Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

 ZZ      Do you believe divorce is unscriptural?
 ZZ      (future divorce brings disenrollment)
    
    Oh...so the sins of the fathers are going to be hoisted on the
    children.  That makes alot of sense.
    
    Our son will be in 1st grade this coming year.  I have the questionaire
    for enrollment right here and need to fill it out.  It kind of sobers
    one a little when you read it; however, it is for the most part
    reasonable.
    
    -Jack

    
    I'm incredulous.  I'm very familiar with homeschooling.  Why would one 
    "enroll" in homeschool?   If this is real, I'd avoid it.
    
    jeff
    

    I know of a Christian school in this area that has a homeschooling
    program where homeschoolers go once a week for activities and the like!
    
    -Jack

    	I'm with Jeff on this one.  Nobody can stop us from homeschooling
    	(except the state or the school system, but I'm not talking about
    	them and they aren't sponsoring this enrollment form.)
    
    	There are many homeschool organizations that provide the
    	curriculum, and some even do grading of tests and recording
    	of same, but none that I know of will turn down those who
    	want to use their services.
    
    	What is in the basenote involves more than just true homeschooling,
    	and it should be clearly understood by anyone reading it that it
    	is in no way representative of homeschooling.

If Joe is correct, maybe the title of this topic should be changed.

/john

re Note 1085.6 by COVERT::COVERT:

>                 -< Is this a narrow brush being used broadly? >-
> 
> If Joe is correct, maybe the title of this topic should be changed.
  
        Well, only if the topic of this discussion is the application
        in .0 and NOT "home schooling".

        (There is NEVER any guarantee that the first note of a new
        topic fairly and/or completely represents the topic -- it is
        merely the first statement of a discussion.)

        Bob

    	I think the recent replies have set some things straight, and
    	anyone who chooses to read the topic (expecting it to concern
    	a broader interpretation of "home schooling") will not have to
    	read very far to find out whether he wants to continue following
    	the discussion or not.
    
    	I'd be interested to see part 2. I'd also be interested in seeing
    	some contact information regarding the program in the basenote
    	(even by mail if you don't want to post it in public, Richard.)
    
    	There is a whole conference about home schooling:  (hit KP7)
    
    	501CLB::EIS4$DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HOME_SCHOOLING.NOTE;1
    
    
    	I'm not so sure that it is necessary to change the title (yet.)
    	The discussion may very well develop into about home schooling 
    	in general.

    	And to do my part to help the topic develop into the broader
    	discussion, I'll share some of my family's experiences with
    	home schooling.
    
    	It is not for everyone.  From our experience we find that not all 
    	kids flourish in home school.  We currently have 3 of 4 doing
    	home school (grades 1, 3, 5) and our oldest (who is now in 7th
    	grade) is in public school.
    
    	The first kid, Tom, has been a challenge for us in finding the 
    	right educational arena for him.  Like many first-time parents,
    	my first wife and I were excited and proud to get him into school
    	as soon as possible, and we got special permission to extend the
    	kindergarden admission rules for the local school at the time.
    	He was two months shy of his 5th birthday though he was supposed
    	to be 5 by August 31.  Tom excelled academically, learning to
    	read, add (not just count), and speak some French in that first
    	year.  But (as with most 5-year-old boys, research now shows) he 
    	was not ready emotionally for the school environment.  We began home
    	schooling him for first grade, focusing more on letting the little
    	boy be a little boy.  We formulated our own curriculum that was
    	very heavy on field trips -- quite literally out in the fields
    	in many cases.  We caught tadpoles and raised them.  Same with
    	caterpillars into butterflies.  He learned to make his own kite
    	and raise vegetables (pumpkins, zucchini and carrots.)  We adopted
    	a spider that set up house on our front porch, and he would catch
    	moths and throw them in the web.  In some ways, we let HIM set
    	his curriculum!  We took two years to work through first grade, 
    	and we allowed him to recapture the year of lost toddlerhood that 
    	we stole from him by pushing him into school early.
    
    	We put him in public school in the second grade when we moved to
    	Colorado.  He was then with kids his own age instead of older than
    	him, and he really took to the classroom environment -- especially 
    	the way that it lent itself to competition.  Our second-oldest,
    	Catherine, also started kindergarden at that time.  She hated it, 
    	and begged her mom to start up homeschool for her.  We did for her
    	first grade, and Tom decided to stay home too.  He missed the
    	school environment, and outside activities like scouts and soccer
    	weren't enough for him.  He stuck it out through the middle of
    	6th grade, and then we put him back into public school for the
    	4th quarter of 6th grade.  It didn't take them long to peg him
    	as a top-of-the-class student, and it didn't take us long to
    	see the personal and spiritual change that the public school
    	environment spawned in him.  
    
    	This is our struggle.  He is happier in the school environment,
    	and excels there academically, but his behavior deteriorates
    	dramatically under the influence of public school.  Private/
    	parocial school is not an option for us financially, and who
    	knows if they would make a difference anyway?
    
    	Fortunately for our other three so far, they absolutely prefer
    	the home school environment, and they are all perfect angels!  :^)

Part 2 of 2

As stated in .0, home schooling courses are not all fundamentalist Christian
in orientation, but a sizable portion are.

<the school> replaces the actual name of the institution.

The balance of the application begun in .0 is as follows:

11.  Most recent Basic Youth Conflict Seminar
     Husband:  Date____________ Location____________
     Wife:     Date____________ Location____________

     Most recent Life Purpose (Advanced) Seminar
     Husband:  Date____________ Location____________
     Wife:     Date____________ Location____________

12.  Does each parent have daily, quality time with the Lord?

     Do you have regular, meaningful times of prayer together as
     husband and wife?

13.  How many hours a day does the father work?
     Travel time?________

14.  Is the mother employed outside the home?
     (If "Yes," please explain)

15.  Are you committed to the goals of financial freedom?

     Does your family tend to face financial pressures?

16.  Has anyone in the family ever been arrested for any reason?
     (If "Yes," explain)

17.  Do you have a television in the home?
     [ ] Yes  (Hours per week watched:_______)
     [ ] No
     [ ] Yes, will remove by ___/___/___

18.  Please check any of the following damaging influences that
     are in your home:
     [ ] Alcohol	[ ] Tobacco
     [ ] Any music with a rock beat (heavy or mild)
     [ ] Sensual reading/viewing material
     [ ] Occult materials/items
     [ ] Other: _____________________

     Please explain any items marked.

19.  Are both sets of grandparents in agreement with your applying
     to <the school>?

     Father's parents [ ]	Mother's parents [ ]

20.  Is there any other information <the school's> staff should be aware
     of in working to make your family successful?

Non-refundable application processing fee notification.

Place for signatures and dates

Place for pastor's signature and date

I received about six catalogs from home schooling institutions or
correspondence schools in recent months.  About half were to some degree
fundamentalist Christian in orientation.  (And in saying this I'm not
including the high school curriculum available through Brigham Young
University.)

After reviewing the materials, it appears to me that home schooling,
though not exclusive territory, is a stronghold of the Religious Right.

Shalom,
Richard

          <<< Note 1085.10 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Unquenchable fire" >>>

>I received about six catalogs from home schooling institutions or
>correspondence schools in recent months.  About half were to some degree
>fundamentalist Christian in orientation.  
    
    	Are you suggesting that the 2-part survey is representative
    	of Christian homeschooling programs?

>After reviewing the materials, it appears to me that home schooling,
>though not exclusive territory, is a stronghold of the Religious Right.

	Is 50% considered "a stronghold"?
    
    	(Frankly I would have expected that a larger percentage were
    	at the very least Christian, if not fundamentalist...)
    
    	Is there something wrong with homeschooling being "a stronghold
    	of the Religious Right"?
    
    	Is there something wrong with the Religious Right?
    
    	Is there something wrong with homeschooling?
    
    	I'm trying to get a feel for your purpose in this topic.

>    	(Frankly I would have expected that a larger percentage were
>    	at the very least Christian, if not fundamentalist...)

Well, counting Brigham Young University, it certainly would be.

Shalom,
Richard

    	So who was the basenote survey from?  Send me mail if you
    	don't want to (or can't) post it here.

Advanced Training Institute International
Box One
Oak Brook, IL 60522-3001

telephone (708) 323-7073

fax (708) 323-6746

    
    Homeschooling is challenging and rewarding.  We have homeschooled our
    first son, Graham (7), through the second grade.  He has never been to
    public school.  We have two other children (6 mos and 2 yrs).  It is
    our intent to homeschool them as well, at least through the second
    grade.
    
    Fundamentally it is a difficult thing to homeschool in this age.  And
    frankly, many homeschoolers feel forced into the mode because of the
    state of our public schools, both academically and culturally.  I don't
    think we would have chosen to homeschool if schools weren't doing such
    a poor job actually teaching our children academically and weren't
    doing such a good job at teaching them non-Christian values.  In any
    case, homeschoolers are taking the high road on this issue.  The
    sacrifice is immense and the motivating concern is very serious and
    realistic.
    
    Because of our two younger children and the demands of young children
    we have come to realize that what is best for Graham (homeschooling)
    pretty much excludes the best for the younger children.  So we have
    decided to place Graham in private, Christian school where he will get
    an excellent education and our values will be promoted and inculcated. 
    We were, however, prepared to put him in public school if God had not
    made private school possible for us.  Basically, at this point in our
    childrens' lives our philosophy has become that what is best for Graham
    cannot exclude what is adequate for the others.  Very young children
    need a lot of time and nurturing, especially from their Mother. 
    Homeschooling has prevented Elaine from spending adequate time with our
    young ones.  So, God has provided for us a way to resolve our problem.
    
    jeff

American School
"A century of secondary correspondence study - 1897-1995"
	850 East Fifty-Eighth Street
	Chicago IL 60637
	(312) 947-3300

Hewitt
"Teaching your child to look for God in all the right places"
	PO Box 9, 2103 B Street
	Washougal, WA 98671
	(206) 835-8708
	fax: (206) 835-8697

A Beka Home Schooling
"Academic excellence through Christian character-building textbooks
and programs."
	Box 18000
	Pensacola, FL 32523-9160
	1-800-874-2352
	fax: 1-800-874-3590

Advanced Training Institute (See note 1085.14)

Brigham Young University
"Quality Educational experiences to all who can benefit from
indiviualized learning"
	BYU Independent Study
	206 Harman Building
	PO Box 21514
	Provo, UT 84602-1514
	(801) 378-4660

These all offer a high school curriculum.

I recall calling 6 schools for their home schooling catalogues.  I cannot
find the sixth catalogue.  Nor do I recall the name of the school.  Maybe
there were only 5.

Shalom,
Richard

    
    My homeschooled second grader took the standard achievement tests last
    week (administered by an independent party) and scored in the 96
    percentile.  I'm proud of him but most proud of my wife who has labored
    so diligently in love for the sake of our son's academic and moral
    education.
    
    jeff

    Richard:
    
    I'm guessing but the sixth is probably Bob Jones Curriculum...I'm only
    saying this because Bob Jones is quite big in the homeschooling
    environment.
    
    -Jack

    
    There are probably 50-100 homeschooling curricula available.  We use
    "Calvert School" curriculum.  Calvert started as a preparatory school
    in Baltimore over 100 years ago (it may still exist, I don't know). 
    Many missionaries utilized a modified Calvert curriculum (it was the only 
    one available then) to school their children while in the field.  It has no
    overtly Christian content.  Interestingly, they guarantee that a child
    using their curriculum for eight years (1st - 8th) will be prepared to
    enter college.
    
    jeff

    I'm hoping for the voucher system to go through as well so my kids can
    get a real education.

No, it wasn't Bob Jones.  Had it been, I would not have even inquired.

Shalom,
Richard

    	Seton is another big one -- at least among Catholic home schoolers.
    
    	Weaver is also popular.

re Note 1085.20 by OUTSRC::HEISER:

>                               -< good ole Carnegie method >-
  

    Carnegie method refers to the tried and true method of Reading,
    Writing, and Aritmetic that made the U.S. the dominant force in the
    world.

 ZZ   No, it wasn't Bob Jones.  Had it been, I would not have even inquired.
    
    That's too bad.  I'm not a big Bob Jones fan either but I understand
    their homeschooling curriculum is quite good.
    
    -Jack

    I felt thoroughly saturated by the Right with what I received.  I
    certainly didn't need any more for "balance."
    
    Richard
    

    Richard:
    
    You sent away for literature to schools promoting Jesus Christ and
    Biblical precepts.  Did you expect any different?
    
    -Jack

    Richard,
    
    Did you learn anything positive from your research?   Did you find
    anyting that you would consider using with children?
    
                                          Patricia

>    You sent away for literature to schools promoting Jesus Christ and
>    Biblical precepts.  Did you expect any different?

Not true.  I sought literature from home schooling institutions.  Check out
the names of the schools I called.  You can't tell from the names alone their
orientations.

And I promote Jesus Christ and biblical precepts, in case you weren't aware.

Richard

    .28 Patricia,
    
    	We discarded the whole idea of home schooling for us.
    
    Richard
    

          <<< Note 1085.26 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Unquenchable fire" >>>

>    I felt thoroughly saturated by the Right with what I received.  I
>    certainly didn't need any more for "balance."
    
    	What led you to see these homeschool programs as "Right saturated"?
    
    	And a follow-up question, is the Right wrong in its schooling
    	methods?  If so, why?

    I said *I* felt saturated.  And I certainly don't want my son saturated
    with the notions of the Right.  He gets plenty of that without deliberately
    bringing it into our home.
    
    Richard
    

    
    I've forgotten, Richard: what evangelical "notions" are you at odds
    with?
    
    jeff

re Note 1085.33 by USAT05::BENSON:

>     I've forgotten, Richard: what evangelical "notions" are you at odds
>     with?
  
        I think Richard wrote "right", not "evangelical".

        The two are often confused, often deliberately for political
        gain.

        Some see them as quite far apart, as far apart as "the world"
        and the "kingdom of God".

        Bob

    There's a PBS special currently airing (produced in Chicago) that deals
    with the creation vs. evolution controversy in public schools.  It is
    definitely biased toward evolution, but still interesting.
    
    Mike

          <<< Note 1085.32 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Unquenchable fire" >>>

>    And I certainly don't want my son saturated
>    with the notions of the Right.  
    
    	Richard.  I asked:
    
    >>	And a follow-up question, is the Right wrong in its schooling
    >>	methods?  If so, why?
    
    	Your statement above indicates that your answer is "yes."
    
    	What "notions of the Right" are so terrible?  Especially,
    	what notions are so terrible that they bleed through 
    	eventhough you are the one doing the teaching?

    I've said nothing about any schooling methods.  Notions are not
    methods.

    Richard
    

    	And what "notions" of the Right are so bad -- especially so
    	bad that eventhough you are using their curriculum you can't
    	temper or counteract those "notions".
    
    	Many people who pull their kids out of public school do so
    	because of certain humanistic "notions" being espoused there,
    	but that doesn't stop them from using the public school's
    	curriculum and simply ensuring that their own morality and
    	mindset is emphasized.
    
    	Had you been able to get beyond your right-o-phobia, you would
    	have seen that some of those programs on your list (I'm not
    	familiar with all of them) are excellent.

    I believe that critical thinking, the scientific method, and a healthy
    scepticism are all required for the education of the anyone.
    
    Those methods need to be applied to every subject taught.  Somehow I
    cannot image any curriculum by the religious right fostering those
    attitudes.
    
                                      Patricia
    
    

    
    Hi Patricia,
    
    In other words, the religious right is simplistic, superstitious, and
    gullible?
    
    jeff

    Any time you place yourself under the teaching authority of another,
    you put yourself in a position of taking on the biases and philosophies
    of your teacher.  This is what Paul meant when he promoted
    likemindedness.  
    
    The danger I see in some churches today for example, is the lack of
    teaching of moral absolutes.  Without this, we train a society to
    become moral relativists...and hence we take on the curses of society
    we see today.  Curses like AIDS and other diseases, suicide rates going
    up, crime, indifference, and dependence on government...like a drug
    addict.
    
    My sister graduated from a State College in Massachusetts.  She came
    out espousing Lenin and Socialism.  She did so because she was
    iignorant at the time and her thought process was molded by her
    teacher...hence I now never give money to this school...which was also
    my school at one time.  This is what I see my tax money paying
    for...hence you Patricia, should understand by frustration being forced
    to subsidize this sort of thing.  So if your worried about the
    right...consider the fact that you have been under a ball and chain for
    quite some time now with the left!
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack

    We decided against home schooling for reasons undisclosed here.
    Our decision was made last year and without the unsolicited advice
    of persons who neither know us nor have a history of antagonism
    toward us.

    Richard
    

From .0

>9. To be answered by the father:
>   What do you believe is your God-given responsibility in the training
>   of your family?

>   To be answered by the mother:
>   What do you accept as your role in the training of your family?

Any comments on the father having a "God-given responsibility" while the
mother has a "role"?

Richard

    
    It looks like roles and responsibilities are covered ;)  Seriously,
    both have roles according to the implications of the questions.  It is
    rather biblical to say that men have a particular responsibility for
    leadership of the family.
    
    jeff

    I know a man who took a second shift job for the sole purpose of being
    able to homeschool.
    
    At this time, our first grader will be going to Light of the World
    Christian School in Milford.  As the other siblings enter school age, I
    have no doubt that homeschooling will be a consideration.
    
    I am somewhat torn though in regards to high school years.  I must
    admit I have good memories of high school even though we had a drug
    problem in the school.  But I remember the sports, the times with
    friends, the classes I enjoyed, etc.  I hate to have Gregory miss those
    oppotunities also!
    
    -Jack

    
    Hey Jack, take it *one* year at a time!  If you haven't homeschooled at
    all yet its too early to think about 10 years down the road!
    
    jeff

    True...I'm just lamenting over the fact that Secular Humanism and
    Teachers Union Beurocracies force people to have to use other
    alternatives.
    
    -Jack

    	re .39
    
    	Somehow I can't imagine you saying anything else...

    	re .42
    
    	Richard, if you are answering the questions I asked you, none
    	of those questions were about your decisions to homeschool or
    	not.  They were to help me understand your statements about
    	the Right's "notions", among other things.

    	re .43
    
    	And, Richard, I don't understand why you resurrect this,
    	given that the basenote questionnaire has already been
    	rejected by all participants here, and given that it is
    	not representative of Christian homeschooling in general.

    re .50  re .43
    
    I immediately objected to that question the moment I saw it.  From my
    knowledge of the religious right, I have to think, most would agree
    with the wording of the question.
    
    The Father is considered the spiritual leader of the household and the
    mother is considered suppordinate to the father.  Given that dicotomy
    then the man has his God given Responsibility and the women takes here
    role from the spirtitual leader of the household.
    
    There is a whole lot of dogma hidden in that question.
                                     
    
     Patricia

    	I don't doubt that MOST Christians (and not those you choose
    	to indict with the religious right label) would agree with
    	the statement.
    
    	You have to admit, though, that if one person has a God-given
    	responsibility and the other merely has a role, the first one
    	would seem to have it harder.  Maybe you should stop complaining
    	while you are still ahead!  :^)
    
    	But my statement was that everyone here rejected the survey (for
    	whatever reason) and not the specific questions.  The questionnaire
    	is not representative of homeschooling because no other homeschooling
    	program that I know of screens candidates in this manner.
    
    	And I'll bet there are some questions in there that we all would 
    	reject, at the very least as being inappropriate.

re Note 1085.47 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

>     True...I'm just lamenting over the fact that Secular Humanism and
>     Teachers Union Beurocracies force people to have to use other
>     alternatives.
  
        You're sounding almost like Richard, except his bogeyman was
        "notions of the right".

        Bob

    Bob:
    
    Just out of curiosity, what was the negative that pushed you over the
    edge to send your children to private school?
    
    -Jack

re Note 1085.54 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

>     Just out of curiosity, what was the negative that pushed you over the
>     edge to send your children to private school?

I don't think of it as a negative:  I wanted my children to have Catholic
Christian training integrated in their school experience, and I did not expect
the public schools to provide that (and I would protest vigorously if they did).

The daughter who goes to public schools went there for special needs
education which the private school could not provide, including some
teachers whom we felt were better for he.

Bob

    52.
    
    
    RE:
    
    Let me give you a brief reply.
    
    I'll say it nicely.
    
    
    Baloney!
    
    I will return later with a fuller answer.
    
    
                                    Patricia

    The child who is taught by example in the home will do well
    in his/her peer group outside the home.  The teaching starts
    at birth with proper boundaries/expectations set with room
    allowed for proper, age-appropriate decision making included.
    One can raise a child to have good standards and the ability
    to make good decisions even though that child does attend the
    public school system.  It can be easier on the child if the
    town in which one resides adheres to your high standards.  
    Otherwise, the child is set apart and has to deal with other
    inappropriate pressures.  Only the parents can make the choice
    together about where one sends ones off-spring.  If one cannot
    afford the luxury of anything but public education through 
    college degree, then spend your time working on ethics, decision
    making, freedom and responsibility.  It is funny that what one
    teaches in a caring manner does hold true.  Your off-spring, if
    given the right to rebel appropriately and grow at home, will
    not use society inappropriately.  Your greatest task as a parent
    is to raise that child into a caring, ethical adult who can function
    in the world at large and provide for their own future and the next
    generation they decide to bring into the world. 

    There are many ways to accomplish the above.  The parents are the
    central theme in it all.  With theism, atheism, humanism, etc, this
    can all be accomplished.  Somehow we are all imbued with the talents
    if we wish to use them.  One ism does not supercede another in the
    way to attain these goals.

    justme....jacqui

    	re .56
    
    	I await your reply, Patricia.  In particular I'm curious about
    	what specifically you saw as baloney in .52.  The whole thing?
    	A particular idea or statement?

    Joe,
    
    
    >	You have to admit, though, that if one person has a God-given
   > 	responsibility and the other merely has a role, the first one
   > 	would seem to have it harder.  Maybe you should stop complaining
   > 	while you are still ahead!  :^)
    
    
    Dripping with mustard. 
    
    This says to me  " I Joe/Male "Right Wing Christian" say that God has
    given men the responsibility to be head of household and it is harder
    to take all this responsibility, so you Patricia-Female Heathen should
    shut up and assume the inferior role that I say God has given you."
    
    And Of course, you may say, well if you don't believe me, just go look
    it up in Timothy and you will see where God tells you to be subordinate
    to men."  Just be subordinate and enjoy it!
    
    
    
    
    "

        <<< Note 1085.59 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>

>    Dripping with mustard. 
    
    	And dripping with sarcasm.  You'll note that it was the only
    	sentence that I ended with a smiley.  I use smileys very
    	miserly, so you can be sure that when I do it is meaningful.
    
    	I'm sorry you missed the meaning this time.  It was meant as
    	a wind-up, and the smiley is there to tell you not to let it
    	break your spring.
    
    	------------
    
    	Since we're talking, I've been wondering something about your
    	distaste for male and female roles.  Do you shave your legs and
    	arm pits?  Why?

    Patricia:
    
    I don't mean to pry so please don't take it this way.  Although you may
    consider my notes to be loaded with anger, I would be interested in
    knowing what particular injustice happened in your life to make you
    obtusely suspicious of males in general.  I mean...let's face it, there
    are alot of women in the world, my wife included, who very much honor
    the role of the man as setting the spiritual tone in the family.  When
    I encounter somebody like yourself, it becomes painfully obvious to me
    that most of the time, said person had some heavy stuff to deal with in
    the past...which made the person very sensitive to gender issues.  
    
    I am just curious.  No need to answer at all but it would very much
    help me to better understand where you are coming from.  If there is
    fear on my part, perhaps I won't come across so negative on the social
    issues.
    
    Rgds.,
    
    -Jack
    
    P.S. Didn't you miss me at all!!!?  :-}

    JAck,
    
    Your question is the stereotypical response to a women who refuse to be
    subordinate just because she happens to be a woman.
    
    You, Jill, Nancy, and probably many others representatives from your
    world view have asked me the question.
    
    I'm tired of responding to it.  There are some good valuing diversity
    courses ofter at Digital.  It may be helpful if you took one.
    
    If you already have, it may be helpful if you took another and paid
    more attention.
    
                                  Patricia

	Patricia --     
    
    	Your answer is stereotypical of one who cannot answer without
    	exposing what others suspect will be your answer.
    
>    There are some good valuing diversity
>    courses ofter at Digital.  It may be helpful if you took one.
    
    	I see you value Jack's position...

    Just because someone has a different opinion does not mean they have
    had some horrible experience in their past.  In fact, it may be just
    the opposite.

ZZ    I'm tired of responding to it.  There are some good valuing
ZZ    diversity courses ofter at Digital.  It may be helpful if you took one.
    
    Yes, it is stereotypical; however, it can also be looked at as a
    symptom so you really cannot be too harsh on me for assuming this.
    
    By the way, I did take a valuing diversity course up at LKG.  I found
    it to be interesting to a point; however, I also found it to be an
    exercise in conformity.  I shun this concept because it takes away the
    volition of the employee to make their own determinations on other
    individuals and draw their own conclusions.  I find political
    correctness as abhorrant as shoving religion down somebodys throat. 
    
    I am usually fairly good at pegging people Patricia...and I realize I
    could have been wrong in your case.  The instructor told us she was
    going to leave the room and asked us to fill in five categories of what
    we perceive her to be as a person.  The categories were...
    
    Family life
    
    Books and Authors
    
    Interests and Hobbies
    
    Can't remember the other two.
    
    These are the things I picked and I was the closest of all guesses....
    
    A.  Is a Lesbian, probably lives with somebody and may have been
    married in the past.   Bullseye!
    
    B.  Betty Freedant, Gloria Steinham, and has a high respect for 
        Molly Yard, Judge Hirschner, and other feminist role models. 
        Bullseye!
    
    C.  Member of the National Organization for Women, May or may not be a 
        strong advocate for womens rights but is definitely a liberal
        democrat.   Bingo on most of this!
    
    Actually, I found her to be a warm, nice individual who was open to
    listening...and she brought out some things in the class that were
    appropriate, practical, and helpful.  She was even willing to discuss
    things with me further if I wanted to.  I respect that and believe me,
    I respect her freedoms and rights to be who she is...and think the way
    she does.  But again, if diversity needs to be respected, then
    conformity is in direct contradiction to this.
    
    Think this way or else (Fill in your favorite response here!)  I don't
    see this as good for society.
    
    -Jack
    
    
    

    Joe,
    
    To be tolerant does not mean I have to value intolerance.  I value
    whatever decisions Jack and his wife have made regarding how they
    manage their household.
    
    I do not value Jack telling me that I should play a subordinate role in
    my household and if I do not than I must be an angry woman

 ZZ   I do not value Jack telling me that I should play a subordinate role
 ZZ   in my household and if I do not than I must be an angry woman
    
    Patricia...now I get it.  I did not mean to imply this.  What I said
    was that because you appear to be a champion of womens rights, I am
    wondering what drives this passion in you more stronly than others. 
    Then again what makes certain people more sensitive to the abortion
    issue than others.  What makes people more sensitive to AIDS than
    others?  Nine out of ten times, said person either had direct
    experience to mold their thinking...or they had a relative who had
    direct experience.
    
    By the way, do you understand the differentiating factors I make
    between diversity and multiculturalism?  Or am I completely
    miscommunicating here?
    
    -Jack

    	Well, Patricia, when you play the role of the lightning rod
    	you have to expect to get singed from time to time.
    
    	I expect nothing less from my participation...

 ZZ   Just because someone has a different opinion does not mean they have
 ZZ   had some horrible experience in their past.  In fact, it may be
 ZZ   just the opposite.
    
    Hi Debby:
    
    I agree with this...and anybody's past experience can most certainly
    justify a passion for something, i.e. the Brady Bill, etc.  If Patricia
    said something like, well...yeah I had a boyfriend who was violent and
    was constantly abusive, I wouldn't say, "Well, Patricia is just an
    emotional female who had a bad rap".  I would only say be careful not
    to scorn any roles the sexes have just because one violent man marred
    her perception.  
    
    -Jack

| <<< Note 1085.65 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>


| I am usually fairly good at pegging people Patricia...

	Say what???? Oh come on Jack. You have been wrong so often in notes
that they had to make a new set of numbers!!!!  :-)  The sad thing is that you
are wrong a lot Jack. A LOT! 

	BTW, being right on a test about people you don't know is much easier
than being right about people you're dealing with face to face or on the tube. 




Glen

| <<< Note 1085.67 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>


| Patricia...now I get it.  I did not mean to imply this.  What I said
| was that because you appear to be a champion of womens rights, I am
| wondering what drives this passion in you more stronly than others.

	Ahhh.... then maybe you should have asked it this way and not imply
what you did..... writing style Jack..... writing style...

| Nine out of ten times, said person either had direct experience to mold their 
| thinking...or they had a relative who had direct experience.

	It doesn't mean it had to be a negative one Jack. You know, like you
implied?


Glen

    Actually, every working woman has direct experience of oppression just
    and every Gay and Lesbian person has direct experience of oppression.
    
    Every woman has direct experience of oppression, but some are more
    conscious of the oppression than others.
    
    Every man also has direct experience of oppression.  I'm on weak
    grounds trying to make sense out of how men deal with that oppression. 
    some I would suspect accept the oppression as the necessary
    accompaniment of the Dominance that they also get from it.
    
    If men for instance believe getting to the top of the totem pole is an
    exciting, rewarding goal, they perhaps don't fully realize all they
    have to sacrifice for that goal.  Many men obviously don't want to see
    the competition for the top of the totem pole doubled.  If they can
    eliminate half the competition by oppressing women, then they have
    eliminated  competition.
    
    Jack,
    
    Your note to me was an oppressive note.  Your note indicated that you
    believed that it is man's responsibility to lead and woman's
    responsibility to play the role assigned by men.
    
    You were using a subtle form of oppression to nudge me into my place. 
    Your statement was, like "obvious you have some bad experience with men
    to not accept your role as a women".  The implication is that I am not
    a real woman, that I have a conflict with my gender identity if I don't
    accept men as the natural leaders.
    
    Taken one step further, which you did not do, but I have seen done in
    here, particularly in regards to Hillary Clinton is, that if a women
    does not accept here rule then she has a gender identify problem and
    may in fact be a Lesbian.  Thus one's own homophobia is played upon to
    keep women in line.
    
    This shows how all oppression relates to each other.  Particularly,
    Oppression of Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexuals and Oppression against women
    are linked.
    
    I recall another conversation we had about Jesus.  I admire Jesus as a
    feminist.  Two people were insulted because they thought I implied that
    "Jesus was effeminate".  Thus implying that Jesus was Gay.
    
    Women who do not accept a subordinate role are identified as Lesbian.
    
    Men who do not act "manly" are identified as effeminate and Gay.
    
    Homophobia and Oppression of women are linked.
    
    The examples in this conference of the linking have been readily
    noticeable.
    
                                Patricia

ZZ    Ahhh.... then maybe you should have asked it this way and not
ZZ    imply what you did..... writing style Jack..... writing style...
    
    Glen, choosing Soapbox as an example of me being right or wrong is a
    fallacy in itself.  Forget it.
    
    Patricia, no...I simply asked you if you had any personal experiences
    which have driven the passion in your heart for womens rights?  I ask
    only because:
    
    1. I know many women who feel the opposite you do.
    
    2. Like the Brady Bill, a passion is often indicative of past
    experiences.
    
    Therefore, I was asking and not categorizing!  
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    I hear that you do not agree with me but I do believe that that
    question is in fact oppressive behavoir, which has the intent of gently
    nudging me back in line into your opinion of women's stereotypical
    role.
    
    I don't take it personally.  It is an example of systemic oppression. 
    The system is in place that any woman who moves outside the accepted
    roles in subtly implied first to be an angry women, and later by more
    overt voices to be a Lesbian.
    
    The systemic oppression works in even other women, feeling threatened,
    feeling jeolous, feeling that there own choices are being questions
    also participate in the systemic oppression.  Men and women together
    systemically collude to keep Men in the dominant position and women in
    the subordinate position.
    
    Theologically, systemic oppression fits into my definition of Original
    Sin.  It is passed from one generation to the other, making it
    extremely difficult to break out of.
    
    
    Patricia

    Funny...by one of your replies yesterday, I could assume you
    systemically oppressed me by saying my reply had anger in it...hence I
    am one of those angry white males...to which I denied.  
    
    This proves that there is no intent to oppress...simply an inquiry. 
    Did you have any particular experience which molded your position on
    womens rights?  That was all.
    
    -Jack

    Youthful experiences.
    
    -  I was not allowed to go swimming with my brother at the boys club.
    -  I was not allowed to join scouting.
    -  I was not allowed to play baseball in the little league.
    -  I was not allowed to sell newspapers and make money.
    -  I was not allowed to shine shoes.
    -  I was not allowed to attend Boston Technical High School.
    -  I was requied to play in the school yard with girls only
    -  I was required to take only cooking, and sewing in school and not
       allowed to take industrial arts and shop.
    -  I loved math growing up and was encouraged to be a math teacher but
       not a scientist, mathematician, or Engineer.
    
    
                             
    Those are the experiences of most women particular women forty and
    older.  Younger women have content with less overt forms of gender
    oppression.
    
                                 patricia

| <<< Note 1085.73 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>


| Glen, choosing Soapbox as an example of me being right or wrong is a
| fallacy in itself.  Forget it.

	Jack, how many times have you just said that I voted strictly
democratic and you have to be reminded over and over? And how many times have
you had to apologize for things you implied? Many. In here, in soapbox,
everywhere. Saying soapbox doesn't count really doesn't make sense. Maybe you
could tell me why?


Glen

    Glen...it's easy....your my favorite person to annoy!  I know for a
    fact that you will spend alot of energy and time replying to my
    assertions.  No, actually Glen most of the time I do forget things that
    are told me...and sometimes I put people in a box, I admit it.
    
    My point with Patricia was that there were physical and philosophical
    indications that told me the instructor was in fact a lesbian.  Come on
    Glen, I've been told by Topaz et al that I am an angry white middle
    class American male!  The truth is I abhor discrimination of any kind
    and this is why I harp on quotas...but Topaz and others still put me in
    that box no matter how many times I tell them.  I think it's human
    nature to do this Glen.  Kind of like...if you had long hair, drove a
    motorcycle, wore a big peace sign on your shirt, and smokes joints
    frequently, it can safely be assumed you dislike Nixon, the Vietnam
    conflict, and you are part of the sexual revolution.  So please stop
    assuming I don't value diversity because it simply isn't true.  
    
    -Jack

	Jack, you do say that you hate discrimination all the time. I will even
back you on that, and have. But the way in which you write, or word, or present
your notes can make people think you are that way. And seeing you haven't
changed your tune, or style, it would appear they will still think this about
you. 



Glen

    Agreed.  I come across in a cranky manner.  I do so because I expect
    logic to flow somewhat from people and I don't see it at times.  I see
    a blatent disregard for the law.  The ends justifying the means and all
    that.  I tend to lose respect for a group that talks out of both sides
    of their mouths.
    
    Affirmative Action IS quotas.
    
    -Jack

	If you really had a problem with blatent disregard for the law, then
you would be against those who picket abortion clinics. 


Glen

ZZ    If you really had a problem with blatent disregard for the law,
ZZ    then you would be against those who picket abortion clinics. 
    
    If you mean tresspassing on private property...then yes, I agree with
    you.  And I'm not so much against people willfully braking the law...as
    long as there is a penalty and the perp is willing to pay the price.  
    
    What I am against is state sanctioned law breaking...where people are
    rewarded for it.  Goooooo California!!!!!
    
    -Jack

	Could you explain the Califor-nye-A thing?

    Sure.  Governor Pete Wilson is heading up a state campaign to remove
    all Affirmative Action/Retribution programs from the state.  This will
    eliminate the quota mentality and discrimination on a legalized level
    will be removed and the 1964 Civil Rights Act will finally hold up to
    the integrity it was intended to do.
    
    This will be a referendum in the next election.  I suspect it will
    overwhelmingly pass.  
    
    Glen, I don't discount inequity in the workplace.  Like you, I abhor
    discrimination.  Let's think of a better way of doing it that's all. 
    I've already mentioned a few ideas...like tax incentives and other
    rewards to stimulate the private sector.  I am also rethinking my view
    on Affirmative Action for colleges and Universities.  Education has to
    be earned and can stay with you a lifetime.  As long as the student
    meets the academic requirements, I see that as a possibly good way to
    help establish equity in the workplace.  The current system reeks of
    big brother.  It is illegal, it is irresponsible, it is abused by both
    genders, and it has proven to help the wrong people!
    
    -Jack

    	The law allows for picketing abortion clinics (or picketing
    	almost anything else for that matter...)