Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    why does she wear a different dress every day?

Note 1131.1

>    why does she wear a different dress every day?

I hadn't noticed that she does.  And I doubt that I'll be asking.

Richard

    	And of course this discussion wouldn't be complete without the
    	necessary caveat about sham beggars.  I may as well be the one
    	to raise that flag.
    
    	In this town, Richard, there are ample entry-level, unskilled
    	jobs to accommodate most anyone who is willing to work.  It 
    	seems apparent that the woman in the basenote has the time to
    	work if she has the time to beg...  (I agree that this last
    	statement is a rash judgement on my part, but no more rash 
    	than the last statement you made in the basenote.)
    	
    	For those who are absolutely unemployable there are homeless
    	shelters and soup kitchens in town to provide for the "homeless
    	and 'hungrey'".
    
    	I wouldn't have been surprised if the woman turned down your
    	offer to buy her a sandwich.  I know there have been several
    	documented examples of such beggers (right here in town) turning
    	down offers for cash-paying work eventhough the signs they were
    	holding said "Will work for food".

    Yeah, you're probably right.
    
    Richard
    

    "Are there not work-houses? Are there not orphanages?"
    
    				-E. Scrooge

	Rather than hand the woman $5, do 5 hours of work at a
	soup kitchen or homeless shelter.

	Or send your tax-deductible contribution ($7 instead of $5,
	or more appropriately, $700 instead of $500) to a soup
	kitchen, homeless shelter, and orphanage.

/john

>	Rather than hand the woman $5, do 5 hours of work at a
>	soup kitchen or homeless shelter.

>	Or send your tax-deductible contribution ($7 instead of $5,
>	or more appropriately, $700 instead of $500) to a soup
>	kitchen, homeless shelter, and orphanage.

Yeah, I guess there are lots of better ways.  And I was probably hoodwinked.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Richard

    Richard,
    
    I am going to take a slightly diffent tack on this.  While there are a
    fair number of "unskilled" jobs going begging in this city, there are
    often prerequisites that a person who is mentally ill or who has an
    "invisible" physical handicap can't meet.  
    
    The salad place doesn't want a person who is living in a shelter
    working for them as they may be harboring TB, heppititus, and a host of
    other diseases that are incompatible with safe food handling of raw
    vegetables.  This also goes for fast food resturants.  Likewise the
    large number of telemarketers here don't want a mentally unstable
    person working on sales over the phone.  Unlike Denver we don't have a
    women's bean project or much in the way of job assistance and training
    for homeless women in our community, particularly if the woman has no 
    living minor children in her custody.  
    
    Rents in the community right now are too high for one person with a
    minimum wage job to afford, and many businesses don't hire someone with
    a "Rio Grande" address.  (Rio Grande St. is the street the local
    shelter is on.)  One thing you might be able to do would be to talk to
    her and see if you can get Ecumenical Services to help her with the
    basics.  The former father Steve Handen has done much work in this
    direction, and seems to be able to get PPMH and job services working
    with difficult cases.  
    
    Of course this does mean buying her a sandwich and sitting down to talk
    to her, rather than seeing her as a scamming person.  If she is
    mentally unstable this can be scary, trust me, I live in a neighborhood
    full of halfway homes for those who can't quite make it on their own. 
    The neighborhoods away from downtown and the west side NIMBY enough
    that it is unlikely you would meet people of this sort on the east
    side.
    
    meg

my 'policy' is to give to every other beggar in the neighbourhood who
_asks_ for help.

outside town or in foreign countries, ie. in unfamiliar environments
(how do you know that you're being set up when you get your wallet out?),
i am more cautious about giving to beggars. though i tend to stay with
my 'policy'.

i usually give what the person asks for (or ask how much s/he wants),
which usually works out to the price of a sandwich or a portion of the
pay in the overnight shelter.

there are people who can't work, won't work or may even just beg as a
profession. basically, it really isn't any of my business why someone 
begs. i have more money than what i need to meet my basic needs and i
think there is something noble and honest in begging as much as there
is something noble and honest in giving to a beggar.

bottom line: giving to a beggar makes two people feel good for very 
little cost!




andreas.

 ZZ   bottom line: giving to a beggar makes two people feel good for very 
 ZZ   little cost!
    
    Andreas:
    
    You're intentions are well meaninged; however, you are correct.  In
    Boston, there is a propensity to make beggars happy.  Many of them
    take the money and then proceed to their favorite road house or liquor
    store, and then they become happy.
    
    The best thing to do Andreas is to offer them gift certificates to
    local restaurants or some such.  Then you can be happy and he can
    possibly be happy...it depends on how he looks at it.
    
    -Jack

lazy, selfish, hedonistic sinner that i am, jack, i have neither your 
foresight nor your high and altruisitic intentions for my fellow human. 
i am unlikely to equip myself with lunch vouchers. if the wo/man aks for 
cash i give cash. if s/he's going to burn his/her liver with it or if 
s/he's going to use it for spending the cold night in the shelter, s/he'll 
more than likely have a kind thought for me as i do for him/her and i'll 
be further enriched by once again reflecting on the relative merits of 
an ultra-simplisitic existance!

as for the beggar, i fully trust s/he knows how to stay warm.

btw, what did the most famous beggar of ancient greece, diogenes, ask for, 
when sitting infront of his barrel, and when the mighty emperor alexander 
standing before him, offered the beggar anything within the emperor's reach?
'stand to the right and make way for the light' was the beggars request, 
as the emperor's mighty stature threw a shadow on the beggars favorit 
sitting spot...



andreas.

    I guess the bottom line is the outcome of my good deed.  Certainly
    there are beggars out there who are legitamately down on their "luck".
    However, giving somebody money just for the sake of giving money is not
    necessarily prudent...and this outlook is supported by scripture.  We
    all know food is sustainance but cigarettes and Rum are not.  One who
    is charitable will not...I REPEAT...will not help anybody out unless
    the one who is down is able to develop a vision for their own life. 
    Giving them the means to buy real food is honorable.  Giving money to
    somebody who could potentially die right there of cirrohsis is not
    charitable by any means.  You are just giving them bullets to a gun.
    
    -Jack

    	Excellent, Jack!  Outcome-based enriching!
    
    	:^)

    {look of shock and horror}

    WHY IS EVERYBODY PICKING ON ME TODAY!!! 
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

how do you determine in that short interaction between you and the 
beggar if s/he "is able to develop a vision for their own life"?

and what if the vision was 'rather live the life of a beggar than
work for my next heart attack'?




andreas.

 ZZ   and what if the vision was 'rather live the life of a beggar than
 ZZ   work for my next heart attack'?
    
    Andreas:
    
    The epistle of Paul to the Thessolonians states that if one does not
    work then one should not eat.  This wasn't meant to be mean or
    hardhearted but that work is sustainence to ones life just as food is. 
    Even Adam and Eve were responsible for tending the garden.
    
    If a begger wants a vision to be a beggar, then I believe it is wrong
    to encourage this.
    
    -Jack

>    I guess the bottom line is the outcome of my good deed.

Is this what God requires or what culture requires?

Shalom,
Richard

re .17


>   The epistle of Paul to the Thessolonians states that if one does not
>   work then one should not eat.  


you're not seriously suggesting jack, that paul wanted the unemployed
to starve to death???



andreas.

    No more than I'm suggesting Jesus was a cry baby because scripture says
    Jesus wept.  
    
    I believe Paul was sppeaking of the slothful who made it a career to be
    a beggar.  I was addressing your inquiry that there are some out there
    who simply choose to be a beggar.  Scripture soesn't support the notion
    of encouraging this behavior.
    
    -Jack

 ZZ   Is this what God requires or what culture requires?
    
    Richard:
    
    The comment was addressed to one who gives money to a beggar...knowing
    they are going to buy a bottle of Scotch with it.  It was simply be
    returning good for evil.
    
    -Jack

re .20


of course the first question in .16, is more difficult to tackle.

fact of the matter is that begging for a living is not usually done
for fun and that most people who beg do so for lack of alternatives.




andreas.

    We must also not misuse "Paul's" letters to the Thessoloneans.
    
    In that letter, some people, expecting the end of time to come, were
    not attending to worldly affairs but awaiting the end time.  2
    Thessoneans(probably not written by Paul)  was specifically to tell
    people to get back to the affairs of day to day life.
    
    If we look at the mentally ill and the alcoholics as humans inflicted
    with a disease, we cannot in good conscience use "Paul's" letters to
    justify not feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and visiting the
    prisoner".

    Correct.  I was again only referring to able bodied individuals who
    don't care to make something of themselves.  I know such a person who
    has a wife and a little boy...and the guy is LAZY...pure and simple.
    
    He is shirking his God given responsibility to care for his own and
    consequently becoming a burden to you and I.  I simply have no
    compassion for this.
    
    -Jack

true. there is not much compassion for beggars shining out of you jack.

now i wouldn't go and judge all christians going just by your example. as 
far as i can tell so far, beggars don't range high on your priority list, 
lest you keep your good light well hidden.

there are some very outstanding christians that i know off, who pick beggars
off the streets and who get them organised into self-sufficient and even 
profitable small enterprises. it is odd that such christians are often at 
odds with the mainstream church though. in my neighbourhood church, the 
church board moved to fire the priest because he proposed to use the church 
as shelter for the homeless. in france, a catholic bishop, known as the bishop
of the homeless was 'retired' by the vatican for his unconvential measures of 
looking after the most needy.

a begging hand streched out in search of help causes discomfort. no doubt.
particulary to someone who must measure up to the high ideals of christianity. 
particulary if the hand its poised at the entry of a shopping mall where 
you're about to tend to your little needs.

i am sure glad i don't have to measure up to the high ideals of christianity. 
that's way too strenuous. i'd rather afford myself the occasional luxury
of giving help when i think that help is needed. as i said, at the very
least, it makes two people happy this way.




andreas.

Z    now i wouldn't go and judge all christians going just by your example.
Z    as far as i can tell so far, beggars don't range high on your priority
Z    list, lest you keep your good light well hidden.
    
    I'm sorry...I guess I didn't explain clearly.  What I said was I
    believe in supporting the poor...and helping those in need to develop a
    vision for their lives.  What is unscriptural is giving money to those
    who would spend it on booze and cigarettes.  I fail to see what is
    uncharitable about this.  Why would somebody knowingly support an
    individual who was going to use the money to drink themselves to
    potential death.  Help me out with this please!
    
    -Jack

Re: .12 Jack

>    Giving money to
>    somebody who could potentially die right there of cirrohsis is not
>    charitable by any means.  You are just giving them bullets to a gun.
    
This reminds me of the lyrics to one of my favorite songs, by Steely Dan.
(From memory, may not be 100% correct.)

	Charlie Freak had but one thing to call his own
	Three weighed ounce pure golden ring no precious stone
	Five nights without a bite
	No place to lay his head
	And if nobody takes him in he'll soon be dead

	On the street he spied my face I heard him hail
	In our plot of frozen space he told his tale
	Poor man, he showed his hand
	So righteous was his need
	And me so wise I bought his prize for chickenfeed

	Newfound cash soon makes to smash a state of mind
	Close inspection fast revealed his favorite kind
	Poor kid, he overdid
	Embraced a spreading haze
	And while he sighed his body died in fifty ways

	When I heard I grabbed a cab to where he lay
	Round his arm a plastic tag read D.O.A.
	Yes Jack, I gave it back
	The ring I could not own
	Now come my friend I'll take your hand and lead you home

				-- Bob

    Well, my favorite song is "Josie"!  From SD that is!
    
    

re .27

>                             Why would somebody knowingly support an
>   individual who was going to use the money to drink themselves to
>   potential death.  Help me out with this please!
    
i don't know if i can, jack. often its not about giving money. 
it is about giving some dignity to the person who's asking for help. 
just simply by listening and not looking down on them.




andreas.

    Andreas:
    
    It isn't a matter of looking down on anybody.  It is a matter of
    providing the proper help needed to help them overcome hunger and
    poverty.  Giving money to somebody with full knowledge they are going
    to further erode their liver is NOT helping somebody...no matter how
    warm and fuzzy it makes the giver feel.  All one is doing by giving is
    providing he/she the means to further kill themselves.
    
    "Wine is a mocker and strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is
    deceived thereby is not wise."  This quote was written by King Solomon
    many years ago.  I believe that just because one hands over money to
    somebody doesn't always constitute charity.
    
    -Jack

on a cold night, even a drunkard or a drug addict looks for a warm 
place to put his head down. if you meet one close to the shelter, 
fifteen minutes before the shelter's doors close and the beggar is 
stressed to get the money together for the overnight stay, how do
you help?




andreas.

i went to shul with a friend last year one of the breakout 
sessions dealt with "almsgiving". the rabbi who was doing
the presentation told of the large number of drug addicts
in Jerusalem who would beg money and then purchase their
drugs with the money.

the discussion was quite similar to what has been spoken of
here. the rabbi's conclusion, however, was...we are commanded
by God to give to those who ask us for assistance..we must
fulfill this commandment. if the person who asks for the alms
uses them in an inappropriate way, then that is something that
is between them and God.

personally, i always give to those who ask me for money whether
i think that it is being used for drink, drugs, or whatever.
i believe the rabbi's analysis to be correct.

peter

Re: .32 Andreas

>on a cold night, even a drunkard or a drug addict looks for a warm 
>place to put his head down. if you meet one close to the shelter, 
>fifteen minutes before the shelter's doors close and the beggar is 
>stressed to get the money together for the overnight stay, how do
>you help?

You offer to go into the shelter with the drunkard and pay for the
overnight stay.

This is similar to what I did when I was in Atlanta for DECUS a couple of
years ago.  A man asked me for money so he could spend the night at a
shelter.  Rather than give him the money, I told him that I'd walk with
him to the shelter, which turned out to be about a mile away, and pay the
shelter for him to stay there.  We got to the shelter, but eventually the
man decided that he didn't want to stay there, so we went our separate
ways.

				-- Bob

    Exactly Bob...which is my very point.  Even our government understands
    the nature of the human will by issuing food stamps instead of just
    sending cash.  
    
    Peter, I must respectfully disagree with the Pastor.  I believe there
    is a definite need to fulfill the commandments Jesus gave us, i.e.
    loving thy neighbor...just as the good Samaritan did.  And in a sense,
    the Rabbi is correct that how the Drunkard uses the money is between he
    and God.  However, I believe aiding a drunkard to get drunk is
    wreckless on our part.
    
    -Jack

re .34


hi bob. i should mention that i am confronted with the situation described
(and many other ones) very often because i live in the red-light district of 
zurich (switzerland) and this is easily this country's roughest square mile.

so i am used to beggars. even so i often find myself close to falling into 
the trap of taking a patronising attitude. if a person sincerely asks for
money for shelter and is then walked to the shelter, this is in my eyes, 
quite a demeaning treatment of the person. demeaning because the action is 
based on mistrust and it is not taking the one who asks, for full. on top 
of it, the treatment is overkill considering you're talking about one or 
two dollars.

please bob, do not take this reply as a criticism of your proposition. 
a few years ago i would have done the same (and i still occasionally do). 
this reply is a self-criticism and a criticism of what i see as a patronising 
and mistrusting attitute taken in christian environments towards needy 
individuals. i find such environments quite suffocating as there is no 
place left for spirit.

when a person in rags asks sincerely for very little help, that person is 
putting his/her diginity (what little that is left of it) in your hands.
you can spit on it, you can belittle it or you can return the fragile gift,
unimpaired. this exchange, is what elevates you and the beggar, and what
makes the beggar value your few coins.




andreas.

    I believe that too often middle class american's give with a sense of
    paternalism.  A sense that those who are well off are "better" than
    those who are not and that they must protect those to whom they give.
    
    I believe that each of us is related.  There is not a whole lot of
    difference between the person who is relatively well off and the person
    who is not.  The well off person is luckier (perhaps).  We must give
    because we are part of the problem and therefore must be part of the
    solution.  Not because we are better than those who are in need.
    
    

ZZ    We must give
ZZ    because we are part of the problem and therefore must be part of
ZZ    the solution.  Not because we are better than those who are in need.
    
    Exactly.  This is not denied by somebody such as myself.  It isn't so
    much a matter of myself thinking I am better than others but the
    distrust can and does exist.  I have seen the abuse of charity far too
    much in my own lifetime...both in regard to individual helping and the
    so called Great Society.
    
    Keep in mind that while there is a man asking for help on Causeway
    Street, there may also be a woman with two children needing help on
    Tremont Street.  The Causeway man may very well need a fix while the
    woman with two children may really need a place to stay.  In my mind,
    the man on Causeway is stealing from the woman on Tremont for selfish
    reasons...and I believe that love must be tempered with accountability,
    particularly when you are dealing with people you don't know.  I
    believe perceived love without responsibility or accountability is
    wreckless.
    
    Patricia, your use of the word Patriarchy is perjorative.  Lord knows I
    have seen some Matriarchies in my life that were the epitomy of 
    maniacal and dysfunctional at best.
    
    -Jack

I'd rather be patronizing than to just give people cash without knowing
how the money will be spent.  If they choose to reject my help that's up
to them.

				-- Bob

    Jack,
    
    Matriarchy is not the opposite of Patriarchy.
    
    Those opposing patriarchal structures usually oppose all forms of
    hierarchical structures.
    
    Which note were you commenting on, by the way?

   <<< Note 1131.36 by DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what U have" >>>

>the trap of taking a patronising attitude. if a person sincerely asks for
>money for shelter and is then walked to the shelter, this is in my eyes, 
>quite a demeaning treatment of the person. demeaning because the action is 
>based on mistrust ...
    
    	Well I'll be the first to admit that I mistrust the begger.
    	There is no way that I can know the sincerity of the person,
    	and my first instinct is to expect that they are not sincere.
    	Maybe I'm painting with a broad brush and assuming that the
    	many cases of sham beggers is more representative than not,
    	but it is my brush to paint with, and it is my money/time/
    	effort to give.  And I give a lot.  I've stopped giving to
    	the United Way because of misuse of money by administrators,
    	and I exercise the same discrimination with the rest of my
    	almsgiving.  I now give directly to the organizations I wish
    	to support rather than filtering it through the discretion of
    	umbrella organizations, and I likewise see nothing wrong with 
    	giving directly to the need expressed by the begger (buy him
    	a sandwich) rather than trust his discretion with cash.
    
    	I'm not worried about demeaning the begger if my choice of
    	contribution might hint to him that I don't trust him.  
    	Certainly he must feel demeaned already in having to beg!  
    	If my choices are to give to him as I choose to give or to
    	refuse to help at all (and those ARE the only two choices
    	I have by my own rules) then which will be more demeaning to 
    	him?  If his need is real, then he'll be glad to accept 
    	whatever help I'm willing to give him, even if it is not 
    	exactly what he expected me to do for him.  If his need is 
    	not real, then I doubt he feels demeaned so much as he feels 
    	guilty knowing that I saw through the farce and called his 
    	bluff.

  ZZ   I believe that too often middle class american's give with a sense of
  ZZ   paternalism.  A sense that those who are well off are "better" than
  ZZ   those who are not and that they must protect those to whom they
  ZZ   give.
    
    But thanks for clarifying it.
    
    -Jack

    There was a man in Worcester who held up a sign which said...
    
    
    
    "What the Hell...Why Lie...I Need A Beer!"
    
    Well, you wouldn't believe the response he got.  Said it was the best
    day he ever had!
    
    -Jack

    Patriarchy and patronizing are not really the same even if they do have
    the same root.

    Well you said Paternalism and I took that to mean Patriarchy.  Sorry.
    
    -Jack

    Some have said "Those people ought to get a job.  There's plenty of
    unskilled work available out there for them to do. Let'em work for a 
    living, like me".
    
    Some have said "They're not trustworthy.  They may not really need the
    handout, or, will spend it on something I would prefer they didn't buy.  
    Maybe I'm being taken advantage of, that's what I assume, so I don't give
    them anything"
    
    And some have said "By giving them money, you're just encouraging more
    begging.  So just walk away".
    
    All just rationalizations if you ask me.  I know all about it, I do it
    all the time.
    
    Me? What do I do?  Sometimes I drop a few coins in the can, sometimes I
    walk away. I sometimes judge the person on all that one can glean from a
    2 second scan of their physical appearence.  If they look young and
    strong, I feel less generous than if they're older, sick or handicapped.
    Might as well just flip a coin.
    
    I never really know what to do. Once I just sat down next to this 
    begger in Harvard Sqr and talked with him for a while.  He was drunk
    and you could smell it on his breath.  He was unemployed and homeless. 
    I think he drank just to escape his life.  I encouraged him not to lose 
    hope and to try to get work and a place to live.  But I really couldn't
    relate to what he was going through.  He was kind enough not to laugh
    at my comments.  I should have said nothing at all.  I think I gave him 
    a few bucks and left. Not my problem, right?  (wrong)
    
    This is the Christian notes conference, right?  What does the heart of
    the New Testement have to say about a situation like this?  I think it
    says you're supposed to give these people the shirt off your back.  It's 
    all just material baggage anyway.  But, I'm not that good.  I'm no Saint 
    Francis, so if I'm feeling generous, I drop a few coins in a can and then 
    feel bad.  It's like leaving a 1 cent tip at a resteraunt.  I feel bad,
    but not as bad as I'd feel if I gave them everything I had.  ANd I
    don;t have the courage to do that.
    
    When I was in Peru, I remember being told not to give money to the
    beggers.  So when this little barefooted, 5 year old girl with big
    brown eyes was asking me for money, I just turned away.  This 185
    pound, well fed, healthy, well-to-do American just turned his back on a 
    five year old girl who needed help. I'm not very proud of that.  I wish
    I could return to that time/place and change things.  The memory of those 
    eyes will haunt me till the day I die, maybe longer.
    
    Sigh!
    
                    

    I don't disagree with you.  What I was having dialog over was that for
    some reason, I was getting the impression that dropping a three dollar
    gift certificate into the bucket for breakfast somehow was not as
    acceptable as throwing in three dollars.  
    
    -Jack

re .41, a quality note there, joe.

>    	Well I'll be the first to admit that I mistrust the begger.
>    	There is no way that I can know the sincerity of the person,
>    	and my first instinct is to expect that they are not sincere.

i find that on a one to one basis it is a lot easier to assess the
sincerety of a person rather than, as an individual, to assess the 
sincerity of some charitable organisation.

i also give to both, to persons directly and to organisations, though 
my bias is definitely on the former.



andreas.

    .46
    
    Refreshing entry.
    
    Thank you.
    
    Richard
    

not to mention 1132.13!

that was funny.


andreas.

The following excerpt is from an article entitled "A Faithful Response
to Homelessness," by Steve Handen, a Roman Catholic ex-priest who has
been involved with the homeless and hungry in the Pikes Peak region for
a number of years:

	"Some say 'What can I do?'  The answer is not simple because the
problem is not simple.  The very word homelessness suggests that it is a
single problem with a single solution.  Not true.  People are without
homes for many reasons: mental illness, lack of employment, chemical
dependency, lack of documents, lack of affordable housing, sickness or
disability, divorce or widowhood, and so forth.  A diverse population
need diverse solutions.
	Rabbi Charles Kroloff tells a conscience-pricking story in his
book _Religious_Response_to_Homelessness_:
	'According to Jewish tradition, Elijah the prophet, an advocate
of the poor, was himself homeless.  Before he died, he announced he would
return once every generation disguised as a poor oppressed person, knocking
at the doors of Jewish homes.  How Elijah was treated would determine
whether humanity is ready to enter the Messianic age.'"

ZZ    Why is it that the above is given so much less attention, so much less
ZZ    emphasis than the below?
    
    Because the world today is following a demonic doctrine that our good
    works will get us into heaven.  Therefore, the emphasis is placed on
    John 14:6 far greater.  Luke 6:30 is a commandment to produce the fruit
    of faith, but it cannot replace John 14:6 as a mode of gaining eternal
    life.  
    
    When the question is asked, "How can I get saved"?  Then John 14:6 is
    appropriate for the context of that question and Luke 6:30 is not.
    
    -Jack

    So everyone is worried about "getting into heaven," whatever that means?
    
    Richard
    

    ZZ   So everyone is worried about "getting into heaven," whatever that
    ZZ   means?
    
    Didn't say that.  What I said was in light of one getting saved, the
    passage from Acts is more appropriate than the passage from Luke.  
    Secondly, getting saved implies a persons desire to remove ones self
    from sin.  "Getting to heaven" as you put in quotes and I'm not sure
    where you quoted it from, implies the need for somebody not to go to
    hell.  There is a difference.
    
    No, nobody is worried about getting saved and that's a big problem in
    our society today!
    
    -Jack

.55

>   "Getting to heaven" as you put in quotes and I'm not sure
>    where you quoted it from,...

Your .53 is where I got it from:
    
>    Because the world today is following a demonic doctrine that our good
>    works will get us into heaven.
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Thank you.  Since you mention it, to get to heaven by works would imply
    that one has to earn heaven.  Therefore, being saved from sin is
    inconsequential.
    
    -Jack

    I don't think Christians should do good works for the sake of some
    future reward.
    
    And I think Christians should take to heart the instruction found
    in Luke 6.30 as that in John 14.6.

    Richard
    

    
    Good works are always good. Certainly we should give equal weight to
    works that glorify God, as we do to faith for our own salvation.

    	Eric

   ZZ     Certainly we should give equal weight to
   ZZ     works that glorify God, as we do to faith for our own salvation.
    
    As a method of glorifying God, absolutely.  As a measurement to obtain
    eternal life, no.  We have been measured on the scales and found
    deficient.
    
    -Jack

    I know of no one who does good in order to purchase a ticket to eternal
    life.
    
    I don't know where the rumor started.  It's my impression that when Paul
    spoke of works he was talking about doing the Law.
    
    Richard
    

    See new topic 1138.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

I haven't seen the woman I spoke of in the basenote for at least a week
now.  Maybe she found the pickin's easier somewhere else.  Maybe she found
a place to live for awhile and a reliable income.  Maybe she's vacationing
in the Bahamas.  Maybe she's dead.  Maybe not.

Richard

you'll meet her again. 

there are so many like her.



:-(

andreas.

Proverbs 31:9  Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause
of the poor and needy.

Proverbs 29:7  The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: [but]
the wicked regardeth not to know [it].

Proverbs 30:14  [There is] a generation, whose teeth [are as] swords,
and their jaw teeth [as] knives, to devour the poor from off
the earth, and the needy from [among] men.


The largest local shelter is a dismal, gray warehouse of human beings.

Some "bums" won't stay there out of fear of having what little they
have stolen.  I met one man who had to have half his feet amputated due
to the frostbite he suffered rather than risking the night at the shelter.
"His choice," I guess you could say.  "Too bad," I guess you could say.

Richard

    Practical application.  How can the local church, which we know has far
    greater competence in these matters than government, organize to keep
    this sort of thing from happening but also minister to these people so
    that those who are down will be attracted to the messiah instead of the 
    executive branch?  
    
    I think one of the problems we have is that people are so interested in
    saving the world, they are too overwhelmed to act locally.  Did you
    know that if each church in this country adopted one family, poverty
    would be stamped out in America?  Heard it on Paul Harvey.
    
    -Jack

re Note 1131.67 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

>     Practical application.  How can the local church, which we know has far
>     greater competence in these matters than government, organize to keep
>     this sort of thing from happening but also minister to these people so
>     that those who are down will be attracted to the messiah instead of the 
>     executive branch?  
  
        Do we "know this", since the very question you ask
        illustrates that the churches have no current "competence" in
        this area?

        Bob

    Let's just say privatization usually reaps better results than
    government regulated.  I believe the church has been a sleeping giant.
    
    -Jack

    > I believe the church has been a sleeping giant.
    
    Put to sleep by a paternalistic government, no doubt.
    
    Not that this is in any way an excuse for falling asleep at the wheel.
    
                               
    -steve

    > I believe the church has been a sleeping giant.
    
Such a giant, if one exists, should not have to be jerked awake.

Richard

    Well, I agree.  The Church has become lukewarm for sure.
    
    -Jack

Amos 8:4-6

	Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make
the poor of the land to fail, Saying, When will the new moon be gone,
that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat,
making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances
by deceit?  That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a
pair of shoes; [yea], and sell the refuse of the wheat?

Psalm 82:3  Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the
afflicted and needy.
82:4  Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand
of the wicked.

Psalm 34:19  [How much less to him] that accepteth not the persons
of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they
all [are] the work of his hands.

Psalm 140:12  I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the
afflicted, [and] the right of the poor.

Deuteronomy 15:7  If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren
within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God
giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine
hand from thy poor brother:
15:8  But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt
surely lend him sufficient for his need, [in that] which he
wanteth.
15:9  Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked
heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and
thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him
nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin
unto thee.

Deuteronomy 15:11  For the poor shall never cease out of the land:
therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand
wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy
land.

Deuteronomy 24:14  Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant [that is] poor
and needy, [whether he be] of thy brethren, or of thy strangers
that [are] in thy land within thy gates:
24:15  At his day thou shalt give [him] his hire, neither
shall the sun go down upon it; for he [is] poor, and setteth
his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and
it be sin unto thee.

   In the agricultural days of the O.T. another provisions was made for
   the poor --- a landowners were not to completely harvest their fields,
   but were to allow the poor to come in after the harvesters and glean
   what was left. This is given as a commandment, and an example shown in
   the Ruth narrative. How that could be practically applied to today's
   large cities & suburbs I'm not really sure. 

   Leslie

re Note 1131.76 by CPCOD::JOHNSON:

>    what was left. This is given as a commandment, and an example shown in
>    the Ruth narrative. How that could be practically applied to today's
>    large cities & suburbs I'm not really sure. 
  
        I thought that real charity had to be voluntary, and not
        commanded?

        Bob

re Note 1131.76 by CPCOD::JOHNSON:

>    How that could be practically applied to today's
>    large cities & suburbs I'm not really sure. 
  
Might the dumpster be seen as the modern urban equivalent?




In case you can't tell, the suggestion is offered tongue-in-cheek.

Richard

><<< Note 1131.77 by LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (DTN 297-5780, MRO2-3/E8)" >>>

>re Note 1131.76 by CPCOD::JOHNSON:

>>    what was left. This is given as a commandment, and an example shown in
>>    the Ruth narrative. How that could be practically applied to today's
>>    large cities & suburbs I'm not really sure. 
  
>        I thought that real charity had to be voluntary, and not
>        commanded?

>        Bob

Bob,

My view of a commandment is that which God requires of human beings. Amongst
many others, a few notable examples are:

     Love the Lord, your God with all your mind, heart, and strength.

     Love your neighbor as yourself.

     What does God require of you?  Only this: to seek justice, love mercy, and
     walk humbly with your God.


I may not have those quotes exactly right, but hopefully, you get the gist of
what I am trying to say. Can love be commanded any more than charity? And yet
that is what God commands us to do, to be generous, to treat others hospitably
with compassion and kindness, to be fair, to provide for the dis-advantaged. 
There are tons of similar examples in James (Yaacov), Colossians, Deuteronomy,
Leviticus, and the gospels.

Leslie

Richard,

What I thought about was retailers making excess merchandise available to
the Salvation Army and shelters in the city, produce markets such as the 
one by Faneuil Hall in Boston leaving their fast over-ripening, left-over
produce out when they leave in the evening for those in need to take, 
restaurants donating food to the shelters and so on. The thing is our ways to 
get our extra goods to the people who need them is a bit harder these days.
We donate to food pantries, but it still seems so far removed from those in
need, and yet I would be afraid for my safety to move through the getto 
giving stuff away on my own, and further more, the agricultural way gave some
dignity to the impoverished because they had to work to gather the gleanings,
it wasn't just dumped on their doorstep. I know you were tongue in cheek, but
garbage bins are so unhealthy and demeaning. Its truely sad.

Leslie