Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

 God *did* become one of us, in Jesus Christ.  He was rejected then, as He
 is rejected today.  God is not disconnected from our lives.  We disconnect
 ourselves from Him and the plan He has for our lives by being inticed by
 the worldly things tossed at us by the deceiver.

 Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die.  We want to live
 our lives the way we want, the heck with God's plan and His guidelines as
 to what is right and wrong, good and bad, pure and impure (guidelines which
 are proved over and over to be right), and yet we want God to bless us and
 reward us.

 I'm not surprised this song is such a big hit.  I'm sure MTV plays it
 10 times an hour to make sure the masses get a taste of what "they"
 feel God should be.


 Terrible shame.



 Jim

I've not heard the song.

I think it's great that young people are thinking about God at all.

Shalom,
Richard

    I don't think it is so much religious institutions alienating the
    rock-culture, but the latter alienating themselves from religious
    institutions.  There are places of worship geared towards young and old
    alike.
    
    The rock-culture is based on rebellion and sensualism, so it's no
    wonder that they reject the religious institutions- who do not say that
    such things are "okay".
    
    As far as the song goes, I have mixed feelings.  It is good that young
    folks are asking the questions (and this is asking about God), but it
    is not such a good thing to try to create a god in our own image. 
    
    It is neither good nor bad, from my perspective, though God CAN use
    such a song for a good purpose (regardless of the intentions of the
    song-writer, which I will not try to guess).  It is interesting that it 
    is so popular, though, as the song is basically unremarkable.
    
                                 
    
    -steve (who has heard this song) 

    Great topic!

    There's more than just one proper way to approach God.
    Fortunately, none of them require you to be perfect.
    Some people feel they can't approach God unless they are perfect.
    They aren't perfect.  They know it.  They don't approach God.

    God belongs to the righteous and the wretched.  The song
    depicts a God who is also wretched, hoping to be called
    by humanity.

    It's much easier to approach one who is asking for something
    that's easy to give than to approach someone that demands
    absolute obedience.  It's also much nicer.

    Remember: God is big.  *Real* big.  And there's more than
    just one side to Him/Her.
    
    As Richard said: It's nice the disposessed youth of today
    is thinking about God at all.

    Humility.  What a concept.

    Tom Baker

    RE: .3 Steve

>    The rock-culture is based on rebellion and sensualism, so it's no

    This song, at least, doesn't shoot for rebellion or sex.

>    is so popular, though, as the song is basically unremarkable.

    I disagree.  It resonates with a *lot* of people.  That's why
    it's so popular.  That's what make it remarkable.  Maybe even art.

    Tom

RE .1

>God *did* become one of us, in Jesus Christ...

A hypothetical perspective of the youth which finds the song popular...

You're talking about a man who lived some 2 millenia ago.  The primary source
of information about him is in a book which also claims the validity of a
7 day creation time for the universe, Noah's ark and the parting of the Red
sea.  This is the guy who an army of priests, pastors and ministers have been
raving "believe or burn" about.  And you ask these kids to accept Jesus on 
those terms?  

To use a line in the song, a line which would probably accurately reflect
their attitude...

    "Yeah, yeah- yeah, yeah yeah yeah"


> Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die.  We want to...

Jim, I'd expect that most of these kids don't even believe in God (deep down),
nevermind live by his guidelines, expect his grace, etc... .  If you want them
to accept God, guidelines, grace... you're going to have to start with the 
basics, like simple belief.   If I read the song correctly, the default state
of God in their eyes is "unseeable, unhearable, lives outside space and time,
untouchable....UNBELIEVABLE".  The song proposes a "believable" God.


> I'm not surprised this song is such a big hit.  I'm sure MTV plays it...

MTV is in business to make money.  If this song is popular, and their
advertizing sponsors get more exposure if they play it a lot, then they'll 
play it a lot.  If it falls into disfavor (as it will in time), then I'd 
expect them to drop it.  I don't expect that they care much what they play, 
as long as it sells.


> Terrible shame.

Yes.  What happened?  What is this song?  A cry for a believable God?


Re .2

>I think it's great that young people are thinking about God at all.

It is something.  A start perhaps?

 re:CNTROL::DGAUTHIER                                   
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE .1

>>God *did* become one of us, in Jesus Christ...

>A hypothetical perspective of the youth which finds the song popular...

>You're talking about a man who lived some 2 millenia ago.  The primary source
>of information about him is in a book which also claims the validity of a
>7 day creation time for the universe, Noah's ark and the parting of the Red
>sea.  This is the guy who an army of priests, pastors and ministers have been
>raving "believe or burn" about.  And you ask these kids to accept Jesus on 
>those terms?  

 No, I'm talking about someone who lives *today*.  I'm talking about the
 Jesus who said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten
 son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.." and "for God sent
 not His son to condemn the world, but that through Him the world might
 be saved".  For every raving preacher whom TV loves to tell us exemplifies
 Christianity, there are hundreds who speak of God's love, who share
 the hope that is only in Jesus Christ and who can show the lost directionless
 that there is love in Christ, there is love in the fellowship of believers
 that they'll never find elsewhere.

 I ask kids to accept Jesus on these terms.  Please show me where this
 world offers kids any hope whatsoever.  It does not.  They can't believe
 in politicians, athletes, teachers..day by day these role models fall.
 Unfortunately I am not permitted to step into a school and share Christ
 with them.  I'm reminded of (I believe it was) Smokey Robinson who was
 asked to come to a school and share how he kicked his drug habit..until
 they found out he was going to talk about his faith in Christ.  They
 asked him not to come.

>To use a line in the song, a line which would probably accurately reflect
>their attitude...

 >   "Yeah, yeah- yeah, yeah yeah yeah"

The response of a bunch of whiney, give me everything I want now as long
as I don't have to do anything kids that we have with us today.

>> Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die.  We want to...

>Jim, I'd expect that most of these kids don't even believe in God (deep down),
>nevermind live by his guidelines, expect his grace, etc... .  If you want them
>to accept God, guidelines, grace... you're going to have to start with the 
>basics, like simple belief.   If I read the song correctly, the default state
>of God in their eyes is "unseeable, unhearable, lives outside space and time,
>untouchable....UNBELIEVABLE".  The song proposes a "believable" God.

Of course they don't believe in God.  However, they are searching, as
we all do.  Unfortunately, they are taught in school that they are 
creatures descended from some bacteria that crawled out of the premordial
soup and there is no purpose to life but to be born, live and then 
cease to exist.  Why should they belive in God?  Everything the world
tosses at them tells them there is no God.  There is no right, there is
no wrong..do what you want!  Christians are just a bunch of mysogynist,
homophobic bigots who want to take away their right to do what they want
to do!  The few times I've watched network "sitcoms" they were full of
programming critical of Christians to the point of making us look like
intollerant, hypocritical buffoons.

There is a believeable God.  He's changed my life and millions upon millions
of lives throughout history.  Why not use MTV as a place to reach kids with
Christ.  Heck they use it to reach kids with everything else.  Show a few
programs in their "Real World" series where people's lives have turned around
as a result of coming to Christ. Let them see the real love available to them
at thousands of churches, through people their own age who have come to
Christ and found *real* hope.

>> I'm not surprised this song is such a big hit.  I'm sure MTV plays it...

>MTV is in business to make money.  If this song is popular, and their
>advertizing sponsors get more exposure if they play it a lot, then they'll 
>play it a lot.  If it falls into disfavor (as it will in time), then I'd 
>expect them to drop it.  I don't expect that they care much what they play, 
>as long as it sells.

MTV is, in my opinion, the single biggest tool used to discredit Christians
and Christianity today.

>> Terrible shame.

>Yes.  What happened?  What is this song?  A cry for a believable God?

See above.  There is a believable God.  They don't want Him.

Jim

	The song does not set any kind of standard. It asks questions. It talks
about if He had a name, it talks about seeing Him, and would you believe in Him
or not. The also mentions the following things:

                              God     - 11 times
                              Him/His - 8 times
                              Heaven  - 3 times


	How many songs out there ever mention Him once? How many songs that
mention Him in the past 10 years have broken into the top 10? (the song is
presently at #8 and rising)

	Now look at the dialogue about Him that has been taking place in this
notesfile. Do you think people are talking about Him anywhere else? My guess is
yes. Will it all be positive? Probably not. But could someone be saved due to
the conversation generated due to the song? Quite possibly. 

	I really think this is another tool God has used to get people talking
about Him, and to save some lives. I mean, how do you reach the rock culture?
With classical music? Nope... with music they understand. 


Glen

    >I really think this is another tool God has used
    
    Are you suggesting it's divinely inspired?

| <<< Note 1209.9 by CNTROL::DGAUTHIER >>>

| >I really think this is another tool God has used

| Are you suggesting it's divinely inspired?

	Judging by the talk, about God's name getting out there, I would have
to say yes. He chose a tool to get these two things done. Is the tool perfect?
Nope. But can God only use perfect things to get His message out? I believe the
answer to that is no.


Glen

 Yes, I'm quite certain that the Creator of the Universe, the savior of
 mankind would refer to Himself as a slob to try to get the attention 
 of those who reject Him.



 Jim

| <<< Note 1209.11 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "We shall behold Him!" >>>

| Yes, I'm quite certain that the Creator of the Universe, the savior of
| mankind would refer to Himself as a slob to try to get the attention
| of those who reject Him.

	Jim, did you miss the part where she said, a slob like one of us?
Meaning, we're also in the same catagory? That he is showing Himself to us as
one of us? Think about it. Wasn't Jesus just like everyone else...human?

	Me thinks you took the 1 word, and left off the rest of the context. I
mean, what better way to get to the rock generation people than by being one of
them? And of course, lastly, the whole song is one big question.



Glen

>	Jim, did you miss the part where she said, a slob like one of us?
>Meaning, we're also in the same catagory? That he is showing Himself to us as
>one of us? Think about it. Wasn't Jesus just like everyone else...human?


 At the risk of starting another rathole (in which I'll decline in advance
 to participate) Jesus was also God and was also sinless.  Nowhere in Scripture
 do I see God referring to Himself as a slob, or a sinner.  Do you?



>	Me thinks you took the 1 word, and left off the rest of the context. I
>mean, what better way to get to the rock generation people than by being one of
>them? And of course, lastly, the whole song is one big question.


 Then let MTV show some videos of Christian Rock people.  There's many of them
 out there..Rap, Alternative, Heavy Metal..Let some of this music that carries
 the message clearly.  

 

 Jim

    One interesting thing about the song is that it portrays God as being
    almost pityable (did I spell that right?).  "just a stranger on the
    bus... trying to make his way home.. up in heaven all alone...  no one
    calling on the phone).  
    
    It's one thing to be asked to love a parent, leader, creator!  That's not 
    always easy, especially if things in your life aren't going the way you 
    want them to go.  It's quite another thing to love someone who needs a
    friend and is lonely.  God has been excluded from their culture for so
    long that, well, maybe Osborne's saying he wants a friend.
    
    -dave
    
    

> Then let MTV show some videos of Christian Rock people.  There's many ....

If it would sell, I'm sure they would.  How many christian albums did Amy 
Grant make?  Small sales and mediocre success.  Then she starts composing
and playing popular stuff and WHAM!!!  Let's face it, it's the subject
matter.  Not MTV, not the artist and not the melodies.  God is simply not
popular to that audience... to our youth.   And I maintain that the ediface
of established religion is the big turn-off.  

One thing Osborne might be saying is "What if they (established religion)
are wrong?  What if God's different from what they say?  WHat if he's jus t
one of us?"  

-dave

| <<< Note 1209.13 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "We shall behold Him!" >>>


| At the risk of starting another rathole (in which I'll decline in advance
| to participate) Jesus was also God and was also sinless.  Nowhere in Scripture
| do I see God referring to Himself as a slob, or a sinner.  Do you?

	Again, the song is in question form. It could be refering to when Jesus
hung out with what was considered to be da slobs of da world.

| Then let MTV show some videos of Christian Rock people.  There's many of them
| out there..Rap, Alternative, Heavy Metal..Let some of this music that carries
| the message clearly.

	No reason why they all can't be used. I agree fully with you on this.

>> Then let MTV show some videos of Christian Rock people.  There's many ....

>If it would sell, I'm sure they would.  How many christian albums did Amy 
>Grant make?  Small sales and mediocre success.  Then she starts composing


 Why do we care if it sells or not?  People want to learn about God, don't
 they? 


>One thing Osborne might be saying is "What if they (established religion)
>are wrong?  What if God's different from what they say?  WHat if he's jus t
>one of us?"  


  Well, what does the Bible say?  




 Jim

    >Why do we care if it sells or not?
    
    Their sponsors care.  It's quite possibly just a matter of money.
    But since MTV is watched by so many, it also plays a role in defining
    the values of their inpressionable audience, a consequence MTV would
    probably rather do without because it puts them under a great deal of
    scrutiny.
    
    >People want to learn about God, don't they?
    
    Good question.  I certainly do and I believe you do too.  But how did
    we feel about this when we were 17?  I know I was more interested in
    going to college, chasing girls and playing hockey.  Maybe it's a matter 
    of maturity, as in the older you get the more interested you becomoe 
    in matters of religion.
    
    >Well, what does the Bible say?
    
    You're assuming they accept the Bible as truth.  From the song, where
    do you think God stands, or stood, prior to this?  You can't expect
    them to accept the Bible if they don;t even believe in God.
                                  
    
    
    

>    >Why do we care if it sells or not?
    
>    Their sponsors care.  It's quite possibly just a matter of money.
>    But since MTV is watched by so many, it also plays a role in defining
 

     precisely.  And this song speaks to the commonly held "we don't want
     your God" theme of today and is wildly successful as a result.



   
 Jim    
    
    

    Actually, Amy Grant, Sandy Patti, and others did quite well for
    themselves in Christian Rock.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1209.18 by CNTROL::DGAUTHIER >>>

| You're assuming they accept the Bible as truth.  From the song, where
| do you think God stands, or stood, prior to this?  You can't expect
| them to accept the Bible if they don;t even believe in God.


	The key word is IF. Right now, noen of us knows if the believe in Him
or not. 


Glen

    RE.19
    
    > precisely.  And this song speaks to the commonly held "we don't want
    > your God" theme of today and is wildly successful as a result.
      ^^^^
    
    emphasis on "YOUR".  Teenage rebellion is certainly nothing new.  They
    mey be looking for a God which is different from establishment's God
    (emphasis on DIFFERENT).  
    
    
    RE.20
    
    >Actually, Amy Grant... did quite well in Christian Rock.
    
    Relatively speaking, and using $$ as a metric, I believe she's doing a
    great deal "better" now.   Point is, her popularity appears to be tightly
    linked with the subject matter of her lyrics.  I was just using her as
    an example.  
        
    
    Re.21
    
    Yes. And the matter of belief is certainly a personal thing.  But if
    these kids challenge the basic notion of God, you can't expect them to 
    refer to the Bible as a definitive source of answers for their
    questions.  And I'll grant that there are exceptions.
    
    
    Re.22
    
    Thank You Richard. That's the passage I was looking for.
    
    
    
    Flash: 
    
     "One Of Us" climbs to #4.  Osborne is working on new gospel based
     material for her next CD.
    

    Took my boys rollerskating Saturday night.  They have Christian music
    from 5:30-7:30 and to be honest, I couldn't tell the difference.  
    
    Now I used to DJ a Christian radio show (College radio station), and
    there were alot of solid Christian pop songs out there.  As of late it
    seems they've intermingled their style with the worlds.  While
    rollerskating, I heard alot of mumbling and every once in awhile, I'd
    hear...mmmmmmmmmmblahblah....Jesus....blahblah.......
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1209.23 by CNTROL::DGAUTHIER >>>

| They may be looking for a God which is different from establishment's God
| (emphasis on DIFFERENT).

	Be real. I don't think you will find any two people on this planet who
have the same exact, 100% version of God. Unless you can say your version is
the only correct one, then you can't say the above and expect it to really mean
anything.

| But if these kids challenge the basic notion of God, you can't expect them to
| refer to the Bible as a definitive source of answers for their questions.  

	Then they are better off for it. What ever happened to God being the
definitive source for answers fo questions? Why would anyone ever put a book
above, or even equal to Him? 

| "One Of Us" climbs to #4.  

	It'll be tough for her to go much higher. The top 3 have been there for
an endless amount of time, and they don't seem to be letting go. In fact, 2 of
of the top 3 debut in the top 100 at #1. (Whitney & Mariah) So I suspect they
will be around for a while. :-)  Gangster of Love might slip back soon, though.
Can ya tell I keep clise tabs on the charts? :-)  (Madonna is at #8)



Glen

    "Just a slob like one of us"
    
    
    Perhaps a poor carpenter, smelly fisherman, or outcast shepherd.
    
    Known to hang around with gansters and prostitutes.   Refuses to wear a
    tie or jacket.   "Just a stranger on the bus".  Very suspicious looking
    and acting.  Most people instinctively decide to sit elsewhere. 
    Sometimes he is known to take his backback and hit the woods for 40-50
    days at a time.

    >        Be real. 
    
    I am.
    
    >I don't think you will find any two people on this planet who
    >have the same exact, 100% version of God. 
    
    Never said there were.  In fact, if the youth are searching for a 
    different kind of God, then this just adds to the diversity.
    
    Oh, maybe you mean that there is no such thing as "establishment's
    God".  Although they mey be different, they are similar and may be
    percieved as basically the same... (God = omnipotent, wonderful, great, 
    creator of all, unseeable, non-physical, etc...)  A rebellion against 
    that notion would equate to a more down to earth, knowable God who's not 
    that different from the rest of us (slobs).
    
    
    >Unless you can say your version is the only correct one, then you can't 
    >say the above and expect it to really mean anything.
    
    My "version" is impertinent to the discussion.  And what I'm saying is
    that it's normal for young people to go through a phase of rebellion. 
    If parents/establishment say "UP", they'll say "DOWN", just because
    it's the opposite and a means to establish their identity and
    individuality.  If they're told "God = omnipotent, non-physical
    creator", I wouldn't be surprized to hear them propose a God like
    you see in "One of Us".  That's all.
    
    -dave
    

	The God in, "One of Us" IS the same God you and I serve. I think
Patricia's note (-.2) explains it best.

	You seemed to have defined God a certain way. What I am saying is He is
not viewed the same by anyone, and none of us can possibly know if we have the
100% correct version.

Glen

    
    The fact of the matter is that God is not "one of us".  He became
    incarnate only to live and die on our behalf, to pay the debt for our
    sins.  Christ squelched His true glory and submitted to God's will, which
    was His will as well.
    
    I'm quite certain that the idea that God is "just like us" springs not
    from any sincere appreciation for or sure knowledge of God's actual
    person but as a *hope* that what we are, He is.  If He's just like us
    then we're okay.  
    
    The song is merely a sentimental caricature of puny hopes.  But it may
    indicate the despair of some of our youth.
    
    jeff

I think the song says more about those who feel it addresses their
questions and issues than it does about God. As has been pointed out,
its in question or speculation form, "What if ... ". 

As I read the words, I got the sense of someone wondering if God could
possibly be knowable on human terms,-- is it possible that God is not so
other from us human beings? It seems to want to put onto God some of the
things people often feel - lonliness, anonymity - nobody knows me, and
a certain sense of not being in control, adrift in the sea of life, 
floundering, trying to get home.

For someone who doesn't know God, it could be the first step towards looking
for God or the first step towards despair, depending on how they begin to 
answer those questions.

I feel a certain sadness for the people for whom this song speaks. I do
not feel any superiority, or sense of injustice, or even a need to defend
God and slam the lyrics. Rather, I have a desire for these people (the people
for whom the song speaks) to be able to know God as I know Him: both knowable 
on personal terms - someone who understands me and understands my situation 
in life, but One who has the power to give me real life, One who can and will 
change things for the better, One in whom I have both hope and the assurance 
that my hopes will be met.

Leslie

    
>    The song is merely a sentimental caricature of puny hopes.  But it may
>    indicate the despair of some of our youth.
    
 
  Indeed.  My youngest son is in a psychiatric hospital, having made an 
 attempt on his life more than once and I see the despair not only in him,
 but in all of the kids that are in the hospital.  My son sees and hears
 the message of the gospel, all the while living in a world that tells
 him that God is whomever you chose him/her/it to be, in a world that tells
 him there are no moral absolutes..right and wrong are up to the individual,
 newly created life is meaningless and can be destroyed as a matter of "choice".
 

 I sat in a therapy session last week where there were 8 kids, 6 girls
 and 2 boys.  One of the girls, 16, is pregnant for the second time, another
 17 has no boyfriends but many male "friends" with whom she has sex "because
 if they were my boyfriends by girlfriends would sleep with them too.." all
 the while her mother smiles and encourages her.

 I visit my son in the hospital and there are kids that have been there for
 weeks and all the times I've visited, I've never seen anybody visiting them,
 many of whom come from gangs, or drug and alcohol abuse situations or
 multisuicide attempts.

 These kids are screaming for something they can hold on to.  Screaming 
 for *real* love, screaming for someone to care.  And it is all right
 there in the gospel of Jesus Christ.  

 There is a real God, there is a God that loves them right now and
 who can take them and change their lives.  They can know without 
 a doubt, 100% certainty.  We are not, left here to twist in the 
 wind hoping that we "have it right".  We are not left here without
 some plan by which we should live our lives, we are not left here
 without hope.  It is all right there in the Word of God which this
 world chooses to toss on the scrap heap hoping for a god which is
 a "slob like us".




 Jim

    An interesting part of the lyrics seems to propose knowing Jesus
    through God (exactly opposite of what Christianity professes). It asks
    if you would believe in Jesus and all the saint and all the prophets if
    you were faced with God.  The fact that it mentions Jesus would seem to
    indicate some knowlege of what he was supposed to be about. The lyric 
    places a hypothetical belief in him 2ndary to a belief in God.  Lumping
    Jesus together with all the saints and prophets might be synonymous
    with "God's messangers" or perhaps "established religious dogma
    en-masse".  Any other thoughts on this part of the lyrics?
    
    Re .29
    
    >The song is merely a sentimental caricature of puny hopes.
    
    Ummmmmm..... describing a song which our youth hold in such high regard
    using words like these might not prove to be very productive in
    reconcilling the two views.  Maybe this sort of thinking is why a song 
    like this was created and became so popular?
    
    -dave
    
    

RE .31

> There is a real God, there is a God that loves them right now and...

You make this claim with certainty. I'm sure many others have given this news
to many disturbed youth, yet they still don't believe.  Why?  

I can't blame them?  
I see an army of politicians promise "A,B,C" yet deliver "X,Y,Z" once elected.
(and these are our leaders!).  False advertizment, lies and deciept abound. 
Why should they believe someone simply on their word?

They live in a world with 1001 proofs why science based reasoning works (cars, 
TVs, space shuttles, medecine...) yet are told to abandon science when it 
comes to matters of analyzing religion.  They're told to opt for faith in
these matters.  See the problem?

I don't have the answers but I can certainly understand their doubt and
reluctance to accept human direction on this matter.  Perhaps the song is a 
cry of hope, but I'd hardly call it puny.  

    RE: .31  

    Hi Jim,

    I'm sorry to hear about your son.  It must be very painful
    for you.

    However:

> These kids are screaming for something they can hold on to.  Screaming 
> for *real* love, screaming for someone to care.  And it is all right
> there in the gospel of Jesus Christ.  
>
> There is a real God, there is a God that loves them right now and
> who can take them and change their lives.  They can know without 
> a doubt, 100% certainty.  We are not, left here to twist in the 
> wind hoping that we "have it right".  We are not left here without
> some plan by which we should live our lives, we are not left here
> without hope.  It is all right there in the Word of God which this
> world chooses to toss on the scrap heap hoping for a god which is
> a "slob like us".

    I can't believe that most of this kids who have attempted suicide
    haven't heard this.  I'm sure most have heard it thrown out at them
    over the TV.

    For one reason or another the message hasn't gotten through.  They
    don't experience the "real love" you're talking about.

    Perhaps christians are turning many of the lost younger people
    off to Christianity.
    
    But, they figure, there's got to be *something* - so, like many
    generations before them, they are forced to reinvent themselves
    and their beliefs and their god to make it their own.  It's an
    evolutionary processes - they don't come up with a complete
    theology the first time.

    Are we, the older generation, somehow driving the estranged youth
    further away?

    Perhaps, Jim, when you have the opportunity to talk to these kids
    again you might ask, "Why haven't you turned to God, Jesus and
    the Bible for help?"  After that, don't argue your point but just
    listen.  Even if you *KNOW* the answer and they're getting it
    all wrong - just listen.  Even when they're done, don't give answers.

    I'd love to hear what they have to say.

    Tom

    
    There you go again, Dave, with your false dichotomy concerning faith
    and science.
    
    And Tom and Dave, you both seem to blame Christianity for the unbelief
    in our youth and in people in general.  Why?!
    
    jeff

>You make this claim with certainty. I'm sure many others have given this news
>to many disturbed youth, yet they still don't believe.  Why?  


 Why should they believe?  The media, when discussing Christianity, focus
 on the Pat Robertson's, Ralph Reeds', Jimmy Swaggart's etc, and uses them
 as the "official spokespersons" of Christianity.  Then we have them using
 "sitcoms" on TV to show how Christians are bumbling, hypocritical, intolerant
 bigots, and our schools which do all they can to minimize the role that 
 God can play in their lives.  They teach them that despite impossible
 mathematical odds life just happened to originate on this planet and in
 this universe by some colossal accident, and oh by the way that life 
 really has no meaning.  

 Thus, getting across the message of Jesus Christ to those who have been
 indoctrinated against it most of their lives is extremely difficult.



>I can't blame them?  
>I see an army of politicians promise "A,B,C" yet deliver "X,Y,Z" once elected.
>(and these are our leaders!).  False advertizment, lies and deciept abound. 
>Why should they believe someone simply on their word?


 Well, when they have the examples mentioned above why should they?  I agree
 100% with what you say above.  There are thousands of pastors/millions of
 everyday Christians who's lives have been changed by Jesus Christ..not
 by Pat Robertson, not by Ralph Reed..but Jesus Christ who cannot lie, who's
 promises cannot be broken.


 
>I don't have the answers but I can certainly understand their doubt and
>reluctance to accept human direction on this matter.  Perhaps the song is a 
>cry of hope, but I'd hardly call it puny.  


 Then what direction would they accept?  They have the divine direction 
 contained in the Word of God and plenty of vehicles delivering it.



 Jim

>    And Tom and Dave, you both seem to blame Christianity for the unbelief
>    in our youth and in people in general.  Why?!

    First, I'm merely bringing up the possibility, not blaming.
    
    Second, I'm pondering if *christians* have something to do
    with this alienation - not Christianity.
    
    If you turn on the TV on Sunday morning and there is a gaggle
    of TV preachers - many of whom are just plain weird - promising
    that unless you do exactly what they say and give them lots
    of money, you're going to burn in hell for eternity... and blah
    blah blah.
    
    If this is the only side of Christianity these kids are exposed
    to then there's no wonder they're turned off.  The high handed
    "yer gonna burn" attitude, after a while, just has a numbing 
    effect.  There's nothing personal about it.  I believe these
    "christians" are doing more harm than good.
    
    Our children's spirits remain uncalled.  In fact, they are driven
    further away.
    
    What if God existed on their level?  Remember, He's *real* big
    and can exist on all sorts of levels - why not theirs?
    
    Tom

    
>    If you turn on the TV on Sunday morning and there is a gaggle
>    of TV preachers - many of whom are just plain weird - promising
>    that unless you do exactly what they say and give them lots
>    of money, you're going to burn in hell for eternity... and blah
>    blah blah.
 

     Then turn off the TV and get into a church.  There are plenty of
     good TV preachers on Sunday mornings who don't beg for money, who
     don't make them promises, but who just speak of the love of God
     manifested in Jesus Christ.  Again, these aren't the ones we
     hear about though.

  
>    Our children's spirits remain uncalled.  In fact, they are driven
>    further away.
 

     Would you prefer that children be lied to about the Bible's mention
     of hell, btw?  Understand I don't support the "yer gonna burn" method
     of delivery, however, Hell is a reality according to Scripture (and
     how to avoid it) as well as Heaven.

   


 Jim     

 I will endeavor to remain out of the discussion henceforth.





 Jim

     I think one of the problems with people is that when we speak,
     we say either 1) what we think is right or 2) what we think other
     people want to hear, but when we act, we do what we want. This
     creates falsehood, hypocrisy, and cynicism. But that is not all
     there is in the world, nor does it necessarily characterize
     Christians or Christianity.  

     There is real love in the world. It includes love for the people 
     of the world by Christians, but we don't often see this publicized.  
     We don't often see good news of any kind in the news. Its the disasters, 
     catastrophes, crimes, and scandels that most often make the headlines.
     Good exists, but tends to be less visible.     

     In the congregation I am a part of, there is a real feeling that we 
     are there for each other.  An example of the difference genuine caring
     can make can be seen by the way my friend Boris came to know the Lord. 
     Boris came over from Russia with his family a couple of years ago,
     partly because of harrasment they were receiving as Jews. Boris lost an 
     eye as a result of some of that harrasment. His wife, and her parents 
     became believers in Yeshua (Jesus) in Russia, but Boris did not accept 
     Him as the Messiah and as his redeemer.  However, he did come to our 
     worship services with his family. Nobody pressured him or made any overt 
     evangelistic attempts, but he was accepted and loved. He heard the 
     scriptures, listened to the messages, and saw the joy and honesty in the 
     prayers and music.  Most of the family's personal property was left 
     behind when they immigrated. People in the congregation helped furnish 
     their apartment, outfit their kitchen, helped them financially, invited 
     them to their homes, and visited them in their apartment as friends. The 
     visits aren't easy because of the language issues but there is a real 
     sense of welcome amongst all. Over time Boris came to believe God and 
     know Yeshua as his Lord. Part of what drew him to God was the the caring 
     and love the congregation showed him.

     Yes, the church, by this I mean people belonging to local congregations
     and denominations, and church leadership and hierarchies, have made 
     mistakes, and bear a responsibility for some of the alienation many
     feel from God and from church. But there's more to it than that. The
     world is a complex place.

     Leslie

     PS. I wouldn't describe the song, or the writer's thoughts and feelings
         as puny. The song represents personal experience, it may be true in 
         what says about the writer's & others experiences and feelings,
         but it is not the truth about who God is. 

Re.35

>    There you go again, Dave, with your false dichotomy concerning faith..

Oh no, let's not go down that rathole again. 

Regardless, despite me and my thoughts on this (and I'll admit they're
unusual), science and religion are usually seen at odds on many fronts
(Big Bang vs 7-day creation... Evolution vs Creationism, etc... .).  Doesn't
matter if the conflict is real or not (I think it is, you think otherwise).
what's important is that they're seen at odds.  On the one hand we're feeding
kids science so that they can go about their everyday lives using and analyzing
the material world.  And on the other hand we tell them to use religion to 
guide them in other ways and answer the "big questions".  This could very 
well sound like a mixed message (it does to me).  It could be a basis for 
dismissing the advise.


Re.36/.37

Yes, exactly.  There is no clear message coming from the church(es).  They all
claim to have the "hot line to heaven" and what makes it 1000 times worse is
when they pass the donation basket around in the middle of the sermon.  Kids 
will immediately see this in a negative way.  Seems that everyone's trying to 
hustle everyone else out of their $$... selling them a bill of goods.  The 
fire-n-brimstone fear tactics make it even worse.  They're being deluged with 
a hundred different messages from a hundred different sources, none of which 
they can trust.  It's no surprize they're dismissing the whole mess and 
starting from scratch.  Getting back to the lyrics, they're starting with 
questioning a simple belief in God (IMO) (bypassing Jesus, saints, prophets....
religion).


>They teach them that despite impossible
>mathematical odds life just happened to originate on this planet and in
>this universe by some colossal accident,

You ought to read a few articles on the most recent developments on this.  The
scientific pieces to that puzzle are falling together rather quick of late,
reducing "impossible odds" to something not so imposible indeed!


>There are thousands of pastors/millions of
>everyday Christians who's lives have been changed by Jesus Christ

... and by a study of Bhuddism, Islam, other religions.  And word has it that
there are even a few atheists and agnostics who seem to be able to cope quite
well without religion at all!


>Then what direction would they accept? 

Whatever makes sense or what works for them.

As I said, I don't have the answers.  But if I had to come up with one, I'd
just back off and let them develop their own beliefs (what makes sense to
them).  If they're really seaking the truth, and God's listening, he'll take it
from there (we should stay out of it).  I'd nurture curiusity, debate,
objectivity and experimentation over leaps of faith or forced acceptance of
dogma.  But that's just me.

    It has occured to me that I ought to mention that people could
    probably do a lot less speaking about what Christianity is all
    about, and a great deal more time actually doing what Christianity
    is all about. I know I could.

    Leslie

    RE: .41 Dave(?)

    I agree with much of what you say but disagree about other things.

>(Big Bang vs 7-day creation... Evolution vs Creationism, etc... .).  Doesn't

    The creation story describes our relationship with God.  This
    knowledge is far more important in our day to day living than
    knowing how the Earth actually came into being.  (Isn't there another
    note about this somewhere?)

>Yes, exactly.  There is no clear message coming from the church(es).  They all
>claim to have the "hot line to heaven" and what makes it 1000 times worse is
>when they pass the donation basket around in the middle of the sermon.  Kids 
>will immediately see this in a negative way.  Seems that everyone's trying to 
>hustle everyone else out of their $$... selling them a bill of goods.  The 
>fire-n-brimstone fear tactics make it even worse.  They're being deluged with 
>a hundred different messages from a hundred different sources, none of which 

    That's not quite what I meant to say.  There are many wonderful
    churches.  It's just that many folks who are alienated don't
    know about them.  Those churches are quiet and not "newsworthy". 
    
    I think highly of the church I go to.  We don't need to hear about
    the "fire" - we've all had our share of getting burned.  The message
    we get is of acceptance and forgiveness.  I am humbled.  I have
    faith that if I get too complacent, God will provide...
    
>>There are thousands of pastors/millions of
>>everyday Christians who's lives have been changed by Jesus Christ
>
>... and by a study of Bhuddism, Islam, other religions.  And word has it that
>there are even a few atheists and agnostics who seem to be able to cope quite
>well without religion at all!

    True, but I can't help but think there's something wonderful missing
    from the atheists' lives.  (This is *NOT* to say I need to "fix" them)

>>Then what direction would they accept? 
>
>Whatever makes sense or what works for them.
>
>As I said, I don't have the answers.  But if I had to come up with one, I'd
>just back off and let them develop their own beliefs (what makes sense to

    That may work for you.  I took that path for a while but found
    that my kids *wanted* to know what I believed.  I made a lot of
    mistakes in forming my beliefs.  Why shouldn't they benefit from
    my mistakes?  One can guide without being dogmatic.

    After I explained what I believed to my daughter she asked, "Do
    I have to believe that?"  (she's 12) I about fell over!  I replied,
    "You believe what you believe.  I can't make you believe one way
    or another."  I guess that leaves room for discussion.
    
    Well, that's enough from me for now.  Jim, you don't *have* to
    stop responding to this note.
    
    Tom

 re .42

 Agreed Leslie (and me too!)




 Jim

| <<< Note 1209.44 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "We shall behold Him!" >>>


| Agreed Leslie (and me too!)

	ahem...Jim.... you wrote in this topic! :-)

	What I'm curious to, as I haven't really seen it, but are there the
kind of people you talk about (don't ask for money, etc, never hear about them)
on any of the Christian networks that are out there in cable land? I see Pat
Robertson once in a while, but I can only take so much before I have to turn
it. 

	If you know of any of those preachers that are the ones we never hear
about, list the times they appear, if they are on a major cable carrier (like
FAM has the 700 club on at 10:00 pm I believe, etc) Cuz I for one would be
interested to see if there are any out there, and what they have to say.


Glen

 Here I am writing again :-/



 Charles Stanley who's program is called "In Touch" appears on the Family
 network at 8AM I believe.  He no longer is on in the evening.  There is
 an opportunity to buy tapes at the end of the program.


 D. James Kennedy who appears on "The Choral Ridge Hour".  He's also on 
 at 8AM Sunday mornings on Ch50 in Derry NH.  Lately I have heard him talking
 about contributions, but with an explanation as to what they are used for,
 and it is not a major part of the program.

 Both of whom preach the Word quite clearly, though there are some who have
 a problem with Dr. Kennedy.

 Charles Stanley is a good ol' Baptist preacher who preaches with a great
 deal of love.



 Jim

    re .43
    
    With regard to the creationism thing... what you've said is your cut on
    the topic.  Opinions range from word literal belief in the biblical
    accounting to a purely symbolic interpretation to outright disbelief.
    And they ALL fall under the guise of being Christian!  See what I mean
    about lack of a clear message?  (Yes, there are other notes on this)
    
    >That may work for you.
    
    I hope that it's "work"ing in lieu of anything better.  I suppose we'd 
    have to define what we mean by "work".  Just as it's very possible for 
    someone to make themselves ill by willing it, I believe it's also very 
    possible for someone to make religion "work" by believing in it.  They
    tend to attribute all good fortune as God's grace and all bad fortune
    as a trial or grace in disguise.  It's spooky.
    
    -dave

	Thanks, Jim, for the info. If I ever get a day off work again (and I
will), I'll be able to check out one of the 2. 

	How come with the Christian network, that there aren't more credible
people out there on tv? Is this more than just a non-christian big money thing?

>	How come with the Christian network, that there aren't more credible
>people out there on tv? Is this more than just a non-christian big money thing?


 What Christian network?  I know there's CBN but in my opinion they spend more
 time on Robertson's agenda and a questionable doctrine.  I believe he is
 doing some good things, but there is too much political stuff and not enough
 "People need the Lord" stuff.  Then there's the Trinity Network which is
 of questionable doctrine.

 The Worship Channel is a new one, and I find it quite refreshing.  I'm not
 sure if they are on where you are Glen, but in my area the broadcast from
 10PM-sometime in the AM on Ch 60 from Merrimack NH.  They teach from the
 Word, offer live call in counseling and music.  Excellent programming where
 the emphasis is not on political issues/agendas..just the Word of God.



 Jim

	Jim, the only station we get from New Hampshire is channel 11. So all I
get to see is Dr. Who. :-)

	It's a shame that the stations that could actually get the message out
don't really do it. 


Glen

"One of Us" rises to #2.

| <<< Note 1209.51 by CNTROL::DGAUTHIER >>>

| "One of Us" rises to #2.

	Which music listings are you listening to?



Glen

    I happened to catch the end of MTV's countdown and stayed with it to
    see where the song wound up this week.
    
    -dave

	Ok.... I was wondering how you were coming up with different numbers
than me. I know there are a ton of countdowns out there today, unlike the Casy
Kasum Billboard American Top 40 countdown there used to be. :-)

	When I was listening to this song tonight, I heard something that
really does help show that the song knows God is tops. Just look at the 1st
verse:

| If God had a Name, what would it be and would You call it to His face if
| You were faced with
| Him in all His Glory, 

	All His glory? Doesn't that give Him praise?

| Yeah, yeah- God is Great
| Yeah, yeah- God is Good

	Both things here are giving praise to God, aren't they?

| If God had a Face, what would it look like 

	It aknowledges that God's face has not been seen, which keeps it in
line with the Bible, doesn't it?

| and would You want to See if seeing meant that You would have to Believe in 
| things like Heaven and in Jesus and the Saints and all the Prophets and...

	Doesn't this keep in line with the Bible? 





Glen

    The song is a question. Those who have no questions, or who believe
    that there are no answers to any question except in the Bible, have no
    reason to listen to the song. Period.
    
    Let it go.

>    no reason to listen to the song. Period.

Except, maybe, for entertainment....   :-)

| <<< Note 1209.56 by ONOFRE::SKELLY_JO >>>


| The song is a question. 

	The song does ASK questions, yes. But it does state up front basic
truth's that Bible believing Christians have. (and remember, John, I'm not a
Bible believing person) And that was what I was pointing out.

| Those who have no questions, or who believe that there are no answers to any 
| question except in the Bible, have no reason to listen to the song. Period.

	That has to be one of the most unbelievable things I have heard from
you. Who are you to say they have no reason to listen to it, period? Simple
answer is, you can't say that and have it be equal to reality. 



Glen

>	That has to be one of the most unbelievable things I have heard from
>you. Who are you to say they have no reason to listen to it, period? Simple
>answer is, you can't say that and have it be equal to reality. 

    
>Glen
    
    
    Glen, a question for you.  Since you believe "reality" exists according
    to your statement above, what is "reality"?
    
    jeff

    RE .55
    
    I question the meaning of the would be praise in the song.  I wonder
    if it's being used to reject dogma which they've been spoon fed,
    question, and now reject.  "Ya-ya-ya" is a typical response to somone 
    who's lecturing you with a message you've heard before and don't want
    to hear again, as in...
    
    Mother: "Johnny, wash your hands before you sit at the dinner table"
    Johnny: "Ya-ya-ya"
    
    I realize the text of the lyrics is spelled "Yeah" but the tone in the
    song might well suggest the alternative I propose here.  The so
    called praise is immediately followed up with a question/suggestion
    that God might be an equal to us, stranger on a bus, trying to go home,
    where he'll be there all alone.  The sugestion makes GOd seem more
    pitiable than praisable.  I don't mean that in a derogatory way.  It
    just might be a means to make God easier to relate to and love as
    opposed to an omnipotent, incoporeal being.
    
    I think the song is a form of cry, looking for a God that cen be
    related to.  Something different than what they're been force fed
    in Sunday school... their response to which might be "Ya-ya-ya".
    
    
    RE .56
    
    I think it's far more than a question.  The questions it ask apparently
    sparked a huge response.  Clearly, something else is going on here. 
    
    But you're right, on a personal level, if you believe everything
    knowable is contained in the bible, there's no need to look ferther.
    On a more extroverted level, if you're at all interested in why a huge 
    sector of the younger population, am atheistic or agnostic sector, 
    suddenly finds interest in God, you might want to try to understand 
    what caught their attention.  If you're interested in helping them move 
    closer to God, you might be very interested!
    
    
    
    RE .57
    
    >Except, maybe, for entertainment....   :-)
    
    Good base solo in there, huh? :-)
    
    
    -dave
    
    

    One more thing before I go home... Has anyone seen the video?  
    
    It has some very interesting imagery.  The major points I remember
    are...
      
    1) Several common people would step up to a Michelangelo's Creation
    mock-up of God and place their face in the hole where God's face was
    (you know, those hollowed out face billboard things at carnivals)
    
    2) Several glimpses of what we might consider "undesirables"... street
    people, obese people, etc...  while the lyrics were saying "what if God
    was one of us"
    
    3) A small boy making "snow angles" in the sand on a beach.
    
    4) And of course several close-ups of Joan (she ain't too tough to look
    at :-) )
    
    
    The scene in point 1 was very powerful and was repeated several times.
    Point 2 makes one consider or reconsider how we treat and think of
    others.  If God was one of "them", are we treating "Him" properly?
    
    -dave

| <<< Note 1209.59 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>


| Glen, a question for you.  Since you believe "reality" exists according
| to your statement above, what is "reality"?

	jeff, maybe we should talk about reality, huh?

| <<< Note 1209.60 by CNTROL::DGAUTHIER >>>

| I realize the text of the lyrics is spelled "Yeah" but the tone in the
| song might well suggest the alternative I propose here.  

	When I first heard the song, at the part that does sound like you've
talked about, I too thought the same thing. Maybe that is the intention, I
don't know. But the yeahs before it (God is Great....etc) don't seem to be in
the same tone. They seem to be genuine to me. But, not being the author of the
song, I couldn't really tell ya. :-)

| pitiable than praisable.  I don't mean that in a derogatory way.  It
| just might be a means to make God easier to relate to and love as
| opposed to an omnipotent, incoporeal being.

	I took it like that, actually. That God can relate to each one of us.
We're all on different levels, not the same plane. So I always got the
impression with the slob etc stuff, that the author might be saying that God
can relate to us on our own level. 

	The hard part is us relating to Him on the level He might like! :-)



Glen

| <<< Note 1209.61 by CNTROL::DGAUTHIER >>>


| 4) And of course several close-ups of Joan (she ain't too tough to look
| at :-) )

	I find she is quite attractive. But I also find myself gazing at the
nose stud she has. :-)

	Dave, the, "if we are treating Him right" is a pretty good analogy. 


Glen

.61

>    One more thing before I go home... Has anyone seen the video?

No.  Haven't heard the song yet either.  Guess I'm out of touch.

>    The scene in point 1 was very powerful and was repeated several times.
>    Point 2 makes one consider or reconsider how we treat and think of
>    others.  If God was one of "them", are we treating "Him" properly?

Let me tell you about Richard Deersmith.  You've never heard the name?
I'm not surprised.

Forgive me if this entry derails your topic, Dave.

As I have heard it chronicled, Richard Deersmith entered a local church
one Sunday morning a couple of weeks ago and demanded the collection plates.
On this occasion, or perhaps another, Deersmith claimed to be Jesus Christ,
which will give you some idea of Deersmith's mental stability and acuity.

The police were summoned.  Deersmith ended up in the men's restroom of the
church.  Three officers entered the restroom.  Allegedly, Deersmith drew a
"large knife" and wouldn't obey police orders to discard it.  Deersmith was
killed by police gunfire at close range.

Deersmith was one of the city's indigents.  The church is across the street
from a soup kitchen.  Deersmith had a police record, which I understand did
not include crimes of violence.  According to people who knew Deersmith,
he'd started carrying a knife only recently, since being beaten up.

The officers have been exonerated of any wrongdoing.

Compare this story to that of John Dupont and, as the the saying goes, "You
do the math."

Shalom,
Richard

 How sad..and Dupont (allegedly) committed murder and this man stole money,
 presumably for food/clothing?



 Jim

    or because he believed the money changers should be kicked ou of the
    temple.
    
    This is sad and scary as Deersmith apparently had the same mental
    illness my brother has.  He had all the symptoms of a paranoid
    schizophrenic, and the police (trust me on this having seen them in
    actin before) have no clue as to how to handle these humans.  20 or so
    minutes of being left alone and he may well have become totally meek
    and never known that he blew up.
    
    
    
    

    Without knowing more about the circumstances of the Deerfield shooting,
    you can't blame the police for any wrong doing.  An unstable person
    trapped in a situation like that sometimes try to kill him/herself
    Lunging at an armed policeman with a daggar might have been a
    (successful) suicide attempt.  But that too is just conjecture.  If the 
    minister didn't want this guy to be confronted by the police, he never 
    should have called them. And I can't believe that the police would kill 
    someone in a situation like that unless it was in self defense.  
    
    They should have given him the money and let him walk away.
    
    -dave

    .68
    
    Dave,
    
    	The police are not making public many details of what happened
    in the men's restroom.
    
    	All I'm trying to point out is that we seem quite willing to "wait
    out" someone with money and clout, less so those on the margins.
    
    	From what I understand of the story, Deersmith was never handed
    over the money he demanded.
    
    	It was the church secretary who phoned the police.  I've heard that
    she now regrets doing so, never imagining that it would result in the
    unwelcomed man's death.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

 for once, that I can recall, I find myself in total agreement with Richard,
 based on what has been presented.




 Jim

    >        All I'm trying to point out is that we seem quite willing to "wait
    >    out" someone with money and clout, less so those on the margins.
    
    Ya.  It's like that Rodney King tragedy.  If he had been Joe Blow the 
    powerful white billionaire, things would have been very different.
    
    Sounds to me like this Deersmith really needed a lot of help.  Wrong
    combo of events took their course...
    
    
    (Deersmith + knife) * (police + guns)
    ------------------------------------- = disaster
            (hopeless situation)
    
    
    (doing the math :-) )
    
    -dave
    
    

I have heard that when the youth of the church learned of the man who claimed
to be Jesus Christ and who was killed on church premises, one of them asked,
"What if he really *was* Jesus?"

One of us, you ask?  One of us?  The children ask, too.

Richard

    When Jesus shows up for the second time, there will be NO question about 
    his identity whatsoever.
    
    King of kings and lord or lords.
    
    
    -steve 

	Steve, with the exception of your title, I agree with your note
completely. 


Glen

Re: .79 Richard

> one of them asked, "What if he really *was* Jesus?"

If Jesus came to earth as a knife-wielding lunatic and was shot dead by
the cops, we're probably *all* in trouble.

				-- Bob

    Didn't Jesus say something along the lines of "When you do this to the
    least of your brothers you do this to me"?   I know it was spoken in
    regard to giving, but would it not also apply in regard to hurting?  
    Should not our responses to people... even the least of our brothers 
    (read Deersmith)... be in accordance to that teaching?  
    
    It was said that Deersmith was not Jesus, despite his proclamation to the 
    contrary.  Well, maybe he wasn't.  But should he have been treated as
    if he were?  And how *should* that be?
    
    -dave
    

    > When Jesus shows up for the second time, there will be NO question
    > about his identity whatsoever.
    
    Isn't that what they said the first time?
    
    Eric

    > When Jesus shows up for the second time, there will be NO question
    > about his identity whatsoever.
    
    >>Isn't that what they said the first time?
    
    >>Eric

Hi Eric,

The second time won't be like the first.  The first time Jesus came as
a human baby in very humble circumstances.  The second time will be
different.  Jesus is quoted below in Matthew 24:29-31.

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be
darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall
from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then
the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes
of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the
clouds of the sky with power and glory.  And He will send forth His angels
with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four
winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

jeff

    
    No, Dave, it wouldn't apply to "hurting" a violent criminal since the 
    context is providing for someone's basic needs such as food, warmth,
    etc.
    
    jeff

    Re .79
    
    It "wouldn't" apply is different than it "might" not apply.  As I
    indicated in .76, I realize the context is different, but Jesus said 
    nothing to indicate that his teaching could not or should not also be 
    applied in the "hurting" context.  If it did not apply, then there'd be 
    an implied exception to the teaching...
    
    "...you do this to me, except in the case where..."
    
    One of the things I admire in the NT is the simplicity of Jesus'
    teachings.  They were simple and lacked complicationg exceptions.  I 
    would hesitate to thing there were exceptions in this case.
    
    Another view would be to see someone like Deersmith as someone in great 
    need.  In this case, the teaching would apply directly.  
    
    
    

>    Re .79
    
>    It "wouldn't" apply is different than it "might" not apply.  As I
>    indicated in .76, I realize the context is different, but Jesus said 
>    nothing to indicate that his teaching could not or should not also be 
>    applied in the "hurting" context.  If it did not apply, then there'd be 
>    an implied exception to the teaching...
 
    Yes, Jesus said everything to directly refute your idea.  He was
    speaking in a context and He said specifically the items for which He was 
    making a point and those items were only related to providing for the most
    basic human needs in the context of spiritual encouragement.
    
    >One of the things I admire in the NT is the simplicity of Jesus'
    >teachings.  They were simple and lacked complicationg exceptions.  I 
    >would hesitate to thing there were exceptions in this case.
    
    Interesting comment.  Jesus's teachings were not considered simple in
    His day.  And I don't consider them simple today.  And since your
    premise is wrong considering the teaching of these passages your
    conclusion has to be wrong too.
    
    >Another view would be to see someone like Deersmith as someone in great 
    >need.  In this case, the teaching would apply directly.
    
    Deersmith was in great need.  What he needed was to be controlled since
    he had lost control.  What he needed was to have his evil aggression
    subdued.  It is unfortunate that he was such a perceived threat to
    innocent life that his lack of self-control and his violent aggression 
    resulted in his own death.
    
    
    jeff
    
    

    Jeff, have you ever tried BACK40::SOAPBOX ?
    
    -dave

<---yes, he has....

    
    To answer your question, Dave, yes I have played in Soapbox before. 
    What might I deduce from you question, pray tell?
    
    jeff

.75

>If Jesus came to earth as a knife-wielding lunatic and was shot dead by
>the cops, we're probably *all* in trouble.

Yeah, compared to the face-value depiction of Christ of the Apocalypse,
this guy was pretty meek.

Personally, I get the feeling we're all in big trouble every time I
consider those who assert themselves to be Christ's representatives.

Richard

>Personally, I get the feeling we're all in big trouble every time I
>consider those who assert themselves to be Christ's representatives.

>Richard

    Are you including yourself in this thinly-veiled and crude criticism?
    
    jeff

.86

>    Are you including yourself in this thinly-veiled and crude criticism?

I am.  And I think it not crude.

Richard

>    Are you including yourself in this thinly-veiled and crude criticism?

>>I am.  And I think it not crude.

>>Richard
    
    Well, I think it is crude in that your statement fails to qualify or
    demonstrate your meaning clearly.  It suggests an unwarranted and
    excessive cynicism concerning the sanctification of Christ's followers.
    
    jeff

    
    St. Paul was pretty cynical too. We know that there will be many who
    think of themselves as Christ's followers, whom Christ will repudiate.
    So perhaps a little cynicism about being self-assured in our personal
    sanctification is not out of order.

    Eric

    
    Since it is the Lord who sanctifies, cynicism really isn't warranted at
    all.  And I have never recognized cynicism in Paul's epistles, quite
    the contrary really. It was His ardent assurance that He was Christ's
    and that Christ would ultimately bring him to perfection that made Paul
    finally very optimistic.
    
    jeff

    re: .75
    
    That's putting it mildly...  

    What's wrong with the title Glen?  I think it is accurate.
    
    In any case, it's nice to have an agreement now and then.  8^)

| <<< Note 1209.88 by ALFSS1::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>



| Well, I think it is crude in that your statement fails to qualify or 
| demonstrate your meaning clearly.  

	I think Richard knew exactly what he meant. :-)  Btw, from reading
Richard's notes in the past, I knew it included himself. Richard isn't one to
ever put himself above anyone else. 

	But what you did in return, Jeff, was perfect. You did not know it
meant him as well. So you asked him. That makes perfect sense. 

	But then it does NOT make perfect sense that you would put what you did
above. Everyone who writes something more than likely feels that they have
explained themselves perfectly. But in a forum such as this, it isn't always
the case. So by asking, you find the answers. It appears that what you said
above, you have painted Richard to look crude, because YOU did not understand
him. Remember when I asked you recently about if you put yourself into a
certain catagory that was above others? You said no, you did not mean that. So
because I did not know what you meant at the time, did that make you crude? If
you say no, then you should apologize to Richard. If you say yes, then I can at
least see where you are coming from.



Glen

| <<< Note 1209.92 by ACISS2::LEECH "Dia do bheatha." >>>

| What's wrong with the title Glen?  I think it is accurate.

	Which note are you referring to?????

| In any case, it's nice to have an agreement now and then.  8^)

	Miracles....they do happen! :-)

.88
    
>    Well, I think it is crude in that your statement fails to qualify or
>    demonstrate your meaning clearly.  It suggests an unwarranted and
>    excessive cynicism concerning the sanctification of Christ's followers.

Well, I don't agree with your assessment, but I appreciate your willingness
to make the effort to chasten me.

Richard

Hey!  Wait a minute!  Some of my best friends are crude!   :-)

| <<< Note 1209.96 by THOLIN::TBAKER "The Spirit of Apathy" >>>

 -< birds of a feather... >-

	make great pillows

    Richard Dearsmith's plight got to me in a really strong way.  You see
    My brother is a schitzophrenic and before we got him into treatment
    (involuntarily at first) he said and did some really of the wall things
    that had the police in two districts hopping.  Fortunately for him and
    for us, he was over the manic part of the seizure-like rage that can
    occur and back to the normal meek person he is when the police arrived
    each time.  With the truly mad, sometimes it is best just to wait out
    the rage and then move in when the person becomes calm again.  It
    usually only take a couple of extra minutes, but what would the danger
    have been to cut off the water to the bathroom and the electricity if
    they thought he could harm himself with it, and just wait for a bit, or
    talking calmly to the person in the locked room until he relaxed?
    
    Having been there, I know how scary it is to deal with a large man who
    you don't know what direction he is going to go for a few minutes.  I
    feel for the police, but I hope there will be further training on how
    to eal with the metally ill before another human in the throes of
    personal hell is killed.  I cried when I read the report, for Dearsmith
    sounded much like my brother before he received appropriate treatment
    and medications.
    
    As my partner Frank says, there must be thousands on the street like my
    brother.  He was fortunate in having family that actually could act on
    his behalf when his private demons took control of his life.  
    
    meg
    
    meg

Mark Twain once said that when one's only tool is a hammer, every problem
looks like a nail.

There's a rumor that the barrel of the gun was pressed against Deersmith's
body when it was fired.

I would also like to see the tazer considered in situations where the
subject is suspected to be mentally ill.

A friend of mine knew Deersmith and is utterly certain that if he'd been
there and been able to talk to Deersmith the outcome would have been
entirely different.

Richard

.73

>    When Jesus shows up for the second time, there will be NO question about 
>    his identity whatsoever.
    
>    King of kings and lord or lords.
    
Many of those who were certain they'd recognize the anticipated messiah the
first time didn't.  I am not convinced the so-called second coming will fit
anyone's preconceptions any better.

Kings and lords aren't what they used to be either.

Shalom,
Richard

	Does anybody remember the band called the Hooters? Despite the name,
they came out with a great song called, "All you zombies". The zombies were us,
and they went into different events that happened in the Bible. It was a very
good song, and the priest that was at my church liked it. He said it was
definitely different, but it might be good for kids, as the music is their
type.

	Now, why did I bring this up? Because I found out last night on the
radio that they were the ones who wrote, "One of Us". From a group that
mentioned Moses, etc by name in their other song, it does make me feel that
they weren't out to slam God. 

	Anyone remember the song?


Glen

    Nope, I don't know the song.  And the fact that "One of Us" was written
    by the Hooters is news to me too.  I'm not sure the song ever came
    across as a God slam (to me anyway).  More like a question which would
    raise the possibility of God being "knowable" from an otherwise
    apathetic group.
    
    There's something else to remember.  The message might have been one
    thing, but the interpretation quite another.  Remember "Let it Be"?
    Everyone thought it was about the Virgin Mary.  It was about pot.  "One
    of Us" might be trying to say one thing, but the audience may be taking it 
    quite differently.
    
    Have you heard the song "Let-em all in" by Mike Scott (I think)?  It
    had/has some degree of popularity and I've heard it on the radio
    several times.  You know.... "Let-em all in, let-em all in, let-em all
    in to my heart".  Scott writes christian music.  I suspected the
    conection to Jesus when I first herad it but wasn't sure.  A little
    research on the Web confirmed my suspcions.  Not sure how many youths
    know what the song's about. There is no direct reference to Jesus in
    it.  The melody is a sort of hypnotic mantra, like a locomotive
    chugging up a hill.  In contrast to "One of Us", I think this one sold
    primarily for the melody.
    
    -dave
    
    

    FYI:
    
    THe song reached #1 last week on the VH1 list.

	It got up as high as 4, on the Billboard top 100. It's spent the last 3
weeks at #9. 


Glen

    
    What goes up....
    

	She's at 37 this week on the Top 40! 

    Re: positive music and young people
    
    Why not expose youth to CCM where the artists don't veil their beliefs
    to appeal to the masses instead of the watered-down mainstream stuff?  
    
    There are CCM bands/artists out there that are incredible in just about
    every style of music.  There's also no speculation on where they stand
    or what they are singing about.
    
    Mike

	If they sing something people would listen to, then I could see no
problem. If they sing stuff that today's kids will just switch off, then why
bother? (I am talking about mainstream America, not individual families)



Glen

    I haven't seen many kids that don't like bands like DC Talk, Newsboys,
    Audio Adrenaline, etc.

	How many of these kids are not from religious backgrounds, Mike?

    quite a few in my neighborhood.  They come over to ask my son if they
    can borrow some of those CD's.

	Cool!