Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    >How justified is one in "seeing" God in everyday events which might
    >have simple explanations which we don't/can't see? 
    
    Hi Dave,
    
    It's completely valid.  God has chosen to work via secondary causes rather
    than direct causes in most of history.  Remember, what you call a
    simple explanation is in reality the working of laws, knowledge,
    matter, etc. which He created in the first place.
     
    >Is it valid to base one's faith in this sort of thing?  
    
    Do you mean, is it valid to credit to God, through faith, such things?
    In light of what I said above, absolutely.  When the medical
    arts save or extend the life of a loved one, I'm thankful to God and
    praise Him for it.  When one escapes a dangerous event with life
    intact, s/he is thankful to something usually.  
    
    jeff 
    
                                                          

    .0
    
    I frequently cannot distinguish between coincidence (serendipitous
    events) and God incidents.
    
    I only wish there were more of them!
    
    Richard
    

Dave,

	You might be interested in the experiment of prayer in two identical
gardens I heard about.  Both gardens were tended and watered in equal amounts.
Both received the same amount of sunlight.  The only difference is that one
garden was prayed in by several individuals for a time each day and the other
one wasn't.  The prayed-in garden flourished.  The other one did just alright.

	Of course, the prayed-in garden also received the benefit of extra
carbon dioxide being exhaled by all those extra bodies visiting it.

Shalom,
Richard

    But I think the person I mentioned in .0 was thinking of something a lot 
    more direct, as in...
    
      Car stalls. 
      Try to restart without prayer yields failure
      Add DryGas and try again (witout prayer) yields failure
      Pray for 5 minutes yields partial success.
      Incrementally more prayer yields incrementally more engine power.
    
    She saw a direct cause-effect relationship between prayer and the car
    starting.  In her mind, the prayer is what got God to fix the car.  In 
    my mind, I pictured ice in a fuel line, eventually dissolving into
    the alchohol over a period of a few minutes, something which would have
    happened eventually, with or without praying.
    
    It may be true that God created the gas line, the ice, the temperature, 
    the idea of using DryGas, etc... and everything that happened was a result 
    of his handiwork.  In that light, distinguishing between coincidence ahd 
    divine intervention may be moot (all events are a result of the divine). 
    But there's the idea that God kind of sits back and let's things happen,
    periodically intervening if/when the situation warrents it.  Biblical
    stories may be used to suport this idea.
    
    -dave
    
    

    Re .3 (the Garden)
    
    What can be said about a thing like that.  Where did you read about
    this?  Did this source have any sort of agenda?  Were the people who
    maintained the gardens beyond "influencing" the results in any physical 
    way beyond prayer, even subconsciously? 
    
    If this was supposed to be a scientific experiment to prove that prayer
    works, it would have to be conducted many times and under strict
    laboratory conditions.  If prayer was the only difference between the
    two gardens, and one clearly flourished while the other withered, over
    a few dozen trials, then these scientific results would be worthy of
    consideration. But not until.  Repeatability and using controls are
    basic in scientific experimentation.
    -dave

    .5
    
    I'm afraid I don't have that much detail about it.  What it says to me
    is that people might be doing their plants some actual good by talking
    to them.  ;-)
    
    Richard
    

 I once heard it said that coincidence is God's way of showing us He
 has a sense of humor.




 Jim

It's only valid to attribute good things to God as a result of prayer if 
you attribute the bad things to him also, when your prayers are not 
answered. What usually happens, however, is that the pray-er decides that 
they were not 'sincere' enough to be answered.

I've also always wondered about those whose house burns to the ground but 
are thankful that nobody was hurt. If God was really looking out for them 
why did he allow the house to burn?

Overall, through my observations, I have never noticed any difference in 
the way that fate treats the devout, the non-believer, the good person or 
the evil person.

Steve

>Overall, through my observations, I have never noticed any difference in 
>the way that fate treats the devout, the non-believer, the good person or 
>the evil person.

Steve .8,

	Your observations echo much of what it says in the book of
Ecclesiastes.

Shalom,
Richard

>I've also always wondered about those whose house burns to the ground but 
>are thankful that nobody was hurt. If God was really looking out for them 
>why did he allow the house to burn?


  I'll have to remember to type in the testimony of a man and woman
 from Michigan who lost 6 of their 9 children in a tragic car accident
 a few years ago.  Those who survived (including the parents) were left
 burned and disfigured.  And yet, they praise God for allowing them to
 live, and see the purpose of their suffering.  "for we know that all things
 work together for good to them that love God, to them that are the called
 according to His purpose"..




 Jim

>>Overall, through my observations, I have never noticed any difference in
>>the way that fate treats the devout, the non-believer, the good person or
>>the evil person.

>        Your observations echo much of what it says in the book of
>Ecclesiastes.

Is this another way of saying "don't expect prayers to appear to be doing
anything?"

-dave

>Overall, through my observations, I have never noticed any difference in
>the way that fate treats the devout, the non-believer, the good person or
>the evil person.

Well, whether it's a result of prayers being answered or not, I believe
that there is reward as well as punishment during this life.

While I may not have accomplished what others may consider grand things
and certainly I'm not rich - (remember who I work for ;=) - but I
certainly feel blessed.

I don't pray for things, though. Mostly, I pray for the basics like love
and understanding.

The value of prayer is in the act itself.

TTom

>Overall, through my observations, I have never noticed any difference in
>the way that fate treats the devout, the non-believer, the good person or
>the evil person.

    On one very basic, tangible level, as a believer one's attitude 
    changes.  EG: a rock falls on someone's leg and cuts it off.  One
    person could be really bummed out and bitter (hint: this doesn't
    help matters) or they could step back and think:
	1. It could have been worse and I'm glad it wasn't
	2. This is interesting - my life has changed.  How
	   shall I approach the rest of my life?

    Now, which one is set up to prosper and which one is set up
    for disappointment?

    It's not how fate treats the devout, it's how the devout treat
    fate.

    Tom Baker

.13 Baker

    It's not how fate treats the devout, it's how the devout treat
    fate.

But that attitude does not necessarily have anything to do with religion.

Steve

>
>>    It's not how fate treats the devout, it's how the devout treat
>>    fate.
>
>But that attitude does not necessarily have anything to do with religion.
>
>Steve

Steve, 

That's a very vague statement.  Could you please explain what
you are trying to say?

Thanks,
Tom Baker

Sorry.

What I meant is that dealing well with bad things is not a trait that is 
linked solely to the devout. It links back to what I said before, I see 
little difference in how people react to fate based on their religious 
beliefs.

Steve

Hi Steve,

>What I meant is that dealing well with bad things is not a trait that is 
>linked solely to the devout. 

True.

>It links back to what I said before, I see 
>little difference in how people react to fate based on their religious 
>beliefs.

That is your perception.  I perceive something different.

Tom Baker

    Failing to deal with very bad feelings can be very unhealthy.  The story
    about the people who lost "only" 6 kids and were "only" disfigured in 
    the accident sounds unhealthy.  They're either "super people" or, most
    likely, people in denial (religious rationalizations notwithstanding).

    Yes.  Mourn your losses, but don't give up.

I'm reminded of the prohibition against graven images.

At one time it was believed that possessing household gods in the form
of idols gave the bearer a kind of leverage or control over unseen powers.

Yahweh insisted that that was not the case.  No one was to entertain the
notion of having power over or exclusive access to Yahweh.

Shalom,
Richard

.17 Tom Baker

>>It links back to what I said before, I see 
>>little difference in how people react to fate based on their religious 
>>beliefs.

>That is your perception.  I perceive something different.

Can you provide examples?

Steve

RE: .21

>Can you provide examples?

I'm not saying that all religious people cope with "bad" 
things better than others.

I have see people use their religious beliefs to work through
hard times.  Other "religious" people just give up or take it
out on someone else.  The same can be said of non-religious people.

What *I* have found is that my beliefs have helped me deal with
unpleasant situations.  I have known others that have done the
same.  By seeing that trying times are an invitation to growth
a "sufferer" can step back, see what needs to be done and deal
with it.  This was a spiritual teaching of the people I used
to hang out with.

Yes, non-religious people do the same thing.  It's just that 
the spiritual folk I used to hang out with embraced it as
a living philosophy or philosophy of life.

Tom

    It's like going to the dentist to get a tooth filled.  You know it's
    going to be uncomfortable and maybe even painful, but you also trust
    your dentist and have faith in his/her ability to improve your
    situation in the long run.

    It's comforting to know that the dentist is a caring person who's
    working his/her magic for your benefit.  You can see, hear, touch and
    even converse with that real person, so the faith and trust comes easy.

    And so we humans roam the earth and we feel out of control, a pawn to
    the whims of nature.  Bad things can and do happen to us.  The
    possibility of bad fortune hangs over us all the time, and that's
    uncomfortable.  So where's the dentist who's in control of the drills 
    which we perceive as doing us harm?  We can't see or hear or touch 
    him/her.  What to do?

    Maybe we INVENT a God, someone who's looking out for us in the long run.
    The piercing drills, in the hand of a caring God are then seen as being
    good for us, part of a plan to improve our overall situation.  And that
    makes the pain much easier to cope with, whether there's really a
    dentist/God out there or not.

    -dave

    
    There's no doubt "gods" are invented - history is strewn with them.
    
    But there's no doubt that God, the Creator of the universe, indeed exists 
    for all of nature testifies to this fact, to the foolish and the wise.  And
    then we have the very Word of God which reveals His existence to us and 
    what He demands of us, where we're going, what creation and life are
    about, what He is like and many other positive pronouncements
    concerning God.
    
    We who trust in Jesus Christ know our Dentist; we even "hear" Him and
    "see" Him!  He is alive!  
    
    jeff

    RE: .23

    Hi Dave,

    I came to the same conclusion about dentists a few  years ago,
    while in "the chair".  It helped me relax.  I wish I'd thought
    of that in .22 :-)

>    The piercing drills, in the hand of a caring God are then seen as being
>    good for us, part of a plan to improve our overall situation.  And that
>    makes the pain much easier to cope with, whether there's really a
>    dentist/God out there or not.

    Sort of like saying, "Have faith.  It's all for the best."

    Whether or not it's based on reality, I find it comforting.  And
    not everyone who is "religious" actually has that kind of faith.

    It works for me...

    Tom

    Re .24
    
    Well Jeff, we can run down the same old rathole again if you want...
     
     If the universe was created by God, who created God?
    
     If God wasn't created, why cannot the universe have this attribute,
     thereby eliminating the need for of God(s)?
    
     If time exists, and nothing can be created outside of time, then time
     could not have been created.  But I thought God created everything.
    
     Blah... blah... blah....
    
    We won't come to resolution on this.  Neither of us is good enough to
    prove his point.  It's an interesting debate, and I love to debate ;-)
    but I won't get in a fight about it.  We can either drop it here or
    proceed constructively.  
    
    
    Re .25
    
    >    Sort of like saying, "Have faith.  It's all for the best."
    >
    >    Whether or not it's based on reality, I find it comforting.  And
    >    not everyone who is "religious" actually has that kind of faith.
    
    Exactly.  If you're in pain, and a doctor gives you a pill which kills
    the pain, you really don't care whether it was a placebo or not.  It 
    worked and that's good enough!  
    
    I read a book called "Molecules of the Mind".  It was a summarion of
    the most recent developments in the areas of brain anatomy, brain 
    physiology, phychochemistry, etc... .  It sort of reduced a lot of our
    most lofty noble emotions and behaviors down to chemistry.  One of the 
    cutting edge researchers was asked if she believed all this was true.
    She responded that she did.  She was asked if she believed in God and 
    she responded that she did.  When asked to reconcile the two, she said 
    that she couldn't but that her "desire" to believe in God was real and 
    that a religious life made her "feel" better and that was good enough 
    for her.
    
    Something for someone like me to consider I suppose.
    
    -dave

    
    Dave,
    
    The proof of God Almighty's existence is in your very nature, according
    to the Bible.  And as is His way, He even gave us His creation as an
    additional overwhelming witness to His existence, power, and glory, 
    according to the Bible.
    
    There's no need to argue about time, cause and effect, and so on as the
    truth of His existence is plain and clear, according to the Bible.  No
    man has any excuse before God and cannot say, "but I didn't know you
    existed!".
    
    So, I'll not take you down any ratholes.
    
    jeff
    
     

.25

>    Sort of like saying, "Have faith.  It's all for the best."

It has been my experience as a chaplain and as one who has experienced
loss, pain, and tragedy that this is really not a very comforting thing
to say or hear.  It comes across as dismissing and invalidating.

Shalom,
Richard

    Re .27 (Jeff)
    
    You used "according to the Bible" 3 times.  Why is the Bible THE truth
    and therefor different from the Koran, or any other written religion or 
    mythology?  In other words.. "Says Who?"
    
    
    re .28 (Richard)
    
    > It comes across as dismissing and invalidating.
    
    Invalidating in the sense of a quasi-admission that it might not be
    based in truth.  But if the truth eludes you, then this sort of thing 
    is all that's left.
    
    
    Where does FAITH enter this subject?
    
    -dave
    
      
    

    re .28 (Richard)
    
    > It comes across as dismissing and invalidating.

    When I "say" that in times of *MY OWN* troubles it is
    for my own consumption.  For someone without the faith
    that I'm blessed with, I can easily see your point.
    
    re .29 Dave

>    Where does FAITH enter this subject?

    Errr... look at the subject line :-)

    Tom

    >Errr... look at the subject line :-)
    
    You mean your faith in based in the observation of what might well be 
    coincidence?  Pretty shaky stuff, wouldn't you say? :-)
    
    -dave

    .29 and .30
    
    Oh, I guess to say "it's all for the best" is okay for a great number
    of situations, probably the majority of professional dental situations
    anyway. ;-)
    
    I also believe that there are times God grieves with us, that God shares
    our woundedness and will not turn away from it.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

| <<< Note 1218.27 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| The proof of God Almighty's existence is in your very nature, according
| to the Bible.  And as is His way, He even gave us His creation as an
| additional overwhelming witness to His existence, power, and glory,
| according to the Bible.

	This is where the problem is for me. You keep saying according to the
Bible. It would make much more sense if you said according to God. Why do
people hold a book written by humans on the same level as Him is something I'm
not sure I will ever understand.

Glen

    Re .33 (Glen)
    
    Wait a minute.  That's like saying that God exists because he says so.
    The Bible oriented view seems to be "God exists because the Bible says
    so and the Bible's correct because God says so".  
    
    The only way that I can see one can climb out of this mess is to equate
    God with the universe and THEN one can say that God exists by direct
    evidence of the universe.  But then one starts to rapidly dwell into
    eastern, not western thought on the subject of metaphysics.
    
    -dave

>| The proof of God Almighty's existence is in your very nature, according
>| to the Bible.  And as is His way, He even gave us His creation as an
>| additional overwhelming witness to His existence, power, and glory,
>| according to the Bible.

    Actually, I agree with the Bible as far as this is concerned.

    It's not because the Bible says it.  To me it's self-evident.
    God is love.  I am in God's image.  I am, at my very essence,
    love, as are all of us.  It's obvious, although not always 
    apparent.

    Don't ask me to "prove" it.  It would be like trying to accurately
    describe a strawberry enough for someone else to taste it.

    And, yes.  This does move into the realm of Eastern philosophy.
    But then again, it *is* the same God.

    Namaste'

    Tom Baker

    RE .35 (Tom)
    
    I have the "chicken or the egg" question when it comes to self evidence
    and the bible. Was the bible written (by man) as an "after the fact"
    explanation for things already apparent?  Or did the bible come before
    man (somehow written by God) as a description of things yet to come?  
    If the bible is an artifact, then it was probably written to fit the 
    evidence in a comfortable and acceptable way.  In other words I wonder 
    whether it was "designed" by man to "feel" right GIVEN man's nature and 
    the universe being what it is.
    
    >But then again, it *is* the same God.
    
    Not many see that.  Some catholic mystics do.  Men ilke Gahndi did. 
    
    I'm astonished when I read gurus trying to explain how the Atman is 
    "RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU" and then read in the NT that 
    "THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND".  It's the same thing.  Devaluing and 
    freeing oneself from earthly posessions and earthly thoughts are CORE 
    in both as well.  Loving all as oneself is core in both.  Etc... .  You
    can see the similarities go on and on if we just care to peer over the
    traditional walls built to separate them. 
    
    -dave
    
    
    

>    I have the "chicken or the egg" question when it comes to self evidence
>    and the bible. Was the bible written (by man) as an "after the fact"
>    explanation for things already apparent?  Or did the bible come before
>    man (somehow written by God) as a description of things yet to come?  
>    If the bible is an artifact, then it was probably written to fit the 
>    evidence in a comfortable and acceptable way.  In other words I wonder 
>    whether it was "designed" by man to "feel" right GIVEN man's nature and 
>    the universe being what it is.

    I believe much of the Bible was written by some very wise people - people
    who had some experience with the spirit.  There are some wonderfully
    sane and well founded ideas - suggestions - concepts that will help
    lead people to God.

>    >But then again, it *is* the same God.
>    
>    Not many see that.  Some catholic mystics do.  Men ilke Gahndi did. 

    I consider myself a mystic who is currently using Christian metaphors.
    I have had a *little* experience and looking at the Bible through that
    experience I see that much of what it says is true... with a twist.

    Those who experience things of the spirit can seldom find words to
    describe what actually went on.  After that, try translating the
    words from one culture to another.  What you come up with can only
    be understood on first reading by those who already have an understanding
    of what's going on.

    As an aside, the literal translation is often also helpful.  Therein
    lies much of the genius of the Bible.

    To get to a point where I had some idea where I should look for the
    spirit I had to take instruction from many.  Before this instruction
    I read the Bible like most people.  Someone had to open my eyes.  I
    didn't do this myself.

>    I'm astonished when I read gurus trying to explain how the Atman is 
>    "RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU" and then read in the NT that 
>    "THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND".  It's the same thing.  

    They're right.  This is the little experience I've had.  "IT" is 
    closer to you than your breath - so close you can't see it because
    we're *ALWAYS* looking past it.  If you can let go of the next
    moment - let it be what it will be - have enough faith that the
    world will keep spinning if you don't hold it together, just for
    that moment - be completely in the present - you will see.

>    Devaluing and 
>    freeing oneself from earthly posessions and earthly thoughts are CORE 
>    in both as well.  Loving all as oneself is core in both.  Etc... .  You
>    can see the similarities go on and on if we just care to peer over the
>    traditional walls built to separate them. 

    You can't let go of the moment without following these "rules".
    I don't see them as "commandments" but rather as directions for
    coming home.  Difficult to follow, but worth the trouble.

    Sorry this got so long.  Kind of a heavy way to start a day....

    Tom Baker

RE:      <<< Note 1218.28 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Christ Power & Light Co." >>>

>>    Sort of like saying, "Have faith.  It's all for the best."

>It has been my experience as a chaplain and as one who has experienced
>loss, pain, and tragedy that this is really not a very comforting thing
>to say or hear.  It comes across as dismissing and invalidating.

That's been my experience also Richard. Its very convenient phrase for
the speaker trying to comfort someone to utter, but has little comfort to
the one in pain.

My experience has been that although I cannot regard some disappointment,
or some tragedy (for example, my Mom's death from cancer, or the two 
miscarriages I've had even though my husband and I long for a child) as
being "for the best", I know that God can bring about good even out of these
things. The things are not good in and of themselves, but out of it, or
despite it, God will bring about good in my life. 

I can think of only two things to do. The first is heartfelt prayer. I have 
cried to God, and I have expressed my hurt, anger, and frustration to God. 
I have done the same with others, and privately on their behalf. I also 
believe I have seen some direct answers to my prayers.  The second thing I
can think of to do is to cry with someone in their loss, disappointment, or 
calamity.  In fact, the Bible even says we are to sit _with_ those in mourning,
and rejoice with others in their joy.  I don't have the reference with me at 
the moment but can look it up.

Leslie

.22 Tom Baker

I have see people use their religious beliefs to work through
hard times.  Other "religious" people just give up or take it
out on someone else.  The same can be said of non-religious people.

  Exactly. My point was that I have seen no difference between the two.

Yes, non-religious people do the same thing.  It's just that 
the spiritual folk I used to hang out with embraced it as
a living philosophy or philosophy of life.

  As do I. Again, I see no difference in the way people behave, or what 
  happens to them in life, based on religious belief.

Steve

.24 Jeff Benson

    But there's no doubt that God, the Creator of the universe, indeed exists 
    for all of nature testifies to this fact, to the foolish and the wise.  

Really? Where,exactly, is this overwhelming testimony? And if the very fact of 
existence is proof of God, then whom does God worship for his existence? And 
if God simply always was, then why can't nature simply have always existed? 
etc. etc. round and round...

As for the dentist, I would expect no pain from an omnipotent caring dentist.

I see that these points have been covered, I guess that's the problem with 
logging in every other week :^)

Steve

re Note 1218.40 by TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff:

> .24 Jeff Benson
> 
>     But there's no doubt that God, the Creator of the universe, indeed exists 
>     for all of nature testifies to this fact, to the foolish and the wise.  
> 
> Really? Where,exactly, is this overwhelming testimony? 

        Well, Steve, you must be one of the foolish!

        Bob

.41 Bob Fleischer

>    But there's no doubt that God, the Creator of the universe, indeed exists
>    for all of nature testifies to this fact, to the foolish and the wise.  

        Well, Steve, you must be one of the foolish!

But even as foolish as I am, I should be able to see it, according to the 
quote! :^)

Steve

Hi Steve,

>.24 Jeff Benson

 >   But there's no doubt that God, the Creator of the universe, indeed exists 
 >   for all of nature testifies to this fact, to the foolish and the wise.  

>>Really? Where,exactly, is this overwhelming testimony? 

It's all around us, in everything that exists.  As equally authoritatively this
is plainly stated in the Bible.  Check out the following Scripture.

Psalms 19:1

"The heavens are telling of the glory of God; 
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands."

In Paul's epistle to the Romans 1:18-20 we see:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God
made it evident to them.  For since the creation of the world His
invisible attributes, His eternal power, and divine nature, have been
clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that
they are without excuse."

Concerning the clarity of revelation, John Calvin, a Reformer and theologian 
of the 16th century, wrote the following in his "Institutes of the Christian 
Religion":

"The final goal of the blessed life, moreover rests in the knowledge of 
God (cf. John 17:3).  Lest anyone, then, be excluded from access to
happiness, he not only sowed in men's minds that seed of religion of
which we have spoken but revealed himself and daily discloses himself
in the whole workmanship of the universe.  As a consequence, men cannot
open their eyes without being compelled to see him.  Indeed, his 
essence is incomprehensible; hence, his divineness far escapes all
human perception.  But upon his individual works he has engraved
unmistakable marks of his glory, so clear and so prominent that even
unlettered and stupid folk cannot plead the excuse of ignorance."

And more from Calvin's "Institutes":


"There is within the human mind, and indeed by natural instinct, an
awareness of divinity.  This we take to be beyond controversy.
To prevent anyone from taking refuge in the pretense of ignorance,
God himself has implanted in all men a certain understanding of his
divine majesty.  Ever renewing its memory, he repeatedly sheds fresh
drops.  Since, therefore, men one and all perceive that there is a
God and that he is their Maker, they are condemned by their own
testimony because they have failed to honor him and to consecrate
their lives to his will.

Indeed even idolatry is ample proof of this conception.  We know
how man does not willingly humble himself so as to place other
creatures over himself.  Since then, he prefers to worship wood
and stone rather than to be thought of as having no God, clearly
this is a most vivid impression of a divine being.  So impossible
is it to blot this from man's mind that natural disposition would
be more easily altered, as altered indeed it is when man volunatrily
sinks from his natural haughtiness to the very depths in order to
honor God!

I confess, indeed, that in order to hold men's minds in greater
subjection, clever men have devised very many things in religion
by which to inspire the common folk with reverence and to strike
them with terror.  But they would never have achieved this if men's
minds had not already been imbued with a firm conviction about
God, from which the inclination toward religion springs as from
a seed...If, indeed, there were some in the past, and today not
a few appear, who deny God exists, yet willy-nilly they from time
to time feel an inkling of what they desire not to believe...Indeed,
they seek out every subterfuge to hide themselves from the Lord's
presence, and to efface it again from their minds.  But in spite
of themselves they are always entrapped.  Although it may
sometimes seem to vanish for a moment, it returns at once and
rushes in with new force.

Men of sound judgement will always be sure that a sense of
divinity which can never be effaced is engraved upon men's minds.
Indeed, the perversity of the impious, who though they struggle
furiously are unable to extricate themselves from the fear of
God, is abundant testimony that this conviction, namely that
there is some God, is naturally inborn in all, and is fixed deep
within, as it were in the very marrow...the world (something will
have to be said of this a little later) tries as far as it is able
to cast away all knowledge of God, and by every means to corrupt
the worship of him.  I only say that though the stupid harshness
in their minds, which the impious eagerly conjure to reject God,
wastes away, yet the sense of divinity, which they greatly wished
to have extinguished, thrives and presently burgeons.

Experience teaches that the seed of religion has been divinely
planted in all men.  but barely one man in a hundred can be
found who nourishes in his own heart what he has conceived; and
not even one in whom it matures, much less bears fruit in its
season [cf. Ps. 1.3].  Now some lose themselves in their own
superstition, while others of their own evil intention revolt
from God, yet all fall away from true knowledge of him...Indeed,
vanity joined with pride can be detected in the fact that, in
seeking God, miserable men do not rise above themselves as they
should, but measure him by the yardstick of their own carnal
stupidity, and neglect sound investigation; thus out of curiosity
they fly off into empty speculations.  They do not therefore
apprehend God as he offers himself, but imagine him as they have
fashioned him in their own presumption....Indeed, whatever they
afterward attempt by way of worship or service to God, they cannot
bring as tribute to him, for they are worshiping not God but a
figment and a dream of their own heart.  Paul eloquently notes this
wickedness; "Striving to be wise, they make fools of themselves"
[Romans 1:22].He had said before that "they became futile in their
thinking" (Rom. 1:21).  In order, however, that no one might excuse
guilt, he adds that they are justly blinded.  For not content with
sobriety but claiming for themselves more than is right, they
wantonly bring darkness upon themselves - in fact, they become
fools in their empty and perverse haughtiness.  From this it follows
that their stupidity is not excusable, since it is caused not only by
vain curiosity but by an inordinate desire to know more that is
fitting, joined with a false confidence."


jeff