Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

 ZZZ   Can non-Christians experience or know God?  
    
    Based on the words of Jesus, I believe the answer is no.  
    
    -Jack

.1 

 ZZZ   Can non-Christians experience or know God?  
    
    Based on the words of Jesus, I believe the answer is no.  

Interesting. To me this would imply a couple of things...

First, this seems to say that having once experienced God you will 
become Christian, i.e. you cannot (or would not) reject him by 
remaining non-Christian. In other words, once you have experienced 
God you become a Christian.

That would mean that, for whatever reason, God chooses not to reveal 
himself to everyone, in fact he does not reveal himself to most (on a 
worldwide level) people. 

If salvation is based upon becoming a Christian, why would he hide 
from so many people rather than choose to save them?

On the other hand, can you be a Christian without ever having known 
or experienced God?

Steve 

    Oppps...rethink...sorry...malfunction.
    
    I believe...based on scriptural evidence, that non Christians can
    experience God.  However, experiencing God can be a blessing or a
    curse, depending on the situation.  As an example, there were some who
    were judged for their sin in the Old Testament...a man who became a
    leper because of his sin.  Then in the New Testament there was Ananias
    and Sapphira who experienced the hand of God when they lied about
    tithing and subsequently died by the hand of God.  They experienced
    God.  The Centurion in the New Testament was not a believer and yet
    experienced Gods mercy and blessing by revivng his daughter from
    sickness.  He may have gotten saved after that...who knows.
    
    Now as far as knowing God, I stand by what I said.  A non believer can
    not know God...because knowing God involves being made holy and
    righteous.  Being made Holy and righteous involves taking upon
    ourselves Gods righteousness and this can only occur through the cross.
    It cannot be done of our own intervention.
    
    -Jack

    God is the God of all people.
    
    Every person  experiences God.  Every person who ever experienced love
    has experienced God. 
    
    A committed effort through prayer, meditation, reading of scriptures
    all help to make the experience of God more relevent to one's own life
    and to all those whom one interacts with.
    
    Calling oneself a Christian, does not necessarily mean that one is
    allowing God to be effective in one's life.  Refusing to call oneself a
    Christian, does not mean that one is rejecting God, but merely
    rejecting a particular path to God.
    
                                    Patricia

    ZZ    Refusing to call oneself a
    ZZ    Christian, does not mean that one is rejecting God, but merely
    ZZ    rejecting a particular path to God.
    
    Therein lies the danger of Universalism.  Jesus taught that there was
    only one path to God and that he was it.
    
    -Jack

    re -1 from Jack Martin
    
    "Jesus Taught that there was only one path to God and that he was it."
    
    It was not Jesus that taught this, but the author of the book of John. 
    The book of John is the most abstract and symbolic of the Gospels.
    
    On an abstract, symbolic level, Jesus is the incarnation of God's love
    for humanity in human form.
    
    The only path to God is through the incarnation of God's love.  i.e.
    giving and receiving human love.  Totally consistent with the OT,
    Matthew, and Paul citing the greatest commandment of all is to love God
    and neighbor.  Totally consistent with the beautiful treastie on love
    in 1John.
    
    Giving and receiving love is a universal human need.  All paths to God
    must include giving and receiving human love.  
    
                                       Patricia

re .0

the quote reminds me once again of a documentary on prayer which i saw 
some time ago (i mentioned this elsewhere). one pastor who was interviewed
there, said that prayer is the journey to the inner self (or higher self) 
and that the higher self is (what is thought of as) god.

if walking the "path of life" leads to discovery of this higher self,
then anyone can experience what christians refer to as god. it is also
very interesting in this context, what the "path of life", which leads
to such discovery, is.




andreas.

Z    The only path to God is through the incarnation of God's love. i.e.
Z    giving and receiving human love.  Totally consistent with the OT,
Z    Matthew, and Paul citing the greatest commandment of all is to love
Z    God and neighbor.  Totally consistent with the beautiful treastie on
Z    love in 1John.
    
    The greatest command is to love God with your whole heart soul and
    mind.  The second is to love your neighbor as yourself.  In this is
    contained the whole law and the prophets.
    
    I believe the last sentence is usually excluded and is key to the
    meaning of what Jesus spoke of.  Human love on it's own is inconsistent 
    and is not unconditional.  In short, it is frail even though it can be
    beautiful.  Peter, for example, displayed human love to Jesus when he
    said he would die for him.  His human love revealed its true self when
    he denied Jesus three times. 
    
    It was not until the day of Pentacost and after that Peter displayed
    the love Jesus was talking about.  Peter was now able to display Godly
    unconditional love because Peter now posessed the Holy
    Spirit...something he did not have before.  Love, as you have
    mentioned, is a gift from God.  An unregenerated individual cannot
    display pure love for God because the same person does not possess the
    Holy Spirit.  Furthermore, pure love from God in essence is Gods' love
    returned to Him.  Humans draw their love from God and return it to God.
    How can one who is walking in a condition of sin know God?  They
    cannot.
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    consider that we are really saying the same thing.
    
    God is love!
    
    Love is God.
    
    We can only love fully if we have the Great Spirit.
    
    If we learn to love fully then we have received the Great Spirit.
    
    We can only love because God loved us first.
    
    Where there is love there is God.
    
    It is a beautiful mystery, Isn't it!
    
    
    

    Patricia:
    
    Everything, I agree with you on except this one...
    
 ZZZZ   If we learn to love fully then we have received the Great Spirit.
    
    It's backwards.  If we receive the Great Spirit, then and only then do
    we have the ability to learn to love fully.  Until we have received the
    Holy Spirit, we are in a perpetual state of separation and we are not
    in fellowship or abiding in God.  If we are not abiding in God, we have
    not received the Great Spirit.  If we have not received the Great
    Spirit we are not made righteous.  If we are not made righteous our sin
    is not atoned for.  If our sin is not atoned for, we face God as our
    judge.  To me, this is the greatest concern of mankind.  Christ is the
    tree trunk, love is the fruit.  No tree...no fruit!
    
    -Jack
    

    Where there is love there is God!
    
    Were there is fruit, there is the trunk!
    
    It's a chicken and egg question.
    
    The Great Spirit is available to everyone.
    Every person learning to love, is connected to that Great Spirit!
    
    We know a person by their fruits.  The fruits of Love demonstrate the
    presence of that Great Spirit!.  Named or Unnamed, the Spirit is
    present where there is Love.
    
    

    The question posed in .0 cannot be answered without 3 definitions...
    
     1) define "Christian... Non-Christian"
     2) define "experience"
     3) define "God"
     
    Webster says that "experience" is "apprehension through the mind, senses
    or emotions".  In other words, becomming aware through cognition, sensing 
    or feeling.  
    
      Can you experience God via mind/cognition?  That's to say can you
      reason God into an experience in much the same way you can experience
      the number "2" by thinking of two "1"s?  -> Not sure.
    
      Can you sense God with one of the 5 senses (sight, hearing, taste,
      smell, touch)?  Hmmmm... maybe, maybe not.
    
      Can you "feel" God with emotions as you might do when you experience
      danger when walking under a ladder?  Is the danger "real" because your
      emotion of fear created it?   -> Ya know, that's a good question.
    
    
    And what is God?  I suppose that debate could go on for a long time (as
    it's been going on for millenia with theologians and philosophers
    around the world).  What's God?  -> Couldn't say.
    
    And finally, what is "Christian"?  Who's the better Christian, the
    murderer/thief/rapist who believes in JC, goes to church but "just can't
    help himself"?  Or the richeous atheist who's actions are those which
    would do JC proud?  Does one's beliefs or actions make someone what
    they are?  Do actions speak louder than words (or beliefs)?  
    -> Ahhhh... what was the question again?
    
    Or... maybe the only honest answer to .0 is "I dunno".  Without using a
    calculator, what's the 8th root of 5476456716458734658734?  The answer
    is "I dunno".  Can non-christians experience God.  My answer is "I
    dunno".  
    
    -dave
    

I think the answer to the basenote question is most obviously yes, even
according to the Bible.

Non-Christans obviously experienced and knew God before the birth of
Jesus.

And look to whom God appears.  It's almost always the ones least expected.
The ones who appear to have God in their hip pocket are almost invariably
caught by surprise.

There's a story about how George Fox convinced a small gathering of
Christians that even the 'heathen, savage' American Indian was influenced
by God; that Christ was the true light that lights every human being who
comes into the world (John 1.9).

Look what the Christians, the saved ones, did to the American Indian.

Shalom,
Richard

 ZZ   Look what the Christians, the saved ones, did to the American Indian.
    
    Richard:
    
    I would be glad to openly admit what bible believing Christians did to
    the American Indian.  Of course you will share with us the history of
    the barbaric acts American Indian tribes did against one another.
    
    Surely you had to expect a knee jerk reaction since multiculturalists
    have this fascination of history revisionism...that being every problem
    that oppressed groups have experienced in this world are the faults of
    Christians and White males.
    
    -Jack

    
    It is clear that God is experienced to some degree through what He has
    made.  However, this knowledge is not adequate to reconcile man to God.
    God's Word provides the details about His nature, life and requirements
    of humanity.
    
    jeff

    .15
    
    What is seldom ever brought to light is the numerous acts of heroism
    demonstrated by Native Americans.  There is plenty of information
    about the violence.
    
    But as you seem to insist, Christianity isn't about how one treats one's
    neighbor.
    
    Richard
    

    Thinking about it more last evening, I understand your point the
    Christianity above all should be above reproach; and wiping out tribes
    of men women and children in the name of God is not what Christ
    commisiioned the church to be a part of.  Bible believing believers are
    without excuse.
    
    I am sensitive to historical revisionism so please excuse me if I came
    across in a crass manner.  
    
    -Jack

    re revisionist history and Native peoples -  
    
    it's sobering to recall that this country was founded in the name of
    religious freedom.
    
    A better term would be genocide.

    Do you acknowledge that many of these Indian tribes were just as
    barbaric to each other?
    
    -Jack

    Yes I do, however, that doesn't excuse the barbarity of people who
    should have known better by their stated beliefs.  IMHO.  
    
    Last year I received something in the mail explaining how America is
    the new chosen land, as there were no people here before the influx of
    christians.  Talke about the true denial of humanity to those of
    another culture.
    
    meg

    Yes...that would be revisionism which I think is criminal!
    
 ZZ   that doesn't excuse the barbarity of people who
 ZZ       should have known better by their stated beliefs. 
    
    Doesn't excuse them at all.  I believe they were deceived.
    
    -Jack

>    Doesn't excuse them at all.  I believe they were deceived.
    
But at least the Christian ones were saved.

Richard

 ZZZ   But at least the Christian ones were saved.
    
    Glad to see you agree with me Richard.  There is no sin in the world
    that cannot be forgiven or cast away at the cross.  Even the self
    righteous believer will one day face the judgement seat of Christ and 
    will yet realize their righteousness was bestowed upon them and not
    earned on their own behalf.
    
    This reminds me alot of Jonah's situation.  God commanded Jonah to
    preach repentence to the people of Ninevah.  Jonah refused...feeling
    the evil people of Ninevah deserved judgement.  And yet God saw past
    all that.  We can rejoice in that even the deceived and the ignorant
    will have their sin cast away at the foot of the cross.
    
    -Jack

    On the others hand, it shows that the saved ones can be just as
    destructive, self-centered and evil as those who are not.
    
    Richard
    

    ZZ    On the others hand, it shows that the saved ones can be just as
    ZZ    destructive, self-centered and evil as those who are not.
    
    I'll go one better.  Saved ones can be exponentially worse.  What a
    wonderful tool for Satan to try and erode the church and those who
    follow the Lord.
    
    Paul speaks of a "Great Apostacy", or a great falling away.  Jesus
    himself quoted, "And because iniquity will abound, the hearts of many
    will wax cold."  I believe this is an important point.  It proves that
    there is a distinction between the Holy Spirit and that small little
    voice.  There is a constant battle between the flesh and the Spirit..
    and being FILLED with the Holy Spirit is a daily practice and a
    commandment of God.  Without the filling of the Holy Spirit, sin will
    most assuredly abound!
    
    -Jack

re .26

Jack,

;Without the filling of the Holy Spirit, sin will most assuredly abound!

I disagree, for example Job kept his integrity towards God no
matter what Satan threw at him. There many other examples of
faithful ones recorded in Hebrews 11.


Phil.

    Phil:
    
    Job also questioned God (understandably).  Furthermore, many of the
    people listed in Hebrews 11 also displayed the worst cases of sin. 
    Moses was a murderer and through his lack of faith never saw the
    promised land.  Sarah laughed at the Word of God when told she was
    going to bear a son.  Abraham is now recognized as the father of the
    moslem nation through hius lack of faith with Hagar.  King David leaves
    two strong legacies, one of great favor and faith...and the other one
    of sin.  Jacob, whose name means the trickster, pulled quite a few
    stunts in his time as well and as we see from his offspring, the apple
    does not fall far from the tree.
    
    All these people, even though they were of great faith, at one time or
    another allowed their focus to go off of the Lord and the flesh
    prevailed.  
    
    -Jack

re .28

Jack,

Ofcourse they erred from time to time, as spirit anointed
Christians do also. David's was a grave sin but was forgiven 
for his repentent attitude and previous standing was 
no doubt taken into account. He had a deep love for God
from which he had strayed but then accepted the correction.

The point I was disagreeing with, was that sin must
assuredly abound because persons are not filled with 
holy spirit. The inclination of fallen flesh is to sin,
but those that love God will put up a fight just as
the spirited anointed Paul did. One has to love God
whether spirit anointed or not to fight the inclinations
of the sinful flesh. The reason that sin abounds today
is that the love of the greater number has cooled off,
as prophecised by Jesus "And because wickedness is 
multiplied, most men's love will grow cold." Matthew 
24:12 RSV


It is the lack of love for God that makes sin abound,
it is not a quality that a Christian can be lacking
whether spirit anointed or not.

Phil.

    To me, Spirit annointed and Spirit filled are two different things.  
    Spirit annointed is displaying the power of the Holy Spirit through
    you.  Preaching Jesus crucified and risen as Peter did in Jerusalem,
    Speaking in Tongues, etc.
    
    Being filled with the Spirit is our daily involvement in walking not
    after the flesh and practicing Holiness.  If one is not filled with the
    Spirit, then one's eyes are on their flesh.  Focusing off the Lord is 
    opening us to sin.
    
    -Jack

i think the article below is very relevant to this topic.

the article is copied from "http://www.infi.net/~thobbs/cc.html"

enjoy!

andreas.




   What is Cosmic Consciousness ?

   Dr. Richard Maurice Bucke M.D., in Cosmic Consciousness , described
   it thus: 

   "This consciousness shows the Cosmos to consist not of dead matter
   governed by unconsciousness, rigid, and unintending law; it shows it
   on the contrary as entirely immaterial, entirely spiritual, and
   entirely alive; it shows that death is an absurdity, that everyone
   and everything has eternal life; it shows that the universe is God
   and that God is the universe, and that no evil ever did or ever will
   enter into it; a great deal of this, of course, is from the point of
   view of self consciousness, absurd; it is nevertheless undoubtedly
   true." 

   It is said that the attainment of Enlightenment (supernatural insight
   - Nirvana - Illumination - Cosmic Consciousness ) will cause a man to
   become": 

   "Beloved, popular, respected among his fellows, victorious over
   discontent and lust, over spiritual danger and dismay; will bestow
   upon him the ecstacy of contemplation, will enable him to reach with
   his body and remain in, those stages of deliverance which are
   incorporeal and pass beyond phenomena; cause him to become an
   inheritor of the highest heavens; make him being one to become
   multiple; being multiple to become one; will endow him with clear and
   heavenly ear far surpassing that of men; enable him to comprehend
   with his own heart the hearts of other beings, and of other men, to
   understand all minds, the passionate, the calm, [many kinds of
   persons, cut for brevity]; give him the power to call to mind his
   various temporary states in days gone by; to call to mind his
   temporary states in days gone by in all their modes and in their
   details; to see with pure and heavenly vision surpassing that of men,
   beings as they pass from one state of existence and take form in
   others ; beings base or noble, good looking or ill favored, happy or
   miserable; to know and realize emancipation of heart and emancipation
   of mind.* 

   * Dr. Bucke's footnote, "the final and supreme test" 

   And from Jacob Boehme - The Supersensual Life 

   The Disciple said to his Master: Sir, how may I come to the
   Supersensual Life, so that I may see God, and hear God speak? 

   The Master answered and said: Son, when thou canst throw thyself into
   That, where no Creature dwelleth, though it be but for a Moment, then
   thou hearest what God speaketh. 

   Disciple. Is that where no Creature dwelleth near at hand; or is it
   afar off? 

   Master. It is in thee. And if thou canst, my Son, for a while but
   cease from all thy thinking and willing, then thou shalt hear the
   unspeakable Words of God. 

   Disciple. How can I hear Him speak, when I stand still from thinking
   and willing? 

   Master. When thou standest still from the thinking of self, and the
   willing of self; "When both thy intellect and will are quiet, and
   passive to the Impressions of the Eternal Word and Spirit; and when
   thy Soul is winged up, and above that which is temporal, the outward
   Senses, and the Imagination being locked up by holy Abstraction,"
   then the Eternal Hearing, Seeing, and Speaking will be revealed in
   thee; and so God heareth "and seeth through thee," being now the
   Organ of His Spirit; and so God speaketh in thee, and whispereth to
   thy Spirit, and thy Spirit heareth His Voice. Blessed art thou
   therefore if that thou canst stand still from Self-thinking and
   Self-willing, and canst stop the Wheel of thy Imagination and Senses
   forasmuch as hereby thou mayest arrive at length to see the great
   Salvation of God being made capable of all Manner of Divine
   Sensations and Heavenly Communications. Since it is nought indeed but
   thine own Hearing and Willing that do hinder thee, so that thou dost
   not see and hear God. 



(contd.)

   Who might ever have had Cosmic Consciousness ?

   Dr. Bucke lists 13 major cases - 

   Gautama (the Buddha), Jesus the Christ, Apostle Paul, Plotinus,
   Mohammed, Dante, Las Casas, John Yepes (St. John of the Cross),
   Francis Bacon, Jacob Boehme, William Blake, Balzac, and Walt Whitman. 

   What kind of person experiences Cosmic Consciousness ?

   In Dr. Bucke's words, "Cosmic Consciousness, then, appears in
   individuals who are otherwise highly developed, of good intellect, of
   high moral qualities, and superior physique [basically healthy]. It
   appears at about that time of life when the organism is at the high
   watermark of efficiency, at the age of thirty to forty years." 

   Personally, I don't think there are any age limitations but Dr. Bucke
   was simply looking at it from the point of view of those in whom it
   arose apparently spontaneously. [Web Author] 

   Are there any prerequistes to the attainment of Cosmic Consciousness?

   Quite unfortunately, Dr. Bucke did not take up this issue adequately,
   however many other spiritual teachers have spoken of it. Jesus the
   Christ made note of one major prerequisite to entering the Kingdom of
   Heaven i.e. Cosmic Consiousness. In a discussion on rebirth with
   Nicodemus, he said "Truly I say to you, unless a man be born of water
   [equivalent to Chinese concept of Yin] and of the Spirit [the Chinese
   concept of Yang] he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven." In a most
   fascinating little book called The Secret of the Golden Flower, an
   ancient text on Chinese Alchemy, it is made clear that rebirth is
   literally "like conception". It is the spontaneous appearance of "a
   point of the true light pole Yang". Without this seed of rebirth,
   there will be no growth into The Golden Flower of Enlightenment. 

   How can rebirth be achieved?

   I can only attest to my own experience of rebirth as having been the
   result of practicing the techniques as put forth in the Secret of the
   Golden Flower. Just as was said in the book, I experienced rebirth
   approximately 100 days after the beginning of my practice [ 90
   actually ]. There was a catch however. Even though the mentioned time
   had almost passed i.e. 100 days, I myself felt the presence of
   another person in my room the night my rebirth took place. Many
   spiritual teachers have initiated or baptized their students into
   rebirth. I personally feel that I was delivered into rebirth by Jesus
   the Christ. I have explained this a bit more in detail in the story
   of my mystical experiences. It is worth noting that Dr. Bucke, while
   not treating of rebirth specifically, did remark that all Iluminated
   persons feel within themselves the ability to give it to others. What
   a person receives is most likely heavily dependent upon their
   personal state of readiness. 

   A Personal Approach to Rebirth

   My approach to Rebirth is based on experience. Unlike many others who
   speak of mystical relationships, I do not feel that it is necessary
   to get oneself worked up over every little detail of your outward
   life. All the worrying in the world over "doing the right thing" or
   watching lest you commit some specific "sin", or building up Karma is
   just not going to help bring about Rebirth. These matters will take
   care of themselves once the seed of Rebirth, that Immaculate Seed of
   the Holy Spirit dwells with you. A more efficient and sure approach
   to Rebirth is simply the redirection of your thoughts, placing them
   on and towards the goal of attaining Union with God. The words of
   Apostle Paul are appropos to the work ahead - "Be ye transformed by
   the renewing of your mind". You can start the process of renewal
   easily with your dream life. 

   Each night when you go to bed, ask God to teach you in your dreams,
   how to come to know Him. Ask Him to send the Holy Spirit to you to
   baptize you into a new relationship. If you ask and ask sincerely, He
   will not deny you. Remember your dreams and at least for a while,
   write them down. Learn to think of every experience as a way to learn
   something about the relationship between yourself and the universe
   around you. During the day, at every opportunity, take time to dwell
   on the things of Spirit. Make it a habit to be always on the alert
   for ways that you could be getting messages from Spirit, ways that
   you may not even realize that messages are coming to you. These are
   things like intuitive impressions, so called "synchronicity"
   experiences, and the like. Look for dreams to come true, for your
   nightly dream life and your daily life to become a continuous
   on-going "conversation" with Spirit. Do whatever you can to start
   focusing your mind inward instead of outward. Be creative in your
   methods. God won't mind, really! 

   Learn to meditate on the things of the Spirit. Take time each night
   to sit quietly alone and listen to what your intuition is "saying" to
   you. If you would like, you will find the "Circulation of the Light",
   as outlined in Secret of the Golden Flower a simple and
   straightforward approach to preparing your mind and body for the
   receipt of the rebirth experience. It is safe and effective. You can
   obtain a copy of the book at almost any bookstore. Start now to
   re-think your relationship with the Holy Spirit. Start now to renew
   your mind for rebirth. 




(contd.)

   What are the common characteristics of persons with Cosmic
   Consciousness ?

   The appearance of a subjective light [such as to the Apostle Paul on
   the road to Damascus] 

   Moral elevation 

   Intellectual illumination 

   The sense of immortality [knowing not reasoning] 

   The loss of the fear of death 

   The loss of the sense of sin 

   The suddenness of the awakening 

   The previous character of the person 

   The added charm to the personality so that men and women are strongly
   attracted to the person 

   They feel at least some ability to give it to others 

   The transfiguration of the subject of the change as seen by others
   when the Cosmic Sense is actually present 


   If all these people knew so much, why didn't they tell us in a way we
   could all understand?

   From Walt Whitman's words - 

   "When I undertake to tell the best I find I cannot, My tongue is
   ineffectual on its pivots, My breath will not be obedient to its
   organs, I become a dumb man". 

   And Apostle Paul, when he was "caught up into paradise" heard
   "unspeakable words". 

   Naturally, there is much more to know about Cosmic Consciousness.

   Dr. Bucke's book can be obtained from: 

   Sales Dept - Arkana Penquin USA 375 Hudson Street New York, New York
   10014 




(end)

    Typical New Age teachings, IMO.  Heard it all before in different
    (and more convincing) presentations. 
    
    
    -steve

    Interesting that Abraham, Jacob, and others are being brought up under
    this topic.  These were non-Christians, too.
    
    Richard
    

    Andreas,
    
    I think I like the term "spiritual enlightenment" better than cosmic
    consciousness.  With it comes the knowledge (again heartfelt and not
    intellectual) that we are all related to one another and related to all
    that is in the universe.
    
    Alfred North Whitehead in his book Religion in the making identifies
    the question "What is the nature of God" as the fundemental question to
    every religion.  He identifies two different answers which he believes
    influence all world religions.
    
    One God as an individual, creator of the the Universe.
    God as the Universe.  The Universe as God.
    
    Whitehead identifies major problems with each definition and then goes
    on to define God as a combination of both.
    
    I believe that the major problem with the God as the Universe, the
    Universe as God is in the problem of evil.  Evil really does exist, and
    I do not believe that definition provides good answers to the existence
    of evil.
    
    THere is truth in the analysis, but again not absolute truth.
    
    
                                Patricia

    The Bible is very clear that God is outside of his creation.  God is
    not the universe (his creation) and the universe (his creation) is not
    God.  
    
    The God = universe and universe = God is a New Age teaching, and is not
    compatible with Christianity.  
    
    
    -steve

    Steve,
    
    There is a Cosmic tradition to be found in much of the Bible.  The  God
    is everywhere tradition.  The Holy Spirit that bloweth where it may. 
    The  Christ in all things.  The Cosmic Christ that dwells within all.
    
    Mathew Fox in his book  "The Cosmic Christ" does a good job of
    identifying the biblical passages supporting this aspect of
    Christianity.
    
                                       Patricia

    Richard:
    
    That may be because Hebrews 11 speaks only on Old Testament heroes.  
    
    The Holy Spirit in the times of old did not dwell within the hearts of
    man.  The Holy Spirit came upon people and the Holy Spirit could leave
    a person.  I know that Saul for example, the first King of Israel,
    sinned and the Holy Spirit departed from him.  
    
    In the Church age, the Holy Spirit dwells within the heart of man, yet
    the Holy Spirit can be quenched or grieved.  I know in my life the Holy
    Spirit has a share of grief, but redemption supersedes any wrong I may
    commit.  
    
    "My beloved Chirldren, my prayer is that you do not but; but if you do
    sin, we have an advocate with the Father.  The Lord Jesus Christ."
    
    Now I would like to comment a little more on your statements regarding 
    the hypocrites of years past.  The self righteous who lived and who
    live today.  Richard, all I can say is that there is no sin that is 
    too difficult to forgive once you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.  
    I believe many of their works will burn with the chaff...but I also
    believe, like the Ninevites of the time of Jonah, that God's grace
    abounds even to those whom we feel aren't deserving of it.
    
    -Jack

    It's not important to me to know where what aspect dwells or doesn't
    dwell.  God is both immanent and transcendent.
    
    Richard
    

    Amen Richard!
    
    Reconciling the theory of Inerrancy, trinitarianism, and the
    immutability of God sure does get complicated as demonstrated in .40

    Patricia:
    
    At least I have the courage to use the Word of God in reconciling these
    matters....to which there is always the possibility of having to leave
    one's comfort zone.
    
    You ought to give it a try.  It can really be envigorating!
    
    -Jack
    

    The Word of God, of course, is more than the written Canon.  Always has
    been.  Always will be.
    
    Richard
    

    I am truly inspired by the book of Nehemiah and Ezra.  After years of
    exile and no Torah, Ezra who is spoken of as an expert in the law
    stands in front of a podium and once the Book of the Law is opened, the
    exiled Israelites stands in silence and in reverence of the Holy
    scriptures.  
    
    I am not surprised in todays world but am somewhat saddened that the
    scriptures are not held in the esteem or regard they were during that
    time.
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1132.43 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" >>>


| At least I have the courage to use the Word of God in reconciling these
| matters....to which there is always the possibility of having to leave one's 
| comfort zone.

	Jack, you believe the book to be the inerrant Word of God. Why would it
be courageous for someone to use something they may not believe is the inerrant
Word of God? 


Glen

    Point noted!!

<-----GASP!

.45

Don't get me wrong, Jack.  I do honor, treasure and revere that collection
of works we call the Holy Bible.  Mine -- and I have several -- all show
signs of wear.

Incidentally, Richard Friedman puts forth a very interesting hypothesis
concerning Ezra (another non-Christian) in his book, "Who Wrote the Bible?"

Shalom,
Richard