Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

re Note 9.1773 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

> I was around during the sixties and I don't recall the time being any worse
> than any other decade.  What's with the effort to demonize the period (along
> with baby-boomers)?

        I remember the sixties as the time in which the inadequacy of
        traditional secular values became obvious to a large number
        of people.  The sixties are the natural enemies of anyone who
        would argue to a return to traditional (American) secular
        values.

        (I used the word "inadequacy" to be very, very kind.)

        Bob

     >>       I remember the sixties as the time in which the inadequacy of
     >>       traditional secular values became obvious to a large number
     >>       of people.  The sixties are the natural enemies of anyone who
     >>       would argue to a return to traditional (American) secular
     >>       values.
    
    You have to realize that I was born in 1961 so I can only go by what is
    fed to me by the liberal media. :-)
    
    If I were to play a word association or phrase association game when I
    hear "1960's", these are the words or phrases I would hear!
    
    Woodstock
    Flower Power
    Heroin
    Free Sex
    Flower Children
    Vietnam
    Assassinations
    Great Society
    Bay of Pigs
    Cuban Missile Crisis
    Acid Rock
    Acid
    Protests
    Eastern Religions
    Apostacy
    
    And I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now.  I see the
    1960's as a time of revolution...a time when America was going through
    societal and cultural changes.  With those changes came the dirty
    laundry.  So Bob, could you explain what you meant by "inadequacy of
    traditional American values?  Thanks.
    
    -Jack

re Note 9.1775 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

>     And I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now.  I see the
>     1960's as a time of revolution...a time when America was going through
>     societal and cultural changes.  With those changes came the dirty
>     laundry.  So Bob, could you explain what you meant by "inadequacy of
>     traditional American values?  Thanks.
  
        My word-association list for the '60s would have been
        completely different:

        Social change
        The fight against racial and religious discrimination
        The fight against sexual discrimination
        Non-violent protest
        Protest against unjust/unwise warfare
        Thirst for justice
        Rejection of materialism
        Christian action
        Emergence of environmental awareness
        Moon landing
        Increased support for education
        Rejection of complacency in economic justice.

        Unfortunately there are some negative associations as well:

        Assassinations
        Riots

        What I mean by the "inadequacy of traditional American
        values" was the festering sores of racial, ethnic, and sexual
        discrimination, including the echoes of religious
        discrimination (not so faint as the decade opened -- to be a
        Catholic and aware of the 1960 presidential race leaves some
        permanent impressions).  I mean a nation where materialism is
        the ultimate driving force, where major military action is
        undertaken not for justice but to preserve our material
        position, where the administration assumed that lies in the
        pursuit of its military objectives were acceptable
        (presumably because of "higher principle" -- higher than
        truth?).  I mean a nation which claimed democratic principles
        but which (from many quarters) called public criticism
        unpatriotic and un-American.

        What I mean by the "inadequacy of traditional American
        values" is a secularized and nationalized Christianity which
        lost its moral authority, which would no longer deliver
        prophecy to the nation to address the nation's wrongs but
        only walked in step with the nation's secular agenda.

        I'd gladly go back -- and I'd get more involved this time (I
        was mostly on the sidelines).

  
>     You have to realize that I was born in 1961 so I can only go by what is
>     fed to me by the liberal media. :-)
  
        Your biggest mistake is to assume that the "media", dominated
        by large capitalistic corporations, has a "liberal" slant! 
        That is anything but the case, and certainly part of the
        proof is the negative slant put on the sixties.

        Bob

    You bring up some good points but does this mean that my list of words
    or phrases doesn't indicate there was dirty laundry in the sixties?
    
    -Jack

re .4

>     What I mean by the "inadequacy of traditional American
>     values" was the festering sores of racial, ethnic, and sexual
>     discrimination, 

jack, stands to reason that "festering sores" make for "dirty laundry"! :-)


andreas. (born_3_months_ahead_of_sixities)

    
    Woodstock
    Flower Power
    Heroin
    Free Sex
    Flower Children
    Vietnam
    Assassinations
    Great Society
    Bay of Pigs
    Cuban Missile Crisis
    Acid Rock
    Acid
    Protests
    Eastern Religions
    Apostacy
    
One would have to have a blind eye not to acknowledge most of these 
ingrediants are the fruits of a revolutionary period in our history.  

-Jack

re Note 1042.7 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

> One would have to have a blind eye not to acknowledge most of these 
> ingrediants are the fruits of a revolutionary period in our history.  
  
        One could just as easily, perhaps more easily, suggest that
        anything you cite was a fruit of what took place before the
        ripening of the fruit, rather than what took place while the
        fruit was ripening.

        Bob

    Bob:
    
    If you put 100 woodstock hippies in a room today, you would find alot
    of their perceptions in life have changed dramatically.  You would find
    their outlook on life to have been one of immaturity.  There were alot
    of social changes in the 60's...some for the good and others definitely
    for the bad.  
    
    -Jack

1036.13>  I consider the 1960s the dawn of secular humanism...a dismal exercise
1036.13>  in futility!!!
	
hey jack, would you like the "good old days" (pre-60s) back??    

the main achievements [imo] of the 60s, the sexual revolution (birth control
and redefinition of sexual morality), the fight against sexual, racial and
ideological discrimination, the rejection of materialism, communal living 
styles, the increased environmental awareness, are all, hopefully here to stay.

the repercussions [sp?] of the 60s revolution shook the entire industrialised 
world. with the student revolts in 68 in europe and a resurgance in the early 
80s. 

since then, much of what the 60s rebels demanded has become established. first 
and foremost (imo) laws on non-discrimination and the environment. here in 
europe, these concerns are even on the banners of the conservative parties.

i wouldn't want to turn the clock back.


andreas.

    	I wish I could go back to the 60's and make a few investments
    	with perfect hindsight!~

Note 1042.4

>        Unfortunately there are some negative associations as well:

>        Assassinations
>        Riots

Let us not forget that these occurrences are hardly exclusive to the 'sixties.
There have been assassinations attempts on Reagan, Bush, the Pope, and
Clinton.

And riots?  They're still happening.  And simmering when they're not.

Shalom,
Richard

Popular musicals from the 'sixties era:

	Jesus Christ, Superstar
	Godspell

Popular songs from the 'sixties era:

	Day by Day
	Oh Happy Day
	Amazing Graze [Judy Collins version]
	Spirit in the Sky
	Put Your Hand in the Hand (of the Man Who Stilled the Waters)
	Suzanne [the second verse]

Shalom,
Richard

    Yes, there were many songs from the sixties that glorified God.
    
    Turn Turn Turn (From Ecclesiastes)
    Come on People Now
    
    and others whose titles I can't think of.  Yet, consider the following.
    
    -Aqualung by Jethro Tull (Makes fun of Jesus and His followers)
    -The Doors, An American Prayer Album (Blasphemous at best)
    -Magical Mystery Tour (Propogated the use of drugs) (I still love the
     song though :-))
    -Sgt Pepper (Time Magazine says this album was drenched in drugs)
    -Jesus Christ - Superstar...Interesting story about this musical. 
     The part of Jesus was played by (names on the tip of my tongue), This
     person gave a great testimony on the Messianic Jewish program on 
     Christian radio.  He was a lead guitarist for Black Sabbath and was
     a frequesnt user of LSD, participated in open sex during the
     intermissions of his concerts, and had absolutely no regard for Jesus.
     This is just to say that these musicals, although had some good and 
     witty songs, were in no way meant to minister to society.  Incidently,
     the writers of Jesus Christ Superstar intentionally left out the
     ressurection.
    -Pink Floyd's song, Sheep...taken from the Book of Shadows, a n
     extension to the Satanic Bible.  Makes a mockery of the well known 
     Psalm 23.  Makes God out to be some ruthless butcher. 
    
    Music is never neutral, and it certainly wasn't during the sixties.  It
    was either used for evil or for good!
    
    -Jack

Re: .14 Jack

>    -Aqualung by Jethro Tull (Makes fun of Jesus and His followers)

Great album!  Ian Anderson certainly wasn't shy about making fun of modern
day Pharisees.  He had his own ideas about God and religion.  Some lyrics:

	People what have you done?
	You've locked Him in a golden cage
	Made Him bend to your religion
	And resurrected from the grave
	He is the God of nothing
	If that's all that you can see
	You are the God of everything
	He's inside you and me

	I don't believe you, you've got the whole damn thing all wrong
	He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays
	Well you can excommunicate me on my way to Sunday school
	And have all the bishops harmonize these lines

	And you press on God's waiter your last dime
	As he hands you the bill

Most of the other albums and songs you mentioned are among my favorites as
well, but some of them are from the seventies rather than the sixties.

				-- Bob

>Most of the other albums and songs you mentioned are among my favorites as
>well, but some of them are from the seventies rather than the sixties.

    	Actually, to me the 60's had two personalities, and the switch
    	occurred with Kennedy's assassination, or sometime thereafter.
    
    	"The Sixties" as they are being discussed here started during the
    	Johnson presidency, and ended with Nixon's resignation, in my
    	opinion.

Note 1042.14

>    Turn Turn Turn (From Ecclesiastes)

Music composed by Pete Seeger, a singer and activist I admire.

>    Come on People Now

Not specifically religious, but still a message that needs to be heard.
    
>    -Jesus Christ - Superstar...Interesting story about this musical. 
>     The part of Jesus was played by (names on the tip of my tongue),..

Teddy Neeley had the movie role.  I doubt if it's the same guy you're talking
about.

I never said the 'sixties were perfect, superior in some ways and no worse
than other decades.

Seems now the 'sixties have been reduced to just another reactionary
battle cry.

Shalom,
Richard

Note 1042.14

PS  We sometimes need to look deeper than the superficial meaning to the
    lyrics of some songs.  For example, "Sympathy for the Devil" by the
    Rolling Stones was hardly pro-Satan.  Don't remember if "Sympathy"
    was from the 'sixties or not.

    Anybody remember a reading recorded by Les Crane (maybe?) that seemed
    to portray the 'sixties but was actually close to 20 centuries old?

Re: .14 Jack

>    -Pink Floyd's song, Sheep...taken from the Book of Shadows, a n
>     extension to the Satanic Bible.  Makes a mockery of the well known 
>     Psalm 23.  Makes God out to be some ruthless butcher. 
    
I'd like to see documentation for your claim that the 23rd Psalm parody in
"Sheep" is taken from the Book of Shadows.

"Sheep" is from Pink Floyd's "Animals" album, which was released in 1977.
The album has a similar theme to George Orwell's book "Animal Farm":
people are symbolized as being Pigs, Dogs and Sheep.  In the song "Sheep",
the sheep overthrow their oppressors with a violent revolution:

	Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away
	Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air
	You'd better watch out
	There may be dogs about
	I've looked over Jordan and I have seen
	Things are not what they seem

	What do you get for pretending the danger's not real
	Meek and obedient you follow the leader
	Down well trodden corridors, into the valley of steel
	What a surprise!
	A look of terminal shock in your eyes
	Now things are really what they seem
	No, this is not a bad dream

		The lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
		He makes me down to lie
		Through pastures green he leadeth me the silent waters by
		With bright knives he releaseth my soul
		Me maketh me to hang on hooks in high places
		He coverteth me to lamb cutlets
		For lo, he hath great power, and great hunger
		When comes the day we lowly ones
		Through quiet reflection, and great dedication,
		Master the art of karate
		Lo, we shall rise up,
		And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water

	Bleating and babbling I fell on his neck with a scream
	Wave upon wave of demented avengers
	March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream

	Have you heard the news?
	The dogs are dead!
	You better stay home and do as you're told
	Get out of the road if you want to grow old

The song isn't saying that God is a butcher, but that the dogs and pigs
are butchers.

				-- Bob

    Bob:
    
    To be honest, I saw a special on TV regarding Rock Music.  The expert
    who brought in these little examples of backmasking, etc., brought in
    this example from the Animals album.  It was he who stated it came from
    the Book of Shadows.  I don't really see why he would have to lie, his
    examples were quite interesting. 
    
    I don't know.  I hear what you are saying and that may have been Pink's 
    intent.  However, if you read the first verse, The Lord Is My Shepherd,
    the rest of the passage uses the word, He, which refers to the person
    in question, namely, the Lord.  Unless the song states that the Lord is
    the animals, I don't see how the parody of Psalm 23 could be talking
    about the animals!
    
    -Jack

Re: .20 Jack

>   I don't really see why he would have to lie, 

Because he had an axe to grind?  There might be some similarity between
one or two lines in the song "Sheep" and something in the Book of Shadows,
but I doubt that the entire parody in "Sheep" is taken from the Book of
Shadows.
    
>    I don't know.  I hear what you are saying and that may have been Pink's 
>    intent.

Pink Floyd is the name of the band, not the name of a person.  It sounds
like you've made the same mistake as the record exec in the song "Have a
Cigar":

	I've always had a deep respect, I mean that quite sincerely
	The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think
	Oh by the way, which one's Pink?

>    However, if you read the first verse, The Lord Is My Shepherd,
>    the rest of the passage uses the word, He, which refers to the person
>    in question, namely, the Lord.  Unless the song states that the Lord is
>    the animals, I don't see how the parody of Psalm 23 could be talking
>    about the animals!
    
Since nowhere else in the album is there any reference to God, I doubt
very much that the word "lord" in the first verse is referring to God.  If
you look at the whole song in context you'll see that the "lord" is the
person(s) exploiting the sheep.  God does not eat sheep, but people do.

				-- Bob

>>    Pink Floyd is the name of the band, not the name of a person.  It sounds
>>    like you've made the same mistake as the record exec in the song "Have
>>    a Cigar":
    
    Ha ha ha ...Bob, I'm surprised you didn't pick up on this...being a
    Pink Floyd fan and all.
    
    As you are probably aware, there is a song on The Wall album with some
    intentional backmasking on it.  You have to put the stereo on neutral,
    turn the record backwards and listening carefully, you will hear in
    alittle above a whisper...
    
    "Congratulations...you have just discovered the secret message.  Please
    send your answers to...Old PINK...care of..The funny farm...."  Then it
    fades out!
    
    Therefore, by the admission of David Gillmore et al, Pink Floyd's singer
    can be named PINK!
    
    NYYYAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
    
    -Jack

Re: .22 Jack

>    Therefore, by the admission of David Gillmore et al, Pink Floyd's singer
>    can be named PINK!
    
Pink is the name of the *fictional* protagonist in The Wall, e.g. in the
lyric "Pink isn't well, he's back at the hotel".  However, Pink isn't the
name of any actual member of the group.  (Besides, Pink Floyd had more
than one singer.)

				-- Bob

    Yes, as you know, my reply was purely Tongue in Cheek!!!

"It was the best of times.  It was the worst of times.  It was an age
 of wisdom.  It was an age of foolishness..."

					-- Charles Dickens

1965

Voting Rights Act
Martin Luther King marches from Selma to Montgomery
Medicare begins
Riots in Los Angeles
Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" speech

1966

Beginning of Black Power movement
Hearings in Congress on U.S. atrocities in Vietnam

1967

Riots in Detriot, Newark
Vietnam War grinds on, with constant lies to the public about what's happening

1968

Tet offensive in Vietnam
Richard Nixon elected
Martin Luther King assassinated
Robert Kennedy assassinated
Democratic convention in Chicago

1969

Woodstock festival
SALT talks begin
Trial of Chicago 7
First human being on the moon
Police murder Black Panther leaders

        I think that the outstanding characteristics of the sixties
        were two things:  generosity and a questioning of authority. 
        I think both of these traits led to many events in the decade
        (and beyond), some good, some bad, some liberal, and quiet
        possibly some conservative.


        The sixties were probably the last time in American life when
        the average working person felt that things were getting
        better, and that from year to year their physical well-being
        would improve.  I believe that this led to a profound sense
        of generosity, of wanting to, as President Kennedy said,
        "bear any burden" to achieve good at home and abroad.

        I think this sense of generosity led to both the Vietnam war
        (most who pursued it really thought they were doing the
        Vietnamese and the world a favor), a war we continued to
        pursue at enormous cost even when it was becoming quite clear
        that victory (in the traditional sense) was unobtainable.

        I think this generosity also led to the War on Poverty (which
        ended about the same time and in about the same inglorious
        way as the Vietnam War).  (While I do believe the War on
        Poverty was a manifestation of generosity, it was not a
        welfare program in the sense of grants of food, housing, and
        money:  those welfare programs are much older, going back to
        the New Deal, and they continue to this day.  The War on
        Poverty really only lasted (in full force) the five years of
        Lyndon Johnson's presidency.)

        The economy has not grown as it did in the '50s and '60s
        since then.  It's much harder to be generous.


        As far as "questioning authority" goes, it's clear that the
        riots, assassinations, the protests against the Vietnam war,
        and the civil rights bills all sprang from that same well.  I
        guess I feel so strongly that the civil rights bills were the
        most important social change of my lifetime, if not the
        century, that "question authority" is one of my life
        principles.   I know there would have been no progress on
        civil rights without that principle.  (I believe quite
        strongly that one of the reasons that the years before the
        sixties seemed more orderly was that people knew and accepted
        "their place" in society.  Some prices are too high to pay
        for order.)

        (I think a more accurate description of this principle for
        me, rather than "question authority", is "question common
        sense" or "question common knowledge".  We take so much for
        granted as known or true for which there is little evidence
        and which is impossible to support.  Some of the greatest
        atrocities are committed using "what we all know to be
        true" as support.)

        Bob

To me, the '60s were a time of unparalleled optimism.  Yes, like the life
of a butterfly, it was easily and quickly snuffed out.  But while it lived,
it was vibrant and exciting.

The '60s were a time to question the established order of things, which was
infused with lies, cover-ups, and conscious misrepresentations.  The result?
In some cases, the liars got smarter.  Oliver North actually added a new word
to our vocabulary: "disinformation."

The '60s were said to be a time of "free love," meaning "indiscriminate sex."
I never found any.  I eventually concluded that it must not have been as "free"
as I was led to believe.  I was something of a flower child myself at the time
and beset with no small urge to pollinate. ;-}

Shalom,
Richard

The church Pat Robertson occasionally rails against, the Metropolitan
Community Church was founded in 1965 by the Rev. Troy Perry.

Shalom,
Richard

In 1968, the Evangelical United Brethren and the Methodist Church merged
to become the United Methodist Church.

Shalom,
Richard

Ironically, the last time the U.S. government operated without exceeding
revenues was either 1968 or 1969.

Shalom,
Richard

    re .30

    Even more ironically when you consider we were simultaneously
    financing a "War on Poverty" and a war ...er, police action... in South
    East Asia.
    
    	Eric