.
    
    If the term is used in the more applicable, Biblical connotation which
    means basically, "to evangelize", then I fail to see the purpose of
    this note, and would be apt to question the intent behind the basenote. 
    At face value, it seems a jab at fundamentalist Christians.  I do not
    assume to know the intent of this note, so I'm only commenting on my
    first impression of it, which may be wrong.
    
    As to the rest of the string, I wish we'd quit agitating one another. 
    I realize I'm somewhat "king agitator" most of the time, but I'm trying
    hard (lately  8^) ) not to provoke, nor be provoked in this forum.  I 
    begin to really understand Jesus' command to "turn the other cheek"... and 
    why it is important to the great commission.  It took a while to sink in, 
    I'll admit.  8^)
    
    As my momma used to tell me, a little kindness can go a long way. 
    Besides, even when someone says something spiteful, it cannot be
    offensive unless one chooses to be offended by it.  Perhaps a difficult
    line to toe, but one worth persuing, IMO.
    
    These rantings brought to you by a self-proclaimed fundamentalist
    Christian.  I'm not perfect, but I'm working on it.  8^)
    
    
    -steve     
1265.40The basenoteCSC32::J_CHRISTIEPsalm 85.10Tue Aug 27 1996 19:3211
        <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;2 >>>
                 -< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
================================================================================
Note 1265.0              Ministering to fundamentalists               39 replies
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Psalm 85.10"                       5 lines  23-AUG-1996 18:09
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This topic is for sharing ideas or resource materials for use in
    discussions with fundamentalist Christians.

    Richard

1265.41CSC32::J_CHRISTIEPsalm 85.10Tue Aug 27 1996 19:4122
.39

>    If Christian is the correct answer - as I'm inclined to believe after
>    reading this string - then what kind of "ministering" are we talking
>    about?  

To minister means to serve.
    
>    As my momma used to tell me, a little kindness can go a long way. 
>    Besides, even when someone says something spiteful, it cannot be
>    offensive unless one chooses to be offended by it.  Perhaps a difficult
>    line to toe, but one worth persuing, IMO.

Your momma was right.
    
>    These rantings brought to you by a self-proclaimed fundamentalist
>    Christian.  I'm not perfect, but I'm working on it.  8^)

Thank you.  I mean this sincerely.

Richard

1265.42PHXSS1::HEISERmaranatha!Thu Aug 29 1996 00:194
    Does ministering include teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ unto the
    salvation of those with ears to hear?
    
    Mike
1265.43CSC32::J_CHRISTIEPsalm 85.10Thu Aug 29 1996 01:2712
.42

>    Does ministering include teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ unto the
>    salvation of those with ears to hear?

I consider it a ministry to share the whole Gospel with the receptive and
the seeking.

Is there some reason you suspect it might not?

Richard

1265.44PHXSS1::HEISERmaranatha!Thu Aug 29 1996 04:324
    I agree.  Just wondering what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that CP'ers
    would expect to share with a fundamentalist.
    
    Mike
1265.45Matthew, Mark, Luke, Corinthians, EphesiansDELNI::MCCAULEYThu Aug 29 1996 13:2623
    Mike,
    
    The piece of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that many fundementalist seem
    to be missing, is the Gospel of the love of Jesus Christ.  The message
    of Jesus' radical inclusivity.  The Human side of Jesus.  the life of
    Jesus.  The Love your neigbor as yourself.  The care for the poor,
    stranger, and prisoner.  The forgiveness and tolerance.
    
    I would focus on the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke.  Less on John,
    because the fundementalist seems to take this symbolic book way too
    literally.  In Paul's writings I would focus on Corinthian's.
    
    Ephesians is also a good book.
    
    I would certainly deemphasize the book of Revelation.
    
    Not that all the books of the Bible don't provide a whole.  It's just
    that fundementalists have seemed to distort the message so badly by
    just emphasizing that which supports their social and political agenda.
    I would emphasize that in the Bible which the fundementalists seem to
    miss.
    
                                      Patricia
1265.46ALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungThu Aug 29 1996 13:5150
 
    Patricia,
       
>    The piece of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that many fundementalist seem
>    to be missing, is the Gospel of the love of Jesus Christ.  The message
>    of Jesus' radical inclusivity.  The Human side of Jesus.  the life of
>    Jesus.  The Love your neigbor as yourself.  The care for the poor,
>    stranger, and prisoner.  The forgiveness and tolerance.
    
    You haven't the slightest reason for saying that fundamentalists are
    missing the gospel of the love of Jesus Christ.  The problem with your
    context is that you don't understand biblical love, which is
    multi-faceted.  More than that you look to a political context from
    which you stereotype Christians and make a broad brush concerning their
    love.
    
    Evangelical Christians (many which are fundamentalists) are ministering
    the grace of Jesus Christ to the poor, the sick, the prisoner, and so on 
    far, far more than any liberal religious group, I assure you.  You
    think supporting political causes which promote govt. welfare makes you
    a minister to the oppressed.  This is hypocritical to the extreme.  The
    individual action of tens of millions of evangelical Christians
    ministering the grace of God in Christ to the needy is real.  There is
    no counterpart in any other religious group.
    
    >I would focus on the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke.  Less on John,
    >because the fundementalist seems to take this symbolic book way too
    >literally.  In Paul's writings I would focus on Corinthian's.
    
    It is all the Word of God and without any book the picture is
    incomplete.  But this is what you want/need in order to deny
    fundamentals of the Christian faith.
    
    >Not that all the books of the Bible don't provide a whole.  It's just
    >that fundementalists have seemed to distort the message so badly by
    >just emphasizing that which supports their social and political agenda.
    >I would emphasize that in the Bible which the fundementalists seem to
    >miss.
    
     >                                 Patricia
    
    You are so out of touch, Patricia.  That evangelicals are active in
    politics is undeniable.  That evangelicals have distorted the message
    of the Bible to support their social and political agenda is an extreme
    fallacy. 
    
    Just what messages have evangelicals distorted in order to support what
    social and political agenda?  
    
    jeff
1265.47THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionThu Aug 29 1996 14:0928
>    You haven't the slightest reason for saying that fundamentalists are
>    missing the gospel of the love of Jesus Christ.  

    Well, maybe not *all* of them.  Of the fundamentalists I've talked
    to and heard from, love never seemed to be that important.  It's
    always been one thing or another, but I can't recall love being
    among them.

>    The problem with your
>    context is that you don't understand biblical love, which is
>    multi-faceted.

    I've found that most fundamentalists look at only one facet.
    That of hard, punishing love.  At least, that's the only 
    side we seem to hear about.

>    Just what messages have evangelicals distorted in order to support what
>    social and political agenda?  

    For example: as reported in The Economist, heard on a radio
    somewhere in the mid-west:

	When asked about taxes Jesus said, "Render unto Ceasar
	what is Ceasar's".  But in a democratic society we are
	the Ceasar, so it is the obligation of every Christian
	to fight for lower taxes.

    Tom
1265.48MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Thu Aug 29 1996 14:3315
    Patricia:
    
    Just as a side note and I think it bears repeating...
    
    The Book of Revelation is a glimpse at what God's plan is and the
    destruction of sin.  If anything, it should be a book of Love to you
    because it is truly revealing the demise of humanity and the constant
    constant constant calling of God to the people to turn to him.  They
    continually blasphemed God to the very end....even after all the
    supernatural evidence and warnings they received.  
    
    Realistically, God is showing us just how much he had to tarry with an
    obstinent people.
    
    -Jack
1265.49THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionThu Aug 29 1996 14:475
>    Realistically, God is showing us just how much he had to tarry with an
>    obstinent people.

If whatever God makes is perfect, and if She made people then
people should be perfect...
1265.50DELNI::MCCAULEYThu Aug 29 1996 14:4821
    Jeff,
    
    I base my understanding of fundementalism on the noting of
    fundementalists within this file.
    
    In a recent note, you aluded to Satan as my father.  I found love
    lacking in that note.  Jack in another note once argued that Hate was one of
    the characteristics of God, since God hated Esau.
    
    Politically and socially fundementalists distort the few statements in
    the Bible about homosexuality to carry out an all out attack on
    homosexuality.  Fundementalists rountinely rally against support for
    illegal aliens, while support for aliens is a major component of Gospel
    faith.  The fundementalist are constantly telling me, that I should not
    use the Bible or quote the Bible.  
    
    I just don't believe anymore that fundementalists take the whole Bible
    as seriously as they think they do.  They take parts of the Bible, very
    seriously.
    
                                   Patricia
1265.51MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Thu Aug 29 1996 14:5211
 ZZ   If whatever God makes is perfect, and if She made people then
 ZZ   people should be perfect...
    
    Tom, tell ya what...just humor me alittle.  Please don't use the
    feminine gender when directing a response to me.  You know this bugs
    me...not because of the gender issue but because of the connotations of
    goddess worship.  I may be all wrong here but please...humor me okay.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Jack
1265.52MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Thu Aug 29 1996 14:5922
 Z   In a recent note, you aluded to Satan as my father.  I found love
 Z   lacking in that note.  Jack in another note once argued that Hate
 Z   was one of the characteristics of God, since God hated Esau.
    
    Let's go back down to memory lane here.  While I do believe that hate
    is certainly a characteristic of God, I conceded the point about Esau
    based on your explanation on the verse.  See Patricia, I actually
    changed my mind because of you.  Will wonders never cease!!? :-)
    
    However, there was a perpetual belief in here that God was the essence
    of love...a misunderstanding of 1st John 3.  God is certainly able to
    hate.  I used three or four verses from the Psalms and Proverbs to back
    this up.  Remember, David was a man after God's own heart.  The word
    hate in the Proverb verse is the same word used in Esther 9 describing
    Haman's hatred for the Jews.  It is there Patricia, and it must not be
    avoided.  Our solid walls within our belief system must be tested and 
    patched when necessary if we are to learn and stand on truth.  
    
    But remember, hate is just one of MANY attributes of God...just like
    Love os one of MANY attributes of God.
    
    -Jack
1265.53CSLALL::HENDERSONEvery knee shall bowThu Aug 29 1996 15:0519
>>    You haven't the slightest reason for saying that fundamentalists are
>>    missing the gospel of the love of Jesus Christ.  

 >   Well, maybe not *all* of them.  Of the fundamentalists I've talked
 >   to and heard from, love never seemed to be that important.  It's
 >   always been one thing or another, but I can't recall love being
 >   among them.

    
     so, if someone came up to you to tell you how you can escape an eternity
     in hell and at the same time spend eternity in the presence of the one
     who showed so much love He died for you, you wouldn't see love in that?





Jim
1265.54MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Thu Aug 29 1996 15:075
    Love is very important to me.  But what seems to get people in a tizzy
    is when I state that love is not an adequate tool for redemption and
    from an eternal perspective, will profit nothing.
    
    -Jack
1265.55ALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungThu Aug 29 1996 15:1849
    
>    I base my understanding of fundementalism on the noting of
>    fundementalists within this file.

    I know it would not be your nature to humor me but as one aspiring to
    increase her knowledge of religion, why don't you begin to demonstrate
    your increased understanding by calling the folks here "evangelicals"
    instead of "fundamentalists".  I know the actual difference between the
    two and find your non-distinction to be a distracting feature of your
    noting.  There are presently no fundamentalists participating in this
    forum.
    
    >In a recent note, you aluded to Satan as my father.  I found love
    >lacking in that note.  Jack in another note once argued that Hate was one of
    >the characteristics of God, since God hated Esau.

    Well, you make my point nicely.  You have self-defined love in such a
    way that you cannot attribute the biblical definition of love to love.  
    Jesus Christ spoke of judgement and the status of the unbeliever so often,
    yet He loved and His context was love.  Your definition of love is
    actually hypocritical because it lacks and excludes certain truths -
    pivotal, eternal truths.  Until you understand biblical love you cannot
    understand the Scriptures and the message of love there.
    
    >Politically and socially fundementalists distort the few statements in
    >the Bible about homosexuality to carry out an all out attack on
    >homosexuality.  Fundementalists rountinely rally against support for
    >illegal aliens, while support for aliens is a major component of Gospel
    >faith.  The fundementalist are constantly telling me, that I should not
    >use the Bible or quote the Bible.

    You are deceiving yourself Patricia.  The defense of Christian morality
    and now the offense of Christian activists is strictly proportional to
    the offense of homosexuals in pressing their agenda on the U.S.  "Illegal
    aliens" are illegal, breaking the law.  Aliens in the Bible were not
    illegal aliens.
    
    >I just don't believe anymore that fundementalists take the whole Bible
    >as seriously as they think they do.  They take parts of the Bible, very
    >seriously.
    
    >                               Patricia

    There is some truth in your statement, Patricia.  But it is not the truth
    you think it is.  Your stance is a political one.  You argue for your
    version of religion from politics primarily.  This is reprehensible in
    my opinion.

    jeff
1265.56salvationPHXSS1::HEISERmaranatha!Thu Aug 29 1996 15:295
    When I proposed .44, I meant in the way of salvation for the fundies. 
    How would CP'ers lead a fundie to salvation through Jesus Christ?
    
    thanks,
    Mike
1265.57BIGQ::SILVAhttp://www.yvv.com/decplus/Thu Aug 29 1996 15:5314
| <<< Note 1265.55 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| You are deceiving yourself Patricia.  The defense of Christian morality
| and now the offense of Christian activists is strictly proportional to
| the offense of homosexuals in pressing their agenda on the U.S.  

	Jeff... which came first... the chicken or the egg? Which came first,
the so called Christian morality activists by some outlandish Christians (not
to be confused with the majority of Christians) or the gay activists?



Glen
1265.58ALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungThu Aug 29 1996 16:1513

| You are deceiving yourself Patricia.  The defense of Christian morality
| and now the offense of Christian activists is strictly proportional to
| the offense of homosexuals in pressing their agenda on the U.S.  

>>	Jeff... which came first... the chicken or the egg? Which came first,
>>the so called Christian morality activists by some outlandish Christians (not
>>to be confused with the majority of Christians) or the gay activists?
    
    In the public sphere, homosexual activism came first.  
    
    jeff
1265.59TALLIS::SCHULERGreg, DTN 227-4165Thu Aug 29 1996 18:0927
>>	Jeff... which came first... the chicken or the egg? Which came first,
>>the so called Christian morality activists by some outlandish Christians (not
>>to be confused with the majority of Christians) or the gay activists?
    
    > In the public sphere, homosexual activism came first.
    
    Rubbish.
    
    Glen, you might as well ask; which came first, civil rights activists
    or racist activists fighting to keep blacks "in their place."
    
    To the reactionary, everything was just fine until the uppity
    negroes came along.
    
    There is a history of very public laws regarding homosexuality and a
    history of blatant attacks on very private gay citizens - but
    these laws and attacks were essentially invisible to the majority 
    until a few gay people decided they no longer wanted to be oppressed
    and raised their voices....
    
    The message: shut up and stay in the closet and maybe we won't
    arrest you or beat you or steal your children and maybe Pat Robertson
    and his ilk will stop harping on the evils of homosexuality - but
    don't count on it.  The Christian Coalition needs a bogeyman to help 
    pay the bills....
    
    /Greg
1265.60CSC32::J_CHRISTIEPsalm 85.10Thu Aug 29 1996 18:468
>    There are presently no fundamentalists participating in this
>    forum.

No self-avowed practicing fundamentalists, perhaps.  Actually, that's not
true either.

Richard

1265.61CSLALL::HENDERSONEvery knee shall bowThu Aug 29 1996 19:047


  Here we go...what, then, is a "fundamentalist"?


 Jeff?  Richard?
1265.62BIGQ::SILVAhttp://www.yvv.com/decplus/Thu Aug 29 1996 20:1717
| <<< Note 1265.58 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>

| In the public sphere, homosexual activism came first.

	Haa haaa haaa haaa!!! Sorry... you lose yet again. Telling homosexuals
they need to be err.... cured.... when it can't happen is partly why people got
up off their butts. Saying homosexuals are this or that, when it is not true is
nothing but lies, which is partly why they got up off their butts. What you
fail to see is the dogma that has been around for the centuries is nothing more
than activisim. But you got so used to it, you never saw it like that. You must
remember when someone first told you about the evils of homosexuality, right?
It was new for you, and they were telling you things and you eventually
believed them. That is activism. 



Glen
1265.63CSLALL::HENDERSONEvery knee shall bowThu Aug 29 1996 20:213

 "can't happen"?  Are you saying it has *never* happened?
1265.64ALFSS1::BENSONEternal WeltanschauungThu Aug 29 1996 20:264
    
    You're out of your mind, Glen.  
    
    jeff
1265.65BIGQ::SILVAhttp://www.yvv.com/decplus/Thu Aug 29 1996 20:396
| <<< Note 1265.63 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Every knee shall bow" >>>

| "can't happen"?  Are you saying it has *never* happened?

	define cured. if you define it they marry, have kids, then yes. if you
mean cured as in they are really cured... no.
1265.66BIGQ::SILVAhttp://www.yvv.com/decplus/Thu Aug 29 1996 20:396
| <<< Note 1265.64 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| You're out of your mind, Glen.

	You're confusing me with Shirley McClain, Jeff. :-)
1265.67MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Thu Aug 29 1996 21:489
    Glen:
    
    I have never espoused to the belief that one can be cured of their
    sexual orientation.
    
    I do believe however that one can control, and this is sound proven
    principles, control the actions resulting from who they are.
    
    -Jack
1265.68Jesus conquers allPHXSS1::HEISERmaranatha!Thu Aug 29 1996 22:125
|	Haa haaa haaa haaa!!! Sorry... you lose yet again. Telling homosexuals
|they need to be err.... cured.... when it can't happen is partly why people got
    
    Slight nit, but I know more ex-homosexuals who HAVE BEEN CURED than
    current homosexuals who think they can't be cured.
1265.69CSC32::M_EVANSwatch this spaceThu Aug 29 1996 23:0012
    And what is your definition of a "cure?"
    
    making babies?  I know several homosexual men who are parents.
    
    having wives?  I know several who have done that, but still find men
    more attractive.  
    
    Being able to have a full loving relationship with an opposite sex
    partner with all it entails, including having only fantasies about
    people of the opposite sex? 
    
    meg
1265.70CSC32::J_CHRISTIEPsalm 85.10Fri Aug 30 1996 01:3812
.61

>  Here we go...what, then, is a "fundamentalist"?

See topic 87, "What is fundamentalism?" and topic 908, "Fundamentalism: the
problems with inerrancy."

Thomas Moore has the kindest definition of a fundamentalist I've ever
read in his book "Care of the Soul."

Richard

1265.71hey, you made me smile!RDVAX::ANDREWSwhere the dogwoods growFri Aug 30 1996 12:0514
    
    mike...(re:68)
    
    that is certainly an interesting bit of anecdotal "evidence" but
    could it possibly be that it has something to do with the folks with
    whom you have personal contact.
    
    i would hazard to guess that Glen and i know a good number more gay,
    lesbian and bisexual people than you, jack and jeff combined...unless
    there's something that you're not telling us ...:)
    
    btw..it's nice to see you noting here with us again...
    
    peter
1265.72MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Fri Aug 30 1996 13:219
    Peter:
    
    Curiosity question.  Is it possible that a segment of the gay
    population is gay due to conditioning, i.e. dominant mother or other
    external influences?  Is it possible?
    
    Thanks,
    
    -Jack
1265.73THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionFri Aug 30 1996 13:291
    Can we move this to the gay notestring, please?
1265.74MKOTS3::JMARTINMadison...5'2'' 95 lbs.Fri Aug 30 1996 14:301
    Yes!
1265.77PHXSS1::HEISERmaranatha!Fri Aug 30 1996 16:3714
|    that is certainly an interesting bit of anecdotal "evidence" but
|    could it possibly be that it has something to do with the folks with
|    whom you have personal contact.
    
    I suppose that's possible.  However, I spend more time at work and 
    on a major university campus than I do in church.  I'm far from the
    type that hides in the church and ignores the world around them.  Can't
    witness to the lost that way ;-)
    
    |    btw..it's nice to see you noting here with us again...
    
    thank you, Peter.  
    
    Mike
1265.78Moderator actionCSC32::J_CHRISTIEPsalm 85.10Fri Aug 30 1996 19:175
    Several replies here have been moved to Topic 91.
    
    Richard Jones-Christie
    Co-moderator/CHRISTIAN PERSPECTIVE
    
1265.79THOLIN::TBAKERFlawed To PerfectionFri Aug 30 1996 19:235
>    Several replies here have been moved to Topic 91.

Thank you.

Tom