Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

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Note 1137.30               A preview of the afterlife                   30 of 30
DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what U have"   29 lines  15-SEP-1995 07:24
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re .27


over here, there are quite a few faith healers which are supposed 
to work wonders.

where do the healing powers come from?

i can think of three possibilities

a) from the faith healer
b) from the one seeking help
c) from a combination of the two above


personally, i think that b) is most likely, ie. that the patient
is using his/her autosuggestive powers - and that these 'powers' 
can work equally well in a positive and in a negative manner.

i don't think that demons have anything to do with these powers.

one power which is definitely at work in this area is the power 
of the almighty "$", as there are folks out there who are expert
in turning peoples superstition into gold.




andreas.

    The charge that those who are able to heal are using the power of the
    demonic is at least 2000 years old!

    Don't ignore demonic influences in our world.  Satan is alive and well
    (for the time being), and very much likes it that very few even believe
    he exists (much less his host of fallen angels- or demons).
    
    "Our struggles are not with the flesh, but with the principalities and
    the powers of the air." (paraphrased from memory)
    
    Why is it that in a nation that has no problem believing in angels
    (good ones), has a problem believing that fallen angels exist?  
    
    
    
    -steve

    Steve,
    
    Don't ignore God's influence in the World and the possibility that
    God's influence really is more powerful than all the forces of evil!
    
    Don't ignore the possibility that God influences by Love, Mercy, and
    Healing and not by Force.
    
    It seems to me that if one truly trusts in God, then one has confidence
    that evil can be overcome with Love.
    
                                       Patricia
    
                                    

    As mentioned at the C-P dinner, I was speaking to a customer who says
    she is a Celtic Witch.  She overtly wears a Pentagram proudly and says
    she casts a spell before making a deal.
    
    One thing she said that I feel is the biggest problem of the Spiritual
    realm of our world today.  She does not believe in Satan.
    
    -Jack

2Corinthians 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, 
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 

 14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    re: .4
    
    Patricia, 
    
    Evil HAS ALREADY been overcome by love- the love God has for the world. 
    "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son...".
    However, the choice is ours as to which side we wish to be on (winning
    side or losing side, to put it frankly).  Though the conclusion is
    already known, people will still choose to be on the losing side.
    
    The war was won nearly 2000 years ago.  Satan knows he is doomed, but
    due to pride will continue to deceive many and bring them to their
    destruction.  How?  Occult worship, false prophets who teach false
    doctrine, sensualism, greed, etc.  His angels are working overtime
    today to bring the world into a new order, to be controlled by Satan
    himself (through the beast and the false prophet of Revelation).
    
    Society is buying into Satan's lies hook, line and sinker if current 
    trends are studied.  His deceptions are becoming less and less subtle
    as time progresses, and indeed why should they not be?  Few believe
    in him or his fallen angels in this day and age. 
    
    Test the spirits with scripture.  This is the only way we have of
    detecting deceptions buried in half-truths.  This is why God tells us
    to do this.  Satan is not called the great deceiver for nothing.  He is
    exceedingly intelligent and has been around a lot longer than we have. 
    We are no match for him intellectually, therefore we need to rely on
    something else- namely, the scriptures (not voices, not feelings, not
    emotions, not first reactions, etc.).
    
    
    -steve

    Steve,
    
    If love has already overcome evil, then what is there to fear?
    
    If God has defeated, Satan, then how could Satan be capable of turning
    any of God's people from God.
    
    Either God's love is more powerful than the demonic or not.  You cannot
    argue that God's love is more powerful and that the demonic is in
    control at the same time!.

ZZ    If God has defeated, Satan, then how could Satan be capable of
ZZ    turning any of God's people from God.
    
    God's love did in fact defeat Satan.  However, God also makes abiding
    with Him conditional...that being, does one want want to abide with him
    or not??!!  Most people unfortunately choose the latter.
    
    Jesus did die for the sin of the world.  Forgiveness comes when one
    wants forgiveness.  That is a free choice God gave us.
    
    -Jack

in the following i post a few book reviews on the subject of "faith healers"

the books reviews originate from:

	"http://www.public.iastate.edu/~edis/skeptic/quackery.html"


andreas.



Magic Or Medicine?: An Investigation of Healing & Healers 

   Robert Buckman and Karl Sabbagh 1993, Macmillan London (1995
   Prometheus); 286p. 

   Examines the nature of the relationship between patients and the people
   who treat them. Drawing on some of the earliest written medical sources
   as well as their own investigations into current alternative therapies,
   the authors argue that healing has always been partly the science of
   clinical treatment (the medicine) and partly an art (the magic).
   Medicine may make the patient get well, but it is often the magic that
   makes the patient feel well. With all the pressures under which they
   work, modern medical doctors often neglect the magic in their dealings
   with patients. And all too often, alternative therapists offer nothing
   but magic. Buckman and Sabbagh look closely at the claims made for both
   medical science and alternative therapies: between the promise and the
   reality of both, they have uncovered a chasm. Magic or Medicine? is a
   fascinating exploration of healing in the late 20th century, and vital
   reading for anyone concerned about the effective delivery of health
   care.



   A Consumer's Guide To "Alternative Medicine": A Close Look at
   Homeopathy, Acupuncture, Faith Healing, and Other Unconventional
   Treatments 

   Kurt Butler; edited by Stephen Barrett 1992, Prometheus Books; 299p.

   A survey of hundreds of health scams, along with more detailed
   information on major sources of quackery such as chiropractic and diets.
   The intent is not to present detailed scientific arguments, but show how
   many so-called therapies are useless or even dangerous, for the benefit
   of the casual consumer. Even so, there is likely to be information here
   for observers of the alternative medicine scene as well. It is amazing
   how many myths even many skeptics casually accept where health is
   concerned, just because they're part of common beliefs.



   The Faith Healers 

   James Randi 1987, Prometheus Books; 314p. 

   Contains sections on the history of faith healing, and the limitations
   of medical science, but the strength (and bulk) of the book is the
   direct examinations and exposes of particular faith healing claims. The
   Peter Popoff debunking is especially well known, and most of the
   examples are from the evangelical subculture. Not a comprehensive survey
   (i.e. not a dry academic text), but a good examination of real-world
   faith healing.



   Deadly Blessings: Faith Healing on Trial 

   Richard Brenneman 1990, Prometheus Books; 390p. 

   A look at three cases involving healing and faith, from a journalistic
   perspective that brings out the human drama behind them. The cases
   illustrate Christian Science (the religion the author used to belong
   to); Philippine psychic surgery transplanted to the US in a New Age
   context; and a cultish form of psychotherapy revolving around the
   personality of a therapist and psychedelic drugs. The focus is on the
   particular cases with only minimal attempts at broad-brush descriptions.
   While the sheer human detail presented can become tedious in parts, the
   books' virtue is its skeptical but sympathetic viewpoint, which reminds
   the reader that it is not just abstract scientific ideas at stake.



   Faces of Medicine: A Philosophical Study 

   W.J. van der Steen and P.J. Thung 1988, Dordrecht; 236p. 

   This book puts medicine in a wider cultural context, uncovers
   limitations of medicine (not least the failure adequately to deal with
   the mind-body problem), and critically analyzes alternative medicine,
   especially homeopathy.

    re: .8 (Patricia)
        
>    If love has already overcome evil, then what is there to fear?
 
    NOTHING!  That's the great news!  IF you have actively accepted the
    savior to cover your sins.  There are many who have not, and therefore
    have much to fear- they are not within grace, nor are they free of the
    bondage of their sin.
       
>    If God has defeated, Satan, then how could Satan be capable of turning
>    any of God's people from God.
 
    I don't believe he can.  However, God's people are those who have
    entered His family, through His son, Jesus.  Many do no have Jesus, and
    therefore are not "God's people".
       
>    Either God's love is more powerful than the demonic or not.  
    
    It is.
    
>    You cannot
>    argue that God's love is more powerful and that the demonic is in
>    control at the same time!.
    
    I've never argued that the demonic is "in control"- God is in control. 
    What I'm aruging is that the demonic is allowed access to this world
    for a time, and that they are taking full advantage of it.  Why are
    they allowed access?  That is another debate- the fact that they are is
    not only scriptural, but obvious (at least to me).  
    
    
    -steve

    
    Oh good heavens!  Even *I* can heal in the Human Energy Field.  Anybody
    can.  It is not some demonic kind of thing, but a real fact of life, as
    real as your physical body.
    
    For a good book on this kind of healing with a scientific edge, you can 
    pick up, "Light Emerging", by Barbara Brennan.  She is a former NASA 
    physicist and now has her own healing school on Long Island.  A friend 
    of mine has been attending the school for 3+ years now, and has been 
    practicing on me since that time (his 'practice dummy', if you will
    (;^)).  
    
    Or even Dolores Krieger's book entitled, "Therapeutic Touch", which 
    is now actively practiced in many hospitals, and which health care 
    professionals can earn educational credits by going through this 
    training.
    
    If you're interested in all of this from a religious reference
    perspective, read, "The Body Of Light", by Lars and Short (I believe
    these are the authors).  This book provides references from all the
    major religions to the energy body.
    
    Cindy

    
    Throughout history, I think you will find many religious people
    attributing the unknown or unexplainable to demonic forces. 

    Eric

    I'd like to recommend "The Beautiful Side of Evil" by Johanna
    Michelson.  I'd also like to recommend not reading it at night.
    
    Mike

 :-O

    I also read that book.  It is about 140 pages...easy reading!  Gives
    good testimony on the dangers of channeling.
    
    -Jack