Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

The doctrine of the Triunity has been discussed, defended, and derided throughout
the Christian era.  Some say it is an absurdity, a mere human dogma, irreverent,
illogical, and contrary to reason.  Others, though awestruck by the mystery of
it, find here a key to the revelation of God to man.

Paradox
-------
That the doctrine presents an obstacle to human reasoning is self-evident.  For
example, the Scriptures make it quite clear that there is only one God
(Deuteronomy 4:35, 6:4, 1 Kings 8:60, 2 Kings 19:15, Isaiah 44:6, Zechariah
14:9, John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:4, 8:6, Galatians 3:20, James 2:19).  But it is
equally clear that there are three persons given the same divine attributes,
such as eternal existence, sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence,
unchangeableness, righteousness, and holiness.  As God, each can say "I," and in
addressing the other two, "Thou."

1. Each is called God:  Father - Romans 1:7.  Son - Matthew 1:23; Romans 9:5;
   Hebrews 1:8.  Spirit - Acts 5:3-4; Ephesians 2:22.
2. Each is called Lord:  Father - Matthew 11:25.  Son - Acts 2:36; Romans 10:9.
   Spirit - 2 Corinthians 3:17.
3. Each is called Creator: Father - Isaiah 42:5, 45:18; 1 Corinthians 8:6.
   Son - John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2; 1 Corinthians 8:6.  Spirit -
   Genesis 1:1-2; Job 26:13,33-34.
4. Each is called Comforter:  Father - Isaiah 51:3,12; 2 Corinthians 1:3-4; 7:6;
   2 Thessalonians 2:16-17.  Son - John 14:18; Philippians 2:1; 2 Thessalonians
   2:16-17.  Spirit - John 14:16-17,26; Acts 9:31.

So we are faced with two apparently contradictory truths of Scripture: there is
one God, but there are three persons who are clearly shown to be God.  Human
reasoning replies that the two are irreconcilable - if three persons are walking
down the street, they are clearly three and never one.  They may be one in
purpose, but they can never be one in substance or essence.

It may come as a surprise to some to discover that the word "Triunity" (literally
tri-unity) is not found anywhere in Scripture.  However, the doctrine certainly
is in the very warp and woof of Holy Writ.  We use the word for the sake of the
doctrine which it conveniently represents.  (The words "omniscient" and
"omnipresent" are not found in the Bible either, but no Bible student hesitates
to use them as perfectly descriptive of clearly revealed attributes of God.)

Obviously, we are handling a divine mystery.  He is God, and all we can learn or
know of the mode of His existence we must learn from the revelation of Himself
given us in the Bible.  We may argue "a priori" that certain attributes must
exist in God's nature.  But how He exists - whether as absolutely one person or
in a Triunity of persons in one essence - is a matter about which we can
necessarily know nothing, except as God Himself instructs us in our ignorance.
We are but His creatures, and while "fearfully and wonderfully made," still are
limited in knowledge and understanding before the Eternal One.

Definition of Terms
-------------------
At this point, let us suggest a definition of the doctrine of the Triunity: there
is one true God; but in the unity of the Deity there are three persons: Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit; coeternal and coequal, the same in substance but
distinguishable in subsistence (not tritheism - three gods).  God is one, but in
essence three, as to persons.

We use the word "persons" simply for lack of anything more adequate in human
language to express this divine concept.  Obviously, the Bible does not refer to
three persons in the Godhead within out human concept of the term, so we must
sweep from our minds any strictly human analogy.  However, each possesses
intelligence, emotion, and will.  In that sense, they are distinct "persons."

In using the expressions, the first person of the Triunity (Father), the second
person of the Triunity (Son), and the third person of the Triunity (Holy Spirit),
it is definitely not to imply priority or superiority, which the Scripture does
not warrant, for each is very God; but in studying this triunity, the tenor of
Scripture revelation would indicate the following rationale:

The Father is essentially the source (in the sense of sender) of the divine
nature, God (John 1:18; 3:34; 8:16; 12:44-45).

The Son is essentially the manifestation of the divine nature, God (Matthew
1:23; John 1:14,18; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Philippians 2:5-9; Colossians 2:9; 1
Timothy 3:16).

The Spirit is essentially the energy of the divine nature, God (Genesis 1:1-2;
Romans 8:10-11; 15:19; 1 Corinthians 2:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:5).

How Should We Approach the Study of this Doctrine?
--------------------------------------------------
God can truly be known through the revelation He is pleased to make Himself
through His Word.  The proud, self-sufficient person will never know Him.  Our
approach must be in humility, recognizing the utter inability of the finite mind
to comprehend the infinite.  Many centuries ago Zophar counseled Job on this
subject in Job 11:7-9.

We must be ready to accept what information He chooses to give us and not try to
put God in a laboratory for analysis nor seek to reduce the infinite to a
formula.  We cannot bring God down to our level and try to know Him by human
analogies.  We are His creatures and He is the Creator.  While the search to
know God, or thirst for Him, is one of the God-given instincts in the human
breast, we quickly arrive at human limitations.  For example, we are limited by
the factors of time and space, but God is not, for He created them.

A second principle is that these truths are revealed by the Holy Spirit to those
who are spiritually alive (1 Corinthians 2:6-16).  The natural man,
unregenerate, has his understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of
God, through the ignorance that is in him, because of the blindness of his heart
(Ephesians 4:18), but upon receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior he is born
again, now to be spiritually alive (John 1:12-13), even to the remarkable extent
of partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).  At this point he becomes
teachable by the Holy Spirit who dwells in him (John 14:17; 16:13-15; 1 John
2:20) and can grow in the knowledge of the glory of God (2 Corinthians 3:18;
4:6; 2 Peter 3:18).  The prayer and goal of the Christian, then, is to be
"increasing in knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

As we contemplate the greatness of the eternal, almighty God; infinite in
holiness, wisdom, power, and love, we can see ourselves only as very small
before Him, and bow low in worship.  At the same time we praise Him for the
revelation He has given us of Himself in His Word and humbly welcome the light
He gives concerning His nature and mode of existence.  In this frame of mind, we
can explore through the Bible and learn what God would teach us regarding the
doctrine of the Triunity, latent in the Old Testament, but quite explicitly
propounded in the New.  To study through the Bible is to discover it.

The Triune Nature of God
------------------------
Both the OT and NT proclaim the triune nature of God - Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit.  They are co-equal, co-existent, and co-eternal, three Persons of the
same Substance (John 1:1-3, 14:26).  God is a personality who can speak and who
possesses a mind and will (Genesis 1:1,26, Jeremiah 29:11, Ezekiel 18:30).
God's character is eternal (I Timothy 1:17), omnipotent (Revelation 19:6),
omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-12), omniscient (Romans 11:33), perfect (Deuteronomy
32:4), and holy (I Peter 1:16).  More supportive Scriptures can be found in I
Corinthians 8:6, Isaiah 43:10, Exodus 3:14, I Timothy 2:5, Psalm 90:2.

1. The Father is recognized as God (I Peter 1:2) and is all the fullness of the
   Godhead invisible (John 1:18).
2. The Son is recognized as God (Hebrews 1:8) and is all the fullness of the
   Godhead manifested in the flesh (John 1:14, Colossians 2:9).
3. The Holy Spirit is recognized as God (Acts 5:3-4) and is all the fullness of
   the Godhead acting upon man, convicting him of sin (John 16:7-11) and guiding
   the believer into all truth (John 16:12-15).
4. The doctrine of the Triunity is not explicit in the OT, but is rather implied,
   "And God said, Let *US* make man..." (Genesis 1:26).
5. The doctrine of the Triunity is revealed in the NT.  In Matthew 3:16-17 we
   have Christ being baptized in water, the Father speaking from heaven, and the
   Holy Spirit descending as a dove.  We are to baptize in the "name (not
   names) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"
   (Matthew 28:19).
6. Even creation implies the doctrine of the Triunity.  In creation, we have
   space, matter and time in one creation.  In space, we have length, breadth,
   and height in one space.  In matter, we have energy, motion, and phenomena in
   one substance.  In time, we have past, present, and future in one time.  In
   man, we have body, soul, and spirit in one man (I Thessalonians 5:23).
7. In the Holy Triunity, we have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God.

The Deity of Christ
-------------------
The Apostle's Creed states: "Conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin
Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, died and was buried; He descended into
Hell; the third day He arose from the dead; He ascended into Heaven and sitteth
on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge
the quick and the dead."  Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Triunity, the
eternally Begotten Son of God who became flesh and is now our "great high
priest, that is passed in the heavens...[who] was in all points tempted like as
we are, yet without sin" Hebrews 4:14-15.  More supportive Scriptures can be
found in John 1:1-3, John 1:14, I John 4:3, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:9.

1. He is called God by the Apostle John (John 1:1).
2. He is called God by the Apostle Thomas (John 20:28).
3. He is called God by God the Father (Hebrews 1:8).
4. He claimed to be God in that He was with the Father before creation
   (John 17:5).
5. He claimed to be God in that He was before Abraham.  "Abraham rejoiced to see
   my day..." (John 8:51-59).
6. He received worship, and only God is to be worshiped (Matthew 14:33).
   Angels are refused worship (Revelation 22:8-9).  Man is refused worship
   (Acts 10:25-26).
7. He forgives sin (Mark 2:5-11).  Only God can forgive sin.
8. He is creator and maker of all things (Colossians 1:16).
9. He is sustainer of all things (Hebrews 1:3).  Only God can control the
   universe.
10. He claimed to have "all power in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18).  Only
    God has all power.
11. He walked upon the blue waters of Galilee.  The winds and waves obeyed His
    command.  He healed the sick and raised the dead.  He gave sight to the
    blind and hearing to the deaf.  He cast out demons and made the lame to
    walk.  He turned water into wine, and fed 5,000 with the lunch of a lad.

The Humanity of Jesus Christ
----------------------------
The humanity of Jesus Christ is seen in His human parentage (Matthew 2:11).

1. He developed as a normal human being (Luke 2:52).
2. He was subject to all the sinless infirmities of the human nature:
   - He hungered (Matthew 4:2)
   - He was thirsty (John 19:28)
   - He was weary (John 4:6)
   - He wept (John 11:35)
   - He was tempted (Hebrews 4:15)

Jesus is man, and yet He is more than man.  He is not God and man, but the
God-man.  He is God in human flesh.  His 2 natures are bound together in such a
way that the 2 become 1, having a single consciousness and will.  

The Triunity in the Old Testament
--------------------------------
The doctrine of the Triunity is not quickly apparent in the Old Testament, but it
is present and it can be discovered fairly easily by the average Bible student.
In the early revelation which God makes of His person, the emphasis is clearly
on His uniqueness and oneness, as a strong rebuke and antidote to the polytheism
of the pagan nations surrounding Israel.  In Romans 1:21-23 we are told how this
multiplication of gods came about.  So the Old Testament emphasizes the unity of
the Deity, with only sporadic references to the activity of each person of the
Triunity (for example, the Son: Joshua 5:14; Proverbs 30:4; Daniel 3:25; the
Spirit: Genesis 1:2; Numbers 24:2; Judges 6:16,34; Nehemiah 9:20).  However, the
Old Testament is by no means silent on the direct revelation of the Triunity, as
we note from the following:

1. The name of God, Elohim.  This is the name by which God introduces Himself in
the very first verse of the Bible, and it is a plural name.  The Hebrew language
has a singular, a dual, and a plural number (three or more).  Elohim is neither
singular nor dual, but plural, and is used here with a singular verb, thus
Scripture commences with a powerful proof of Triunity in unity: "In the beginning
God (Elohim - plural) created (bara - singular) the heaven and the earth."  This
is by no means an unimportant detail.  If we accept the authority and verbal
inspiration of the Word of God, we shall not miss the importance of this
testimony.  It should not surprise us to find the revelation of God beginning in
this way - a plural noun with a singular verb.  When God hung the earth upon
nothing (Job 26:7) and created man to inhabit it, He was not then lacking in
fellowship, but only wanting more.  From all eternity God had perfect fellowship
with Himself, but this fellowship was not unipersonal but between the Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit (John 17:5,24).  Eternally, God is love (1 John 4:8,16),
but for love to exist there must be a lover, a beloved, and a spirit of love
between them.  All this and more is enclosed within the significance of this
plural name, Elohim, with which the Bible begins the revelation of God.

If Jehovah and Elohim were always transferred to our version when they occur in
the original, instead of being translated, it would be a help.  Thus the
favorite text of Unitarians (Deuteronomy 6:4), in reality declares the doctrine
of the Triunity just about as clearly and powerfully as it can be stated - the
existence of a plurality of persons (Elohim) in one God (Jehovah).  From the
same text we discover another important detail.  The Hebrew word translated
"one" ("is one Lord") is echad and means a compound unity.  An example of this
is found in Genesis 11:6.  There is another Hebrew word for "one," meaning "one
only" or "one alone" - yachid - but that is not the word used in Deuteronomy
6:4.

2.  Other evidence of Hebrew grammar.  The combination and interchange of plural
and singular are found in other texts, and have direct bearing on this doctrine.
In Genesis 1:26-27, it reads, "And God said (singular), let Us (plural) make man
in Our (plural) image...so God created (singular) man in His (singular) own
image."  Here is ample proof that we are not dealing with the plural of majesty,
like the editorial "we," or a council between God and the angels.  Others texts
like this are found in Genesis 3:22; 11:6-7, and Isaiah 6:8.

3. In the mention of the three persons of the Triunity.  In the vision of the
glory of God which Isaiah describes in chapter 6 of his book, he speaks of Him
as "the King, [Jehovah] of hosts."  The apostle John states that the glory seen
by Isaiah was that of Christ (John 12:41), while the apostle Paul adds that the
message given to the prophet was that of the Holy Spirit (Acts 28:25).

In Isaiah 63:7-14 three distinct persons are spoken of as saving Israel out of
Egypt: "The Lord...He was their Savior" (verses 7-8); "and the angel of His
presence saved them" (verse 9); "That led them through the deep...The Spirit of
the Lord caused him to rest" (verses 13-14).

Twice in Isaiah the Son, as servant of Jehovah, associates the Spirit with
Himself and the Father (Isaiah 48:16; 61:1-2; Luke 4:17-20).

In Haggai 2:4-9 the Triunity can be seen.  There is the Lord, or Lord of hosts
(in all verses) who speaks of sending the Son (verse 7).  He also speaks of
the work of the Spirit (verse 5).

In Job 26:13 creation's beautiful work is ascribed to the Holy Spirit, but in
Proverbs 30:4 this craftsmanship is ascribed to the Father and Son.

4. More than one person receives titles and attributes of Deity.  That the Son
appeared to men occasionally in the Old Testament times, prior to His
incarnation, as the "angel of the Lord" (angel means messenger), in known as a
"theophany" and is a logical conclusion, based on Genesis 16 and Exodus 3:

     And the angel of the Lord found her (Genesis 16:7)
     ...and the angel of the Lord said unto her (Genesis 16:9)
     ...and the angel of the Lord said unto her (Genesis 16:11)
     ...and she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou
     God seest me ((Genesis 16:13)

     And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the
     midst of a bush...And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God
     called unto him out of the midst of the bush (Exodus 3:2,4).

In both cases, the angel of the Lord is subsequently called God; evidently the
angel of Yahweh is equal to Yahweh and is the manifestation of His presence.

The second Psalm unites the Father and Son in coming wrath, judgment, and
universal reign, a prerogative of God alone (Psalm 45:6; Daniel 2:44; Obadiah
21; Hebrews 1:8-9).  Life and blessing are promised to those who honor the Son,
the Lord's anointed.

It is evident that some Old Testament saints at least were aware of the
existence of the eternal Son, as seen in John 8:56, Hebrews 11:26, and
1 Corinthians 10:4.

We cannot leave the Old Testament without also referring to that wonderful,
clear prophecy of Christ the Son in Isaiah 9:6-7, where it speaks of Him as "the
mighty God" (El Gibbor).  Everywhere else in the Old Testament where this name
is used, it unquestionably refers to Yahweh Himself; therefore it cannot
possibly be translated "mighty hero" in Isaiah 9:6, as some would like to do.

The Triunity in the New Testament
--------------------------------
In the New Testament we find strong emphasis on the Triunity, with only sporadic
references to one God.  It is in the cumulative evidence of text after text that
the NT underscores the doctrine of Triunity, as we observe that three persons of
the Godhead unite in many mighty works.  Consider the following:

1. In the incarnation - "And the angel answered and said unto her, *THE HOLY
GHOST* shall come upon thee, and the power of *THE HIGHEST* shall overshadow
thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called
*THE SON OF GOD*." (Luke 1:35).  "For that which is conceived in her is of *THE
HOLY GHOST*.  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name
*JESUS*: For He shall save His people from their sins...Behold, a virgin, shall
be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name
Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, *GOD WITH US*." (Matthew 1:20-21,23).  The
Triune God is involved in this mighty act, so full of mystery, "God...manifest
in the flesh." (1 Timothy 3:16).

2. In the baptism of the Lord - See Luke 3:21-22.  The phrase "My beloved Son"
is cross referenced to Isaiah 42:1 and literally means "This is My Son, the
Beloved."  As the Son submits to baptism, the Father speaks from heaven, and the
Spirit descends.

3. In the redemptive work of God - see Titus 3:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; Hebrews 9:14;
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; John 3:3-16; and Luke 15:3.  In John 3, one of the
passages most frequently used to preach the good news of salvation, we clearly
see the Triune God at work to redeem sinful man:  The *SPIRIT* regenerates
(verses 3-12); the *SON* redeems (verses 13-15); and the *FATHER* reveals His
love (verse 16).  This redemptive work of the Triune God is beautifully
portrayed in Luke 15.  Note that it is one parable (verse 3), not three, but
there are three distinct persons active in seeking the sinner.  In the first
case, it is a man who seeks one lost sheep and who, laying it on his shoulders
of strength, brings it home rejoicing - an apt picture of the Son of Man who
came to seek and to save that which was lost.  In the second aspect of the same
parable it is a woman who has lost one piece of silver and who lights a lamp,
sweeps diligently, and looks until she finds it, with again a scene of rejoicing
- a striking illustration of the Holy Spirit's special ministry of illumination
and diligent searching out of the lost sinner, rejoicing when the silver of
redemption is found.  And what of God the Father?  Hardly any comment is
necessary on the familiar third aspect of the parable where the father's heart
of love and longing over the wayward son is fully told out, together with his
abundant grace in forgiveness and restoration to fellowship.

4.  On the first Lord's day - The Father (Acts 2:24, Acts 13:30, Romans 6:4);
The Son (John 2:19,21; John 10:17-18); The Spirit (Romans 8:11, 1 Peter 3:18).

5.  On the day of Pentecost - The Father (John 14:16,26); The Son (John 15:26,
16:7).  The sending of the Holy Spirit, the other Comforter, at Pentecost, is
alike ascribed to the Father and the Son.

6.  In the Church's commission - Matthew 28:19.  Note that it is "name" not
"names."  This is plain intimation of the unity of the Triunity.

7.  In the gifts to, and ministry in, the church - 1 Corinthians 12:4-6.  "Same
Spirit... Same Lord... Same God..."

8.  In apostolic salutations - 1 Thessalonians 1:3-5.  The phrase "...Him
which is, and which was, and which is to come..." in Revelation 1:4-6 is
cross-referenced to Exodus 3:14 (the "I AM").  "The seven Spirits" relates to
Isaiah 11:2 and the sevenfold, full manifestation of the Spirit.

9.  In doxologies - Jude 20-21; 2 Corinthians 13:14.

10. In the prayer life of the Christian - Ephesians 2:18, 3:14-19.

11. In the worship and service of the Christian - Ephesians 5:18-20;
Philippians 3:3; and 1 Thessalonians 5:18-19.

12. In the believer's sanctification - The Father (Jude 1; 1 Thessalonians 4:3,
5:23); The Son (1 Corinthians 1:2,30; Hebrews 10:10, 13:12); The Spirit (1 Peter
1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 6:11).  It is interesting to note that
each person of the Godhead sanctifies through the Word: the Father (John 17:17),
the Son (Ephesians 5:26), and the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18).

13. In the adoption of the Christian - The Father (Ephesians 1:3-5); The Son
(Galatians 4:4-5); The Spirit (Romans 8:15-16).

14. In the Christian's victory - The Father (Romans 8:31); The Son (Romans
8:34); The Spirit (Romans 8:26).

15. In the matter of blasphemy - Matthew 12:31-32.  Note how the three persons
of the Godhead are distinguished.  "All manner of sin and blasphemy" is
understood to be directed against God, since all sin is essentially against Him.
This can be forgiven.  A word against the Son of Man can also be forgiven (verse
32), but the case of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is distinct from the
other two.

The overwhelming evidence of these verses should be sufficient to prove the
doctrine of the Triunity, if we are ready to accept the light and authority of
the Scriptures alone.  It is both interesting and important to observe that
there is no strict order of mention of the three persons of the Godhead in the
foregoing verses, which both emphasizes the deity of each and underscores the
fact that there is no jealousy there.  The three persons of the Godhead are
clearly distinguishable, coequal and coeternal, the Triune God.  Such an
intertwining of attributes and functions speaks convincingly of oneness.
However, the foregoing list of texts is representative, not exhaustive.  Further
reading and study should bring out more, especially in the Epistles.  For
example, here is a list from Ephesians:

_Chapter_1_
Contains a three-verse hymn of praise to the Triune God for His redemptive work.
Each verse ends in a note of praise and worship.

a) The Father's work of love (1:3-6): Appointing (1:4), Adopting (1:5),
Accepting (1:6), "To the praise of the glory of His grace" (1:6).

b) The Son's work of grace (1:7-12): Emancipating (1:7), Enlightening (1:9),
Enriching (1:11), "To the praise of His glory" (1:12).

c) The Spirit's work of testimony (1:13-14): Sealing (1:13), Securing (1:14),
Strengthening (1:16), "Unto the praise of His glory" (1:14).

_Chapter_2_
For through *Him* [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit unto the *Father*
(2:18-22).  In *Whom* [the Lord] ye also are builded together for an habitation
of *God* through the *Spirit* (2:22).

_Chapter_3_
The dispensation of the grace of *God*... (the mystery of *Christ*)...now
revealed... by the *Spirit* (3:2-5).  Strengthened with might by His *Spirit*
in the inner man; That *Christ* may dwell in your hearts by faith...that ye
might be filled with all the fullness of *God* (3:16-19).

_Chapter_4_
One *Spirit*...One *Lord*...One *God* and Father (4:4-6).  Grieve not the Holy
*Spirit *of God...forgiving one another, even as *God* for *Christ*'s sake hath
forgiven you (4:30-32).

_Chapter_5_
Be filled with the *Spirit*...making melody in your heart to the *Lord*;  Giving
thanks always for all things unto *God* and the Father in the name of our Lord
Jesus *Christ* (5:18-20).

_Chapter_6_
Be strong in the *Lord*, and in the power of His might.  Put on the whole armour
of *God*...And take...the sword of the *Spirit* (6:10-17).

The Alpha and Omega
-------------------
The Bible tells us in several places that God is the first and last, the Alpha
and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and that He is the only God.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I
am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6  
    
Who is God's Redeemer?  Let's look further.
    
"Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy
God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou
shouldest go." Isaiah 48:17  
    
God is the Redeemer!  The one who is first and last!  There is no other!
    
"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the
beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and
his Spirit, hath sent me." Isaiah 48:16  
    
God *AND* His Spirit!  The 3rd Person of the Triunity!  Several more passages
have God reminding us yet again that He's the first and last.

"Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I
the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." Isaiah 41:4  
    
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is,
and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8  

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand
upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:  I am he that
liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the
keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:17-18

"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first
and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" Revelation 2:8  

When did God die?  At the cross.  He died for you and I because He loved us
and knew it was the only way we could be with Him.  We must believe and accept
that Jesus Christ is God.

Illustrations of the Triunity
----------------------------
The abundant Scripture evidence should be sufficient for the truth to be plain
in this matter.  However, God in His infinite wisdom has also left the imprint
of His person in the universe He created; nature reflects something of the
essence of the Creator and bears the stamp of the Triune God (Romans 1:20).  We
are aware that doctrine is not based on illustrations or analogy, even on
thousands of them, but they are helpful to an understanding of the doctrine.
The many types, symbols, and figures of the Old Testament, as well as the
parables of the New, illustrate doctrine rather than teach it.  In God's
creation it is not surprising to discover that not all that is one in number is
strictly singular in nature:

1. A man is one being, yet he is spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23;
   Hebrews 4:12); one, yet three; three, yet one.  Each one expresses the whole,
   yet the whole is manifested in the three.
2. The universe is time, space, and matter.
3. Time manifests itself in past, present, and future.
4. Space has length, breadth, and height (or depth).
5. Matter is energy, motion, and phenomena.
6. The sun in light, heat, and energy.

In each of the above, each part is inseparable from the whole and represents the
whole, and yet the whole is also manifested by each part.  For example, space
cannot exist without length, breadth, and height.  There are not three things
which space does, but which space is, and each is an expression of space.  When
we consider the center of our solar system, we see the light from the sun and
say, "That is the sun."  We feel its heat and still say, "That is the sun."  We
see plants growing by the sun's life-giving energy, and we also say, "That is
the sun."  Each ray of light consists of a luminiferous element, a calorific
element, and an actinic element.  Each performs a distinct purpose, yet all,
unitedly, constitute the one ray of light.  Each is a distinct manifestation of
the same sun, yet there are not three rays, but one ("God is light," 1 John
1:5).  We confess that it is difficult, if not impossible, to adequately
illustrate the doctrine of the Triunity.  The above are cited merely to prod our
thinking.

The Importance of the Doctrine of the Triunity
---------------------------------------------
What are the practical, personal implications of this doctrine?  It affects at
least three vital aspects of our relationship with God:

1. Probably most important of all, it relates directly to the atonement for sin.
If Jesus was anything less than God, then He could not atone for all the sins of
all mankind (that He became true man to do this is equally valid).  That Jesus
Christ was and is God is amply affirmed in the Bible:

   - by His enemies (Matthew 26:63-66, John 5:17-18, 8:58-59, 10:32-33).
   - by His friends (Matthew 16:13-17, John 1:36,49, 20:28).  Jesus received
     worship (Matthew 9:18, 14:33, Luke 24:52, John 9:38), which apostles (Acts
     10:25-26, 14:18) and angels (Revelation 19:10, 22:8-9) refused absolutely
     to do, as pertaining to God alone.
   - by His own witness (John 8:23,58, 10:30, 14:9).
   - by the Father's witness (Hebrews 1:8).

An apprehension of the doctrine of the Triunity enhances our appreciation of the
value of the atonement and gives us assurance of the eternal efficacy of
redemption.

2. It enriches our worship.  This doctrine of the Triunity partially unveils to
our puny minds the mystery of the infinite, eternal God who came to save us (2
Corinthians 5:19).  The Scripture verses setting forth this mystery pull back
the curtains for our wondering eyes to behold Him, and while we cannot fully
know Him, we fall at His feet from this glimpse of glory and, like Isaiah, hear
these words: "Holy, holy, holy [a reference to the Triunity?], is the Lord of
hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory," or, like Paul, exclaim, "O the
depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable
are His judgments, and His ways past find out!  For who hath known the mind of
the Lord?  or who hath been His counselor?  Or who hat first given to Him, and
it shall be recompensed unto him again?  For of Him, and through Him, and to
Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

3. It also relates vitally to the eternal life God has given us, upon personal
faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  The apostle Peter informs us that we
have been made partakes of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), and it may very well
be that the study and light that the doctrine of the Triunity brings to us should
be the key to help us understand the true riches of our life in Christ, and
Christ in us (Colossians 1:27).  The Gospel of John might be called, "The Gospel
of the Triunity," for we have seen much of this doctrine there, but in chapter 17
we find the best Biblical definition of oneness, or unity in plurality, or fusion
of persons, and the analogy is applied to our Christian experience.

    "That they all may be *one*; as Thou, *Father*, art in Me, and I in Thee,
     that they also may be one in Us...that they may be one, even as We are
     one: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one...
     That the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

What God has purposed to do with His redeemed is so wonderful the mind is
staggered by the thought.  He not only pardons and justifies us, not only makes
us members of His family, but comes Himself to abide in our hearts (John 14:23,
1 John 4:12-16), making His life ours and ours His!  (John 15:4-5)  And this
oneness is the pathway to spiritual maturity as Christ lives in us ("that they
may be made perfect in one").  This oneness is a vertical relationship (1 Samuel
25:29).  

Conclusion
----------
We believe that the foregoing pages show clearly that Scripture teaches that the
doctrine of the Triunity is:

    1.  Biblical.
    2.  Indispensable to an increase in the knowledge of God (Colossians 1:10)
        - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    3.  Important to a proper appreciation and appropriation of God's so great
        salvation, freely offered to all men in the gospel.

    Some more tidbits if you still doubt after .1-.6...
    
Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    The Greek for image says, "exact representation."  The same applies to
    Hebrews 1:3.
    
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the lord the king of Israel, and his redeemer the lord of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no god.
    
Revelation 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first
and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

    When did God die? ;-)
    
Psalms 110:1
THE LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
enemies thy footstool.

    YHWH is talking to Adonai, which is David's Lord, but we all know
    David's Lord is God.  btw - this Messianic Pslam is quoted in Hebrews
    1 and 7.
    
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall
be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, the
mighty god, the everlasting father, the prince of peace.

    The Son is called Mighty God, Everlasting Father!
    
Isaiah 42:8
I am the lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,
neither my praise to graven images.

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I
had with thee before the world was.

    God says He doesn't share His glory with anyone, but Christ has had it
    since before the world was created.
    
Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in
his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the
ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is this SON'S name, if thou canst
tell?
    
    God tells us in the OT that He has a Son, and that God has ascended and
    descended to/from heaven.
    
    Here's an interesting exercise: carefully diagram the speakers and
    subjects in Psalm 2 (a Messianic Psalm) and you will discover that it 
    is a *trialogue* among the 3 persons of the Triunity.
    
    In Genesis 1, the name for God - "Elohim," is a plural noun despite the
    fact that there is one God (Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7).  Plurality in 
    oneness is Biblical.  Look at Genesis 2:24 where Adam and Eve become one 
    flesh.  In Ecclesiastes 12:1 and Isaiah 54:5 there's more plurality in
    God.
    
    Review the vision Isaiah had of the holy place in chapter 6.  Note the
    seraphim declare the Holiness of God 3 times.  This is confirmed in
    other throne room visions in the Bible as well (Revelation 4:8).  Note
    again the plurality in Isaiah 6:8 "who will go for *Us*?"
    
    Who is the Lord of Hosts?  Most apply this title to the Father, yet
    John 12:41 says it's Christ, Paul says it's the Holy Spirit (Acts
    28:25), thus all 3 are included.
    
    Look at Jacob's blessing in Genesis 48:15-16.  The "God before whom my
    fathers did walk," "The God who fed me," and "the Angel who redeemed
    me," are all mentioned as objects of divine worship and the source of
    blessing: God the Father, God the source of illumination and comfort,
    and the "Goel" (the Redeemer).
    
    The Aaronic blessing in Numbers 6:24-27 is just as provocative.  Break
    down the phrases:
    
    1. The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: 
        (the benevolent "love of God," the Father of mercies and fountain
        of all good).
    
    2. The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
        (the redeeming and reconciling "grace of our Lord Jesus Christ")
    
    3. The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
        (the purity, consolation, and joy received by the communion of the
         Holy Spirit.)
    
    Now compare this with the New Testament benediction in 2 Corinthians
    13:14:
    
    "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the
    communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all.  Amen."
    
    Mike

ZZ    THE LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make
ZZ    thine enemies thy footstool.
    
    I understand Jesus created a mob when he quoted this...referencing
    himself.
    
    The pharisees knew exactly what he was saying.
    
    -Jack

		Of God, and of the Holy Trinity

[6.011]
1. There is but one only living ahd true God, who is infinite in being
and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or
passions, immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty,
most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute, working all things
according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will,
for his won glory, most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering,
abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and
sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him; and withal most
just and terrible in his judgments; hating all sin; and who will by no
means clear the guilty.

[6.012]
2. God hath all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself;
and is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need
of any creatures which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them,
but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; he is
the alone foundation of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom,
are all things; and hath most sovereign dominion over them, to do by
them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth.  In his
sight all things are open and manifest; his knowledge is infinite,
infallible, and independent upon the creature; so as nothing is to him
contingent or uncertain.  He is most holy in all his counsels, in all
his works, and in all his commands.  To him is due from angels and
men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or
obedience he is pleased to require of them.

[6.013]
3. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one
substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God
the Holy Ghost.  The Father is of none, neither begotten nor
proceeding; the Son is eternall begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost
eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

                      ARTICLE I:    THE TRIUNE GOD

   We believe in one eternally existent, infinite God, Sovereign of
   the Universe; that he only is God, creative and administrative,
   holy in nature, attributes, and purpose; that He, as God, is Triune 
   in essential being, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


                      ARTICLE II: JESUS CHRIST

   We believe in Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Triune God-
   head; that he was eternally one with the Father; that he became
   incarnate by the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary, so
   that two whole and perfect natures, that is to say the Godhead
   and manhood, are thus united in one person very God and very man,
   the God-man.

   We believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and that He truly
   arose from the dead and took again his body, together with all
   things appertaining to the perfection of man's nature, wherewith
   He ascended into heaven and is there engaged in intercession for
   us.

                    ARTICLE III: THE HOLY SPIRIT

   We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Triune God-
   head, that he is ever present and efficiently active in and with
   the Church of Christ, convincing the world of sin, regenerating
   those who repent and believe, sanctifying believers, and guid-
   ing into all truth as it is in Jesus.

Athanasian Creed, 4th Century
-----------------------------
Quicunque Vult

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold
the Catholic Faith.

Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt
he shall perish everlastingly.

And the Catholic Faith is this:  That we worship one God in Trinity,
and Trinity in Unity,

Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another
of the Holy Ghost.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one,
the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost
incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.

And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one
uncreated, and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost
Almighty.

And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.

And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.

And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every
Person by himself to be both God and Lord,

So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, There be three Gods,
or three Lords.

The Father is made of none; neither created nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created,
nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one
Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.

And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less
than another;

But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity
in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe
rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Son of God, is God and Man;

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of
the substance of his Mother, born in the world;

Perfect God, and perfect Man:  of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father,
as touching his Manhood.

Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;

One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the
Manhood into God;

One altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, So God and Man is one Christ;

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third
day from the dead.

He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty; from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give
account for their own works.

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that
have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he
cannot be saved.

2. The one True God
The one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent "I AM,"
the Creator of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind.  He has further
revealed Himself as embodying the principles of relationship and association as
Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Deut. 6:4; Isaiah 43:10,11; Matt. 28:19;
Luke 3:22).

   a.) The Adorable Godhead (terms defined) - The terms "Trinity" and "persons"
   as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in
   harmony with the Scripture whereby we may convey to others our immediate
   understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as
   distinguished from "gods many and lords many."  We therefore may speak with
   propriety of the Lord our God, who is one Lord, as a trinity or as one
   Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural (examples:
   Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14; John 14:16,17).

   b.) Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead - Christ taught a
   distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms
   of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that this distinction
   and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible,
   because unexplained (Luke 1:35; 1 Cor. 1:24; Matt. 11:25-27; 28:19;
   2 Cor. 13:14; I John 1:3,4).

   c.) Unity of the one Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit - Accordingly,
   therefore, there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not
   the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit and not either the Father
   or the Son.  Wherefore, the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten,
   and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son.
   Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of
   unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one (John 1:18;
   15:26; 17:11,21; Zech. 14:9).

   d.) Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead - The Father, the Son and the
   Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation;
   nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation.  The
   Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship.  The
   Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son as to fellowship.
   The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father as to
   authority.  The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding as to
   nature, relationship, cooperation and authority.  Hence, neither Person in
   the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the
   others (John 5:17-30,32,37; John 8:17,18).

   e.) The Title, Lord Jesus Christ - The appellation, "Lord Jesus Christ," is
   a proper name.  It is never applied in the New Testament either to the
   Father or to the Holy Spirit.  It therefore belongs exclusively to the Son
   of God (Romans 1:1-3,7; 2 John 3).

   f.) The Lord Jesus Christ, God with Us - The Lord Jesus Christ, as to His
   divine and eternal nature, is the proper and only Begotten of the Father,
   but as to His human, He is the proper Son of Man.  He is, therefore,
   acknowledged to be both God and man; who, because He is God and man, is
   "Immanuel," God with us (Matt. 1:23; 1 John 4:2,10,14; Rev. 1:13,17).

   g.) The Title, Son of God - Since the name "Immanuel" embraces both God and
   man in the one Person, our Lord Jesus Christ, it follows that the title Son
   of God describes His proper deity, and the title Son of Man, His proper
   humanity.  Therefore, the title Son of God belongs to the order of eternity,
   and the title Son of Man to the order of time (Matt. 1:21-23; 2 John 3;
   1 John 3:8; Heb. 7:3; 1:1-13).

   h.) Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ - Wherefore, it is a
   transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived
   the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation or because
   of His relation to the economy or redemption.  Therefore, to deny that the
   Father is a real and eternal Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal
   Son, is a denial of the distinction and relationship in the Being of God; a
   denial of the Father and the Son; and a displacement of the truth that
   Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (2 John 9; John 1:1,2,14,18,29,49;
   1 John 2:22,23; 4:1-5; Heb. 12:2).

   i.) Exaltation of Jesus Christ as Lord - The Son of God, our Lord Jesus
   Christ, having by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of
   the Majesty on high, angels and principalities and powers having been made
   subject unto Him.  And having been made both Lord and Christ, He sent the
   Holy Spirit that we, in the name of Jesus, might bow out knees and confess
   that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father until the end,
   when the Son shall become subject to the Father that God may be all in all
   (Heb. 1:3; 1 Peter 3:22; Acts 2:32-36; Romans 14:11; 1 Cor 15:24-28).

   j.) Equal Honor to the Father and to the Son - Wherefore, since the Father
   has delivered all judgment unto the Son, it is not only the express duty of
   all in heaven and on earth to bow the knee, but it is an unspeakable joy in
   the Holy Spirit to ascribe unto the Son all the attributes of Deity, and to
   give Him all the honor and the glory contained in all the names and titles
   of the Godhead, except those which express relationship (see paragraphs b,
   c, and d), and thus honor the Son even as we honor the Father (John 5:22,
   23; 1 Peter 1:8; Rev. 5:6-14; Phil. 2:8, 9; Rev. 7:9,10; 4:8-11).

3. The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ
The Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God.  The Scriptures declare:
   a.) His virgin birth (Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:31, 35).
   b.) His sinless life (Hebrews 7:26; 1 Peter 2:22).
   c.) His miracles (Acts 2:22; 10:38).
   d.) His substitutionary work on the cross (1 Cor. 15:3; 2 Cor. 5:21).
   e.) His bodily resurrection from the dead (Matt. 28:6; Luke 24:39;
       1 Cor. 15:4).
   f.) His exaltations to the right hand of God (Acts 1:9, 11; 2:33;
       Phil. 2:9-11; Hebrews 1-3).

are there branches of christianity which do not subscribe 
to the dogma of holy trinity? if so, which are they?



andreas.

    
    Andreas,
    
    Jehovah's Witnesses who call themselves Christian, though not a branch
    of Christendom, do not believe that the Bible teaches the holy trinity.
    
    Phil.

    Andreas, no that's impossible.  True followers of Christ cannot follow
    Him without accepting the claims that He made and all that He stood
    for.  You can't consider yourself a Christian while rejecting the most
    important aspect of His nature.
    
    Mike

mike, are you suggesting that one has to be a trinitarian in order
to be a christian?

looking at it from the outside, as i do, anyone who believes in
god and jesus and the holy spirit _has_got_to_be_ a christian. 
the question of whether god/jesus/holy spirit are one or three 
separate entities is just a nit (from where i stand).




andreas.

ps. fwiw, when i was still a god-believing christian i never found a
    satisfactory explanation for the concept of holy trinity. the idea 
    of god/jesus/holy spirit being one is a human construct, as i see it.

    Andreas,
    
    	Many trinitarians claim you can't legitimately call yourself a
    Christian unless you're a trinitarian.  Others, like myself, don't.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

>mike, are you suggesting that one has to be a trinitarian in order
>to be a christian?
    
    To be a Christian, wouldn't you have to embrace all that Christ stood
    for and support His words?  What kind of Christian would you be if you
    had to pick and choose from Christ's own words to suit your own needs? 
    Christ Himself warned us about people like this.

>ps. fwiw, when i was still a god-believing christian i never found a
>    satisfactory explanation for the concept of holy trinity. the idea 
>    of god/jesus/holy spirit being one is a human construct, as i see it.
    
    Have you had a chance to read the first 10 replies in here?  I think
    they're very thorough.  I recommend it before further discussions take
    place.  It drastically changes the whole perceptions of the Atonement
    as well as our worship to God.
    
    A good analogy I sometimes use is the egg.  How many parts are in an
    egg?  3.  Are they more than 1 egg?  No.  God has left his footprint on
    us as well as the universe.
    
    Man has a body, soul, and spirit, yet is still 1 man.  All representative 
    of the image of the Godhead.  Each one expresses the whole, yet the
    whole is manifested in 3.
    
    Universe: time, space, matter.
    Time:     past, present, future.
    Space:    length, breadth, height (or depth).
    Matter:   energy, motion, phenomena.
    Sun:      light, heat, energy.
    
    ...and so on.  This is the fingerprint of God's triune nature in the
    universe.
    
    Mike

| <<< Note 1128.18 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>


| To be a Christian, wouldn't you have to embrace all that Christ stood for and 
| support His words?  

	His words, yes, His Word, for me, doesn't exist.

| What kind of Christian would you be if you had to pick and choose from 
| Christ's own words to suit your own needs?

	I believe that is being done now by some who believe the Bible is His
Word.




Glen

.18> Have you had a chance to read the first 10 replies in here?  I think
.18> they're very thorough.  I recommend it before further discussions take
.18> place.  It drastically changes the whole perceptions of the Atonement
.18> as well as our worship to God.

i read the text even when it was first entered and i've remained unconvinced.

you write that it is

>        clear that there are three persons given the same divine attributes,
>such as eternal existence, sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence,
>unchangeableness, righteousness, and holiness.  As God, each can say "I," and
>in addressing the other two, "Thou."

yet, that 

> It may come as a surprise to some to discover that the word "Triunity" 
> (literally tri-unity) is not found anywhere in Scripture.  

and that 

> The words "omniscient" and "omnipresent" are not found in the Bible either

all this suggests is that the attributes of god which you enumerate are 
reached by interpretation of biblical texts and that there might be other,
just as valid interpretations.

you supply many examples which present "the three persons of the Godhead"
as clearly distinguishable. what's wrong with taking god/jesus/holy spirit
as three separate entitites?

whilst god, in all revelations to humanity has apparently never revealed 
anything specifically about his triune nature, you claim nevertheless to 
know about this triune nature. and since there is no clear scriptural support
for god's triune nature, you hide behind the claim of god's nature being
a great mystery, outside the grasp of the "puny" human mind. 

i agree that there is much that the human mind cannot grasp. regarding
the triune nature of god i can't help thinking that the only mystery here is 
how you come to think of three persons in one godhead.

so how does one grasp the concept of holy trinity?

your answer: "The natural man, unregenerate, has his understanding darkened, 
being alienated from the life of God, through the ignorance that is in him, 
because of the blindness of his heart, but upon receiving Jesus Christ as 
Lord and Savior he is born again, now to be spiritually alive, even to the 
remarkable extent of partaking of the divine nature. At this point he becomes
teachable by the Holy Spirit who dwells in him."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

in other words: 'just believe it!'

that's your suggestion.


andreas.

Re: .18 Mike

>    To be a Christian, wouldn't you have to embrace all that Christ stood
>    for and support His words?  What kind of Christian would you be if you
>    had to pick and choose from Christ's own words to suit your own needs? 
>    Christ Himself warned us about people like this.

People like Thomas Jefferson, for example.  There is an interesting
article in this week's The New Republic about Jefferson's and Lincoln's
use of the Bible.  Jefferson published his own version of (portions of)
the Bible with passages that he didn't consider authentic - which included
all of the verses that equated Jesus with God.

				-- Bob

    .21  Thomas Jefferson was a classic unitarian.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

>   <<< Note 1128.20 by DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what U have" >>>
    
    Andreas, 

|> It may come as a surprise to some to discover that the word "Triunity" 
|> (literally tri-unity) is not found anywhere in Scripture.  
|
|and that 
    
    There are other known terms that aren't explicitly stated in the Bible
    as well but they can still be determined by inference.
    
|> The words "omniscient" and "omnipresent" are not found in the Bible either
    |
|all this suggests is that the attributes of god which you enumerate are 
|reached by interpretation of biblical texts and that there might be other,
|just as valid interpretations.
    
    Not exactly.  The verses that speak of His omniscience and omnipresence
    are pretty clear.

|you supply many examples which present "the three persons of the Godhead"
|as clearly distinguishable. what's wrong with taking god/jesus/holy spirit
|as three separate entitites?
    
    Because it violates the several scripture passages mentioned that
    explicitly tell of the oneness of God.  Remember, the context of the
    Bible is the *ENTIRE* book.

>i agree that there is much that the human mind cannot grasp. regarding
>the triune nature of god i can't help thinking that the only mystery here is 
>how you come to think of three persons in one godhead.
    
    Because that is what God's Word teaches.

|your answer: "The natural man, unregenerate, has his understanding darkened, 
|being alienated from the life of God, through the ignorance that is in him, 
|because of the blindness of his heart, but upon receiving Jesus Christ as 
|Lord and Savior he is born again, now to be spiritually alive, even to the 
|remarkable extent of partaking of the divine nature. At this point he becomes
|teachable by the Holy Spirit who dwells in him."
|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|
|in other words: 'just believe it!'

andreas, that's a prerequisite.  You need God's Spirit to discern His book. 
    It's foreign to the natural man.  
    
    Mike

>    There are other known terms that aren't explicitly stated in the Bible
>    as well but they can still be determined by inference.

Not only can but are. :-}

What it often seems to boil down to is which determined inferences will be
accepted?

Richard

re Note 1128.15 by OUTSRC::HEISER:

>     Andreas, no that's impossible.  True followers of Christ cannot follow
>     Him without accepting the claims that He made and all that He stood
>     for.  You can't consider yourself a Christian while rejecting the most
>     important aspect of His nature.
  
        Mike,

        Do you realize how silly that sounds?

        Those who are non-trinitarians don't reject Christ's
        statements about his nature, they reject the notion that
        Christ described God using Trinitarian doctrine!  They reject
        Mike Heiser's reading of the Bible (and, it must be admitted,
        the most prevalent reading) -- but rejecting "the common
        reading of the Bible" is hardly on a par with rejecting
        something you really believe Jesus said!

        Bob

re Note 1128.14 by RDGENG::YERKESS:

>     Jehovah's Witnesses who call themselves Christian, though not a branch
>     of Christendom, do not believe that the Bible teaches the holy trinity.
  
        Phil,

        When you say "call themselves Christian, though not a branch
        of Christendom", are you simply saying that JWs reject the
        notion that any of the others are Christian?

        Bob

re .26
    
    Bob,
    
    My main reason for saying "call themselves Christian, though not a
    branch of Christendom" was solely to make sure that Andreas understood
    that Jehovah's Witnesses are not just another sect or denomination but
    totally separate. However, it might be misleading not to expand by 
    answering your question. So here goes...
    
    Christians will be known by their fruit (not doctrine) and Jehovah's 
    Witnesses believe they are producing the right kind of fruit such as love 
    and peace (Galations 5:22).
    
    My point of stating that they are not a branch of Christendom, is that
    we view ourselves as one body totally separate from Christendom. We
    have no sects or denominations for we are all united under one leader
    whom we believe is Jesus Christ. Our good fruit helps us to see that
    we are listening to his voice, as it were, and following his leading.
    
    There is reason for making it clear that we are no part of Christendom.
    For we do not want to associated with those who profess to be Christian 
    and yet display rotten fruitage. For example, at times of war the
    clergy have done much of the war mongering for the nations. Rather than
    giving spiritual counsel that it's wrong to take the life of a fellow
    human especially a spiritual brother, they have have encouraged warfare
    between people of the same faith such as prostestant against protestant
    and catholic against catholic and are thereby bloodguilty. There are
    many other reasons also for this stance. Another being that through the 
    years many of the clergy have been responsible for stirring up persecution 
    against Jehovah's Witnesses. So Jehovah's Witnesses being no part of
    Christendom is mutual on both sides.
    
    A dictionary definition of "Christendom" is "the community of people or
    nations professing Christianity" often attributed to all the different 
    churches  or denominations.
    
    To reiterate, Christians are known by their fruit. Jehovah's
    Witneseses do not believe that Christendom is displaying good 
    fruit as a whole. But at the end of the day, it's not important
    what we think but what Jesus thinks for all who profess to
    be Christian are accountable.
    
    So the answer to your question would be "yes" because we don't believe
    that others are doing God's will or producing good fruit as a whole 
    (Matthew 7:19-21).
    
    Phil.                               
    
    

phil, as a counter-position to the prevailing view on trinity,
how do you view the relationship between god, jesus and the holy
spirit?

also, are JW's the only non-trinitarian christian faith community?




andreas.

>also, are JW's the only non-trinitarian christian faith community?

Andreas,

I think it's more that JWs are the most easily identified as a group.  A
handful of Unitarian Universalists (around 10% is the rumor I've heard)
claim to be Christian.  I'm fairly certain most of these would not describe
themselves as trinitarian.  Quakers are non-creedal, basically leaving the
issue up to the believer.

Most mainline churches are trinitarian, but even there you'll find an
occasional unitarian in the mix.  A few, I imagine, have even vacillated
between trinitarianism and unitarianism.

Shalom,
Richard

    UPC (United Pentecostal Church) is unitarian (Jesus only).  They were
    formed out of the 1914 Azusa St. revival that also gave birth to the
    Assemblies of God and other contemporary Pentecostal churches.
    
    Mike

    .30  I did not know that.
    
    And I'm not sure what you mean by a "Jesus only" doctrine.
    
    Richard
    

    Richard, their version of unitarianism is worship to Jesus only.  They
    believe He's everything roled up into one and worship Him as such.  For
    instance, they perform water baptism in the name of Jesus only, instead
    of in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (like most
    Protestants do).
    
    Mike

richard, mike, is there a hard definition of 'unitarian' or are there 
several versions, as mike's example suggests?

does a unitarian christian usually see god/jesus/holy spirit as three 
separate and distinct entities or does unitarian mean that only one of 
these three entities is believed to exist?



andreas.

    Andreas .33,
    
    As I understand it, a unitarian believes Jesus is/was the Messiah (the
    Christ, Savior, and Lord), is/was the only begotten Son of God, but that
    Jesus is/was not God.
    
    Richard
    

re .33

The situation is clouded by the fact that an organized group called
the Unitarians merged some years ago with another group called the
Universalists to form a new group called the Unitarian/Universalists.

Thus, some people who are called "Unitarians" (for short) are actually
not Unitarians at all, but Universalists, and can basically address
their prayers "To Whom it May Concern", if they pray at all.

/john

Actually, "Universalism" is the theological doctrine that all souls will
eventually find salvation in the grace of God.

It is true that the many organized institutional Unitarian and Universalist
churches did unite forming what is now known as the Unitarian Universalists.

But I fear I'm straying from the topic.

Shalom,
Richard

      There's another possibility which is a belief that the Father is
      God and He begat the Son who being essence of divine essence is
      also God (but not one entity).
    
      The possibility is also that the Holy Spirit is an expression used
      to denote the going forth of the word of God.
    
      Would that be called binarian?
    
      I know people of this view.
    
    						Tony

re .28

Andreas,

I can only give a quick reply for now, being in holiday mode.

God is one, not three : throughout the Bible you will find
that God is spoken of as one person, "I am Jehovah. That is
my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory." Isaiah
42:8 NWT.

The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) Deuteronomy 6:4 reads
"Listen, Israel: Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh".
In the grammar of this verse, the word "one" has no plural
modifiers to suggest that it means anything but one individual.

Jesus, himself called God "the only true God" (John 17:3) and on
no occassion did he refer to God as a deity of plural persons.

Only God is spoken of as "almighty" in the scriptures. Never, is
Jesus or the holy spirit referred to as such.

Jesus is always viewed as inferior to God: the Trinity doctrine
teaches that all 3 persons of the godhead are coequal. Yet in the
Bible Jesus is always viewed as the lesser one and God as the
superior one. The Bible identifies Jesus as God's submissive
servant, John 5:19 KJV "Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise." In otherwords, he did nothing
of his own initative but did the will of the one who sent him.
Jesus is shown as having limited knowledge, compare Mark 13:32.
Hebrews 5:8 tells us that Jesus learnt obedience from the things
he suffered. Is it feasable that Almighty God could learn anything?.
The first book in Revelation verse 1 mentions, that this revelation
has been given to Jesus Christ by God. If Jesus was part of the 
godhead then surely he would know this Revelation already.

Philipians 2:9 mentions that God exalted Jesus to a superior position,
now if already part of the godhead of what significance would it
be to given him a superior position. Is Jesus now superior to God?.

As we know Jesus gave a wonderful example in praying to his God. But 
to whom did Jesus pray to? , himself or his God who was separate
(compare Luke 22:42).

The Holy Spirit = God's active force: The Bible's us of holy spirit
indicates that it is a controlled force that Jehovah uses to accomplish
a variety of purposes. It could be likened to electricity, or similar to
the tool I'm using at the moment to write this note on a computer in
the States though I'm located in the UK. Jehovah's residence is in the
heavens but he uses his active force to accomplish things outside that
realm. For example Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form and
void; and darkness was upon the the face of the deep. And the Spirit
of God moved upon the face of the waters." It was Gid's active force
moving and shaping the terrain of the earth. God's spirit is used to
enlighten people, as the Psalmist prayed: "Teach me to do your will,
for you are my God. Your spirit is good; may it lead me in the land
of uprightness." Psalms 143:10 NWT

Bible prophecy was recorded when men of God were "borne along by 
holy spirit." 2 Peter 1:20,21 NWT in this way the Bible is spoken
of has being inspired of God.

Not a person: The holy spirit is often spoken of in personal terms,
but never identified as a distinct person. This is something we do
in every day speech, like a boat is known as a she. 

Rather than the holy spirit being a person that lives in someone, the
Bible indicates that God's active force can supply a person with the 
"power beyond what is normal" 2 Corinthians 4:7 NWT. 


Sorry, that this is a quick reply and perhaps I can discuss further
when I get back from holiday. But to recap what Jehovah's Witnesses
believe:

Jehovah alone is God Almighty (Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalms 83:18)

Jesus is God's Son (not God the Son) and was created by his Father
(Collossians 1:15). He has a unique relationship with his Father
in that he was the first created by God, and then after that all
creation was created *through* Jesus, rather like a master worker
with God as architect (Proverbs 8). Jesus is always shown to be
God's servant and God always as superior, therefore they can't be
coequal.

The holy spirit is God's active force, a tool he uses to accomplish
his purposes.

Phil.
 

    Re: .38
    
    Phil,
    
>God is one, not three : throughout the Bible you will find
>that God is spoken of as one person, "I am Jehovah. That is
>my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory." Isaiah
>42:8 NWT.
    
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I
had with thee before the world was.

>The Catholic New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) Deuteronomy 6:4 reads
>"Listen, Israel: Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh".
>In the grammar of this verse, the word "one" has no plural
>modifiers to suggest that it means anything but one individual.
    
    I'm glad you brought this up.  The Hebrew word here for "One" is
    "Echad" which means a composite oneness with implied plurality.  The
    Hebrew word for the #1 is "Ychad."  Big difference here!  Check out
    these other verses where the word "Echad" is used:
    
Genesis 26:10
And Abimelech said, what is this thou hast done unto us? *ONE* of the people
might lightly have lien with thy wife, and thou shouldest have brought
guiltiness upon us.

Numbers 13:23
And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with
*ONE* cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff; and they
brought of the pomegranates, and of the figs.
    
Judges 20:1
Then all the children of Israel went out, and the congregation was gathered
together as *ONE* man, from Dan even to Beersheba, with the land of Gilead, unto
the Lord in Mizpeh.  [see also verses 8 and 11 in this chapter]

    Now for some examples for where "Ychad" is used; notice the lack of
    plurality:
    
Genesis 22:2
And he said, take now thy son, thine *ONLY* son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get
thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one
of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Judges 11:34
And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out
to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his *ONLY* child; beside
her he had neither son nor daughter.

>Only God is spoken of as "almighty" in the scriptures. Never, is
>Jesus or the holy spirit referred to as such.
    
Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy
Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Acts 5:4
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in
thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast
not lied unto men, but unto *GOD*.

Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me
life.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall
be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, the
mighty god, the everlasting father, the prince of peace.

>Jesus is always viewed as inferior to God: the Trinity doctrine
>teaches that all 3 persons of the godhead are coequal. Yet in the

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre
of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the lord the king of Israel, and his redeemer the lord of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no god.

Revelation 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first
and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

>be to given him a superior position. Is Jesus now superior to God?.
    
    how can you be superior to yourself?  Sounds like you misinterpreted
    the verse.
    
Re: Genesis 1
    
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let *US* make man in *OUR* image, after *OUR* likeness: and let them
have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over
the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth
upon the earth.

    Who is "Us" and "Our"?  Why is the Hebrew word for God here, "Elohim,"
    plural?  Before you answer "angels," please keep in mind that we were
    created a "...little lower than the angels."
    
>Not a person: The holy spirit is often spoken of in personal terms,
>but never identified as a distinct person. This is something we do
>in every day speech, like a boat is known as a she. 
    
Psalms 139:7
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy spirit: therefore he was turned to be
their enemy, and he fought against them.

>Jesus is God's Son (not God the Son) and was created by his Father
>(Collossians 1:15). He has a unique relationship with his Father
>in that he was the first created by God, and then after that all
    
Colossians 1:13-18
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into
the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn
from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

    Sounds to me like Paul is saying, under the direction of the Holy
    Spirit, that Jesus Christ is the Creator.
    
    Mike

      Hi Mike,
    
        Good texts, but in one point I think you stretched a little.
    
        We were also (obviously) created a little lower than God and
        yet this must harmonize with our being created in His image 
        in some way.
    
        One important point to me is the fact that Jesus did condescend
        to be made man and thus any references to His dependence on the
        Father during His earthly life cannot be support for His not being
        God.  We all know that He had to walk by faith.
    
        God foresaw the need for the plan of redemption.  Thus, He begat
        the Son who (thus) being essence of divine essence, is God.
    
        It was God Himself who hung for us.  Important point in so far
        as having a deeper comprehension of agape is concerned.
    
                  				God Bless,
    
    						Tony

    Here are some evidences for the Triune Nature of God from the Book of
    Mormon, which is a doctrine that the Church of Latter Day Saints reject 
    despite what it says.  The LDS church supports polytheism.

Bible - God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24, Luke 24:39).

    "And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?  And
    he said, Yea.  And Ammon said: This is God."  - Alma 18:26-28a.

Bible - God the Father has always been God (Psalms 90:2, Hosea 11:9, Numbers
        23:19, Romans 1:22-23, Deuteronomy 4:35).

    "For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever,
    and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of
    changing?  And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who
    doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye
    imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.  But
    behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of
    Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that
    same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in
    them are...And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased
    to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being?  And behold,
    I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he
    ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles."  - Mormon 9:9-11,19. 
    Similar passages found in Moroni 8:18, II Nephi 27:23.

    "Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?  And He answered, No." -
    Alma 11:28-29.

Bible - God already possesses eternal wisdom, power, and knowledge, and so never
        changes (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, Jeremiah 23:24, Isaiah 40:28).

    See Mormon 9:9-11,19, Moroni 8:18, and II Nephi 27:23 above.

Bible - There is only one God, but 3 distinct persons in the Godhead
        (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 48:12-13,16, Matthew 3:16-17).

    "For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we
    are not, for there could have been no creation.  But there is a God,
    and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time." -
    II Nephi 11:7

    "And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is
    the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also
    that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God." - II Nephi 26:12

    "And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is
    none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in
    the kingdom of God.  And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ,
    and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of
    the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.  Amen." - II Nephi 31:21.

    "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God,
    and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the
    Father and the Son- The Father, because he was conceived by the power
    of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and
    Son- And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and
    earth.  And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son
    to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to
    the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and
    cast out, and disowned by his people." - Mosiah 15:2-5

    "And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily
    I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are
    one; and I am in the Father and the Father in me, and the Father and I
    are one." - III Nephi 11:27

    "And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will
    bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and
    the Holy Ghost are one." - III Nephi 11:36

The Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the doctrine of God's triune nature as
portrayed in the Bible.  Let's examine what their Bible, the New World
Translation (NWT) says about God's nature.

Who is Jesus?
-------------
When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, "Who are men
saying the Son of man is?"  Then He asked His disciples, "YOU, though, who do
You say I am?" - Matthew 16:13,15 (NWT)

Let's start at the very beginning
---------------------------------
1. There is a God.
   Genesis 1:1 (NWT) "In the beginning God..."

2. There is only 1 God.
   Isaiah 44:8b (NWT) "Does there exist a God besides me?  No..."
   (See also Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:6, 45:5).

3. He is identified as Jehovah.
   Isaiah 43:12b (NWT) "'So you are My witnesses,' is the utterance of
   Jehovah, 'and I am God.'"  Isaiah 43:3 (NWT) "For I am Jehovah your God..."

4. He is our father.
   Isaiah 64:8 (NWT) "And, now, O Jehovah, you are our father..."
   (See also Isaiah 63:16, Psalm 89:26).

5. There is only ONE father.
   Ephesians 4:6 (NWT) "One God and Father of all..."

6. God is eternal.
   Psalm 90:2 (NWT) "Before the mountains themselves were born... Even from
   time indefinite to time indefinite you are God."

7. He is identified as the "Mighty God."
   Isaiah 10:21 (NWT) "A mere remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the
     Mighty God."
   Jeremiah 32:18 (ASV) "...the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his
     name."

8. God is called the "first and the last."
   Isaiah 44:6 (NWT) "This is what Jehovah has said,...'I am the first and I am
   the last, and besides me there is no God.'"

9. God is the "Alpha and the Omega."
   Revelation 21:5-7 (NWT) "And the one seated on the throne said...I am the
   Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.  To anyone thirsting I will
   give from the fountain of water of life free.  Anyone conquering will
   inherit these things, and I shall be his God and He will be my son."
   (See also Revelation 1:8).

10. God is the "beginning and the end."
   See Scripture quoted above.

11. God is the Lord of lords.
   Deuteronomy 10:17 (NWT) "For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord
   of lords, the great, might..."

12. God is the creator.
   Isaiah 45:12 (NWT) "I myself have made the earth and have created even man
   upon it.  I--my own hands have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of
   them I have commanded."
   Isaiah 45:18 "For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the
   heavens..."

13. God is the ONLY Savior.
   Isaiah 43:11 (NWT) "I--I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior."

14. Jehovah is my shepherd.
   Psalm 23:1a (NWT)

15. Jehovah is the "Rock."
   Isaiah 44:8b (NWT) "...Does there exist a God besides me?  No, there is no
   Rock.  I have recognized none."
   (See also Deuteronomy 32:4).

What does the Scripture really say concerning Jesus?
----------------------------------------------------

When Jesus was talking to his disciples, especially in answer to Philip's
question, He said, "Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip you
have not come to know me?..." - John 14:9a (NWT)

1. Jesus is God.
   Titus 2:13 (NAS) "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory
   of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
   2 Peter 1:1 (NAS) "Simon Peter,...to those who have received a faith of the
   same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:"
   (See also John 1:1, 1 John 5:20).

2. Jesus is Jehovah.
   a. In Exodus 3:14, God refers to Himself as "I AM."  This is because "I AM"
      has the same root as Jehovah.  It is from the verb "to be."  In John
      8:51-59, Jesus says, "...before Abraham was born, I AM."  Note: Jesus
      quoted directly from the Septuagint, a translation from the Old
      Testament Hebrew (~300 B.C.) into Greek, the world's language in those
      days.  This version was in common use then.

      So in actuality, Jesus was really saying, "I AM Jehovah!"  Those Jews
      caught the message, for the next verse (59) says, "They took up stones
      therefore to cast at him..." (ASV).  See also John 8:24-28, John 18:5-6
      where Jesus says, "I AM."

   b. In John 10:30-33 we see that the Jews understood Jesus' message.  Verse
      33, "...for a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and
      because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (ASV).  See also
      John 5:18.

   c. Peter, in his great sermon on the day of Pentecost quotes Joel, Acts 2:16
      (ASV) "but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel."
      At this point Peter quoted Joel 2:28-32.

      Joel 2:32 (ASV) "And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on
      the name of Jehovah shall be delivered.

      Acts 2:21 (ASV) "And it shall be that whosoever shall call on the name of
      the Lord shall be saved."

   d. The New Testament writers quote Isaiah to show that John the Baptist was
      the "voice in the wilderness."  Matthew 3:3a (ASV) "For this is he that
      was spoken of through Isaiah the prophet..."  At this point Isaiah 40:3
      is quoted:

      Isaiah 40:3 (ASV) "The voice of one that crieth, Prepare ye in the
      wilderness the way of Jehovah; make level in the desert a highway for
      our God."

      Matthew 3:3b (ASV) "The voice of one crying in the wilderness.  Make ye
      ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight."

   e. Paul, in Philippians chapter 2, quotes Isaiah 45:23.

      Isaiah 45:23 (ASV) Jehovah speaking, "By myself have I sworn, the word is
      gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that
      unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

      Philippians 2:10-11 (ASV) "that in the name of Jesus every knee should
      bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
      and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
      glory of God the Father."

   f. Compare                             With
      Isaiah 43:15     "Holy One"         Mark 1:23, John 6:69, Acts 2:27
      Isaiah 6:1-5,10  "His" Glory        John 12:40-41
      Isaiah 44:6      "Redeemer"         Titus 2:14

3. Jehovah only to be worshiped.
   a. Jesus declares that Jehovah only is to be worshiped in Matthew 4:8 (NWT)
      "Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed
      him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him,
      'All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of
      worship to me.'"  Then in verse 10, Jesus said to him, "Go away, Satan!
      For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is
      to Him alone you must render sacred service.'"

      NOTICE Hebrews 1:5-6.  For example, to which one of the angels did he ever
      say, "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father?"  And again, "I
      myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son."  But
      when he again brings his first-born into the inhabited earth, He says,
      "And let all God's angels worship Him."

      Luke 4:8 In reply Jesus said to him, "It is written, 'It is Jehovah your
      God you must worship, and it is Him alone you must render sacred
      service.'"

      Revelation 19:10 At that I fell down before his feet to worship him.  But
      He tells me "Be careful!  Do not do that!  All I am is a fellow slave of
      you and your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus.  Worship
      God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying."

   b. Jehovah says in Exodus 20 that man is to have no other gods before Him.
      "...you must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I
      Jehovah your God..." (NWT)

   c. Yet Jesus was worshiped.
      1. Matthew 8:2 "There came to Him a leper and worshiped Him, saying, if
         thou wilt..."
      2. Matthew 9:18 "There came a ruler and worshiped Him, saying, my
         daughter..."
      3. Matthew 14:33 "And they that were in the boat worshiped Him, saying,
         'Of a truth thou art...'"
      4. Matthew 15:25 "But she came and worshiped Him saying, 'Lord help me'"
      5. Matthew 20:20 "Then came to Him the mother of the sons of Zebedee with
         her sons, worshiping Him, and asking..."
      6. Matthew 28:9 "And behold, Jesus met them, saying, 'All hail." And they
         came and took hold of His feet, and worshiped Him."
      7. Matthew 28:17 "And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him..."

   d. What was Paul and Barnabas' attitude when the people started saying, "The
      gods are come down to us in the likeness of men?"  Acts 14:11  "They
      rent their garments and sprang forth among the multitude crying out...We
      also are men of like passions with you..." Acts 14:14-15.

   e. What happened to Herod in Acts 12:21 when "Herod arrayed himself in royal
      apparel, and sat on the throne, and make an oration unto them.  And the
      people shouted, saying, 'The voice of a god, and not of a man.'
      Immediately an angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the
      glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."

   f. Thomas, finally, when he believed said, "My Lord and my God."  Did Jesus
      correct him?  No, he blessed him.

   g. Notice Revelation 19:10.  Was John to worship an angel?  NO!
      "...Worship God..."

   NOTE: John 1:1 says that the Word, Jesus, was god!  This is an accurate
   translation, and in strict harmony with the rules of Greek grammar.  See any
   competent Greek Grammar, for example: "A Manual Grammar of the Greek New
   Testament" by Dana and Mantey, p. 138-140, and "Essentials of New Testament
   Greek by Summers," p. 129-130.

   The title "Son of God" (although it can mean relationship) can mean, and in
   several cases does mean that "He, Jesus, was a manifestation of God in human
   form."  ("An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words" by W.E. Vine, p.
   48).

Some people say that God created Jesus, according to Revelation 3:14 and
Colossians 1:45.  The Greek contradicts this teaching clearly.  So do the
Scriptures.  See Isaiah 43:10.  The use of the word Lord can be applied to
Jehovah in the Old Testament.  See Isaiah 65:13, and is used in reference to to
BOTH God, and Jesus in the New Testament.  In 2 parallel passages, one writer
uses "Lord" and one uses "God," yet Ephesians 4:5 says there is ONE Lord.  (Mark
5:19 and Luke 8:39).

4. Jesus is identified as the "Father."
   Isaiah 9:6 (NWT) "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son
   given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder, and his
   name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince
   of Peace." (only one Father - Ephesians 4:6).

5. Jesus is eternal (everlasting).
   Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah, which are little to be among the
   thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be
   ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting." (ASV)

6. Jesus is identified as the "Mighty God."
   see Isaiah 9:6 above.

7. Jesus is the first and the last.  Jesus is the "Alpha and the Omega."
   Jesus is the "beginning and the end."

   Revelation 22:12-13 (NWT)  "Look!  I am coming quickly, [who is coming
   quickly? see verse 16,20] and the reward I give is with me, to render each
   one as his work is.  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last,
   the beginning and the end."

8. Jesus is the Lord of lords.
   Revelation 17:14 (NWT) "These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is
   Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them..."

9. Jesus is the creator.
   Colossians 1:16 (ASV) "for in Him [Jesus] were all things created, in the
   heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether
   thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been
   created through him, and unto him;"  (See also John 1:1-4 and Hebrews 1:1-3).

10. Jesus is the Savior.
   1 John 4:14 (NWT) "In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing
   witness that the Father has sent forth His Son as Savior of the world."

   Acts 4:12 (NWT) "Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there
   is not another name under heaven that has been given among me by which we
   must get saved."

11. Jesus is the Shepherd.
   John 10:11 (NWT) Jesus speaking, "I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd
   surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep."

   Hebrews 13:20 (NWT) "Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead
   the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant,
   our Lord Jesus."

12. Jesus is the Rock.
   1 Corinthians 10:4 (ASV) "and did all drink of the same spiritual drink; for
   they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ."
   (see also Romans 9:33, 1 Peter 2:6-8, Matthew 16:18).

    Mike:
    
    "...our God and Savior Jesus Christ."
    
    This is used by Paul quiet a bit.  Isn't it actually Lord and
    Savior...and is Lord a capital L or a small l?  I know the passage in
    Philippians 2 that says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess
    that Jesus is Lord....the world "Lord" is actually in the greek
    "Kurios", meaning master and not necessarily Lord (Adonai) God.
    
    -Jack

    Probably depends on the version.  Regardless, Isaiah and Paul state the
    exact same thing, except Isaiah attributes it to God and Paul does it
    to Christ.  That is the key point to consider when we know only God is
    to be worshiped.
    
    Mike

re .42

Mike,

Have you done this research of the NWT on your own?
Do you own a copy of the New World Translation?.

I have had a quick glimpse at your replies and I'm
not sure how or if to comment on them. But I would
like to correct one of your comments regarding the
NWT.

;2. There is only 1 God.
;   Isaiah 44:8b (NWT) "Does there exist a God besides me?  No..."
;   (See also Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:6, 45:5).

The Bible refers to many gods, Satan is called the "god
of this system of things" 2 Corinthians 4:4. Satan is
as real as Jehovah, therefore it is logical to assume
that there are many gods. If I remember rightly god
means "mighty or strong one". How do you understand the
verse you quoted, do you believe that only one god 
exists?. In otherwords what is Jehovah telling us about
himself?.

Phil.

>     -< The Bible shows that there are other gods, but one alone is Almi >-
    
    agreed.  It's His nature that we're discussing.

>Have you done this research of the NWT on your own?
    
    Some of it.  The Cult Awareness Ministry, which I help out with, at my 
    church put it together.
    
>Do you own a copy of the New World Translation?.

    No, but I would like one.  Others in the above ministry do have one
    though.  However, I do own a Book of Mormon and used it to do that
    book's view on God's nature.
    
>;2. There is only 1 God.
>;   Isaiah 44:8b (NWT) "Does there exist a God besides me?  No..."
>;   (See also Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:6, 45:5).
>
>The Bible refers to many gods, Satan is called the "god
>of this system of things" 2 Corinthians 4:4. Satan is
>as real as Jehovah, therefore it is logical to assume
>that there are many gods. If I remember rightly god
>means "mighty or strong one". How do you understand the
>verse you quoted, do you believe that only one god 
>exists?. In otherwords what is Jehovah telling us about
>himself?.

Phil, as a literalist, I feel case is important.  "God" is not the same as
    "god."  There is only 1 God - YHWH.  It's interesting to note too that
    all "gods" are created beings.  Lucifer was created and mankind has
    created several idols that they call "gods."  God *is* the Creator! 
    Can you see the difference?
    
    God's Word is true and there is only 1 "God."  No other before Him or
    after Him.  He is the first and last, the alpha and the omega, the
    beginning and the end.
    
    Mike

RE .48

Mike,

Thanks for replying. I always avoid this sort of literature
as normally it doesn't have anything constructive to say, no
insult intended. Therefore I'll refrain from commenting on it,
if persons are interested on how Jehovah's Witnesses view
God's nature then they have an opportunity to do so when they
are called on.

You say you would like a copy of the NWT, well it's good to have
many different translations of the Bible for they often can
enrich ones understanding of God's Word. Owning different versions
helps one to familiarise oneself with the Bible's that other people
read, hence when preaching the good news one can show them
God's promises in the pages of their own Bible, which a person
would be more readily accept. Jehovah's Witnesses will help
people obtain a copy of the NWT if they have a genuine interest, 
for there main reason in preaching is to direct peoples attention 
to the Bible. But I don't think they'll readily do so, if your 
intention is solely to put them down.

;Phil, as a literalist, I feel case is important.  "God" is not the same as
;    "god."  There is only 1 God - YHWH.  It's interesting to note too that
;    all "gods" are created beings.  Lucifer was created and mankind has
;    created several idols that they call "gods."  God *is* the Creator! 
;    Can you see the difference?
    
;    God's Word is true and there is only 1 "God."  No other before Him or
;    after Him.  He is the first and last, the alpha and the omega, the
;    beginning and the end.

Mike, I totally agree with what you have said. However, the English language 
can bring in confusion such as in Isaiah 9:6, were it is prophesied that
Jesus is to be called "Mighty God". Grammar, calls that this be capitilised
hence one could easily be mistaken that this is talking of God. This
problem doesn't occur with Satan, for though the Bible refers to him as a 
god it doesn't acknowledge him as such with a title or name. If it did,
then grammar would require that it's capitialised. If Jesus was the
Almighty then God's Word would refer to him as such, instead it comments
on him as being God's servant (compare Acts 4:23,27,30) and Jesus himself
prayed to His Father referring to him as "You, the Only True God" but
referred to himself different in the verse as the one sent Jesus Christ
(Christ meaning Anointed One, who annointed him? (John 17:3)).

Phil.
 

>Thanks for replying. I always avoid this sort of literature
>as normally it doesn't have anything constructive to say, no
>insult intended. Therefore I'll refrain from commenting on it,
>if persons are interested on how Jehovah's Witnesses view
>God's nature then they have an opportunity to do so when they
>are called on.
    
    I think we know how JW's view God's nature, thus the discrepancies in
    your bible with respect to the numerous common attributes that God and
    Christ have.

>Mike, I totally agree with what you have said. However, the English language 
>can bring in confusion such as in Isaiah 9:6, were it is prophesied that
>Jesus is to be called "Mighty God". Grammar, calls that this be capitilised
    
    Well the Hebrew for "Mighty God" in this verse is El Gibbor which 
    translates to "The God-Man."  The same name is in Isaiah 10:20-23 and
    Jeremiah 32:18, both of which are clearly attributed to God.  Your
    issue with case and grammar here is unfounded.  
    
    Regardless, this is only one of many common attributes associated with
    both God and Christ.
    
    Mike