Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

	Richard, if I ever have doubts in my beliefs, I turn it over to Him.
Sometimes right away, sometimes not. The latter usually has me struggling
longer than I should.



Glen

 There are times I have doubts, I believe every Christian does, pariticular-
 ly living in a world that is seemingly bent on pushing God out of ourlives.
  I then pick up my Bible and I read, for example, 1John, which in the first 
 couple of verses reassures us..it speaks of teh Lord Jesua Christ, and how
 they had seen him, walked with him, touched Him and witnessed him on
 earth..I then read the assurances that my sins are forgiven, and that
 I can *know* that I have eternal life..5:13 "these things I write that
 you may know you have eternal life"...

 And then I witness the world around me, that is rejecting God, twisting
 and distorting His Word, and how sin and evil are endorsed..sadly, these
 things too remind me that God is real, and faithful..




 Jim

    Doubt is an invitation to deepen our faith.

    How to deal with it?  It depends on the nature of it.

    Some need to be explored immediately and others can
    sit in the back of the mind for years to mature and
    one day be revealed unexpectedly.  And others require
    much work and searching.

    There are more doubts than people.  They can't all
    be dealt with the same way.

    Tom

    Doubt is a perfectly natural and expected phenomenon.  You can either
    deal with it or ignore it.  Dealing with it is often painful and thus
    avoided.  
    
    Jim (Re .2)  ...Do you ever "doubt" your source of reassurance?   I'm
    sure that believing in the passages you cited can aleviate or eliminate
    the doubt.  But is this a psychological or divine effect?
    
    -dave
    
    

 No, I don't doubt my source of reassurance..

 "For I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able, to
  keep that which I've commited unto Him against that day."

  I know Jesus Christ, I know the HOly Spirit and I know my Father..there is
  no doubt of the source..




 Jim

    Also worth noting on the subject of doubt is denial.  One may be asked
    if they have any doubt in their belief in God.  They might reply that
    they don't, even though, deep down, they're really is some doubt.
    Giving that doubt to God might just be another way of dismissing or
    ignoring it at a psychological level.  Then the "apparent" absense of
    doubt that remains is, in fact, a form of denial.
    
    -dave
    
    
    
    

    God's Word says salvation shouldn't be based on feelings.  Whenever I
    doubt, I still know I'm saved because of how He has revealed Himself to
    me.  At my worst moment, my head still knows and has the promise of
    assurance that He has given me.  Additionally, Jesus is always faithful
    in dusting me off and setting me back on my feet.  Everything comes
    from Christ.  Even the faith I need to live for Him and serve Him!  I
    must allow Him to take over my life and use me.
    
    Mike

>    God's Word says salvation shouldn't be based on feelings.

Where?

|Where?
    
    We should not trust our changing hearts (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 14:12),
    but base our spiritual decisions on the secure and established Word of
    God (Isaiah 40:8, Acts 17:11).
    
    Mike

    Then you're saying it's OK to have some doubt?  
    
    Im my mind, there's a big difference between believing and knowning.
    A belief is something you "go on", whether you KNOW it to be true or
    not.  Knowing is something that always has some doubt, however small,
    associated with it.  
    
    I can "believe" that when I press the brake pedal, my car will stop. 
    I "go with" that and in fact risk my life on this belief.  But I
    never really know.... 100% know.... that the next time I step on the
    brake it'll work.  
    
    So when I ask someone if the believe in God, they might say Yes.  But
    when I ask them if they KNOW that God exists, I can accept an answer of
    NO from that same person.  Doubt is a design feature.  You either admit
    it and deal with it or bury it and pretend it isn't there.
    
    -dave
    
    

    >    God's Word says salvation shouldn't be based on feelings.
    
ZZ    Where?
    
    "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own
    understanding.  In all your ways acknowledge him and he shall direct
    thy paths."  This is from Proverbs 3: 5,6.  Of course this verse can
    have numerous applications but I believe feelings can be deceptive.
    
    -Jack

    This is funny.  Our sermon yesterday was about "Belief and Faith".

    The example used was when Jesus walked over to the deciples
    in the boat and Peter was called out to walk to Jesus.  He
    went a little ways and started to doubt and started to sink.
    Jesus reached out and pulled him back up.  Peter believed but
    his faith started to slip.

    It shows us all our tendency to slip.  And where I need work.

    What's strange is that here, now, thinking about this and what
    faith can do, my heart starts to open up.

    Hypothesis: Lack of faith requires a great deal of energy to
    maintain an equilibrium - a balance in life.  Faith frees that
    energy, frees us from uncertainty and so allows us to love
    more intensely and freely.

    To replace doubt with certainly/faith would be to free up a
    lot of our personal resources/energy and so free us up to be
    ... errr, free!  ("the truth will set me free"?  Free to do
    what?  Perhaps that's another topic :-)

    This isn't that well thought out, I admit.  But, what do you
    think?  Is it plausible?  Is the devil deceiving me again?
    Should I doubt my feelings of love?

    Thanks,

    Tom

    Re .12 (Tom)

    Yes, when faith replaces doubt, one can operate much more efficiently.
    In the scenario you posed, this sounds like a very positive thing.  But
    there's a danger in having too much blind faith.  For example, many of 
    Hitler's followers had a lot of faith and never doubted that what they
    were doing was incorrect.  In that mode, they were ruthless and extremely
    efficient in what they did.  Their capacity to do evil was increased via
    their faith and trust in Hitler.  Some of his high ranking followers
    doubted him.  They were willing and able to step back, away from their
    faith and "smell the coffee".  They tried to assasinate him, blah,
    blah...

    Disclaimer (for all the good it'll do)
    I am NOT equating faith in Hitler with faith in God.  I was using
    an extreme example of misguided faith to illustrate the potential
    danger of blind faith.  Having some doubt, being willing to examine
    things in a more objectvier way, may sometimes be a healthy thing.
    
    And I realize that the mere thought of applying this to matters of
    religion is repugnant to many.  
    
    But sometimes I wonder.  If we're "supposed to" have some doubt
    (designed to have doubt) and we're supposed to act on that doubt,
    is it correct to suppress this?

    - Devil's Advocate Dave
                                   

    "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?

    was this really doubt or a statement of the fact that He knew God was
    forced to turn His back on Christ as He bore the sin of the world?

    Especially since he was reciting the well known Psalm 22!

    I guess, it remains a matter of differing interpretation.
    
    For me it was doubt.  The dark night of the Soul.  An ultimate
    attestation of Jesus' humanity.  An indication that doubt is also a
    universal condition, and that it is not doubt that is a problem but how
    we deal with our doubt.
    
    As I read the story, as soon as Jesus turned his doubt over to God, the
    Father, God the father responded with his loving presence.

 For you it is doubt because it is just a story to you ..if you take
 all of Scripture you will see that all of oursin was placed on Jesus on
 the cross, and as this sin fell upon Him, God, who cannot tolerate sin,
 turned away from Jesus..thus, Jesus felt the break (much like many of us
 feel when sin comes between us and Jesus) and cried "why hast thou forsaken
 me?"



 Jim

    Jim,
    
    As I said in .16.  Your interpretation of the scripture is one
    interpretation.  My interpretation of that passage differs with yours.
    
    One of the Biblical passages that I am most inspired by, is Jesus in
    Getsemene just prior to his arrest.  Jesus, a man, wrestling with his
    own doubt and fear.  Jesus, a man committing himself to go forward and
    to trust in God in spite of his fear.  Jesus, recharging himself to do
    that which must be done.
    
    The two passages are consistent.  IMHO.

    >God, who cannot tolerate sin, turned away from Jesus..
    
    Yet it is said that Jesus=God.  Was God turning away from himself?
    

    Dave,
    
    Good point!.  It is amazing how many passages in the Bible show that
    Jesus is totally separate from and subordinate to God the Father. 
    

    Below is the biblical doctrine concerning "assurance" of salvation. 
    
    
Chapter XVIII

Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation

I. Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly
deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of
being in the favor of God, and estate of salvation1 (which hope of
theirs shall perish):2 yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus,
and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good
conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that
they are in the state of grace,3 and may rejoice in the hope of the
glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.4

II. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable
persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope;5 but an infallible
assurance of faith founded upon the divine truth of the promises of
salvation,6 the inward evidence of those graces unto which these
promises are made,7 the testimony of the Spirit of adoption
witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God,8 which
Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to
the day of redemption.9

III. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of
faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with
many difficulties, before he be partaker of it:10 yet, being enabled
by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God,
he may, without extraordinary revelation in the right use of
ordinary means, attain thereunto.11 And therefore it is the duty of
every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election
sure,12 that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in
the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength
and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience,13 the proper fruits of
this assurance; so far is it from inclining men to looseness.14

IV. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers
ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in
preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which wounds the
conscience and grieves the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement
temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and
suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no
light:15 yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of
God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that
sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the
operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be
revived;16 and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported
from utter despair.17

_______________________________
1 JOB 8:13 So are the paths of all that forget God;
and the hypocrite's hope shall perish: 14 Whose hope
shall be cut off, and whose trust shall be a spider's
web. MIC 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and
the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets
thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the
Lord, and say, Is not the Lord among us? none evil can
come upon us. DEU 29:19 And it come to pass, when he
heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself
in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I
walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add
drunkenness to thirst. JOH 8:41 Ye do the deeds of
your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of
fornication; we have one Father, even God.
2 MAT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord,
Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy
name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many
wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity.
3 1JO 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him,
if we keep his commandments. 3:14 We know that we have
passed from death unto life, because we love the
brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in
death. 18 My little children, let us not love in word,
neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And
hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall
assure our hearts before him. 21 Beloved, if our heart
condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him,
and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in
us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1JO 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on
the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye
have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name
of the Son of God.
4 ROM 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into
this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of
the glory of God. 5 And hope maketh not ashamed;
because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts
by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
5 HEB 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do
shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope
unto the end. 19 Which hope we have as an anchor of
the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth
into that within the veil.
6 HEB 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to
shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his
counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 That by two
immutable things, in which it was impossible for God
to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have
fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before
us.
7 2PE 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great
and precious promises: that by these ye might be
partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the
corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And
beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith
virtue; and to virtue knowledge. 10 Wherefore the
rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling
and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall
never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered
unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of
our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 1JO 2:3 And hereby
we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments. 3:14 We know that we have passed from
death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that
loveth not his brother abideth in death. 2CO 1:12 For
our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our
conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity,
not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we
have had our conversation in the world, and more
abundantly to you-ward.
8 ROM 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of
bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit
of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The
Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we
are the children of God.
9 EPH 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye
heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed
with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the
earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the
purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye
are sealed unto the day of redemption. 2CO 1:21 Now he
which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath
anointed us, is God; 22 Who hath also sealed us, and
given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
10 1JO 5:13 These things have I written unto you
that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye
may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may
believe on the name of the Son of God. ISA 1:10 Hear
the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear
unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. MAR
9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried
out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou
mine unbelief. (see PSA 88; PSA 77)
11 1CO 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of
the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we
might know the things that are freely given to us of
God. 1JO 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and
he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. HEB
6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the
same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the
end: 12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them
who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
EPH 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by
faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the
breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19 And to
know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that
ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
12 2PE 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give
diligence to make your calling and election sure: for
if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
13 ROM 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we
have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace
wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of
God. 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love
of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost
which is given unto us. 14:17 For the kingdom of God
is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace,
and joy in the Holy Ghost. 15:13 Now the God of hope
fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye
may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy
Ghost. EPH 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all
spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
without blame before him in love. PSA 4:6 There be
many that say, Who will shew us any good? Lord, lift
thou up the light of thy countenance upon us. 7 Thou
hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time
that their corn and their wine increased. 119:32 I
will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt
enlarge my heart.
14 1JO 2:1 My little children, these things write I
unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have
an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the
whole world. ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we
continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid.
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer
therein? TIT 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth
salvation hath appeared to all men. 12 Teaching us,
that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should
live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present
world. 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might
redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a
peculiar people, zealous of good works. 2CO 7:1 Having
therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us
cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and
spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. ROM
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them
which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the
flesh, but after the Spirit. 12 Therefore, brethren,
we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the
flesh. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we
know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him;
for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that
hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is
pure. PSA 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee,
that thou mayest be feared. 1JO 1:6 If we say that we
have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we
lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the
light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one
with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son
cleanseth us from all sin.
15 SON 5:2 I sleep, but my heart waketh: it is the
voice of my beloved that knocketh, saying, Open to me,
my sister, my love, my dove, my undefiled: for my head
is filled with dew, and my locks with the drops of the
night. 3 I have put off my coat; how shall I put it
on? I have washed my feet; how shall I defile them? 6
I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn
himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I
sought him, but I could not find him; I called him,
but he gave me no answer. PSA 51:8 Make me to hear joy
and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken
may rejoice. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy
salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. 14
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my
salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy
righteousness. EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit
of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of
redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and
anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away
from you, with all malice. PSA 77:1 I cried unto God
with my voice, even unto God with my voice; and he
gave ear unto me. 2 In the day of my trouble I sought
the Lord: my sore ran in the night, and ceased not: my
soul refused to be comforted. 3 I remembered God, and
was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was
overwhelmed. Selah. 4 Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I
am so troubled that I cannot speak. 5 I have
considered the days of old, the years of ancient
times. 6 I call to remembrance my song in the night: I
commune with mine own heart: and my spirit made
diligent search. 7 Will the Lord cast off for ever?
and will he be favourable no more? 8 Is his mercy
clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for
evermore? 9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he
in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah. 10 And I
said, This is my infirmity: but I will remember the
years of the right hand of the most High. MAT 26:69
Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came
unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of
Galilee. 70 But he denied before them all, saying, I
know not what thou sayest. 71 And when he was gone out
into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto
them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus
of Nazareth. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do
not know the man. PSA 31:22 For I said in my haste, I
am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou
heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried
unto thee. (PSA 88 throughout) ISA 50:10 Who is among
you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of
his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no
light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay
upon his God.
16 1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit
sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God. LUK 22:32 But I have prayed
for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art
converted, strengthen thy brethren. JOB 13:15 Though
he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will
maintain mine own ways before him. PSA 73:15 If I say,
I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the
generation of thy children. PSA 51:8 Make me to hear
joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast
broken may rejoice. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy
salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. ISA
50:10 Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that
obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in
darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name
of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
17 MIC 7:7 Therefore I will look unto the Lord; I
will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will
hear me. 8 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when
I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the
Lord shall be a light unto me. 9 I will bear the
indignation of the Lord, because I have sinned against
him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for
me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall
behold his righteousness. JER 32:40 And I will make an
everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn
away from them, to do them good; but I will put my
fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from
me. ISA 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a
little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but
with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the
waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the
waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so
have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor
rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, and
the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart
from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be
removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee. PSA
22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why
art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of
my roaring? (PSA 88 throughout)

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 RE .20, .21


  The Bible says that Jesus became sin for us while on the cross..for
 that brief period of time, Jesus and God were separated..it's all there
 in the Bible.




 Jim

The Bible does not say that God and Jesus were separated while
Jesus was on the cross.

It doesn't even say that God had forsaken Jesus.

What it says, is that Jesus was feeling the human despair of the _fear_
that God had forsaken him -- but God will never forsake anyone who turns
to him.

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:

	My God, my God, look upon me; why hast thou forsaken me?
	and art so far from my health and from the words of my complaint?

the first section of this psalm ends at verse 19:

	But be not thou far from me, O Lord;
	thou art my succour, haste thee to help me.

Psalm 22 is a psalm of everlasting hope and confidence in an unfailing God,
a God who will not fail his people even when in the depths of despair.

/john

    I agree with John Covert.

    I believe that Jesus knew he was quoting Psalm 22 on the cross, but that
    for me in no way lessens or diminishes the genuine perception of total
    abandonment that brought these agony-laden words to his lips.
    
    Richard
    

 Guess I need some more study....





 Jim