T.R | Title | User | Personal Name | Date | Lines |
---|
1083.1 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | You-Had-Forty-Years!!! | Wed May 10 1995 15:27 | 22 |
| I agree with you...in the sense that dogmatism can produce a negative
effect on a governing body.
I believe for the last thirty years, congress was run by a band of
religious zealots...wielding their secular humanist dogma throughout
the walls of the Capitol. They may have felt their hearts were in the
right place but in essence their dogma forced them to shoot themselves
in the foot. Now we have created a bunch of little government
dependent countries within our own...little bosnias if you will.
What we need is a government that is going to encourage individuality,
entrepreneurship, and self reliance. We are moving along very slowly.
Incidently, I believe the current scope of government in our country is
undoubtedly socialist...and I also believe they are treasonist!
Another fruit of secular humanism.
Yes, the Christian Coalition is a large lobby for the republicans. I
am not a member and don't proscribe to all their platforms. However, I
do see a definite trend to entropy when a religion...like secular
humanism...works its way into government.
-Jack
|
1083.2 | excellent idea, maybe not so excellent execution | OUTSRC::HEISER | the dumbing down of America | Wed May 10 1995 15:57 | 6 |
| Other political groups have been doing this for years, why can't the
religious right join in? NOW, NAMBLA, and other liberal groups have
been pushing their agenda(s) on politicians. The Church needs to speak
up and stop being so complacent.
Mike
|
1083.3 | Internal pointer | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Wed May 10 1995 16:12 | 5 |
| Also see topic 497, "Pat Robertson and the Religious Right"
Shalom,
Richard
|
1083.4 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Wed May 10 1995 16:15 | 6 |
| The so-called Christian Coalition does not speak for this Christian or
this Christian's church.
Shalom,
Richard
|
1083.5 | | CSC32::J_OPPELT | Whatever happened to ADDATA? | Wed May 10 1995 17:05 | 19 |
| <<< Note 1083.0 by APACHE::MYERS >>>
> It is unprecedented, to the best of my
> recollection, for a specific religious organization to have such a hold
> on the ear, and actions, of our political leaders.
So which "specific religious organization" might that be? I think
it is quite telling that the Christian Coalition is made up of
people from scores of major and minor religious denominations, and
is supported by hundreds of identifiable organizations.
> There is
> a line somewhere between the leadership of this country being guided by
> the moral convictions of its citizens, and the leadership being
> directed by theological dogma.
Before that line is ever crossed, I suppose our leadership would
first have to start being guided by the moral convictions of its
citizens. Fear not! We are far from even approaching that.
|
1083.6 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 10 1995 17:38 | 17 |
|
re: 1083.2
NAMBLA is not representative of a liberal group. At least no more so
than the Nazi's and skin heads are representative of conservatives.
Let's not pretend that loony nut-cases represent the mainstream; it's
either wacko or dishonest to do so.
"The Church," in my opinion, is not equal to the Christian Coalition.
"The Church" is not equal to conservative Protestantism. "The Church"
is the collective body of Christiandom. I have no problem with church
leaders speaking up regarding issues of spirituality and morality. I do
have difficulty with the pulpit being used as part of a partisan
machine... Republican or Democrat. You don't really want "The Church"
to have to play the same rules as political action committees, do you?
Eric
|
1083.7 | | USAT05::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed May 10 1995 17:42 | 12 |
|
But the Christian Coalition is only a group of individuals. You must
understand this in order to provide the proper context for your fears.
Just because "the church" may preach from the pulpit the same values
and concerns as the Christian Coalition doesn't logically or legally
make them one organization.
Really, now, get a grip on yourself ;)
jeff
|
1083.8 | yes | STRATA::BARBIERI | | Wed May 10 1995 17:44 | 8 |
| re: .0
Jesus was not political so far as I can tell. He just went
around changing hearts.
I agree with you 100%.
Tony
|
1083.9 | | TINCUP::BITTROLFF | Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems | Wed May 10 1995 17:44 | 25 |
| .0 APACHE::MYERS
Eric,
Well said, I was planning on entering a similar note, but you've said it better
than I could have. In the next contract is language aimed as negating the first
amendment, specifically a constitutional amendment allowing a 'voluntary' moment
of silence (does this mean that I can talk through it if I don't volunteer),
religious displays on government property (can you guess which religion?) and
prayer at government sponsored events (can you guess whose prayer?). Frankly, I
find this terrifying.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.1 MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!"
I believe for the last thirty years, congress was run by a band of
religious zealots...wielding their secular humanist dogma throughout
the walls of the Capitol.
Jack,
Get a dictionary. Look up religion. Look up secular. Look up humanism. You will
find that they are opposites, and calling secular humanism a religion is
incorrect. This does not mean that there are not people trying to push secular
humanist beliefs, but by *definition* it is not a religion.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
1083.10 | | USAT05::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed May 10 1995 17:49 | 6 |
|
-.1
How, Bittrolff, is it "terrifying"? Please enlighten me.
jeff
|
1083.11 | someone had to do something | OUTSRC::HEISER | the dumbing down of America | Wed May 10 1995 17:50 | 23 |
| Eric, regardless of what group it is, there are several out there
pushing their agendas. The result of Christians being complacent is
seeing our basic freedoms (including freedom of religion) fading away.
If you don't like what's going on in your country, you owe it to
yourself and God to exercise your power to change by using the ballot
booth. Prior to the CC, Christians were getting their interests stomped
on. The squeaky wheel is what gets the grease.
The CC is separate from the Church. If you don't like the CC, then
maybe someone will start a group that more suits your needs. Obviously
the CC is doing something right to have so many different denominations
represented. And our voice is being *HEARD*! Many politicians are
actually have to live up to their campaign promises now because we're
watching how they vote and distributed report cards. No longer will
they have zero accountability to Christians. It's been too long where
politicians would tell Christians one thing and do another.
As you say, the CC and church are separate. The CC is the voice, not
the pulpit and churches need not worry about political action
committees' rules. The CC is merely a vessell that allows Christians
to say, "We're not putting up with your nonsense anymore."
Mike
|
1083.12 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 10 1995 17:55 | 15 |
|
re: 1083.5
> So which "specific religious organization" might that be? I think it
> is quite telling that the Christian Coalition is made up of people from
> scores of major and minor religious denominations, and is supported by
> hundreds of identifiable organizations.
The Christian Coalition is a specific religious organization. It is my
understanding that there are no Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or
Native American (non-converted variant). It was also my understanding
that the vast majority (not all) of the membership is made up of
conservative Protestants versus Roman Catholics, Methodists, Unitarians.
Eric
|
1083.13 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | You-Had-Forty-Years!!! | Wed May 10 1995 18:04 | 20 |
| Steve:
Check the record bub!!! The U.S Supreme court defined Secular Humanism
as a religion during the Reagan Administration.
I am a 34 year old pup...and as a thirty four year old, I contrast the
governing bodies of today as opposed to the times of the Federalist
Papers. I see the United States as a SOCIALIST country...pure and
simple. The authors of the Constitution made it abundantly clear...the
the Federal Government WAS NOT TO IMPEDE on the rights of the
citizenry. In the last 30 years I have seen our Federal government
continually erode the precepts of our founding fathers. I find this
consideralbly more reprehensible and terrifying. As for the moment of
silence, I understand the problem. So please, let's stop the nonsense
and privatize the schools so I can pay for my own childs education and
whether or not he has a moment of silence. Please stop holding a gun
to my head and telling me I have to pay for a failed decrepid school
system.
-Jack
|
1083.14 | | USAT05::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed May 10 1995 18:17 | 6 |
|
You're wrong, Myers. The Christian Coalition is a political
organization. It takes money from anyone who will give it.
jeff
|
1083.15 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 10 1995 18:21 | 23 |
|
I get the feeling that the Christian Coalition has latched on to that
politically popular, and effective, tactic of professing victimization.
This is where you paint yourself as being a repressed victim of the
powers that be. And Americans loves an underdog fighting the good
fight. Now the (victimized) Christian Coalition, just a rag-tag band of
diverse, (but all Christian) religiously persecuted individuals, can
deflect all countering opinions as an attempt to suppress free
expression; as anti-religion, anti-family, and anti-American
(treasonous, I think Jack said).
Yup, it just might work. I guess I'm in the minority; I've not
experienced any reduction in personal freedoms, religious or otherwise.
I still practice my faith, such as it is, with no repression or
harassment by the authorities. Why just the other day I was praying
quietly by myself... IN A GOVERNMENT BUILDING! Shocking, I know. Thank
goodness I wasn't found out. And the other day a was not prevented from
walking into the church of my choice, on a weekday no less. :^) I
guess it's fair to say that I think the claim that our religious and
personal freedoms have been fading away for the past 30 (40) years is a
bit like the emperor's clothes.
Eric
|
1083.16 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 10 1995 18:29 | 11 |
|
> You're wrong, Myers. The Christian Coalition is a political
> organization. It takes money from anyone who will give it.
Thank you. My church will also take money form anyone who will give it.
By the way, I'm usually referred to as Myers only by my close personal
friends, my wife, and people who are pissed at me. I am pleased to have
you a friend, Jeff. :^)
Eric
|
1083.17 | | USAT05::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed May 10 1995 18:30 | 5 |
|
I think you've got your head in the sand or you are woefully ignorant
of current events.
jeff
|
1083.18 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 10 1995 18:38 | 6 |
| re: 1083.17
Or I could be as paranoid of the Christian Coalition as you are of
government.
Dumb ol' sand spitin' Myers
|
1083.19 | | USAT05::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed May 10 1995 18:46 | 4 |
|
I'm not paranoid of government. Whatever gave you that idea?
jeff
|
1083.20 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | You-Had-Forty-Years!!! | Wed May 10 1995 18:47 | 16 |
| Eric:
I must respectfully disagree with you on the issue of personal
freedoms. Consider the following...the art of taxation is to be used
for nothing...I REPEAT...Nothing more than to fund that which
Constitutionally sound. You my friend...(You Myers :-)) are currently
funding massive pork projects and countless other entitlements that are
very much unconstitutional. My tax dollars had no place in bailing out
Chrysler, offering subsidies to foreign business interests, continually
racking up the credit card to drop currency into a bottomless
pit...Don't you see Eric, YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT....Reagan or whomever,
the Federal Government has ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to impede your right to
self reliance, where you send your kids to school, how and where you
spend your money...and yes, the handgun you may think of purchasing.
-Jack
|
1083.21 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | You-Had-Forty-Years!!! | Wed May 10 1995 18:52 | 13 |
| Eric:
The Christian Coalition is a lobbying group...like many others. The
House and the Senate are made up of people from all backgrounds. They
aren't going to always bend to the will of the CC....just as some
congresscritters don't always bend to the will of herr Clinton. It
simply doesn't work that way.
Now the 1992 budget deal was a complete sham...and many politicos
deservedly paid with their political lives. I think congress has
hopefully learned what a hot potato is and what isn't!
-Jack
|
1083.22 | | OUTSRC::HEISER | the dumbing down of America | Wed May 10 1995 19:22 | 6 |
| Usually military equipment against civilians is also against Federal
law, nevermind being unconstitutional.
Or course, the validity of the constitution was suspended under FDR and
we've been operating out from under it since. Maybe that's
government's excuse.
|
1083.23 | let them play aswell | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | happiness- U want what U have | Wed May 10 1995 19:33 | 40 |
| re .0
here in europe, one side effect of the OKC bombing has been the extensive
press coverage of the far right christian movements in the US.
according to the reports, christian political groupings have systematically
spread their influence in recent years and now control a sizeable faction
within the republican party (about a third as i recall, though i'm not sure
about the figure).
in the following, i'll assume that what you call the christian coalition
is equivalent to the conservative christian groupings which i have read about.
i welcome the christian coalition as a political grouping for the following
reasons:
- as a movement it represents an american reality and needs to be integrated
into the political discourse. a movement which is explicitly left out of the
political establishment becomes a danger to the establishment as it need not
abide by the rules of the establishment.
- as CC is acknowledged as a movement and integrated into the political
discourse, CC will be able to gain more profile. this in turn will carry the
work of the organisation into the open and will make it easier to track and
to oppose rather than fending off undercover operations which it carries
out under the hood of established parties.
- as CC gains own profile, the likelihood of a schism with the non-christian
wing of the established party/parties is increased. this will create a third
force and one more competitor in the political arena - a situation which can
only be of benefit to the voters, as the parties will have to make a greater
effort for winning and keeping majorities.
bottom line, they will lose their teeth once they become part of the political
process. as every one else does :-)
andreas.
|
1083.24 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 10 1995 19:34 | 25 |
|
Ok Jack, *you* can call me Myers. :^) You and I don't agree that much,
but I guess we're both pretty much harmless.
I realize you don't like paying taxes, but saying it's unconstitutional
doesn't just -- *poof* -- make it so. What is the Constitutional
argument against entitlements, local projects (commonly referred to as
pork), foreign aid. I don't like the debt any more than you, but is
seems to me that if were already unconstitutional, as you suggest, then
there wouldn't be a call for a constitutional amendment for a balanced
budget. I'm no lawyer, but I don't think there are any constitutional
restriction on what congress appropriates money. You don't like AFDC,
and I don't like the CIA. You don't like BATF and I don't like... ok I
don't like BATF, but you get the idea. Inevitably, the congress will
appropriate money for some things that some people will not like. That
doesn't make it unconstitutional.
We should probably find another topic if we're going to continue this
rat hole.
Eric
P.S. No Federal dollars were spent to bail out Chrysler. The Fed's
co-signed a loan which Chrysler paid off with its own revenue. The
government did not give money to Chrysler to pay off debt.
|
1083.25 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | You-Had-Forty-Years!!! | Wed May 10 1995 19:42 | 12 |
| I don't like the AFDC bercause the AFDC has proven to undermine the
traditions of those of African American Heritage. That's what repulses
me about the AFDC.
Clinton is now in the process of gutting the organizations that are
supposed to keep the OKC bombing incidence from happening!
And I never said paying taxes was unconstitutional. I said that
taxation should be for nothing more than supporting the precepts of the
Constitution.
-Jack
|
1083.26 | | USAT05::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed May 10 1995 19:43 | 14 |
|
anderas,
You make a wrong assumption. The Christian Coalition is a bonafide
political lobbying organization whose members are extraordinarily
mainstream. The Christian political groups who are influencing the
Republican party cannot be classified as "far right".
Those groups considered "far right" in the U.S. are Nazi-type groups,
skinheads, white supremists and other sundry strongly anti-Federalist
organizations. Some of these organizations throw a lethal mix of
religion in for fun or out of ignorance.
jeff
|
1083.27 | | POWDML::FLANAGAN | I feel therefore I am | Wed May 10 1995 19:47 | 6 |
| I agree with Andreas!
The more publicity the Christian coalition gets, the more rational
folks will understand their agenda and be cautious.
Patricia
|
1083.28 | | USAT05::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Wed May 10 1995 19:53 | 11 |
| > I agree with Andreas!
> The more publicity the Christian coalition gets, the more rational
> folks will understand their agenda and be cautious.
> Patricia
Actually, the more publicity the Christian Coalition gets, the more
rational folks will understand their agenda and be supportive.
jeff
|
1083.29 | | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | happiness- U want what U have | Wed May 10 1995 20:12 | 7 |
|
yes patricia, jeff. that was just my point. give them more publicity
and let people decide rationally! :-)
andreas.
|
1083.30 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 10 1995 20:17 | 18 |
| > Usually military equipment against civilians is also against Federal
> law, nevermind being unconstitutional.
I think more correctly there is a constitutional provision against
using the *army* against civilians. And that is only without the
request or consent of the state governor. I not think military
equipment, like guns and tanks, are prohibited from use by federal law
enforcement.
I'm not trying to justify a militaristic government, however. I just
don't think the constitution prohibits as much as you stated.
> Or course, the validity of the constitution was suspended under FDR and
> we've been operating out from under it since.
Huh?
Eric
|
1083.31 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 10 1995 20:23 | 12 |
| Jeff,
> And I never said paying taxes was unconstitutional.
You're right. Sorry for indicating otherwise. I knew this, but was
sloppy in my reply.
Do you think the expenditures are unconstitutional?
Eric
|
1083.32 | where our constitution went | OUTSRC::HEISER | the dumbing down of America | Wed May 10 1995 21:06 | 20 |
| > > Or course, the validity of the constitution was suspended under FDR and
> > we've been operating out from under it since.
>
> Huh?
Eric, write to the U.S. Printing Office and ask for Senate Document
93-549. This document was put together in 1973 after a lengthy
investigation. This document found that since March 9, 1933 we have
been in a declared state of national emergency, and our U.S. Constitution
has been suspended. We were even declared "Enemies of the State" by an
amendment to the War Powers Act of 1917 that FDR declared into law on
March 9, 1933 through executive orders 2039 and 2040.
In the U.S. Senate report they were basically at a loss on how to get
the U.S. Government back to its constitutional form since with the War
Powers Act they only gave the ability to the Executive Office to terminate
the state of national emergency. They also found that 70-80% of the
Federal Government to be unconstitutional.
Mike
|
1083.33 | | OUTSRC::HEISER | the dumbing down of America | Wed May 10 1995 21:09 | 7 |
| Re: Right vs. Left
I think it's a mistake to view political stances on a line. It's more
of a circle. If you go far enough along the circle, you get radical
extremists in both arcs.
Mike
|
1083.34 | | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | happiness- U want what U have | Wed May 10 1995 21:16 | 4 |
| "les extremes ses touchent" - rousseau
[the extremes touch one-another]
|
1083.35 | | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 10 1995 21:31 | 22 |
|
Thanks for the pointer, Greg. I'll have to get that document.
I'm a bit confused though. If the constitution is suspended, what good
would a balanced budget amendment or term limits amendment do? And
wouldn't that make the Supreme Court moot? How about Brown v. Board of
Education, is that null and void? Is the voting right act
unconstitutional? I'm trying to understand what it means affect, if
any, this has had on how congress has legislated.
> In the U.S. Senate report they were basically at a loss on how to get
> the U.S. Government back to its constitutional form since with the War
> Powers Act they only gave the ability to the Executive Office to
> terminate the state of national emergency.
Are you suggesting that in the past 62 years, 11 presidents and
countless congressmen, no one ever asked the president to issue an
executive order rescinding the state of national emergency? This is wild
stuff! Have you asked your senator and representative to contact the
executive branch and get this thing resolved? What was their response?
Eric
|
1083.36 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | You-Had-Forty-Years!!! | Wed May 10 1995 22:41 | 11 |
| ZZ Do you think the expenditures are unconstitutional?
Most definitely. I find alot of the subsidies the government provides
even domestically are unconstitutional. Foreign subsidies, farm
subsidies, etc. I find Social Security to be absolutely abhorrant and
interferes very much with the individuals private affairs. I find this
very distasteful. Incidently, our government is robbing the Social
Security trust fund...and they aren't paying it back. They aren't even
doing the socialism bit right!!
-Jack
|
1083.37 | | OUTSRC::HEISER | the dumbing down of America | Wed May 10 1995 22:54 | 5 |
| Eric, I haven't contacted anyone yet because I just found out about it
recently. For all I know, it may be business as usual because they're
all in this together.
Mike
|
1083.38 | | BIGQ::SILVA | Diablo | Thu May 11 1995 02:32 | 13 |
| | <<< Note 1083.28 by USAT05::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung" >>>
| Actually, the more publicity the Christian Coalition gets, the more
| rational folks will understand their agenda and be supportive.
Depends on how they market themselves Jeff. The CFV did a great job out
in Colorado. Much of everything they said were not true, blown out of
proportion, and some lies. But they did market themselves very well. I guess
fear can do that, even if it isn't true.
Glen
|
1083.39 | I feel, therefore it is? | APACHE::MYERS | | Thu May 11 1995 14:31 | 20 |
|
> I find alot of the subsidies the government provides even
> domestically are unconstitutional.
Based on which articles?
I find the death penalty, and covert CIA operations to be
unconstitutional, but I'm not the final arbiter on what is and is not
constitutional. The Supreme Court is. While I don't hold congress and
the executive branch up as examples of selfless servants of the
people, I also don't think they run willy-nilly with blatant disregard
for the constitution. Obviously there can be honest differences of
opinion regarding constitutional law. Just because you or I *think*
something is unconstitutional doesn't make it so. An open debate or
mock trial would be interesting, but this isn't the forum.
Peace,
Eric
|
1083.40 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | You-Had-Forty-Years!!! | Thu May 11 1995 14:33 | 9 |
| Ohh...so Glen, you do agree then that people fear that which they do
not understand???
I'd be interested in knowing because when I brought up Greg Griffis in
Soapbox, you and I had an exchange regarding his methods...you saying
he was obnoxious and I saying he presented something that made people
uncomfortable.
-Jack
|
1083.41 | | BIGQ::SILVA | Diablo | Thu May 11 1995 19:16 | 18 |
| | <<< Note 1083.40 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!" >>>
| Ohh...so Glen, you do agree then that people fear that which they do not
| understand???
Jack, by fear, I was talking about the fears that the CFV put out in
their literature, not that they wrote what they did based on fears.
| I'd be interested in knowing because when I brought up Greg Griffis in
| Soapbox, you and I had an exchange regarding his methods...you saying he was
| obnoxious and I saying he presented something that made people uncomfortable.
Jack, who do you have these conversations with??? :-) I don't remember
ever calling Greg obnoxious. Could you provide me a pointer?
Glen
|
1083.42 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Fri May 12 1995 15:12 | 11 |
| Note 1083.8
> Jesus was not political so far as I can tell. He just went
> around changing hearts.
If you mean Jesus never ran for dogcatcher, you're right. But neither did
Moses, Gandhi, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King, Jr., or Dan and Phil Berrigan.
Shalom,
Richard
|
1083.43 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Fri May 12 1995 15:33 | 7 |
| .32
If it's the same thing I'm thinking of, it was slipped into FEMA under
Reagan, that proud defender of American democracy.
Richard
|
1083.44 | | TINCUP::BITTROLFF | Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems | Fri May 12 1995 16:23 | 32 |
| .10 USAT05::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung"
Benson, you got something against first names? :^)
It is terrifying because I believe that the ultimate goal of the CC is to
establish the U.S. as a Christian Theocracy, complete with all that accompanies
it. And their first target appears to be the Constitution. Constitutional
amendments should be taken very, very seriously, but the republicans, of late,
have been slinging amendments around as if they were ordinary bills.
And the really sad thing is that freedom of religion will be the first victim if
the CC gets their way. Perhaps I am being paranoid, I hope so, but history shows
otherwise.
Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.13 MKOTS3::JMARTIN "You-Had-Forty-Years!!!"
Check the record bub!!! The U.S Supreme court defined Secular Humanism
as a religion during the Reagan Administration.
Jack,
Get a dictionary. Look up secular. Look up humanism. Look up religion. Or, if
you are going to begin taking the supreme court as the highest authority, stop
protesting abortions. BTW, how did the Supreme Court decide that it met the
definition of worshiping a deity?
As for the rest of your note, I assume that you were addressing someone else, or
the general audience, as I don't really disagree with you.
|
1083.45 | For Steve | USAT05::BENSON | Eternal Weltanschauung | Fri May 12 1995 16:50 | 25 |
| >Benson, you got something against first names? :^)
Sorry. No, but I do usually reserve the use of first names with people that
I know. I mean no offense by using the last name only.
>It is terrifying because I believe that the ultimate goal of the CC is to
>establish the U.S. as a Christian Theocracy, complete with all that accompanies
>it. And their first target appears to be the Constitution. Constitutional
>amendments should be taken very, very seriously, but the republicans, of late,
>have been slinging amendments around as if they were ordinary bills.
The ultimate goal is not the establishment of a Christian theocracy. The CC
(and other Christians) probably hold our Constitution in higher regard than
even the average American and certainly higher than most humanistic groups.
How are they targeting the Constitution?
>And the really sad thing is that freedom of religion will be the first victim if
>the CC gets their way. Perhaps I am being paranoid, I hope so, but history shows
>otherwise.
What history of the CC or any other Christian organization supports your
paranoia?
jeff
|
1083.46 | The Song Remains The Same | STRATA::BARBIERI | | Fri May 12 1995 17:13 | 10 |
| Hi Richard,
I'm not sure I catch the drift of your reply, but it resembles
(to me) your rather frequent and odd blend of slight antagonism
with 'Shalom' as exiting remark.
I still happen to believe Jesus was not political while though
Martin Luther King was never dog catcher, he was political.
Tony
|
1083.47 | | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | happiness- U want what U have | Fri May 12 1995 17:38 | 13 |
|
.44> It is terrifying because I believe that the ultimate goal of the CC is ...
i'd be terrified aswell if i hadn't seen for myself that the range of opinions
amongst christians is almost as wide as in the electorate.
this conference has done alot for me in this respect.
andreas.
|
1083.48 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Fri May 12 1995 18:15 | 20 |
| Note 1083.46
Tony,
> I'm not sure I catch the drift of your reply, but it resembles
> (to me) your rather frequent and odd blend of slight antagonism
> with 'Shalom' as exiting remark.
I don't find it odd at all. Shalom to me is not a superficial or imposed (as
in military) peace.
> I still happen to believe Jesus was not political while though
> Martin Luther King was never dog catcher, he was political.
As was Jesus. As you are. As I am. Even those who are silent are political
by virtue of giving ascent to the political status quo, deny it as you will.
I bid you God's peace,
Richard
|
1083.49 | :-}>+- | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Fri May 12 1995 18:27 | 8 |
| Note 1083.47
>this conference has done alot for me in this respect.
Well thank God for that.
Richard
|
1083.50 | | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | happiness- U want what U have | Fri May 12 1995 20:40 | 7 |
| > Well thank God for that.
not to worry.
much of it was YOUR doing! ;-)
shalom,
andreas.
|
1083.51 | | TINCUP::BITTROLFF | Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems | Fri May 12 1995 20:40 | 40 |
| .45 USAT05::BENSON "Eternal Weltanschauung"
Title: For Steve
The ultimate goal is not the establishment of a Christian theocracy. The CC
(and other Christians) probably hold our Constitution in higher regard than
even the average American and certainly higher than most humanistic groups.
I believe that for the average member this is true. But I do see them putting
religion (not morals, but religious doctrine) into politics. This is a dangerous
trend.
How are they targeting the Constitution?
The upcoming contract with the American family includes as it's base the
introduction of a constitutional amendment allowing a 'moment of silence' in the
schools, the erection of religious symbols on government property, and prayers
at government sponsored events. I know that your take is proabably different,
but this looks like a direct attack on the wall of separation between church and
state to me. The safest course, actually the only course, for a government that
wants to ensure religious freedom for all of its citizens, is to remain strictly
neutral.
I also believe that when they say 'religious' what they actually mean is
'christian', and they would fight against it if it turned out to be
predominately non-christian.
What history of the CC or any other Christian organization supports your
paranoia?
Oh, come on Jeff. First of all, I am not limiting it to Christian religions, and
all you need do is look at any of the fundamental Islamic regimes. Going back
into our own history, take a look at some of the early colonies that were based
on theology, and the rather drastic penalties they imposed on those that did not
agree with them, which is a part of the reason the founding fathers were so
careful about the separation. Look at the inquisition and/or crusades as a
couple of examples of what happens when a religion doubles as the goverment.
Religions don't have a monopoly on this sort of behaviour, but they do have a
past history of abusing power once they get it.
Steve
|
1083.52 | history seems clear | LGP30::FLEISCHER | without vision the people perish (DTN 297-5780, MRO2-3/E8) | Fri May 12 1995 21:29 | 17 |
| re Note 1083.51 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF:
> Going back
> into our own history, take a look at some of the early colonies that were based
> on theology, and the rather drastic penalties they imposed on those that did not
> agree with them,
The irony was that many of those colonies were founded
because of intolerance of their religious views back home
(even though "back home" was thoroughly Christian) -- and
they then turned around and were intolerant in their own way!
Given the opportunity and absent legal restraint, people,
even Christians, even Bible-believing Christians, will be
intolerant of other religions.
Bob
|
1083.53 | Next they'll be shoving prayer down our kids' throats... | CSC32::J_OPPELT | Whatever happened to ADDATA? | Fri May 12 1995 22:48 | 13 |
| I think it is interesting to note that Dr. James Dobson (Focus
on the Family) is against mandated prayer in public schools.
He supports the moment of silence. He supports the ability of
a student to choose the Bible as his study hall reading material
(which is currently prohibited in some schools.) He supports
the ability of a student to fold his hands and bow his head and
say a silent prayer before lunch (which has been prohibited in
some schools.) He supports the ability of a valedictorian to
express his faith in his valedictorian speech.
But he is opposed to mandated, state-sanctioned prayer in
public schools.
|
1083.54 | Ralph Reed | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Sat May 13 1995 20:04 | 9 |
| The May 15, 1995, issue of Time magazine features on its cover Ralph
Reed, the 33 year old director of Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition.
Doubtlessly many will find any associated articles within hopelessly
biased toward the left.
Reed has been mentioned elsewhere in CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.
Richard
|
1083.55 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Sun May 14 1995 22:55 | 375 |
| TIME May 15, 1995 Volume 145, No. 20
THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO RALPH
Reed's burgeoning Christian Coalition evokes zeal and fear as it mobilizes
to dominate the political center
BY JEFFREY H. BIRNBAUM/WASHINGTON
[Ralph Reed and family] On Sunday, Ralph Reed rests--at least he tries to.
But on the night of April 30, his two-year-old,
Christopher, lay awake for hours, badly sunburned from a picnic, leaving
Reed little time for sleep in the modern, red brick house in Chesapeake,
Virginia, that he and his wife Jo Anne recently purchased . Reed struggles
for time with his family. "I get home as often as I can, even if it's only
for a day," says the 33-year-old father of three. Still, the executive
director of the formidable Christian Coalition has another mission, and at
dawn on Monday he was up and off to catch a 7 o'clock flight to Washington,
the beginning of a hectic but typical week of lobbying, socializing and
expanding his movement. Tuesday morning he was in New Hampshire, where
Governor Steven Merrill joked about Reed's imminent appearance before the
state senate: "They want to know you don't have two heads, that you don't
have horns." Reed, who looks every bit the eagle scout he once was,
responded with a guffaw that was too loud by half for his 140-lb. frame. The
New Hampshire senate, which usually deigns to listen only to would-be
Presidents, paid close attention to his message. The ranks of conservative
Christians, Reed said, are now "too large, too diverse, too significant to
be ignored by either major political party."
Not long ago, the Christian right was dismissed as a group of pasty-faced
zealots, led by divisive televangelists like Jerry Falwell, who helped yank
the Republican Party so far to the right that moderates were frightened
away. But Reed has emerged as the movement's fresh face, the choirboy to the
rescue, a born-again Christian with a fine sense of the secular mechanics of
American politics. His message, emphasizing such broadly appealing themes as
support for tax cuts, has helped make the Christian Coalition one of the
most powerful grass-roots organizations in American politics. Its 1.6
million active supporters and $25 million annual budget, up from 500,000
activists and a $14.8 million budget just two years ago, hold a virtual veto
on the Republican nominee for President, and will exert an extraordinary
influence over who will occupy the Oval Office beginning in 1997. In fact,
Reed's success represents the most thorough penetration of the secular world
of American politics by an essentially religious organization in this
century. To some, this ascendancy evokes more ancient spirits--say, that of
17th century New England theocracies, which were as invasive as they were
close-minded. To the movement's adherents, however, it signifies a bracing,
expansive and historic spiritual Renaissance.
Even as he courts centrist voters, however, Reed has been determinedly
pressing Republican politicians to move toward the Coalition's right-wing
policies. Last week the Coalition lobbied hard against the nomination of Dr.
Henry Foster as Surgeon General. Next week the Christian Coalition and many
of its G.O.P. allies will unveil their sequel to the Contract with America:
the Contract with the American Family. Meanwhile, presidential candidates
are dropping in on Reed for counsel. Bob Dole's attack on the morals of
Hollywood was the result of consultations with Reed. Lamar Alexander, who
last summer held that Washington should neither subsidize nor prohibit
abortion, began shifting his view to the right after calling on Reed, who
then rewarded the candidate by describing him as "pro-life." Says William
Lacy, chief strategist for Dole's presidential bid: "Without having
significant support of the Christian right a Republican cannot win the
nomination or the general election." Reed is so hot a commodity that the
presidential campaign of Senator Phil Gramm of Texas offered to hire him as
its political director, the No. 2 staff job. Reed declined. It would have
been a demotion.
As executive director of the Christian Coalition, Reed is master of a much
more powerful and effective machine than is almost any presidential
candidate. By mobilizing eager volunteers down to the precinct (and local
church) level and handing out 33 million voter guides--often in church
pews--prior to last November's election, the Coalition is credited with
providing the winning margin for perhaps half the Republicans' 52-seat gain
in the House and a sizable portion of their nine-seat pickup in the Senate.
As a result, Ralph Reed is the man to see among G.O.P. lawmakers and
candidates for President. He stands astride the most potent faction in the
ascendant Republican Party. And with that power comes scrutiny and
criticism--from both the left and the right.
Behind Reed's cool blue eyes is steel. He is no innocent, talking tough
politics like the late Lee Atwater, a Republican operative of decidedly
secular mien. Last week Time got a close look at Reed and his organization
by traveling with him as he moved from Washington to New Hampshire and back.
He also provided a rare insider's glimpse at the real source of his
clout--the satellite-Internet-and-fax machine juggernaut employed by his
soldiers in the field.
Reed got this far by refocusing the Coalition on more than its basic agenda
of support for school prayer and opposition to abortion. It now works hand
in hand with the congressional Republican leaders and defines its purpose
loosely as "pro-family," which encompasses such mainstream issues as
deregulation and welfare reform. Acting then as a team player for the
G.O.P., the Coalition poured more than $1 million into the effort to pass
the Contract with America, including $250,000 for advertising, direct mail
and phone-bank work on behalf of the balanced-budget amendment--not
generally considered a scriptural imperative.
Now it's payback time. With the backing of prominent Republicans, the
Coalition next week will unveil its Contract with the American Family. Its
centerpiece, Time has learned, will be a proposed constitutional amendment
to protect "religious expression"--including a voluntary moment of silence
in schools, the use of religious symbols in public places and religious
invocations at public ceremonies. The bill would also expend $30 million to
fund an experiment in "school choice" in low-income regions; it would end
federal funding for such allegedly liberal efforts as the National Endowment
for the Arts, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the Department of
Education. In addition, the bill would probably include a federal ban on D&C
abortion procedures, which are used primarily in late-term abortions.
That the religious right could virtually dictate an important part of the
congressional agenda was unimaginable when the modern movement began in
1979. Back then, such conservatives as Paul Weyrich and Richard Viguerie
helped Falwell set up the Moral Majority. Their idea was to mobilize white
Evangelicals in the South and border states--many of whom had once supported
Jimmy Carter--against Washington's perceived intrusiveness. The Moral
Majority gained legitimacy, along with White House access, during the Reagan
years, but Falwell neglected to build real foundations at the grass roots.
So other groups were formed to fill the void, including Pat Robertson's
Freedom Councils. After Robertson ran unsuccessfully for the Republican
nomination for President in 1988, he converted his huge mailing lists into
the Christian Coalition and turned its operations over to Reed, then 27.
Reed sought to build the organization from the bottom up, making it largely
community-based, with activists much more involved in local issues. The
strategy has paid off. A survey by Campaigns & Elections magazine reported
last year that the Christian right exercised considerable control of
Republican parties in 13 states and completely dominated 18 others.
"The future of America is not [shaped] by who sits in the Oval Office but by
who sits in the principal's office," Reed told a group of activists in New
Hampshire last week. If the Coalition grows large enough, he advised, "then
everyone running for President will be pro-family; they'll have to come to
us." And so they have. The latest closed-door meeting of Coalition state
directors held in Washington in January drew both Dole and Gramm.
Furthermore, Coalition lobbyists sat among the select group of outsiders who
met regularly in Newt Gingrich's suite to coordinate the campaign to pass
the Contract with America.
Reed gets that kind of respect because he can deliver. With a fat war
chest and so many activists on call at all times, the Coalition can stir
a flurry of telephone calls and letters to lawmakers on almost any subject
within a matter of hours. To train its operatives, the Coalition runs
leadership schools, instructing supporters to form rapid-response networks,
connected by phone, fax and modem, in hundreds of counties, located in every
state in the Union. They update their information on the third Tuesday of
every month by attending satellite downlinks of "Christian Coalition Live,"
an hour of specific instruction on political organizing at which Reed
himself plays host. The broadcasts feature target lists of lawmakers to
contact regarding specific legislation. More than 200 conservative
evangelical churches serve as the meeting places for these high-tech
gatherings; the Coalition hopes to have 1,000 downlink sites by year's end.
Such meetings are not confined to the Bible Belt. Last month, for instance,
20 activists braved the rain to attend a showing at the Bethel Full Gospel
Church in Rochester, New York, and that was just one of 12 downlink sites in
what is supposed to be a liberal state. The meeting began when the county
chairman, Tom Jessop, bowed his head and said, "Let's come together in
prayer." But he moved quickly to such topics as how to become a Republican
committeeman and how to "blitz E-mail." Indeed, the group was nothing like
the Coalition members uncharitably described by the Washington Post in
February 1993 as "poor, uneducated and easy to command." Jessop, 54, is a
senior project engineer at Eastman Kodak. His deputy Rahm Goswami, 44, is a
research chemist with a Ph.D. A similar meeting a month earlier in
Charleston, South Carolina, was attended by several lawyers and
physicians--all in business suits. Another misconception is that the
Coalition is exclusively white. Two blacks came to the meeting in Rochester.
"I don't look at it as a color thing," explained Angie Whitlock, one of the
African Americans there. "I don't know why more of us don't join up." The
chief reason is the blind eye the Christian right turned to segregation in
the 1960s.
Despite its increasing sophistication and secularization, the movement
remains insular, distrustful and eager to impose what it sees as a
Bible-backed morality on the public at large. Reed was brought up short by
his own people when he agreed not to press for a school-prayer amendment
earlier this year in the House and instead backed the Contract with such
fervor. To keep peace, he gave what is now called his "litmus-test" speech,
in which he warned that a presidential candidate who did not oppose
abortions would not be acceptable to conservative Christians. Meanwhile, a
fund-raising letter in March stated in unusually harsh terms that the
Coalition was committed to saying "NO to condom distribution in the schools,
NO to taxpayer funding of abortion, NO to sex-education classes in the
public schools that promote promiscuity [and] NO to homosexual adoptions and
government-sanctioned gay marriages." Some of its officials insist that
solely the Coalition knows the way, the truth and the right. During a
training session in Oklahoma City this spring, Fred Sellers, the state
chairman, said, "Only we can restore this nation. Only the people here
today, and people like us, can turn this around ... only Christian believers
doing the work ... in the thick of battle."
Still, Reed is actively trying to cast a "wider net." After the litmus-test
speech, he tacked back a bit and said he had issued no ultimatums. And he
wants to attract both blacks and Jews to the fold, which is almost entirely
made up of white evangelical Protestants and traditionalist Catholics. He is
even toying with the idea of starting a Jewish auxiliary, an idea that has a
long way to go.
Robertson is the founder and guiding spirit of the Coalition. But he has
ceded operational control to his young protege. "I am, if I can use that
exalted term, moving more into the elder statesman's role," the 65-year-old
Robertson told Time. That transition began when Reed and Robertson sat next
to each other at a dinner honoring George Bush's Inauguration. At first,
Reed wondered whether the broadcasting tycoon seriously wanted a
brass-knuckled pol like himself to run the operation. Reed, then a doctoral
candidate in American history at the University of Georgia, was a veteran of
Republican headquarters in Washington and the rough-and-tumble campaigns of
Jack Kemp and Jesse Helms. But Robertson, the son of a Virginia politician,
readily allowed Reed to suffuse the Coalition with a new professionalism.
Reed continues to work unstintingly to plane the rougher edges off
Robertson's image. In the meantime, his own book, Politically Incorrect, is
considered the manifesto of the movement. With Robertson's approval, he is
working on a second.
Ralph Reed Jr. was born in 1961, the son of a Navy physician from
Portsmouth, Virginia. Nicknamed ''Buddy,'' Reed displayed his nature from
the beginning. Asked what her son always aspired to be, his mother Marcy
told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, "In charge." Raised a Methodist, Reed
was an indifferent Christian--though an avid Republican--through his early
college years. He wrote a rabid column while at the University of Georgia,
taking hawkish positions on gun control and the nuclear freeze. (He resigned
from the paper after a reader charged him with plagiarism.) As a student, he
ran school campaigns and gained a reputation as a player of dirty tricks.
However, in 1983, shortly before he became the director of a national G.O.P.
student committee, Reed not only gave up booze and cigarettes but also found
God. At about that time, he had seen a politician he admired--a "pro-family,
traditional values" type--drinking and fooling around with someone he was
not married to. The sight disgusted Reed and helped lead him toward being
"born again." He apologized to one of his political victims, picked up a
phone book, found an evangelical church and started attending. "Since 1983,
I haven't been involved with anybody in politics for whom I bear a grudge in
my heart,'' Reed told Time. "Which doesn't mean I don't want to win. It
means a religious person in politics understands that he's working for goals
more universal than taking the next election."
As Reed made his rounds among the nation's most important politicians last
week, he looked for all the world like a junior executive, neatly attired in
a crisp, dark suit and starched button-down shirt, dashing, luggage in hand,
from taxicab to commercial aircraft. At times, he thumbed through his
history book of the moment, Doris Kearns Goodwin's new biography of Franklin
and Eleanor Roosevelt. But there was nothing mundane--or junior level--about
his encounters. In addition to New Hampshire's Governor, he met with Senator
Dan Coats to discuss the Foster nomination and a new bill on school prayer
and choice. He then socialized with a collection of the G.O.P.'s movers and
shakers in New Hampshire. Through it all he kept in constant touch with his
headquarters in Virginia and his Washington office by way of a cellular
phone.
At the state capitol in Concord, New Hampshire, the local press was all over
him after his senate appearance. But he was not universally applauded. State
senator Burt Cohen, a Democrat, left the chamber in a huff even before Reed
spoke. "He [Reed] represents a dangerous trend in this country. We should
keep religion and politics separate," Cohen said later. Another state
senator, Jeanne Shaheen, a Democratic stalwart, heard Reed out. But she also
was offended. She said, "Anytime you paint yourself as having the right
answers because of a direct connection to God, that's very dangerous."
Theirs was a minority view in the heavily conservative and Republican
senate. Reed was welcomed at a lunch at the estate of a conservative and
politically active couple, Ortwin and Pat Krueger. Neither is a member of
the Christian Coalition yet, but they love politics and professed to like
the Coalition's approach. So with an eye toward helping the Coalition raise
money, they happily played host to 10 current and potential contributors at
their huge, old house, overlooking a pool, a tennis court and 130 rural
acres. George Fellendorf, a semiretired teacher of the deaf who is the state
chapter's unpaid chairman, told Reed that after 18 months of organizing, it
was time for the state association to get a full-time, paid executive
director. "We're at a turning point," he said. Looking around at his
affluent welcome, Reed could not help agreeing. That night he attended
another, larger gathering of activists--this one involving 250 people--and
expanded on his optimism. The Coalition had just registered its 1,600th
county chapter, he said. "We're the McDonald's of American politics."
Maintaining that momentum will take patience, and, Reed admitted, "some
degree of retraining of me." Though he says he dislikes the word control,
dominance of the G.O.P. remains the movement's ultimate objective. But by
grabbing for too much of it too soon, he could squander the incredible gains
he has made.
He must also fend off insinuations from liberal adversaries that his
movement's antigovernment stands contributed to the poisonous rhetoric
spewed by violent extremists like those responsible for the Oklahoma City
bombing. "We must forsake violence of the fist, the tongue and the heart,"
he said last week, quoting Martin Luther King Jr. "The Christian Coalition
provides an avenue to bring alienated citizens into mainstream political
action. Were we not here, the ranks of the disaffected would be much
larger." He adds correctly that the Coalition, despite its conservative
agenda, does not coordinate with the National Rifle Association, nor does it
lobby on gun issues. Nevertheless, at the grass-roots level, there is a
large overlap among Coalition supporters and anti-gun-control activists.
Reed tries to keep his eye on the long term. "I'm asking myself where do I
want this movement located in the political system in the year 2025," he
told Time. "If I fall for the temptation of acting as a power broker within
a given political party, then 25 or 30 years from now I will be where the
labor unions are today."
But to this point, Reed has steered the Coalition solely into the arms of
the Republicans. It is supposed to be nonpartisan, but it clearly plays
favorites. Former Coalition staff members hold key positions in the
campaigns of Dole,
Alexander, Gramm and Pat Buchanan. None work for Bill Clinton. Democrats are
concerned the Coalition may be eating into their dwindling base. Voters are
looking for more morality in their politics, and the Coalition is providing
it. "Thanks in great part to people like Ralph Reed, they have become a
mainstream constituency," said Democratic consultant Mark McKinnon, who is
based in Austin, Texas. "I have been advising my clients that we get
ourselves in a lot of trouble by attacking the religious right. Instead of
inciting them, we ought to try to co-opt them. We need to show we have a
backbone of morality in this party."
Still, acclaim for Reed and his Coalition is far from universal, even within
the Republican Party. Senator Arlen Specter launched his campaign for
President with a broadside against Reed and his alleged "intolerance."
Congresswoman Marge Roukema, a moderate Republican from New Jersey, said
flatly, "Ralph Reed and the Christian Coalition will create a lot of trouble
for the Republican Party." And, in fact, if Reed succeeds too well at moving
the G.O.P. in his direction, he stands to alienate the
middle-of-the-roaders, whose votes, while notably absent in Republican
primaries, tend to decide general elections.
Meanwhile, powerful figures on the religious right feel the G.O.P. isn't
right enough for them, posing a danger for Reed if he continues to
accommodate himself to the party's moderate elements. In March, James
Dobson, head of the powerful Focus on Family organization, fired off open
letters to G.O.P. chairman Haley Barbour, complaining bitterly about the
lack of immediate payoff from the November election. Fearful of compromising
with "anti--family" elements, Dobson argued that it was time to fold the
all-inviting "big tent" of the Republican Party. In contrast, Reed argues
for a more inclusive Coalition and struggles to appear more secular (in New
Hampshire last week, for example, he declined an invitation to give the
invocation before the senate because he did not want TV cameras to record
him in prayer). There are two faces to the religious right, says Michael
Hudson, executive director of the liberal People for the American Way, "the
moderate face that meets Bob Dole and the grass-roots state chapters that
are still bashing gays. Ralph Reed is trying to create a big tent in the
religious right, but can he sell political expediency to his grass- roots
movement?"
Other conservatives play down the importance of Reed. Says Gary Bauer, a
former Dobson associate and now head of the Family Research Council, a
conservative think tank: "I don't think the movement depends on Bauer or
Dobson or Reed or any of the names the press focuses on. I see this as a
permanent force in American government and politics, and I think it will
have a lot to say about public policy for the foreseeable future."
At the moment, however, Reed is the most attractive name attached to the
movement--and he shows no sign of resting. "You have to organize, organize,
organize, and build and build, and train and train, so that there is a
permanent, vibrant structure of which people can be part." He speaks about
forming a cadre of at least 10 workers in each of the country's roughly
175,000 political precincts, raising his budget to between $50 million and
$100 million and gaining access to 100,000 churches, compared with his
current reach of 60,000 churches. "If we do all that," he told an audience
last week, "we will be larger and more effective and will reach more people
than the Republican and Democratic parties combined."
"The Christians are close to winning the whole war; they might do it by
'96," says Frank Luntz, the pollster behind the Contract with America. "By
playing hardball they may win everything, but hardball also risks losing
everything." Reed frankly admits, "We're on the very threshold of having to
make that kind of decision. It's fraught with both opportunity and hazard.
If we make this decision the wrong way, 20 years from now we're going to
look back and regret it."
Whatever Reed decides--to press for control of the G.O.P. now or to rise
above partisanship for a while--the religious right is moving toward center
stage in American secular life. Henceforth, Reed told Time, "issues are
going to have a moral quotient." The Christian Coalition, says Arthur Kropp
of People for the American Way, "won't be content to be background music."
They will want the oomph of the big band. And a choirboy will lead them.
With reporting by Laurence I. Barrett, traveling with Ralph Reed, and
Richard N. Ostling/New York
Copyright Time Inc. All rights reserved.
|
1083.56 | | TINCUP::BITTROLFF | Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems | Mon May 15 1995 15:07 | 20 |
| .53 CSC32::J_OPPELT "Whatever happened to ADDATA?"
Joe,
I would agree with Dr. Dobson on most of the points you mentioned. I would agree
that where schools have ruled non-disruptive private prayers, or the reading of
the bible during study hall time they have gone too far. The contents of the
valedictorian speech are up to the valedictorian. (I do, however, object to the
school delivering an invocation).
I am more cautious about the moment of silence for two reasons. First, why? What
is the benefit of a moment of silence. The kids that are thoughtful enough to
use it in the first place don't need it, and those that might benefit won't use
it. Second, I see this as an attempt to get a foot in the door by those that
would mandate school prayer.
Joe, if you and I can find some common ground it should be possible for almost
anyone!
Steve
|
1083.57 | impressive! | DECALP::GUTZWILLER | happiness- U want what U have | Mon May 15 1995 15:44 | 38 |
| re .55,
thank you john for entering this whole article!
> With a fat war
> chest and so many activists on call at all times, the Coalition can stir
> a flurry of telephone calls and letters to lawmakers on almost any subject
> within a matter of hours.
>
> Despite its increasing sophistication and secularization, the movement
> remains insular, distrustful and eager to impose what it sees as a
> Bible-backed morality on the public at large.
>
> "You have to organize, organize,
> organize, and build and build, and train and train, so that there is a
> permanent, vibrant structure of which people can be part." He speaks about
> forming a cadre of at least 10 workers in each of the country's roughly
> 175,000 political precincts, raising his budget to between $50 million and
> $100 million and gaining access to 100,000 churches, compared with his
> current reach of 60,000 churches. "If we do all that," he told an audience
> last week, "we will be larger and more effective and will reach more people
> than the Republican and Democratic parties combined."
i have to say this, there's certainly no lack of ambition or direction as
to how to accumulate influence and power!
i can't help reading this as ralph reed being on a power-trip and that the
man runs a very high risk, over the next years, of forsaking long-term goals
for short-term gain, and possibly of tripping over his own legs and taking
the movement down with him...
but, to be safe, i'd certainly start now in building up an opposing pressure
group....! how about naming it "the christian conscience"! :-)
andreas.
|
1083.58 | How do I reach the Christian Coalition? | APACHE::MYERS | | Mon May 22 1995 13:29 | 14 |
|
Some people have suggested I have a mistaken understanding of the
Christian Coalition, although after seeing Ralph Reed on Meet the Press
I don't think I do. To better understand the Christian Coalition and to
speak from a more informed frame of reference, I would like to get a
printed copy of the "Contract for the American Family," and any other
information they'd care to send me. Could someone please provide me
with a contact or mailing address for the Christian Coalition? Feel
free to send me mail if posting it here is against conference or
company policy.
Thanks,
Eric
|
1083.59 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Unquenchable fire | Mon May 22 1995 15:17 | 10 |
| .58 Eric,
Darn. I know have their phone number and address somewhere. I'll
let you know if locate them.
I do not think your assessment is very far askew.
Shalom,
Richard
|
1083.60 | Contract With American Family | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | You-Had-Forty-Years!!! | Mon May 22 1995 15:48 | 1085 |
1083.61 | A lot to digest | APACHE::MYERS | | Wed May 24 1995 19:56 | 28 |
|
Thanks for posting the Contract with the American Family, Jack. I
noticed that it's just over the 100 line limit thought. :^)
I haven't finished reading through it yet, but so far I have about as
many margin notes as there is text to the document! To their credit
they do a good job with their end notes. However, when I read their end
notes, or better yet looked up some of the references, it caused me to
raise my eyebrows more than once. Some (many) of the abuses cited were
over turned in court, thus giving a false impression of legally
sanctioned anti-religious activities. Some (many) citations reference
conservative authors commentaries of government and medical reports
rather than the reports themselves, casting a cloud on the objectivity
of the reference. Some (many) citations refer to the comments made by
certain senators as entered into the congressional record, as if a
senators estimations and professions are the same as documented proof
rather than simply hearsay.
While I feel that the Christian Coalitions main objective if to infuse
conservative Christian ideals into public schools and government, they
do raise some issues that I agree with. I'm just not so keen or their
solutions. By and large I think their Religious Equality Act is an
attempt for them to foist their agenda into the public arena; and their
tax and economic suggestions range from absurd to short sighted.
I can't wait to get home and read more... :^)
Eric
|
1083.62 | "Dear Christian Friend..." | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Tue Aug 22 1995 02:37 | 13 |
| Well, surprise, surprise!!
I find my name has somehow gotten on the mailing list of Pat Robertson's
Christian Coalition!
In this "Monitored Delivery" initial mailing with "Immediate Action Requested,"
I received my "New 1995 Congressional Scorecard (Contract with America
edition)," my "1996 Pre-election Presidential Ballot for Christian Voters,"
and the anticipated solicitation for my financial support.
Shalom,
Richard
|
1083.63 | | OUTSRC::HEISER | watchman on the wall | Tue Aug 22 1995 17:37 | 6 |
| I've never donated a dime to him and I don't appreciate organizations
that pester you for money all the time. I still receive his scorecards
despite sending them a letter explaining why I will not support him
financially.
Mike
|
1083.64 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Tue Aug 22 1995 22:07 | 11 |
| A quote from their literature:
"Or will America's Christian voters stay home on Election Day, as
they did in 1992 when Bill Clinton was elected..."
-------------------------------------
(Their underline, not mine.) I found their propaganda to be laced with
innuendo and tacit assumption.
Richard
|
1083.65 | | CSC32::J_OPPELT | Wanna see my scar? | Tue Aug 22 1995 22:11 | 1 |
| Many *DID* leave their brains at home! :^)
|
1083.66 | | OUTSRC::HEISER | watchman on the wall | Tue Aug 22 1995 22:14 | 7 |
| I don't believe they stayed home. It's obvious that Perot dividing
conservatives allowed Clinton to win. this isn't unique in history
either. Teddy Roosevelt and his Bull Moose Party had the same effect
in the Woodrow Wilson election, who had only 45% support of the voters.
Some speculate the Federal Reserve was behind this.
Mike
|
1083.67 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Tue Aug 22 1995 22:19 | 5 |
| I don't believe Christians stayed home either. Pat Robertson et al
apparently believe otherwise.
Richard
|
1083.68 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Fri Aug 25 1995 14:19 | 21 |
| Richard:
I made the error of subscribing to National Review a few years ago.
I think it is a fairly good magazine but I decided not to renew. Well,
because I subscibed, I was and still am inundated with mail from Dole,
Buchanan, Gram, etc. for president, I am now a member of the Republican
National Committee, I receive numerous surveys, mail from the NRA,
letters from the police officers in jail from the Rodney King
incident, the Christian Coalition, the list goes on!
I started at first by doing a few surveys and then the mail came in.
Later, I started doing the surveys opposite to what they wanted. Now I
just throw them out.
I believe communication should be open with all constituents but I
resent having my name given out to these organizations by National
Review...so I don't subscribe anymore. Hey, I believe in being up
front here...I lean more toward the Republican ideology but I can still
get annoyed with those people!
-Jack
|
1083.69 | | OUTSRC::HEISER | watchman on the wall | Fri Aug 25 1995 18:19 | 1 |
| Wow, Jack! I thought my mail was bad! ;-)
|
1083.70 | | TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff | Spoon! | Tue Aug 29 1995 14:12 | 31 |
| Speaking of the CC,
They publish a list of 'threats' to religious freedom on a monthly basis.
Some I agree are ridiculous, some I believe are correct and the CC is way
off base, some I am on the fence about. What I would like to do here is to
get your comments on some of what they say, so that I can understand it
from both sides. My discussion will start in the next note.
To start:
Supreme Court Denies Texaco Franchise Hearing
(Washington, D.C.) - The U.S. Supreme Court has denied an appeal in the
case of a former Texaco franchise owner who wanted to close his service
stations on the Sabbath. Barry Davis, who leased three gas stations from
Texaco near Salem, Ore., violated a federal court order when he began
closing his stations from dusk Friday to dusk Saturday in January 1993.
Texaco sought the action after Davis informed the company in October 1992
that he would begin the policy at the start of the new year. Lowell Elsen,
of Texaco's corporate legal department, said his company tried to work
things out with Davis. "We worked diligently to find some middle ground
whereby Mr. Davis would exercise his personal religious preference while
the stations would remain open and customers could be served," Elsen said.
"We even offered to operate the stations for him, free of charge, on his
Sabbath." Davis says Texaco made no such offer but he wouldn't have taken
it anyway. "Deuteronomy 5:14 says you shall not work on the Sabbath and
neither shall your son or daughter or your manservant or maidservant,"
Davis said. "I could not let the stations remain open without violating the
spirit of that commandment." Write to Barry Davis at 850 22nd Ave., N.W.,
Salem OR 97304. (Facts on file, Christian Coalition national headquarters.)
|
1083.71 | | TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff | Spoon! | Tue Aug 29 1995 14:16 | 9 |
| Most franchises of this sort stipulate the hours the store must remain open, I
am assuming that Texaco did. From my viewpoint Texaco is not persecuting him
due to religion, but more probably due to breach of contract. Do you folks
agree that this is an attack on religious rights, or should Mr. Davis have
persued a career that allowed him to follow his own conscience?
Thanks for your comments,
Steve
|
1083.72 | | APACHE::MYERS | He literally meant it figuratively | Tue Aug 29 1995 15:10 | 19 |
| It is not spelled out in the article, but it is implied that Mr. Davis
was a franchise owner for a period of time before he became Sabbath
sensitive, if you will. Apparently, Texaco and Mr. Davis had agreed
to the terms of the franchise contract and that Mr. Davis, at some
point in the future, chose to violate those terms. It seems to me that
in this circumstance Mr. Davis must chose to honor his agreement with
Texaco or sell his franchise in order to comply with his religious
convictions.
What if he owned a TGIFriday's franchise, and at some point decided to
stop serving liquor due to religious conviction? What if he owned a
McDonald's franchise and at some point decided to stop serving beef due
to a religious conviction?
If the shoe were on the other foot, that is the franchising agent
(Texaco in this case) changed the rules in a way that violated Mr.
Davis' religious convictions, then I would be on his side.
Eric
|
1083.73 | | BIGQ::SILVA | Diablo | Wed Aug 30 1995 16:53 | 3 |
|
I agree with Eric!
|
1083.74 | | TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff | Spoon! | Thu Aug 31 1995 19:06 | 24 |
| I agree with Eric also, this does not seem like an attack on religious
freedom to me, either.
How about this one?
(Williamsburg, Va.) - When Julia Oxrieder put her home on the market for
sale she took out an ad in the local newspaper. Close proximity to grocery
store, public transportation and churches," Oxrieder's ad stated. The
Newport News Daily Press informed Oxrieder that state laws against housing
discrimination would not allow them to publish her classified ad unless the
reference to churches was removed. Oxrieder agreed to the change, but she
wrote letters to the editor of the Daily Press and other area papers.
Virginia State Delegate George W. Grayson, D-Williamsburg, called the law
"just crazy" and recently proposed a revision to state housing law that
would "allow citizens and their agents to mention proximity to churches,
synagogues, temples, mosques, and other places of worship in describing
property to be sold or rented." In a mid-July letter to state Legislative
Services Director E.M. Miller, Grayson summarized Oxrieder's predicament.
"This is just political correctness run amok," he told the Richmond
Times-Dispatch. To thank Grayson for his stand on this issue, write to Hon.
George W. Grayson, House of Delegates of Virginia, State Capitol, Richmond,
Va. 23219 or phone (804)786- 6609. (Richmond Times-Dispatch July 14, Facts
On file, Christian Coalition national headquarters.)
|
1083.75 | | APACHE::MYERS | He literally meant it figuratively | Thu Aug 31 1995 19:37 | 23 |
|
I've got to agree with Delegate Grayson; if there is such a law
barring real estate ads that mention the proximity of the property
to churches, it's "just crazy." If someone want's to describe
their house as being in an "close to Bible believing Christian
church," or "within walking distance to abortion clinic and adult
book store" they should be allowed to do so. Refusing to *sell* on
anyone other than a Christian or abortion advocate is a different
story, however.
I a bit incredulous as to whether there is such a law or not. I
suspect that there is merely a mistake made by an uninformed clerk
or editorial associate. More times than not I have seen this to be
the case when one claims religious oppression. They may have been
repressed, but not legally. This doesn't stop paranoids on either
side of the issue from grandstanding, of course. Perhaps this is
the case here.
Eric
P.S. From time to time churches (the buildings) are sold. I guess
the news is spread by word-of-mouth, since there is a ban on
publishing its availability. :^)
|
1083.76 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Fri Sep 01 1995 00:43 | 6 |
| .74
Sounds like a misunderstanding to me.
Richard
|
1083.77 | | CSC32::J_OPPELT | Wanna see my scar? | Sat Sep 02 1995 16:39 | 15 |
| re: gas station franchise owner
If he wants to remain part of the franchise and benefit from
being a franchise, then he should remain open on Saturday. (Or
accept Texaco's offer to run it for him on Saturday.)
If closing on Saturday is so important, he should become an
independent dealer. (Or get out of the business altogether.)
re: "near churches"
Either it's a misunderstanding, or political correctness
run amok. Denying the advertisement of that one feature
is discriminatory. I wonder if she would have been allowed
to advertise that it's "not near any churches at all".
|
1083.78 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Sun Sep 03 1995 14:25 | 12 |
| I don't think it's a misunderstanding.
It's part of a so-called fair housing law.
The theory is that the mere mention of "church" in an ad for _housing_ will
discourage some people from investigating the property.
I'll see if I can get the text of the law.
/john
p.s.: re selling churches -- the law doesn't apply; they aren't "housing".
|
1083.79 | with other words it may make more sense | LGP30::FLEISCHER | without vision the people perish (DTN 297-5780, MRO2-3/E8) | Tue Sep 05 1995 11:24 | 21 |
| re Note 1083.78 by COVERT::COVERT:
> The theory is that the mere mention of "church" in an ad for _housing_ will
> discourage some people from investigating the property.
It seems a bit ludicrous, since places called "churches" are
so common in most places in the U.S. But imagine an ad that
said "near several synagogues" or "adjacent to the Muslim
temple" -- an ad like that could be trying to hint at the
religious and/or racial makeup of the neighborhood.
If there is a need to restrict such language, then the
cleanest way is simply to restrict mention of religious
facilities of all kinds. (Otherwise you'll have regulators
and/or the courts making distinctions of a kind that you
probably don't want them making.)
I don't know the law, or its origins, well enough to know if
this explains it.
Bob
|
1083.80 | | TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff | Spoon! | Wed Sep 06 1995 00:30 | 28 |
| I'm not sure that not allowing the mention of churches is an attack on religious freedom, but I do
believe that it is ludicrous.
Moderators, should I create a new topic for each of these articles? At any rate, here is this weeks,
it is a little trickier I think...
School Principal Bans Pro-Life Student Posters
(Orlando, Fla.) - School officials at Palm Coast High School have banned a student pro-life club
from advertising club activities with posters. School policy permits student organizations such as
the Environmental Club and the Ebony Society to advertise activities and viewpoints through posters
and morning announcements. But when Teens for Life put up posters, teachers tore them down. High
school principal Larry Hunsinger told the Daytona Beach News-Journal: "I felt that in the interests
of safety and well-being of the students and faculty, it was necessary for the posters to come
down." Teens for Life, a student pro-life group, filed a lawsuit against the Flagler County School
Board alleging violations of their First Amendment right to free speech. Liberty Counsel, a
religious liberties law firm, filed the suit in U.S. District Court Aug. 8. Mathew Staver, Liberty
Counsel president, said federal law states that if a school permits any non-curriculum related club
to meet on campus, the school cannot discriminate against any other student club based on religious
or political speech. Teens for Life is seeking temporary injunctive relief and eventually a ruling
declaring the school policies unconstitutional. "School officials cannot censor student speech
simply because they disagree with that speech," Staver said. "Abortion is perhaps the major
political debate of the decade, and students have the right to form and express opinions about
abortion." Write to the Flagler County School Board, P.O. Box 755, Bunnell, Fla. 32110 or call (904)
437-7526. (Daytona Beach News-Journal, Aug. 9, Facts on file, Christian Coalition national
headquarters.)
|
1083.81 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Sep 06 1995 13:07 | 39 |
| Here is Steve Bittrolf's note, reposted for people who like to keep their
Notes windows sized to 80 columns:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure that not allowing the mention of churches is an attack on
religious freedom, but I do believe that it is ludicrous.
Moderators, should I create a new topic for each of these articles? At any
rate, here is this weeks, it is a little trickier I think...
School Principal Bans Pro-Life Student Posters
(Orlando, Fla.) - School officials at Palm Coast High School have banned a
student pro-life club from advertising club activities with posters.
School policy permits student organizations such as the Environmental Club
and the Ebony Society to advertise activities and viewpoints through
posters and morning announcements. But when Teens for Life put up posters,
teachers tore them down. High school principal Larry Hunsinger told the
Daytona Beach News-Journal: "I felt that in the interests of safety and
well-being of the students and faculty, it was necessary for the posters to
come down." Teens for Life, a student pro-life group, filed a lawsuit
against the Flagler County School Board alleging violations of their First
Amendment right to free speech. Liberty Counsel, a religious liberties law
firm, filed the suit in U.S. District Court Aug. 8. Mathew Staver, Liberty
Counsel president, said federal law states that if a school permits any
non-curriculum related club to meet on campus, the school cannot
discriminate against any other student club based on religious or
political speech. Teens for Life is seeking temporary injunctive relief and
eventually a ruling declaring the school policies unconstitutional.
"School officials cannot censor student speech simply because they
disagree with that speech," Staver said. "Abortion is perhaps the major
political debate of the decade, and students have the right to form and
express opinions about abortion." Write to the Flagler County School
Board, P.O. Box 755, Bunnell, Fla. 32110 or call (904) 437-7526. (Daytona
Beach News-Journal, Aug. 9, Facts on file, Christian Coalition national
headquarters.)
|
1083.82 | | TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff | Spoon! | Wed Sep 06 1995 13:38 | 6 |
| John,
Thanks for reposting. I've got a new notes reader and I haven't learned yet how
to get it to post properly. I didn't even realize I had overflowed...
Steve
|
1083.83 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Wed Sep 06 1995 13:42 | 6 |
| Thanks for posting that. I would assume that the Unitarian
Universalist Church would support the right of the students since one
of their tenets is the right to a democratic process and the support of
the first ammendment.
-Jack
|
1083.84 | what? | TNPUBS::PAINTER | Planet Crayon | Wed Sep 06 1995 16:10 | 9 |
|
Re.83
Jack,
I read the article a few times, and saw no mention that the UU church
was involved. Or did I miss something here?
Cindy
|
1083.85 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Wed Sep 06 1995 16:22 | 11 |
| I would support the students' rights of free speech and of assembly.
Of course, I would have to support the same rights for:
the Pro-Child_Pro-Family_Pro-Choice Club
I wonder if the Christian Coalition would be so eager to defend the rights
of such a group.
Richard
|
1083.86 | Oxymoron | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Wed Sep 06 1995 17:25 | 3 |
| ZZ the Pro-Child_Pro-Family_Pro-Choice Club
I would definitely support their rights...misguided though they be!
|
1083.87 | | APACHE::MYERS | He literally meant it figuratively | Wed Sep 06 1995 20:22 | 10 |
|
As long as other student interest groups are allowed to post their club
activities, the pro-life club should not be disallowed from doing so as
well. The school may, however, set guidelines regarding the language
and content of the posters. For example, the Ebony Society may be
prohibited from calling is detractors 'racists' and the Teens for Life
Club may not be allowed to call its detractors 'baby killers.' At least
not on posters displayed in school.
Eric
|
1083.88 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Wed Sep 06 1995 20:49 | 1 |
| I think that would be equitable!
|
1083.89 | | TINCUP::inwo.cxo.dec.com::Bittrolff | Spoon! | Thu Sep 07 1995 00:45 | 8 |
| .87
Yes, this is the piece that is left out of the article. I would agree that
these students have the right to post like anyone else. On the other hand I
have seen some very graphic anti-abortion posters, and I could understand
these being taken down.
Steve
|
1083.90 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Thu Sep 07 1995 20:09 | 13 |
| Note 1083.80
>Moderators, should I create a new topic for each of these articles? At any
>rate, here is this weeks, it is a little trickier I think...
You may, of course, create a new topic for each. But in light of the source,
I think it's appropriate to continue in this string:
>(Daytona Beach News-Journal, Aug. 9, Facts on file, Christian Coalition
>national headquarters.) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Richard
|
1083.91 | HRCF "Open Letter" to Christian Coalition conf. | ravel.amt.tay1.dec.com::SCHULER | Greg, DTN 227-4165 | Tue Sep 12 1995 12:27 | 68 |
| *****************************************************************
PRESS RELEASE PRESS RELEASE PRESS RELEASE
THE HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN FUND
The Nation's Largest Lesbian and Gay Equal Rights Organization
*****************************************************************
To contact the HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN FUND, please call us at
(202)628-4160, fax us at (202) 347-5323 or write to us at PO Box
1396 Washington, DC 20013.
*****************************************************************
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
Friday, September 8, 1995
HEAD OF NATIONAL GAY POLITICAL GROUP DELIVERS "OPEN LETTER"
ADDRESS AT CHRISTIAN COALITION CONFERENCE
-- Elizabeth Birch Calls for New Ethic of Respect and Decency --
Washington -- Some members of Pat Robertson's Christian
Coalition today joined with progressive clergy and other
supporters of lesbian and gay equal rights to hear a speech by
Human Rights Campaign Fund Executive Director Elizabeth Birch
during the group's annual "Road to Victory" conference at the
Washington Hilton. More than 300 people crowded into a ballroom
to hear the head of the largest national lesbian and gay
organization deliver an address in the form of an "open letter"
to Christian Coalition members. The speech was held next to a
Gramm for President luncheon, and just down the hall from the
conference's main ballroom where most of the 1996 GOP
presidential hopefuls were addressing the two-day gathering.
In the 20-minute address during the lunch break of the
conference, Birch called for a new ethic in the public dialog.
"We may work for different outcomes..., but we can engage in an
ethic of basic respect and decency."
Birch s speech was delivered despite being rebuffed by a
Coalition spokesman after formally requesting to speak at the
Conference. I have had the opportunity to meet thousands of
individuals from all walks of life who have grave concerns about
misconceptions put forth by representatives of the Christian
Coalition when addressing the hopes, dreams and aspirations of
lesbian and gay Americans and their families, Birch wrote in a
July 5 letter to Christian Coalition Executive Director Ralph
Reed. I believe that it is time to address our differences face
to face, she wrote.
When the formal request was turned down, Birch decided to reserve
a room in the same hotel that would host the conference, to
deliver her message directly to Christian Coalition members.
"Although your podium was not available to me, I am grateful for
those who have come today and will give me the 'benefit of the
doubt' and be willing to consider what I have to say."
The Human Rights Campaign Fund (HRCF), the nation's largest
lesbian and gay political organization, works to end
discrimination, secure equal rights, and protect the health and
safety of all Americans. With a national staff, and volunteers
and members throughout the country, HRCF lobbies the federal
government on lesbian, gay, and AIDS issues; educates the general
public; participates in election campaigns; organizes volunteers;
and provides expertise and training at the state and local level.
(Text of letter in next reply...)
|
1083.92 | Text of Birch's "Open Letter" | ravel.amt.tay1.dec.com::SCHULER | Greg, DTN 227-4165 | Tue Sep 12 1995 12:28 | 271 |
| *****************************************************************
September 8, 1995
Open Letter to Christian Coalition Members
Dear Members of the Christian Coalition:
An Open Letter was not my first choice as a way of reaching you.
I would have preferred speaking to all of you directly, and in a
setting where you would be most comfortable.
That was my motivation, some weeks ago, when I asked your
executive director, Ralph Reed, for the opportunity to address
the Christian Coalition's "Road to Victory" Conference. It is
still my motivation today. And it is supported by a single,
strong belief that the time has come for us to speak to each
other rather than past each other.
It took Mr. Reed very little time to reject my request. Perhaps
he misunderstood my motivation. But I can assure you that what
has driven my request is this: I believe in the power of the word
and the value of honest communication. During my years of work
as a litigator at a major corporation, I was often amazed at what
simple, fresh and truthful conversation could accomplish. And
what is true in the corporate setting is also true, I'm
convinced, in our communities. If we could learn to speak and
listen to each other with integrity, the consequences might shock
us.
Although your podium was not available to me, I am grateful for
those who have come today and will give me "the benefit of the
doubt" and be willing to consider what I have to say. I will be
pleased if you are able to hear me without prejudging either the
message or the messenger. And I will be hopeful, most of all, if
you respond by joining me in finding new ways to speak with
honesty not only about one another, but also to one another.
If I am confident in anything at all, it is this: our communities
have more in common than we care to imagine. This is not to deny
the many differences. But out of our sheer humanity comes some
common ground.
Although the stereotype would have us believe otherwise, there
are many conservative Americans within the nation's gay and
lesbian communities.
What's more, there are hundreds of thousands of Christians among
us -- Christians of all traditions, including those represented
in the Christian Coalition.
And, like it or not, we are part of your family. And you are
part of our community. We are neighbors and colleagues, business
associates and friends. More intimately still, you are fathers
of sons who are gay and mothers of daughters who are lesbians. I
know many of your children very, very well. I work with them. I
worry with them. And I rejoice that they are part of our
community.
Part of what I want you to know is that many of your children who
are gay and lesbian are gifted and strong. Some are famous; most
of them are not. But many are heroic in the way they have
conquered barriers to their own self-respect and the courage with
which they've set out to serve a higher good. All were created
by God. And you have every right to be proud of each of them.
I begin by noting the worthiness of the gays and lesbians in your
family and our community for a reason: it's hard to communicate
with people we do not respect. And the character of prejudice,
of stereotype, of demagoguery, is to tear down the respect others
might otherwise enjoy in public, even the respect they would hold
for themselves in private. By taking away respectability,
rhetorically as well as legally, we justify the belief that they
are not quite human, not quite worthy, not quite deserving of our
time, or our attention, or our concern.
And that is, sadly, what many of your children and colleagues and
neighbors who are gay and lesbian have feared is the intent of
the Christian Coalition. If it were true, of course, it would be
not only regrettable, but terribly hypocritical; it would not be
worthy of the true ideals and values based in love at the core of
what we call "Christian."
The reason I have launched this conversation is to ask that you
join me in a common demonstration that this is not true. I make
my appeal as an individual, as Elizabeth Birch, and also as the
executive director of the Human Rights Campaign Fund, America's
largest policy organization for gay men and lesbian women.
This is such a basic appeal -- to human communication and common
decency -- that I do not even know how to distinguish between
what is personal and what is professional. But my appeal is
sincere. I am convinced that if we cannot find ways to respect
one another as human beings, and therefore to respect one
another's rights, we will do great damage not only to each other,
but also to those we say we represent.
I recognize that it is not easy for us to speak charitably to
each other. I have read fundraising letters in which people like
me are assigned labels which summon up the ugliest of
dehumanizing stereotypes. Anonymous writers have hidden under
the title of "Concerned Christian" to condemn me with the fires
of God and to call on all of you to deny me an equal opportunity
to participate in the whole range of American life. I have
heard of political agendas calling not merely for the defeat of
those I represent, but for our eradication.
Such expressions of hatred do not, can not, beget a spirit of
trust. Nor do they pass the test of either truthfulness or
courage. They bear false witness in boldface type. And I
believe that they must embarrass those who, like me, heard of
another gospel -- even the simple gospel taught me as a child in
Sunday School.
I would not ask that you, as members of a Christian group, or as
supporters of a conservative political cause, set aside either
your basic beliefs or your historic commitments. The churches
which many of you represent -- Baptist, for example, and
Pentecostal -- were also the churches I attended as a young
woman. In those days, I heard sermons about justice and sang
songs about forgiveness. My greatest hope is not that you will
give up your faith, but that it will work among all of us.
Neither of us should forsake our fundamental convictions. But we
could hold those convictions with a humility that allows room for
the lives of others; neither of us may be the sole possessors of
truth on every given issue. And we could express our convictions
in words that are, if not affectionate, and if not even kind,
then at least decent, civil, humane. We need not demonize each
other simply because we disagree.
I came to my task in the campaign for human rights with this
conviction: if we, in the name of civil rights, slander you, we
have failed our own ideals, as surely as any Christian who
slanders us in the name of God has failed the ideals of
Scripture.
Some of those who asked me to serve at HRCF may believe that I am
naive, that it is foolish to appeal to "the enemy" for common
decency, let alone to ask for trusting conversations. But those
who wonder about my ideals may not know my childhood.
I am an American, born on American soil, but raised in Canada
throughout my formative years. Even from a distance -- perhaps
especially from a distance -- the American ideal and the
centuries-old American dream captured my imagination and my
spirit. When I saw America, I saw responsible freedom being
exercised everywhere from the picket line to the voting booth.
When I learned of the values rooted at the heart of the American
Spirit, I felt undying hope. That hope is also rooted in the
Judeo-Christian tradition of this nation. From my vantage point
on the Canadian prairies, the promise of America tugged at my
soul. I could fight it, but I could not win, and America quite
literally won my heart.
More remarkable still, all this happened during my adolescence,
when we are most subject to peer pressure, and in the 1960's
during the height of Canadian nationalism. It was, in those
days, as daring to publicly acknowledge your love for America as
it was to come out of the closet as a lesbian.
But I could not hide my affection for my homeland, even though I
saw its obvious failings and shortcomings. I believed then, and
I believe no less staunchly today, that no other nation in the
world offers all its citizens such promises of fairness and
equality, principles that are equally reflected in the Christian
tradition and the American Constitution.
What surprised me when I first became active in America's gay and
lesbian communities was that, in this idealism about America, I
was not alone. Gay men were beaten with baseball bats, and they
went off to find justice, confident that the American ideal would
protect them. Lesbians were fired from their jobs, and they said
to one another, "We'll be protected by the law." So keen was
confidence in the American hope that it took the gay and lesbian
communities decades to conclude, regretfully, that civil rights
are as likely to be withheld as granted, despite the
Constitution; and that true believers are as likely to engage in
cruel discrimination as in compassion, even in the name of
Christ.
Many of us in this community have a long history with the church.
Gay men I have loved deeply and lesbians I've known well have
talked long into the night about their love for God and for God's
church. For some of them, the church had provided the one
message of hope they knew as children. The promise of good news
was seized gladly by adolescents who did not understand why they
were different, or what that difference would mean.
For some, the deepest agony of life is not that they risk
physical abuse or that they will never gain their civil rights,
but that they have felt the judgment of an institution on which
they staked their lives: the church. What they long for most is
what they once believed was theirs as a birthright: the knowledge
that they are God's children, and that they can come home.
And it is not only those of us who are gay or lesbian who have
suffered on the doorstep of some congregations. Parents, fearing
what others at church might whisper, choose to deny the reality
that their son is gay or their daughter is a lesbian. Brothers
and sisters suffer an unhealthy, and unwarranted, and
un-Christian shame. They bear a burden that cripples their
faith, based on a fear that cripples us all.
This means, I think, that we are still a long way from realizing
the ideal of America as a land of hope and promise, from
achieving the goal of religion as a healing force that unites us,
from discovering that human beings are, simply by virtue of being
human beings, deserving of respect and common decency.
And so, I have come today -- in person, bearing this letter, and
in writing to those who will only receive it -- to make three
simple, sincere appeals to those of you who are members of the
Christian Coalition.
The first appeal is this: please make integrity a watchword for
the campaigns you launch. We all struggle to be people of
integrity, especially when we campaign for funds. But the fact
that we are tempted by money is no excuse. We need to commit
ourselves to a higher moral ground.
I do not know when the first direct-mail letter was issued in
your name that defamed gay men and abused gay women, that
described us as less than human and certainly unworthy of trust.
Neither do I know when people discovered that the richest
financial return came from letters that depicted gays and
lesbians with intentionally dishonest images. But I do know --
and I must believe that you know too -- that this is dishonest,
this is wrong.
I can hardly imagine that a money machine is being operated in
your name, spinning out exaggerations as if they were truths, and
that you do not see it. But perhaps you do not. In which case,
I ask that you hear my second appeal: I ask that, as individuals,
you talk to those of us who are gay or lesbian, rather than
succumb to the temptation to either avoid us at all cost, as if
we are not a part of your community, or to rant at us, as if we
are not worthy of quiet conversation.
We are, all of us and those we represent, human beings. As
Americans, you will have your political candidates; we will have
ours. But we could, both of us, ask that our candidates speak
the truth to establish their right to leadership, rather than
abuse the truth in the interest of one evening's headline. We
may work for different outcomes in the elections, but we can
engage in an ethic of basic respect and decency.
Finally, I appeal to you as people who passionately uphold the
value of the family. You have brothers and sons who have not
heard a word of family affection since the day they summoned the
courage to tell the simple truth. You have sisters and daughters
who have given up believing that you mean it when you say, "The
family is the basic unit of society," or even, "God loves you,
and so do I."
Above all the other hopes with which I've come to you hovers this
one: that some member of the Christian Coalition will call some
member of the Human Rights Campaign Fund and say, "It's been a
long time, son" -- or, "I'm missing you, my daughter" -- and
before the conversation ends, someone will hear the heartfelt
words, "Come home. Let's talk to each other."
In that hope, I appeal to each of you.
Sincerely,
Elizabeth Birch
------- end -------
|
1083.93 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Tue Sep 12 1995 13:42 | 26 |
| I have just read the entire letter and feel there are many good points
within it. Children still need love and understanding and the
stability and support in order to make them solid people and perhaps
followers of Jesus Christ; honoring Christ in all their actions and
thoughts.
Z We may work for different outcomes in the elections, but we can
Z engage in an ethic of basic respect and decency.
A few years back when gays and lesbians became more open about who they
were, I was immediately labeled a "homophobe". I explained that I
don't fear anybody, I just don't believe sex between two of the same
gender was a sanctified act before God. Nope, I was a homophobe
commented this individual.
I find the use of the word "Homophobe" to be a condescending term when
it is used improperly and I am offended by it. The term of phobia
connotes a fear stemming from the mind, an unnecessary fear. I find
this label that was given to me first, insulting and irresponsible.
There. I have just treated my fellow man with dignity by speaking the
truth. Labels are just an uppity way of dragging somebody down to make
ones self feel gratified...just like many other labels used today
totally out of context.
-Jack
|
1083.94 | Latest mailing received | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Thu Sep 21 1995 22:06 | 19 |
| I received another mailing from the Christian Coalition yesterday.
Included was my 1996 PRE-ELECTION PRESIDENTIAL BALLOT & SURVEY [their
caps]. I filled it out within the 48 hour window as requested,
blew a first-class postage stamp, and stuck it back in the mail.
I declined the invitation to join the 1,600,000 [their number]
members and supporters of the Christian Coalition and making a
monetary contribution to the cause.
I was also urged to call President Clinton at (202)456-1414 and
remind him that the 1994 mid-term elections represented a clear
rejection of his radical social agenda, which includes "gays in the
military, condoms for schoolchildren, taxpayer funding for abortion,
and his Big Government tax-and-spend policies." The propaganda
sought me to urge Clinton "NOT to follow the advice of his wife,
Hillary Rodham Clinton, to continue doing more of the same." I
declined all these directives as well.
Richard
|
1083.95 | | CSC32::M_EVANS | nothing's going to bring him back | Thu Sep 21 1995 23:37 | 4 |
| Richard, you mean they don't believe a man should listen to his life
partner? I am shocked!
meg
|
1083.96 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Fri Sep 22 1995 01:42 | 9 |
| The literature from Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition also contained
this plea:
Please Help Us Make America Great Again!
What I'd like to know is, just what era are we talking about here, Pat?
Richard
|
1083.97 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Friend will you be ready? | Fri Sep 22 1995 02:50 | 9 |
|
I usually just toss their stuff in the trash.
Jim
|
1083.98 | | OUTSRC::HEISER | watchman on the wall | Fri Sep 22 1995 06:06 | 1 |
| How many take their spouse's advice on how to do their job at DEC?
|
1083.99 | | HURON::MYERS | He literally meant it figuratively | Fri Sep 22 1995 12:01 | 6 |
|
If she/he has expertise in your area of concern, one would be a fool
not to solicit the advice of their life partner. My wife has been
a force in my career, if not my specific job at the time.
Eric
|
1083.100 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Fri Sep 22 1995 13:32 | 1 |
| Righty Snarf!
|
1083.101 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Fri Sep 22 1995 13:44 | 27 |
| ZZ If she/he has expertise in your area of concern, one would be a
ZZ fool not to solicit the advice of their life partner.
Which again begs the question, would I offer advice to my wife on how
to operate a classroom? Would I ask Michele how to put a SCSI adapter
on a DSSI based system?
Let's get to brass tacks here. Evita is good at making speeches and
Evita has been an advocate for poor women and children. But the fact
is that Evita was a lawyer who was married to a governor. Because of
this she was graciously invited to be on the Board of Directors for a
few corporations...strictly because she was in a position to pull
strings. She made about ten court appearances in her whole career as
an attorney.
In regards to her credentials. Yes, Evita did in fact graduate in the
Ivy league and I give her credit for that. However, let's dispell
another myth right now. Evita DID NOT graduate at the top of her class
as we are lead to believe. It is rumoured that she was at the top and
Bill was ranked third. Yale Law School at that time DID NOT rank
students. When they finished a course, their report card said "P" or
"F"...that is all! The Clinton's spent far more time that year at the
democatic convention than they did in Connecticut.
Plain and simple! Now, back to reality.
-Jack
|
1083.102 | | APACHE::MYERS | He literally meant it figuratively | Fri Sep 22 1995 14:10 | 12 |
|
> Now, back to reality.
Appropriate conclusion, since the body of your note was sheer escapism.
My two pet peeves are spreading unsupported rumors as facts, and the
use of name mutilation when referring to individuals with whom one
disagrees (ie Evita, Gingrinch, Bubba). You did both. I think it's a
sign of ignorance, and I think you're above that sort of thing. Am I
wrong?
Eric
|
1083.103 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Fri Sep 22 1995 15:17 | 19 |
| Z My two pet peeves are spreading unsupported rumors as facts, and
Z the use of name mutilation when referring to individuals with whom one
Z disagrees (ie Evita, Gingrinch, Bubba). You did both. I think it's
Z a sign of ignorance, and I think you're above that sort of thing. Am
Z I wrong?
Well, let's get the hard stuff out of the way first. Yes, it perhaps
can be construed as a sign of ignorance. I use that pet name for her
because the democrats in the White House had this crazy notion that
they are capable of saving the world. So out of respect for you all,
I will not pick on Hillary any more.
Secondly, the information I have brought forth is factual. It was
given by a class mate of Hillarys...a class mate who very much likes
the Clintons and went through college with them. This is in rgds. to
the info on Yale. As far as her background as an attorney, I stand by
what I said. That information is available for everybody to see.
-Jack
|
1083.104 | | APACHE::MYERS | He literally meant it figuratively | Fri Sep 22 1995 18:07 | 34 |
|
Jack,
Perhaps I spoke too sharply. The point is *I* find the use of
condescending caricature names for people one dislikes is a juvenile
thing to do. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with the
first lady's politics, however, as long as it is based on reality
and not rumor or innuendo. To that extent, feel free to pick on
anyone you like.
The factoids I had a problem with were:
o Mrs. Clinton slept/married her way to prominence, through no
merit of here own.
o The implication that since she is not a trial lawyer she
must be inferior, or in some way a token lawyer.
o That she falsely claimed to graduate at the top of her
class, and the further implication that she and her husband
falsified their academic record. (I've never heard them the
claim of graduating at the top of class at Yale. So maybe I live
under a rock or something.)
The whole point is Hillary is an intelligent, politically savvy
individual. To that extent she is certainly more qualified to
counsel her husband on political issues than your wife is to
counsel you on SCSI standards. If Michele were a storage engineer,
you would be foolish not to accept her advice. I simply rejected
the blanket assertion that one spouse has no place advising the
other in work related matters, as implied in .98
Eric
|
1083.105 | | CSC32::M_EVANS | nothing's going to bring him back | Fri Sep 22 1995 19:21 | 8 |
| Oh,
I thought Jack was talking about a former first lady in Argentina.
I guess the blonde must be coming out again. You mean he was talking
about the current first lady of the US?
meg
|
1083.106 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Fri Sep 22 1995 20:33 | 1 |
| Yes...but it was a joke! Not funny to some of course!
|
1083.107 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Sat Sep 23 1995 18:32 | 4 |
| Yet, from the same source comes this request (9.1688):
> Finally, would you PLEASE get off this Rush Limbaugh kick.
|
1083.108 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Mon Sep 25 1995 13:33 | 15 |
| Richard:
By your logic, every skeptic in the world must be a Unitarian
Universalist, every segregationist must be in the Klan, every white
seperatist must be a Nazi, every pro choice individual must hat it when
an abortion doesn't happen.
Am I making my point here? I seem to recall the names Tricky Dick,
George Herbert Hoover Bush and the like bantered about over the years.
Sorry...I don't like Hillary Clinton. I brought up Rush because of
your persistence that everybody who dislikes the Clintons must be a
Rush Limbaugh listener.
-Jack
|
1083.109 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Ps. 85.10 | Mon Sep 25 1995 16:29 | 26 |
| All I'm saying in 1083.107 is that it seems it just depends on whose bull
is being gored.
However, I'm so fascinated by your reaction, I've decided to save it.
Richard
================================================================================
Note 1083.108 The Christian Coalition. 108 of 108
MKOTS3::JMARTIN "I press on toward the goal" 15 lines 25-SEP-1995 10:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard:
By your logic, every skeptic in the world must be a Unitarian
Universalist, every segregationist must be in the Klan, every white
seperatist must be a Nazi, every pro choice individual must hat it when
an abortion doesn't happen.
Am I making my point here? I seem to recall the names Tricky Dick,
George Herbert Hoover Bush and the like bantered about over the years.
Sorry...I don't like Hillary Clinton. I brought up Rush because of
your persistence that everybody who dislikes the Clintons must be a
Rush Limbaugh listener.
-Jack
|
1083.110 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Friend will you be ready? | Mon Sep 25 1995 16:33 | 12 |
|
As it turns out I received the mailing about which Richard spoke .94, just
this weekend. I opened it, looked at it and read it a bit, and tossed it.
My candidate was listed therein, but I would prefer not to encourage the
Christian Coalition to continue to contact me. While conservative in
my beliefs, I've never liked being attached to any "organized" political
effort.
Jim
|
1083.111 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | I press on toward the goal | Mon Sep 25 1995 17:52 | 7 |
| Actually, I tend to be that way also. Organizations can always turn
bad and rather than drop out, I just tend to avoid them.
Yes Richard, I know. I tend to categorize people...in other words, my
entry that you saved is an indictment on myself. So noted!! :-)
-Jack
|
1083.112 | I must have missed something... | TNPUBS::PAINTER | Planet Crayon | Mon Sep 25 1995 19:41 | 6 |
|
Re.101
Evita? What/who are you talking about, Jack? Eva Peron?
Cindy
|
1083.113 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Psalm 85.10 | Sun Mar 10 1996 01:22 | 23 |
| [Excerpts from my most recent mailing from the Christian Coalition:]
Dear Christian Friend,
.....
I know from you past activities that you are well-informed on
current events, and you understand the importance of getting Christians
involved in the political process.
.....
You see, I started Christian Coalition in 1989 because I saw a
need for an organization that could speak out against the ANTI-CHRISTIAN
BIGOTRY we see every day in the news media, in the political debate and
throughout popular culture.
And I saw that many of the interest groups on the Left (including
MILITANT HOMOSEXUALS, RADICAL FEMINISTS, and Big Government liberals) all
have powerful organizations advancing their point of view in government.
.....
|
1083.114 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Psalm 85.10 | Wed Jun 26 1996 20:36 | 20 |
| 1981
"The Constitution of the United States is a marvelous document for
self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the
document into the hands of of non-Christian people and atheist people,
they can use it to destroy the very foundations of society. And that's
what's happening."
-- Pat Robertson, Founder
1990
"I honestly believe that in my lifetime we will see a country once
again [I wonder what previous era he had in mind here] governed by
Christians....and Christian values."
-- Ralph Reed, Executive Director
Christian Coalition
|
1083.115 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Wed Jun 26 1996 20:41 | 6 |
| Well, I agree with you on that one. Ralph needs to get a better grip
on history.
As an opinion, I would say we are heading more towards apostacy!
-Jack
|
1083.116 | | ACISS2::LEECH | | Fri Jun 28 1996 14:04 | 51 |
| >1981
> "The Constitution of the United States is a marvelous document for
>self-government by Christian people. But the minute you turn the
>document into the hands of of non-Christian people and atheist people,
>they can use it to destroy the very foundations of society. And that's
>what's happening."
> -- Pat Robertson, Founder
Althought the intent behing the Constitution was not specific to
Christianity in so many words, at this time, it was assumed by default
(when the % of Christians was over 95%, there was little thought to
it being designed for anyone else - though certainly protections for
non-Christians were built in with the ratification of the BoR).
I've posted many quotes from the FF in this forum, several of which
specifically state that the Constitution would not serve any but a
moral and religious people - that it would fail in the hands of any
other. Pat is not too far off base, here, though his use of Christian
is somewhat deceiving, though not exactly untrue. It is also quite
divisive in today's climate, unfortunately.
>1990
> "I honestly believe that in my lifetime we will see a country once
>again [I wonder what previous era he had in mind here] governed by
>Christians....and Christian values."
> -- Ralph Reed, Executive Director
> Christian Coalition
Althought I respect the Christian Coalition for their moral stands, and
their willingness to fight for our historical values, I do not always
agree with their tactics. Mr. Reed seems to be a bit overly optimistic
about the future, and is indeed wrong, IMO. We will not move towards a
Christian-run nation. In fact, I believe it will be this very push
that creates a hostile environment for Christians in America. We are
already characterized as bigots, within an ignorant media, and this is
only the stepping stone for the next leap of demonization.
I consider this inevitable, perhaps it is part of God's plan to
separate "the wheat from the chaff" within Christ's church. Though not
an enjoyable thing, persecution, to one of faith, can do wonders for a
person spiritually - something that can be witnessed in other countries
where Christianity is outlawed.
-steve
|
1083.117 | | APACHE::MYERS | He literally meant it figuratively | Fri Jun 28 1996 15:01 | 28 |
| > In fact, I believe it will be this very push that creates a hostile
> environment for Christians in America. We are already characterized as
> bigots, within an ignorant media, and this is only the stepping stone
> for the next leap of demonization.
There exists a certain "victim mentality" among some ultra-conservative
to fringe Christian groups and individuals, often, but not always,
preoccupied with end-time theology. They see themselves as the only
real Christians treat with all others with suspicion or disdain. They
see society's non-capitulation to their way of thinking as creating a
hostile environment; and society's condemnation of intolerance and
extremism as demonizing them.
The foundations of our Constitution are based on respect for humanity
and the raising of the value of the individual human above the value of
nobility, inherited authority, and military might. To suggest that
non-Christians (i.e. Jews, Muslims...) are undermining the "very
foundations of society" is self-serving poppy-cock. I suggest that the
spiritual beliefs of the Founding Fathers, if they could be transported
through time to today, would be very much alien to the political agendas
of much of the religious-right.
(I didn't say they would all be McGovern liberals, so don't suggest
that that was my implication.)
Eric
|
1083.118 | inherent worth and dignity of every individual | GLRMAI::MCCAULEY | | Fri Jun 28 1996 18:52 | 11 |
| The minister of the UU congregation in Andover has authored a book on
the founding fathers. His thesis is the extent to which Unitarianism
and Unitarian Principles influenced the founding of our country. The
Unitarian Universalist principle of the inherent worth and dignity of
every individual is so fundemental to the Declaration of Independence
and later to the Constitution.
I just wish that Unitarian Universalism was as successful today in
checking a narrow mean spirited definition of Christianity as it was in
the 18th and 19th century in offering an alternative to Calvinism.
|
1083.119 | | MKOTS3::JMARTIN | Madison...5'2'' 95 lbs. | Fri Jun 28 1996 19:44 | 5 |
| Z I just wish that Unitarian Universalism was as successful today in
Z checking a narrow mean spirited definition of Christianity as it
Z was in the 18th and 19th century in offering an alternative to Calvinism.
What alternative was that?
|
1083.120 | | THOLIN::TBAKER | Flawed To Perfection | Fri Jun 28 1996 21:32 | 6 |
| > What alternative was that?
My guess is a Christianity based on the spirit of the Jesus
as opposed to rigid obedience to one interpretation of some book.
Tom
|
1083.121 | | CSC32::J_CHRISTIE | Psalm 85.10 | Sat Jun 29 1996 21:25 | 6 |
| Many of the so-called founding fathers (none of whom were my father) were
deists. Thomas Jefferson (who edited the Jefferson Bible) would be
considered a Unitarian.
Richard
|