| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 1193.1 | Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Mon Dec 18 1995 16:31 | 17 |
|
} God rest ye Unitarians, let nothing you dismay.
} Remember there's no evidence there was a Christmas day.
} When Christ was born just is not known, no matter what they say,
} Glad tidings of reason and fact, reason and fact,
} Glad tidings of reason and fact.
}
} There was no star of Bethlehem, there was no angel song,
} There could have been no wise men, for the journey was too long,
} The stories in the Bible are historically wrong,
} Glad tidings of reason and fact . . .
}
} Much of our christmas custom comes from Persia and from Greece,
} From solstice celebrations of the ancient Middle East,
} Our so-called Christmas holiday is but a pagan feast,
} Glad tidings of reason and fact . . .
|
| 1193.2 | | ACISS2::LEECH | Dia do bheatha. | Mon Dec 18 1995 16:32 | 2 |
| Well, the inns were all full, so there must have been something going
on at the time.
|
| 1193.3 | help John in his inability to comprehend! | POWDML::FLANAGAN | let your light shine | Tue Dec 19 1995 12:02 | 4 |
| John,
When you resort to ridicule to discredit someone else's beliefs, the
only one you discredit is yourself!
|
| 1193.4 | Where's that liberalism, that acceptance of all beliefs? | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Dec 19 1995 12:07 | 8 |
| What's your problem, Patricia?
All of those claims have been made. Right in this very conference, even.
Every last one of them.
So what's wrong with putting them into a song?
/john
|
| 1193.5 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | let your light shine | Tue Dec 19 1995 12:23 | 12 |
| John,
I don't have a problem. You have the right to sing whatever song you
choose. Your decision to ridicule the belief system of another says
more about you than it does about the belief system you choose to
ridicule. Unitarian Universalism is a proud tradition and can certainly
hold up to your criticism.
I wish you nothing but the best John. I pray that you use your talents
to build up, rather than to tear down.
Patricia
|
| 1193.6 | This is fact: ALMIGHTY GOD was born of a virgin in Bethlehem | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Dec 19 1995 12:38 | 12 |
| Let's see, you get upset with a song that pokes harmless fun at your
skepticism about the historicity of the biblical accounts of the
nativity.
Yet you constantly oppose and denigrate the beliefs of those who trust
God to have given us a definitive revelation.
You, who constantly tears down the beliefs of traditional Christians,
show the height of hypocrisy by getting upset at a song which takes your
own very words and sets them to a traditional tune.
/john
|
| 1193.7 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Tue Dec 19 1995 12:50 | 38 |
| They had a series on TLC (The Learning Channel) a year or so ago about
the life ant times of Jesus. The historians, biblical scholars and
theologians would disagree on many things but they all pretty much
agreed that the whole nativity thing was probably fabrication.
If I recall correctly, the nativity story appears only in Luke (not
corroborated by other sources). I believe Luke was noted as being a
source notorious for "embelishing" stories with fabrication, probably
as a means to add emphasis to what the author saw was important.
Many facets of the account make no sense. For example, Roman census
taking would apply to Roman citizens only (they really didn't care
about how many carpenters there were in Nazareth). A manger was
typically part of one's house, not a free standing structure in a
field. And if 3 wisemen from three different lands followed the same
star, they would have all ended up in different places (all having
traveled parallel courses, never converging at a point).
Typically, the early life of a famous person was not seen as being
important insofar as being written down in history books. The fact
that no one really knew much about Jesus' childhood was not surprizing.
A guy named Michell (is it John Michell?) wrote a book called "The
Gospel According to Jesus". In a nutshell, it attempts to present the
life and teachings of Jesus MINUS all the artificial editorial which
the author claims has tainted and obscured the true picture over the
centuries. He makes the claim that Jesus was probably illegitimate,
citing many sources and facts supporting his claim (including many
quotes from Jesus himself). Regardless, illegitimacy in those times
and in that region was cause for great shame, something which required
an explanation of sorts. Thus sprang the nativity scene (or so the
interviewees of the TLC series claim).
Then again, if you believe in miracles, the "eperts" might all be
wrong!
-dave
|
| 1193.8 | Thanks for discrediting my beliefs in .7, and proving the point | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Dec 19 1995 12:51 | 7 |
| See, Patricia?
.7 is perfectly OK, but .1 is wrong.
This is known as "the illiberal liberal" syndrome.
/john
|
| 1193.9 | the difference is in the spirit | PCBUOA::DBROOKS | Sheela-na-giggle | Tue Dec 19 1995 13:17 | 10 |
| .1 is in the spirit of sneering derision, with an aim to destroy; .7 is honest
historical discussion.
Also, .1 is an example of the ancient power of the poet to destroy with
satire as, e.g., among the Druids in Celtic cultures. This was part of the
reason poets were held in high esteem socially - their satirical powers
were feared, just as their celebratory powers were desired.
Too bad that in this case, as .5 says, the power is being used to tear down
rather than build up...
|
| 1193.10 | | BIGQ::SILVA | EAT, Pappa, EAT! | Tue Dec 19 1995 13:49 | 7 |
|
Patricia, don't let John get you down. I think he likes to push other
people's buttons.
Glen
|
| 1193.11 | | CSC32::M_EVANS | cuddly as a cactus | Tue Dec 19 1995 15:21 | 6 |
| Only as long as his aren't pushed.
John, may you recieve all of the blessings of the season you have
earned.
meg
|
| 1193.12 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Dec 19 1995 16:54 | 3 |
| And may you receive more than you have earned.
/john
|
| 1193.13 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Tue Dec 19 1995 16:54 | 18 |
| Z John, may you recieve all of the blessings of the season you have
Z earned.
The beauty Meg is that fortunately we DON'T get the blessings we so
richly deserve. Blessings are not given by merit.
Patricia, I seem to recall you taking something from the web last week.
It was a parody of sorts on Christianity. Personally, I found it to be
humorous and wouldn't want you to avoid posting such things. However,
if I Reeeeeaaallly wanted to be a synsytyve bloke, I could say it is
denigrating to Christianity. Am I making sense here?
You shouldn't be offended at John's posting if you firmly believe the
things in that song have merit. Kind of like...if you know you're
beautiful, then offense shouldn't be taken if somebody say's your
plain...because YOU know you're not plain and that's all that counts.
-Jack
|
| 1193.14 | | TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff | Read a Book! | Tue Dec 19 1995 19:04 | 15 |
| re: the whole string
Com'on folks, lighten up!
If you can't find a bit of humor in the song you're taking all of this much
too seriously,
besides,
it's almost Christmas!
Blessings aside, may everyone enjoy the season in whatever way gives them the
most comfort and satisfaction!
Steve
|
| 1193.15 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | let your light shine | Tue Dec 19 1995 19:28 | 7 |
| Steve,
I happen to think this whole thing is a little more serious than a
silly song.
I also think it is extremely dysfunctional to sit back and smile at
something which is not funny.
|
| 1193.16 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Tue Dec 19 1995 20:02 | 20 |
| Patricia,
No offense but I thought it was kind of clever.
But let's do payback here. Sung to the tune of "Santa Claus is Coming
to Town....EVERYBODY SING ALONG!!!!!....
"You better get set...for Christmas this year...ain't no telling
with cyber folks here...John Covert is coming to town....
He's bringing his kids...to have some fun...staying ten days
when you thought he said one....John Covert is coming to town...
He'll monopolize your bathroom...he'll kill your solitude...
he'll eat you out of house and home then complain about the food...
SO...There's only one way...to save your No-el....
Pack up your bags and take a motel...John Covert is coming...yes
John Covert is coming...YES JOHN COVERT IS COMIIIING.....
TO TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWN" (Fan fare and cheering)
|
| 1193.17 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Wed Dec 20 1995 00:42 | 29 |
| .7
> Many facets of the account make no sense. For example, Roman census
> taking would apply to Roman citizens only (they really didn't care
> about how many carpenters there were in Nazareth).
I have also heard that the census is not verifiable through extra-biblical
sources.
> A manger was
> typically part of one's house, not a free standing structure in a
> field.
A manger is actually a feeding trough, rather than a dwelling or shelter.
(I had the same mistaken understanding for years.)
Luke doesn't provide the information, but a manger is likely to have been
located in a stable or a cave used as a stable.
> And if 3 wisemen from three different lands followed the same
> star, they would have all ended up in different places (all having
> traveled parallel courses, never converging at a point).
The magi do not appear in Luke's account, but Matthew's. The number of
wise men is unreported. There were three gifts.
Shalom,
Richard
|
| 1193.18 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Wed Dec 20 1995 12:13 | 4 |
|
Jesus was a comedian to a world afraid to laugh.
-Voltaire
|
| 1193.19 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Wed Dec 20 1995 12:53 | 5 |
| Actually, the three wisemen is a traditional teaching. In reality, the
fear of being overcome by wanderers was something to consider so men
who traveled usually did so in larger groups.
-Jack
|
| 1193.20 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Wed Dec 20 1995 17:13 | 7 |
| I thought they suposedly traveled from their various kingdoms to
converge at some place and time near Bethlehem. And I also thought
that these kings each traveled in his own little band of countrymen.
Well, maybe there's more than one accounting floating around.
-dave
|
| 1193.21 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Thu Dec 21 1995 02:09 | 19 |
| .20
> I thought they suposedly traveled from their various kingdoms to
> converge at some place and time near Bethlehem. And I also thought
> that these kings each traveled in his own little band of countrymen.
> Well, maybe there's more than one accounting floating around.
Well, yeah. The details vary. Ancient tradition has even assigned the
magi with personal names: Gaspar, Melchior and Balthazar. Colorful, but
not rooted in any Gospel contained in the canon.
I'm not sure the magi were monarchs. One translation says they were
astrologers. I believe tradition has it that the wise men travelled
together, at least during the last leg of the journey.
Shalom,
Richard
|
| 1193.22 | | TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff | Read a Book! | Thu Dec 21 1995 13:19 | 23 |
| .15 Flanagan
I happen to think this whole thing is a little more serious than a
silly song.
Why?
I also think it is extremely dysfunctional to sit back and smile at
something which is not funny.
Patricia,
I am willing to bet that pretty much everything you've ever found amusing in
your whole life was not funny to someone, somewhere. Was it dysfunctional for
you to be amused? I've re-read the song, and see nothing viscious in it.
I'll be honest with you, humorlessness (especially about one's own religion),
the inability to laugh at ones self a little, was a trait that I had ascribed
primarily to those adhering to Christian fundamentalism. Not that you care,
but I am more than a little dissappointed (and saddened) to see it also exists
in the philosophies of those I had considered more enlightened. :^(
Steve
|
| 1193.23 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Thu Dec 21 1995 13:41 | 4 |
| Well bust my buttons!!! I guess I'm not a fundie since I laugh at
myself all the time!
-Jack
|
| 1193.24 | | BIGQ::SILVA | EAT, Pappa, EAT! | Thu Dec 21 1995 14:18 | 6 |
| | <<< Note 1193.23 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>
| Well bust my buttons!!! I guess I'm not a fundie since I laugh at
| myself all the time!
Jack, it's either that or you would cry..... just kidding!!!! :-)
|
| 1193.25 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Thu Dec 21 1995 14:41 | 1 |
| Bwaaaaahahahahahaaaa....Grrrrrrrrrrrrr......
|
| 1193.26 | | CSC32::KUHN | | Thu Dec 21 1995 22:26 | 7 |
| If the claims in .1 are true about some folks beliefs here, you have
no position to defend. If you are making up your own theology and
discounting the bible using human logic, I don't understand how you are a
Christian. I respect your right to believe what you want though.
All that being said, on it's own merits, I enjoyed the song. :-) :-)
j
|
| 1193.27 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Fri Dec 22 1995 12:12 | 15 |
| RE .26
>>If you are making up your own theology and discounting the bible using
>> human logic, I don't understand how you are a Christian.
Some of the greatest christian theologians of all time have questioned
the literal interpretation of the bible. Accomodating human logic
seems to be the driving force behind much of their work. Indeed, I've
heard it said that all a christian need do is believe that Jesus is
his/her saviour! I'm not quite sure where you see the contradiction.
(Am I ressurecting an old argument here?)
-dave
|
| 1193.28 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | let your light shine | Fri Dec 22 1995 13:16 | 24 |
| Unitarian Universalism is a religion that balances faith and reason.
It does not replace faith with reason.
A reminder from one UU to another that there is a limit to human reason
is different than an outsider insisting that the church has replaced
faith with reason.
Unitarian Universalist celebrate Christmas as a sacred holiday. Some
of us as Unitarian Universalists see Christmas as part of the tradition
of Solstice Holidays. I see the baby Jesus as a symbol of hope and
light at the darkest time of the year. I see the Holiday as ritually
hoping for, dreaming of, and praying for, "Peace on Earth" and
"Goodwill toward women and men" I can feel the wonder and mystery
potrayed by the shepherds in the field looking up to heaven and having
the birth of Jesus told, even if I do not understand the story to be
historic truth. Jesus to me, as a newborn baby sybolizes the hope and
joy that accompanies or should accompany the birth of every new born.
I belong to a tradion which requires every participant to find for
themselves their own spiritual meaning. I love that tradition.
Patricia
|
| 1193.29 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Fri Dec 22 1995 13:40 | 7 |
| Patricia:
I guess I'm having a hard time understanding the fuss over this since I
as you do, disbelieve Jesus' actual birthday was December 25th. In
this way, I relate to you and to a stanza in the song. So what gives?
-Jack
|
| 1193.30 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | let your light shine | Fri Dec 22 1995 13:53 | 11 |
| "God Rest ye merry Gentlepeople let nothing you dismay"
"Remember Christ the Savior was born on Christman day"
Christ the Savior is born every year at Christmas,
The Christ of Christmas Day saves by reminding us in this annual ritual
of the ideal to which we must all inspire. Peace, Love, and Good will
toward all. And every year as this tiny baby is born in the cold and
darkness, we have hope that light and sunshine and comfort and joy will
return.
|
| 1193.31 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Fri Dec 22 1995 13:56 | 3 |
| ZZ "Remember Christ the Savior was born on Christman day"
That was a typo right! :-)
|
| 1193.32 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Fri Dec 22 1995 14:16 | 17 |
| Re .29
>... I as you do, disbelieve Jesus' actual birthday was December 25th
Hmmmmm... does it mention an actual date anywhere in the Bible? I've
heard that the Dec 25th date had something to do with an ancient Roman
holiday. And I've seen a special on the tube where the "best guess" of
biblical historians is in terms of a plus/minus 10-15 year range,
nevermind an exact day!
What does it really matter anyway? If the man lived, he was born. Why
is the exact year/day/time important?
Just curious.
-dave
|
| 1193.33 | | CSC32::KUHN | | Fri Dec 22 1995 14:41 | 8 |
|
> Hmmmmm... does it mention an actual date anywhere in the Bible?
I agree. it's not stated because It's not important. I am not an observer
of days so the actual date means nothing to me. The observance of an
actual day for ChristMAS(s) is a added tradition. One that i like though!
j
|
| 1193.34 | Bethlehem | CPCOD::JOHNSON | A rare blue and gold afternoon | Fri Dec 22 1995 14:46 | 44 |
| I am sorry this topic got off topic. Bethlehem would have been a good
subject to continue. "O Little Town of Bethlehem" was always one of my
favorite Christmas hyms -- to think of a such a momentous event happening
so quietly in an ordinary town in Israel!
I think its now in the part of the land that belongs to some other
country - is that right? I heard recently that Israeli troops were
pulling out of Bethlehem a few days ago. The report didn't provide a
lot of detail though, other than Palestinians celebrating. Does anyone
know more?
In regards to the TLC program. It sounds to me like they took a lot of
the traditional myths and legends around the Messiah's birth, and
refuted these. At the same time they made it sound like these popular
ideas are the actual Biblical record. Then they used that to create
scepticism about the Bible. But really, they are doing this on false
premises. That bit about Luke embellishing stories with fabrications is
in itself subjective fabrication.
The census was for the purpose of taxing or taking tribute from people
in conquered lands. The typical image of the stable as a free standing
structure in a field is not presented in the Gospels but is one that is
part of popular tradition only. The idea of three wise men or kings
coming from different lands is also popular tradition, not directly from
the Gospel account. The wise men, possibly astrologers, probably traveled
together. No where does the Bible say how many there were.
I think those "experts" started out with the premise that none of this
could have happened, and they looked for ways to explain it away.
Moving away from the TLC program, Bethlehem means "House of Bread".
Bread has been a staple for years and years, one of the backbones of our
diet. Yeshua spoke of Himself as the "Bread of Life", that which sustains
us in life. Through Him, we do indeed have life! The book of Ruth
involves the town of Bethlehem. It is a story that relates to the birth of
Messiah and the lineage of King David. I think its neat that the lineage
of the King has in it this gentile woman who was grafted into the people of
Israel, showing us that Messiah is for all the nations.
May this holiday be one of light, life, joy, and peace for those of you
who celebrate the Messiah's birth - Emmanuel - God with us, and may it be
a relaxing and enjoyable day off work for the rest of you.
Leslie
|
| 1193.35 | | CSC32::KUHN | | Fri Dec 22 1995 14:56 | 7 |
|
>Some of the greatest christian theologians of all time have questioned
>the literal interpretation of the bible. Accomodating human logic
>seems to be the driving force behind much of their work.
Thats *their* problem. :-)
|
| 1193.37 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Fri Dec 22 1995 18:07 | 77 |
| >It sounds to me like they took a lot of
>the traditional myths and legends around the Messiah's birth, and
>refuted these.
Conjecture on your part. And if you had seen the show, you'd see that
they were using the legends as a starting basis for their search for
the date of Jesus' birth of. One of the legends cited the the
brilliant star of David. Astronomers and historians were called in to
help. Three prominent theories resulted... 1) Near conjunction of 3
planets 2) A rogue comet 3) Nova or supernova explosion. These events
(again taken FROM legend and NOT refuted) were the basis for the +/- 15
year spread. If they were close minded about this, and refused to look
into the accounts of the ancient Chinese, they would not have found the
mention of the comet... corroborative evidence from a non christien
(heaven forbid) source Lesile!
I mean really. When all you have to start with are the legends, it seems
ridiculous to begin by refuting them. And the "experts" were for
the most parts devout theologian/historians of both christian and Jewish
traditions. They spend most of their lives studying this sort of thing
and were good enough to convey their wisdom to us through the program.
At least watch the thing before condeming it.
>Then they used that to create scepticism about the Bible
Completely untrue. Absolutely false. In fact, I recall almost no
reference to the bible. Again,. watch the program and learn.
>That bit about Luke embellishing stories with fabrications is in itself
>subjective fabrication.
That was common practice of the people of that region and time.
(again, according to the experts). Finding unbiased objective
accountings of that time/place was one of the impediments in the
research. Actually roman sources were prized because they tended to
be objective.
>The census was for the purpose of taxing or taking tribute from people
>in conquered lands.
Not true (according to the experts). If it was true, then why would a
carpenter from Nazareth be asked to travel to Bethlehem to declare that
he was a taxable carpenter from Nazareth. Census taking had to do with
roman citizens. Local tax collectors handled taxing the locals with no
need for a census which would only take place every 10+ years or so.
So why the legend? One theory I vaguely recall was to add importance to
Jesus (embelishment of the story). The romans (although disliked) were
regarded as being important and powerful people by birth. Se the
connection? But it was just a theory and stated as such.
>The wise men, possibly astrologers,
The show proposed that astrologers of the time would have been
facinated with the astronomic event (star of David) and, as
astrologers do, connected the star with some important human event.
Another theory was that the star would have been interpreted as
declaring the entry of a great king. Again, a believable thing coming
from an astrologer. There was a lot of conjecture in this area (if I
recall).
>I think those "experts" started out with the premise that none of this
> could have happened, and they looked for ways to explain it away.
Absolutely false! Given the legends (as you call them) to work
with, as well as any and all other sources available, they tried to
reconstruct what might have happened. I know you'll find this
unacceptable, but none of them were so close minded as to hold fast to
the nativity legend and then clamp his hands over his eyes ears refusing
to look and ferther. They were searching for the truth
Heaven forbid, not the truth!
|
| 1193.38 | | SMART2::DGAUTHIER | | Fri Dec 22 1995 18:21 | 5 |
| re .35
> Thats *their* problem. :-)
They tend to look at it as a vocation, not a problem.
|
| 1193.39 | +-:-) } | CSC32::KUHN | | Fri Dec 22 1995 18:42 | 5 |
|
>They tend to look at it as a vocation, not a problem.
At least right now. :-) :-) :-) :-) :) :-)
|
| 1193.40 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Fri Dec 22 1995 19:02 | 6 |
| Re Jay...
"Two men please God. He who serves Him with all his heart for he knows
Him. He who searches for Him with all his heart for he knows him not."
-Nikita Ivonavich Pannin
|
| 1193.41 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Sat Dec 23 1995 23:54 | 39 |
| 1193.42 | | LGP30::FLEISCHER | without vision the people perish (DTN 227-3978, TAY1) | Sun Dec 24 1995 12:28 | 8 |
| re Note 1193.41 by COVERT::COVERT:
> as "Good Christian Men, Rejoice!" The macaronic character of the carol was
Would you explain what you mean by "macaronic" -- this
conjures up images of "Yankee Doodle".
Bob
|
| 1193.43 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Sun Dec 24 1995 18:22 | 4 |
| A mixture of Latin and the vernacular or the vernacular with Latin endings
or any mixture of multiple languages.
/john
|
| 1193.44 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Mon Dec 25 1995 13:48 | 185 |
| The Christmas Sermon
to be given by
The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury
The Most Revd & Right Honourable George L Carey
25 December 1995
in his Cathedral
Church of Christ, Canterbury
ADDRESS BY THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY
CHRISTMAS DAY 1995
CANTERBURY CATHEDRAL
So the shepherds hurried off and found Mary and Joseph and the baby who was
lying in a manger.
I have always found the Christmas story to be unfailingly topical. Whether
one thinks of the problems facing refugees, or the homeless, or the wider
issues of the search for hope and meaning, there is something in the
message of Christmas that speaks to them all. Take the central story of the
Nativity itself. It is the story of the beginning of a new family; a
nuclear family if ever there was one; a holy family.
Families have been very much in the news in recent weeks. Over the last few
days the Prince and Princess of Wales, together with the children, have
been at the forefront of our prayers as we have sensed afresh some of the
pain they carry.
Only a short while before their news broke we all shared too in the sudden
grief of a family struck by tragedy. The death of the headmaster Philip
Laurence evoked this sad letter from his 8 year old son Lucien. He wrote to
Father Christmas: `I hope you won't think I am a nuisance but I have
changed my mind as to what I want for Christmas. I wanted to have a
telescope, but I now want to have my Daddy back, because without my Daddy
to help I will not be able to see the stars anyway. I am the only boy in
the family now, but I am not very big and I need my Daddy to help me stop
my Mummy and sister from crying'. Very few things are more traumatic than
the loss of mother or father from the family circle.
Shortly before that terrible event a very different family had been in the
limelight as Rosemary West was sentenced for her part in the awful murders
she and her husband had committed. It came as a horrific reminder that the
strong bonds that bind families together can go terribly wrong. Instead of
being places of nurture and support, families can become webs of vice,
deceit, and cruelty.
But what of the Holy Family? What can we learn from its pattern of
relationships and mutual support that are still of importance for today?
There were, I believe, three `R's' which were of great importance to the
Holy Family and each of their insights have something important to offer as
we reflect on family life in Society today. As we do so let me say that I
am not wanting to exclude in any way those who are single, or who are
single parents. After all, the family of Jesus includes us all.
The three `R's' are these - Reverence, Reliance, and Religion.
First, Reverence. The starting point for any Christian understanding of
humanity must be that we are made in the image of God. But the birth of
Christ gives that understanding greater depth. No longer is it merely the
fact that we bear God's likeness - now God has taken flesh for himself. He
has become human. And, as we gaze with Mary and Joseph at the baby in her
arms, so we are caught up in their awe and wonder not just for that child,
but for all children and for all humanity.
One of the most shocking things about my visit to Bosnia was to hear how
that reverence for the humanity of others had been systematically destroyed
through exclusivist nationalism. Ethnic cleansing came about as human
beings were systematically deprived of all rights and traumatised through
bestial treatment that is almost too shocking to report.
Likewise, as the full horror of what had happened in the Wests' home in
Gloucester emerged, so it became very plain that they had consistently
treated their fellow human beings as things and not as people.
That, of course, was an extreme case, but we hear echoes of it elsewhere in
racist and sexist remarks, in the belittling of the mentally disabled, in
the disparagement of the elderly, or those commonplace references to people
as `beasts', `scum' or `monsters'.
As Christians we must challenge everything that fails to revere the image
of God in others. We must also encourage everything that gives people their
true worth.
And, as we are reminded today, nowhere is more important as the fertile
seedbed of such reverence than the relationships between members of
families. As the different generations, whether married or single, offer
support to one another - as commitment and concern is given within the
family circle - so families grow through mutual respect and reverence. As
Jean Vanier writes, `The union of the man and woman, and the life of their
children, are there for the growth of each other'.
Second, Reliance. In the Holy Family we see the example of trust and
faithfulness bearing fruit in strengthening relationships. I love the story
of Jesus at the age of twelve - a typical youngster you might say - testing
the boundaries of his independence, as he stays on in the Temple after his
parents have set out on their travels.
Rightly we focus on what it says about his relationship with God, but there
is also the sub-text that reveals his own secure relationship with his
human parents. He knew full well that they would not disown him or desert
him and, from that position of security, he, in turn, could grow to
maturity.
Such reliance and trust is vital, not just for families, but for societies
as a whole. One of the saddest things I hear on my visit to Sarajevo was
this comment from a leading Imam in Sarajevo. He said, `Over the last four
years neighbours have lost their trust in one another and it is one of the
most grievous losses of the war'.
Trust and reliance are equally important to us in our more normal
environment. They must not be treated lightly. They are something to be
cherished and nurtured, particularly in our family lives, for children
cannot rely psychologically on the love of their parents if the latter do
not make the time and effort to show it.
I remember reading this comment on life in one clergy family, written by
one of the children, `We always had to knock (at the study door), and often
our father did not look up from what he was doing. Sometimes he would look
over his glasses to see whether it was an important person - or just us'. I
am sure if you had asked that clergyman how he felt about his children he
would have spoken strongly of their importance. Yet that was not what they
experienced - and it comes as a salutary lesson to us all.
Such reliance and trust needs to be built up over time and through spending
time with each other. One of the recent trends that social analysts have
detected is the gradual increase in hours worked each week by those
involved in a variety of management roles. With the threat of downsizing
and redundancy hanging over many, it is easy to see why, for the sake of
their families and to keep their jobs, people are working longer hours -
but we should be in no doubt that there will be a price to pay in terms of
relationships and family life, in time lost to their upbuilding and growth.
Reverence, Reliance and, thirdly, Religion. Christian leaders are expected
to preach about religion. Perhaps we are not so good at talking about its
cohesive importance to family life.
Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to pray and, later, to attend the Synagogue.
Religion also provided the annual rhythms of life as festival followed
festival through the year.
Their religion was not merely an expression of emotional response, or
regular attendance at public worship, rather it was a matter of personal
commitment. In other words it was religion at its best - for the word
`religio' means `I bind myself to'. In terms of faith it means to commit
oneself to walking in God's ways and to keeping his laws; to learning those
habits of heart and mind that lead our children and ourselves to love God
and his Church.
Having such reverence, reliance and religion at the hear of family life
will transform it. It will lead us to have a huge capacity for tolerance
and forgiveness. Such must have been the background to Tennyson's poem
where he talks of the moment when his family was rent asunder by a quarrel:
"As thro' the land at eve we went
and pluck'd the ripen'd ears.
We fell out, my wife and I,
O we fell out I know not why,
and kiss'd again with tears
and blessings on the falling out
that all the more endears,
when we fall out with those we love,
and kiss again with tears!"
Yes, where there is love such a falling out can become a blessing. But
often it is not and we are left with the ache of what might have been.
But these attributes did not make the Holy Family an introverted one. Bound
closely together, they looked out to the world. No sooner had the baby been
born than shepherds - some of the outcasts of society - came to share in
their joy. The Holy Family, in time, became the birthplace of the family of
the Church - in which all of us, young and old, are welcome and belong.
Likewise the values nourished in good families are not for hoarding in
private foxholes but are there to be shared with the wider society. If we
fail as a society to show all people that we care about them and that we
are committed to them, we are failing to obey God's commandment to love our
neighbours as ourselves.
Mary, we read, pondered the experiences of that first Christmas Day in her
heart. She was amazed at the goodness of God. She and her young family
advanced on their adventure of discovering the joys of reverence, reliance
and religion in family life. As they did so, so they discovered more of
God's love and strength. The love which is, of course, the true message of
Christmas for us all.
|
| 1193.45 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Mon Dec 25 1995 13:49 | 146 |
|
MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS
POPE JOHN PAUL II
"Urbi et Orbi"
Christmas 1995
1. "You are my Son, today I have begotten you" (Heb 1:5).
The words of today's Liturgy introduce us
into the mystery of the eternal birth, beyond time,
of the Son of God,
the Son, of one Being with the Father.
The Gospel of John says:
"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God" (Jn 1:1-2).
We profess the same truth in the Creed:
"God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man".
This is the joyful news of Christmas,
as transmitted by the Evangelists
and the Church's apostolic tradition.
Today we wish to announce it "to the City and to the World",
Urbi et Orbi.
2. "He was in the world,
and the world was made through him" (Jn 1:10).
The One born on Christmas night
comes among his own.
Why does he come?
He comes to give "new strength",
a "power" different from that of the world.
He comes in poverty to a stable at Bethlehem,
with the greatest of gifts:
he gives us divine adoption.
To all who welcome him
he gives the "power to become children of God" (Jn 1:12),
in order that in him, the eternal Son of the eternal Father,
they may be "born of God" (cf. Jn 1:13).
In him, in fact, in the Babe of this holy night,
there is life (cf. Jn 1:4):
life that knows no death;
the life of God himself;
the life which, as Saint John says, is the light of men.
The light shines in the darkness,
but the darkness did not accept it (cf. Jn 1:4-5).
On Christmas Night there appears the light that is Christ.
It shines and penetrates people's hearts,
filling them with the new life.
It enkindles in them the eternal light,
that ever enlightens the human person
even when the darkness of death envelops the body.
Precisely for this "the Word became flesh
and dwelt among us" (Jn 1:14).
3. "He came to his own,
and his own people received him not" (Jn 1:11),
as recorded in the Prologue of John's Gospel.
The Evangelist Luke confirms this truth,
and recalls that
"there was no place for them in the inn" (Lk 2:7).
"For them", that is, for Mary and Joseph
and for the Child about to be born.
This is an idea often expressed in our Christmas carols:
"His own people did not receive him..."
In the great inn of the whole human community,
as well as in the little inn of our own hearts,
how many poor people even today,
at the threshold of the Year 2000,
come to knock!
4. Christmas is the celebration of welcome and of love!
Will there be room, on this day,
for the scattered families of Bosnia-Hercegovina,
who are still anxiously waiting for the results of peace,
the peace recently proclaimed?
And the refugees of Rwanda, will they
be able to return to a country that is really reconciled?
Will the people of Burundi
be able to find once more the path of fraternal peace?
Will the peoples of Sri Lanka
be able to look forward, hand in hand,
to a future of brotherhood and solidarity?
Will the people of Iraq finally be able to return
to a normal existence,
after the long years of embargo?
Will there be room for the inhabitants of Kurdistan,
of whom many are obliged, once more, to face the winter
in the most difficult conditions?
And how could we forget our brothers and sisters
of southern Sudan, still exposed to an armed violence
fomented without respite?
Nor, indeed, can we forget the people of Algeria,
who continue to suffer,
the victims of harsh trials.
It is in this hurt world that the Infant Jesus,
in all his love and frailty, appears!
He comes to free those caught up in hatred,
and slaves of particular interests, and divisions.
He comes to open new perspectives.
The Son of God encourages the hope that,
in spite of so many great difficulties,
peace will finally appear on the horizon.
There are promising signs of this,
even in troubled areas such as
Northern Ireland and the Middle East.
Let people open their hearts to
the Word of God made flesh
in the poverty of Bethlehem.
5. This is the Mystery which we celebrate today:
God "has spoken to us by a Son" (Heb 1:2).
In many and in varied ways
God had spoken through the Prophets,
but when "the fullness of time" (Gal 4:4) had arrived,
He spoke through the Son.
The Son is the reflection of the Father's glory,
the very stamp of his nature,
upholding the universe by the power of his word.
This is what the author of the Letter to the Hebrews
says about the new-born Son of Mary (cf. Heb 1:3).
Although through him God the Father created the universe,
this Child is also the Firstborn
and the Heir of all creation (cf. Heb 1:1-2).
This poor Babe,
for whom "there was no room in the inn",
in spite of appearances,
is the sole Heir of the whole of creation.
He came to share with us this birthright of his,
so that we, having become children of divine adoption,
might have a part in the inheritance that he brought
with him into the world.
Eternal Word, today we contemplate your glory,
"glory as of the only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth" (cf. Jn 1:14).
Over the airwaves, may the joyful message of your Birth,
ever old and ever new,
reach the peoples and nations of every continent
and bring peace to the world.
|
| 1193.46 | | LGP30::FLEISCHER | without vision the people perish (DTN 227-3978, TAY1) | Tue Dec 26 1995 10:36 | 3 |
| Thanks for entering those, John!
Bob
|
| 1193.47 | | CPCOD::JOHNSON | A rare blue and gold afternoon | Wed Dec 27 1995 13:50 | 20 |
| <<< Note 1193.37 by SMART2::DGAUTHIER >>>
> >It sounds to me like they took a lot of
> >the traditional myths and legends around the Messiah's birth, and
> >refuted these.
> Conjecture on your part. And if you had seen the show, you'd see that
> they were using the legends as a starting basis for their search for
> the date of Jesus' birth of.
I said "sounds like" because I was going by your description of the show and
not be having actually seen the show. This is why I didn't say "The show took
a lot of ..." and instead said, "It sounds to me like the show ...". Your
original description certainly made it sound like they took popular legends of
the Messiah's birth and worked to refute those, rather than examining the
actual Biblical texts. If you wanted people to respond more accurately to what
the show presented you ought to have been more clear in your description.
Leslie
|
| 1193.48 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Dec 27 1995 15:02 | 33 |
| Once in royal David's city For he is our childhood's pattern;
Stood a lowly cattle shed, Day by day like us he grew;
Where a mother laid her baby He was little, weak, and helpless,
In a manger for his bed: Tears and smiles like us he knew;
Mary was that mother mild, And he feeleth for our sadness,
Jesus Christ her little child. And he shareth in our gladness.
He came down to earth from heaven And our eyes at last shall see him,
Who is God and Lord of all, Through his own redeeming love;
And his shelter was a stable, For that child so dear and gentle
And his cradle was a stall; Is our Lord in heav'n above;
With the poor, and mean, and lowly, And he leads his children on
Lived on earth our Saviour holy. To the place where he is gone.
And thro' all his wondrous childhood, Not in that poor lowly stable,
He would honor and obey, With the oxen standing by,
Love, and watch the lowly maiden We shall see him; but in heaven,
In whose gentle arms he lay; Set at God's right hand on high;
Christian children all must be When like stars his children crowned,
Mild, obedient, good as he. All in white shall wait around.
The tune, Irby, is as follows, with each letter representing an eighth.
"C" = middle C, "c" = C above middle; in the key of F, which means Bs
are B-flat by default:
CC EE FFF F FE FG GG FF FF aa ccc a aG FE GGGG
Once in roy-al Da-vid's ci-ty Stood a low-ly cat-tle shed,
CC EE FFF F FE FG GG FF FF aa ccc a aG FE GGGG
Where a mother laid her ba-by In a manger for his bed:
dd dd ccc f bb bb aaaa dd dd ccc a aG FE FFFF
Ma-ry was that mother mild, Jesus Christ her little child.
|
| 1193.49 | | CNTROL::DGAUTHIER | | Wed Dec 27 1995 19:18 | 31 |
| >Your original description certainly made it sound like they took popular
>legends of the Messiah's birth and worked to refute those,
^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^
Where in .7 did that come across? I said that the "experts" pretty much
agreed that the whole nativity thing was fabrication but never said
that conclusion was their desired goal. They didn't "work to refute"
and I never said that they did. I think you read beyond what was written.
>If you wanted people to respond more accurately to what
>the show presented you ought to have been more clear in your
>description.
I won't argue interpretation. The clarifacation came in the string of
responses. Sorry if the earlier ones were unclear.
There was another special 3 hr.series on TLC's "Ancient Journeys" this
past weekend about the life and times of Jesus. It ran on the premise
that everything in the Bible and in the legends were fact. It then
elaborated on the story with other historical sources. For example,
when the stable/manger was mentioned, an historian would elaborate on
what a stable and manger actually might have looked like. The star
of Bethlehem was equated to the conjunction of planets, etc... . The
series I mentioned back in .7 (not the same as the "Ancient Journeys"
series) went in to much greater detail and interviewed the so called
experts. But, if one is of the mindset that the legends are fact, one
might find this latter series enjoyable.
|
| 1193.50 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Dec 27 1995 19:48 | 9 |
| If you want to see how the Christians who live in Bethlehem represent the
stable/manger scene, see
http://www.novsu.ac.ru/novgorod/icon_paint/english/icon_038.html
For the WWWeb-challenged, this is the traditional middle-eastern representation
of a stable (cave) with the Son of God in the manger (trough).
/john
|
| 1193.51 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Thu Dec 28 1995 01:54 | 5 |
| This is another eastern representation of the Nativity cave:
http://www.vatican.va/img/auguri1.jpg
/john
|