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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

1216.0. "Where there is good to be done..." by THOLIN::TBAKER (The Spirit of Apathy) Fri Feb 09 1996 14:27

>Personally, I get the feeling we're all in big trouble every time I
>consider those who assert themselves to be Christ's representatives.

>Richard

    I don't think this is either cynical nor mean spirited but all to 
    accurate.  It makes me cringe to think my heritage is that of "witch
    burners", suspicious of anything they don't understand or control.
    
    Christians aren't alone in this.  Hindu "nationalism" is responible
    for the demolition of mosques, Islamic terrorism is responsible for
    many terrorist attrocities.  And, as the "watchers" in Israel have
    reported, the Jews are not without excess.
    
    When a group, any group, believes it has a "mandate from God" some
    tend to feel free to use whatever means they want.  Killing and
    raping to do "God's work" of "Ethnic cleansing".  Excess is not
    only accepted, it is turned into a virtue.
    
    People who are self-appointed "God's representitives" commit some
    of the worst attrocities.  They act without conscience because they
    rationalize that it's "God's work".  They need not take responsibility.
    
    This attitude is not limited to religious people.  I'm sure Hitler
    and the rest of his Nazis felt they were doing what was best for
    Germany.
    
    "Where there is good to be done, there is evil."
    
    I can't imagine anyone else has any thoughts about this :-)
    
    Tom Baker
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1216.1the human conditionLGP30::FLEISCHERwithout vision the people perish (DTN 227-3978, TAY1)Fri Feb 09 1996 15:1716
re Note 1216.0 by THOLIN::TBAKER:

>     "Where there is good to be done, there is evil."
  
        So when conservatives see the evil in liberalism, they are
        seeing (at least in part) something which is really there?

        So when liberals see the evil in conservatism, they are
        seeing (at least in part) something which is really there?

        So it's true -- our brothers and sisters really do have motes
        in their eyes?

        (Of course, Jesus warns us that *we* have beams.)

        Bob
1216.2THOLIN::TBAKERThe Spirit of ApathyFri Feb 09 1996 16:1526
>>     "Where there is good to be done, there is evil."
>  
>        So when conservatives see the evil in liberalism, they are
>        seeing (at least in part) something which is really there?
>
>        So when liberals see the evil in conservatism, they are
>        seeing (at least in part) something which is really there?

    There are a number of ways to interpret this phrase.  The most
    extreme is that by going out to do good, evil results.

    When I go out and try to "fix" the conservatives, I'm trying
    to mess with their karma.  I'm sticking my nose where it doesn't
    belong.  I'm pointing out the mote in their eyes.  I'm straying
    from my path.

    Our minister put it very well.  He likens it to being a 
    flashlight.  You can be the light of the world and do 
    well by shining by yourself, or you can shine it in
    someone's face.

    One may attract.  The other will likely repel and is decidedly
    unpleasant.

    Tom
1216.3CNTROL::DGAUTHIERFri Feb 09 1996 16:4536
I believe that violence rises from discontentment and that rises from
unfullfilled needs.  These perceived "needs" can be rooted in basic physical 
survival, competition in procreation or can be a simple lust for power and 
dominance.  They can be real or imagined.  And like it or not, violence is 
a time proven means to fullfill needs of all types.

Here in the US we advocate peace.  Of course we do.  Violence means change and 
when you're on top, you don't want things to change.  So we advocate peace (and
make damm well sure we wield a big enough stick to keep it that way).  But when
you're on the bottom, and when you're hungry and cold, and when all the
attempts at diplomacy and pleading have failed, "peace" goes right down the
toilet.  That's true of 99.99% of us humans as well as every other animal in
the world.  And when you see others being violent, responding to their
perceived needs, don't be too condescending because you'd probably do the very
same thing if you were in their position.  

So what about that other 0.001% ?

Lemme see... Jesus, Ghandi, St Francis, Mother Theresa, Ramana Maharshi, etc...
comprise that 0.001%.  They've liberated themselves from violence by 
erradicating their needs (at least their physical human needs).  All of them
lived extremely simple lives.  And what little they had they could easily give
up without hesitation.  If you need nothing, not even your physical survival,
you never have a desire to be violent.  

I may be wrong, but much of this idea is directly supported in Jesus' 
teachings regarding wealth and serving a sense of "need" over a simple life 
serving "God".  He goes beyond that when he mentions that the kingdom of God 
is "within" and "at hand" and to "be perfect".  And when he holds the notion of
a man surrendering his own life for that of another as the greatest act of
love, the idea of dissolving the need for maintaining "self" surfaces.   At 
this level, this stuff begins to merge extremely well with Eastern religion.

-dave