Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Both my mother and Father were at one time Roman Catholics.  I was told
    that I was baptised in the Roman Catholic church.  
    
    As I child, the first church I attended was the Congregational(UCC)
    church.  I attended from the until I was about 17.  I became a member
    of the church around 16.  
    
    From 17-34 I was a secular humanist and did not attend any church.
    
    For the last nine years I have been attending the Unitarian
    Universalist Church and occasionally some of the local Protestant
    Churches.  As a theology student at Andover Newton, I am learning much
    about Protestant Christianity.
    
    In October, I had a wonderful opportunity to visit Geneva.  I started
    most day by visiting the Notre Dame Cathedral which was just done the
    street from my Hotel.  I lit a candle and prayed there daily for the
    week.
    
    As a woman I am becoming more and more aware that rational religion is
    not enough.  Spirituality is what we see, hear, touch, and feel.  We
    feel it from the depth of our being.
    
    Somehow I think the Catholic Church has preserved the mystery of
    Religion perhaps a little better than the protestant churches.  Somehow
    I could feel that mystery walking into the Notre Dame Cathedral and
    lighting a simple candle.
    
    As a Universalist, Catholicism rings closer to my beliefs.  God,
    Spirit, and salvation is truly available to everyone.  I don't feel the 
    shadow of Predestination which I associate with Calvanism there.
    
    On the other hand, the Catholic Church is the largest most powerful
    discriminator against women in the Western World.  The Catholic
    Church's stance on Birth Control and Family planning is arcane.  The
    Catholic churches practice of annulment rather than divorce, seems
    legalistic and hippocritical.
    
    That is where my question comes from.  Is the Catholic Church the body
    of people who consider themselves Catholic, The large magestic
    churches, or the Hierarchy of Ordained Men.  
    
    I am most interested in understanding how Catholics themselves view the
    Church and the issues facing the church.
    
                                       Patricia
    

    	Patricia --
    
    	You ought to read some stuff (or listen to some tapes) by Scott
    	Hahn.

    For those who are not aware, there is also a notesfile entitled
    CATHOLIC-THEOLOGY.
    
    To add it to your notebook type
    
    ADD ENTRY HASTUR::CATHOLIC-THEOLOGY <CR>
    
    or tap KP7
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    I was out at noon today and overheard a lot of conversations about
    which towns/states had been granted dispensation to by the appropriate
    RC clergy to eat corned beef today.  Today being St. Patricks day as
    well as a Friday in Lent.

    When I was growing up, the RCs were not supposed to eat meat on any
    Friday.  Now it's just Fridays in Lent?

    Where did the tradition of meatless Fridays come from?  I can make a
    guess at why no meat, but why Friday?

    .4
    
    Debbie,
    
    	Actually, there was a very good reason behind instituting the policy
    you're asking about at one time.  But I think I'll allow John, Bob, Joe
    or Eric the opportunity to explain it.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

re Note 1064.4 by ADISSW::HAECK:

>     Where did the tradition of meatless Fridays come from?  I can make a
>     guess at why no meat, but why Friday?
  
        I'm pretty sure the Friday part came because Jesus died on
        the cross on Friday.

        I don't remember why no meat, specifically.

        Bob

Well, I thought we'd come up with the answers to .4 here.

I'm going to call the local Diocese and see what I can find out, Debby.
I don't trust the accuracy of my recollection on the matter.

I do remember when a fish emblem on the Friday squares of wall calendars
was as common as depictions of the phase of the moon.

Shalom,
Richard

Re Debbie Haeck:

>Where did the tradition of meatless Fridays come from?

From the example of Christ (Mt 6:16; Mk 2:20, 9:29) and the Apostles (Acts
13:2, 14:23, 2 Cor 2:27), the earliest Christians practiced both fast from
all food and abstinence from meat.

The Friday abstinence in commemoration of the Passion and death of Our Lord
was common in both the Eastern and Western Church in the first centuries.
Originally this included abstinence from all animal products, and strict
Eastern observance still requires this on both Wednesdays and Fridays.

The Western Church moved the Wednesday fast to Saturday around 400, and
the Roman Catholics eliminated Saturday in 1917.

Until 1979, the Book of Common Prayer called for abstinence "on all the
Fridays in the Year, except Christmas Day, and The Epiphany, or any Friday
which may intervene between these Feasts" and a few other days and called for
fasting on Good Friday and Ash Wednesday.  The current Book of Common Prayer
calls for "special acts of discipline and self-denial" which could include
meat abstinence or complete fasting or other special acts on "Ash Wednesday
and the other weekdays of Lent and of Holy Week, except the feast of the
Annunciation; on Good Friday and all other Fridays of the year, in
commemoration of the Lord's crucifixion, except for Fridays in the Christmas
and Easter seasons, and any Feasts of our Lord".

This is about the same as the current Roman Catholic rule; however the Roman
Catholics are specifically directed to meat abstinence on the Fridays in
Lent except for the Annunciation and the Feast of St. Joseph.  Most Roman
Catholics are probably unaware that they are supposed to do some act of
self-denial (which could be meat abstinence as one example) on all other
Fridays of the year which are not major Feasts ("Solemnities").

I must admit that I simply "cop-out" and observe meatless Fridays all year
rather than discerning and establishing some other "special act of discipline
and self-denial".

Debbie, has your pastor recommended to your parish any other appropriate
ways other than meat abstinence for faithful Episcopalians to observe the
rubrics on page 17?

/john

    re: .8 (covert)

Debbie, has your pastor recommended to your parish any other appropriate
ways other than meat abstinence for faithful Episcopalians to observe the
rubrics on page 17?

    John - to answer your specific question, no, my priest has not
    recommended any specific way to observe this discipline.  

    She has noted the tradition of the discipline.  She has shared her own
    choices of observing it.  She has made available Lenten readings.  She
    has instituted an adult discussion group which meets weekly during Lent. 
    She always does that.  Some years it happens, some years it fizzles.

    Meat abstinence in particular has not been mentioned, other than as a
    historical kind of comment as we prepared for our "Fat Tuesday" pancake
    supper.

I spoke with the local Vicar General yesterday.  He really didn't add any
insight as to why meat was selected to be abstained from.  He speculated that
perhaps meat was even more of a luxury at one time.  I had heard that the
historical root of the ordinance was to give a boost an ailing fishing
industry.  But this, I realize now, was probably simply speculation, too.

Shalom,
Richard

Richard,

Fish was permitted because the Greek word for fish (ICHTHUS) forms the
first letters of the phrase "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour".

Debbie,

I'm not talking about Lent; I'm talking about the requirement to observe
all Fridays throughout the year, in accordance with the rubrics on p.17.

/john

    John - the section you refer to is the calendar.  I have never heard it
    refered to as part of the rubrics.  The section, as I read it, lists
    the days that warrent observation and when observed, how to observe
    them.

    	I always thought that it (abstaining from meat) was because
    	meat used to be a luxury, and fish a poor-man's food.
    
    	Today the economies of the world have changed.  Hot dogs and
    	burgers are the poor-man's food, and many seafood items are 
    	the luxury items.  I don't consider sitting down to a lobster 
    	dinner as any form of self-denial -- unless you don't like 
    	lobster, of course!

    
    Well it's still a form of self denial... financially, that is.

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.815

>    I was just curious.  Some denominations do place tradition on the same
>    plane of inspiration and infallibility as the Bible.
    
Oh?

Richard

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    My understanding is that Catholicism does this??
    
    Comments?

Rather than speculating, why don't you go read what they say themselves.

The Bible is the highest level of revelation; fully inspired and infallible.
Doctrine, which may never contradict scripture, can develop over time.

I'd suggest reading Dei Verbum (Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation) 
gopher://wiretap.Spies.COM:70/00/Library/Religion/Catholic/Vatican_II/Dei_verbum

/john

    >Doctrine, which may never contradict scripture, can develop over time.
    
    based on what BCV?  Also, what happens if doctrine does contradict the
    Bible?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

>    based on what BCV?

"The Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth."

>Also, what happens if doctrine does contradict the Bible?

It won't be accepted by the Church as doctrine.

/john