Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Ephesians 6:10-17.

/john

Is that your best and most complete answer?

Shalom,
Richard

1 John 5:19

From "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis:

  We are living in a part of the universe occupied by the rebel [Satan].

  Christianity is the story of how the rightful king has landed, you might
  say landed in disguise, and is calling us all to take part in a great
  campaign of sabotage.  When you go to church you are really listening
  in to the secret wireless from our friends: that is why the enemy is
  so anxious to prevent us from going.

/john

 There are others...I'll try and dig them up over the weekend.




 Jim

John 12:31  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this 
world be cast out. 




John 16:11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 



John 14:30  Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this 
world cometh, and hath nothing in me. 



  In each of these 3 verses Satan is refered to as the "prince".  The Greek word
  in each case is Archon (Strong's Concordence #758) which is used to talk about
  a "chief, a first (as in a rank in power) and a ruler..


  By contrast, Jesus is refered to as "Prince" in Acts 3:15 and 5:31..this is
  a different greek word (Stong's #747) meaning "author, originator, one who
  provides the first occasion of...


 It easy to see who's in charge around here as one observes the continuing
 (and increasing IMO) decline of society..As the last days go on, Satan, knowing
 his fate, continues to gain more influence..



 Jim

re Note 995.6 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

>  It easy to see who's in charge around here as one observes the continuing
>  (and increasing IMO) decline of society..As the last days go on, Satan, knowing
>  his fate, continues to gain more influence..
  
        The original question, though, was when did Satan take over?

        (This probably belongs under another topic, where we
        discussing why would a good God create humans with a tendency
        to sin -- free will was offered as an explanation, which I
        more or less accept.  What I find much harder to accept is
        why did and does a good God first create a being like Satan
        and then allow this being, apparently from the very
        beginning, to influence the human race towards evil?  Has
        anyone ever tried to explain *that* away?  Or is the concept
        of "Satan" just a personification of the capability of and
        inclination towards evil of our own natures?  This latter
        explanation doesn't require an additional explanation of why
        God would have allowed a good creation to be contaminated
        "from the outside" at the very start.)

        Bob

Note 995.7

>        The original question, though, was when did Satan take over?

Yes, it was.  And in addition, I'd like to know precisely how Satan
took over.

And exactly how do we know the monarch reigning at the time of
the writing of the New Testament Scriptures, God or Satan, is the
one still in charge?

Shalom,
Richard

	Re: .8 Richard

	  >> The original question, though, was when did Satan take over?

	> Yes, it was. And in addition, I'd like to know precisely how ...

	> And exactly how do we know the ...

	To five decimal places, what degree of accuracy/precision are you
	willing to accept?  :^)

	Greetings, Derek.

re .0

Richard,

Firstly, Jehovah God has always been the Universal Sovereign and
this will continue to times indefinite. However, Satan called into
question Jehovah's right to rule. God has allowed Satan to influence
mankind from the first rebllion down to this day, so that this issue
of sovereignty could be settled. That is who has the right to rule?,
and who's rule is right?. There is another issue involved as seen
in the account of Job.

Secondly, Satan was not created wicked. At one time he was an obedient
angel that served his God. However, he allowed self corruption to take
place. His course is likened to that of the king of Tyre in Ezekiel
28:12-15 NWT "Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre,
and you must say to him 'This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has
said: "'"You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom, and perfect
in beauty. In Eden, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious
stone was your covering, ruby, topaz, and jasper; chrys'olite, onyx,
and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship 
of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created 
they were made ready. You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I 
have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst 
of fiery stones you walked about. You were faultless in your ways from the 
day of your being created until rightousness was found in you."

From this we can see that Satan likely had an assignment in the garden 
of Eden. As we can see from the description, his appearance was likened 
to gem stones, that he was a wonderful, glorious creature. It was his 
desires, that he dwelt on, that led to sin. As James 1:14,15 NWT reads 
"But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own 
desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to 
sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death."
No doubt, Satan dwelt on his own magnificence and self importance and
wanted the worship that he saw Adam giving to Almighty God. Rather,
than putting such desires out of his mind he followed through with
them causing the rebellion in the garden of Eden. Satan's enticement
to first human couple was that of self-rule (Genesis 3:4,5), but in reality 
he was just manoeuvring them to follow his own desires. The same is true 
today, man thinks he has self-rule but the Bible indicates that "The whole
world is lying in the power of the wicked one." 1 John 5:19 NWT for Satan 
still excercises a great influence on mankind.

Phil. 

Genesis 3:4,5 "At this the serpent said to the woman: 'You positively will 
not die. For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR 
eyes are bound to be opened to be like God knowing both good and bad.'" 

re: .7 LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish 
 Title:  the problem of evil

 	Or is the concept
        of "Satan" just a personification of the capability of and
        inclination towards evil of our own natures?  This latter
        explanation doesn't require an additional explanation of why
        God would have allowed a good creation to be contaminated
        "from the outside" at the very start.)

The latter explanation still requires an explanation. Once again, we were
created by God, every atom. God is omnipotent. If our nature is inherently evil,
it is because God *CHOSE* to make it that way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re: .10 RDGENG::YERKESS "bring me sunshine in your smile"
Title:  Satan has influenced mankind since the rebellion in the garden of Eden

	God has allowed Satan to influence
	mankind from the first rebllion down to this day, so that this issue
	of sovereignty could be settled.

Then since it appears that Satan is winning, is it his right to rule? Or will
God at some point say enough of this nonsense and remove Satan from the picture?
God condemns us poor humans that have fallen under Satan's sway to eternal
suffering, but he hasn't done the same to Satan? If Satan was powerful enough to
defy God himself, why should we be expected to do better? This whole concept
makes no sense at all!

	and wanted the worship that he saw Adam giving to Almighty God.

But God, being a selfish and jealous sort, was not willing to share? Why would
an omnipotent being desire adulation from his own creations? 

Steve

Re: .11 Steve

>Then since it appears that Satan is winning, is it his right to rule? Or will
>God at some point say enough of this nonsense and remove Satan from the
>picture?

What a straight line! :-)

				-- Bob

Note 995.10

Phil,

	Thanks for your perspective.

>Firstly, Jehovah God has always been the Universal Sovereign and
>this will continue to times indefinite.

	This says God is in charge.

>Secondly, Satan was not created wicked. At one time he was an obedient
>angel that served his God. However, he allowed self corruption to take
>place.

	I've heard this kind of thing before.  I cannot find where it
actually says Satan was an obediant angel gone sour in the Bible.

>From this we can see that Satan likely had an assignment in the garden 
>of Eden.

	This, of course, is a possible interpretation.  The name Satan,
nor the title "ha satan," as it used in Job, however, is not used in
connection with the Garden of Eden.

Shalom,
Richard

    I believe Ezekiel 28 (?) talks about the fall of the King of Tyre.
    The King of Tyre is spoken of in a heavenly realm, surrounded by gold,
    onyx, jasper, etc.  He is spoken of as the Cherub who oversaw the
    throne.  Taken into context with Isaiah 14, it talks in both chapeters
    about the fall of the King of Tyre and the Fall of Lucifer in Isaiah
    14.  They both go pretty much hand in hand.  I believe this is where
    the belief stems from anyway!
    
    -Jack

    .14
    
    Yes, Phil Yerkess mentioned that in 995.10.
    
    Richard
    

I dunno, seems to me that Christianity isn't very consistent about whether
Satan or God is the ruler of the world.  If Satan were really the prince
of the world, human authorities, such as kings and presidents, could only
take power if Satan allowed it - they would owe their allegiance to Satan.
But Paul tells us in Romans that human authorities are instituted by God,
not by Satan.

I suspect that if I studied the Bible closely I'd find some passages that
support the idea that God is the ruler of the world and others that support
the idea that Satan is the ruler of the world.

				-- Bob

.16

>I suspect that if I studied the Bible closely I'd find some passages that
>support the idea that God is the ruler of the world and others that support
>the idea that Satan is the ruler of the world.

I suspect you're right.

Shalom,
Richard

.16

I suspect if you study the Bible closely you can find some passages that support
nearly any idea, and some that deny the same idea just as firmly.

Steve

    I find it interesting that one of the temptations to Jesus was that he
    would give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if Jesus would bow and
    worship him.  
    
    Why would Satan offer Jesus something that wasn't his to offer???
    
    -Jack

re Note 995.19 by AIMHI::JMARTIN:

>     Why would Satan offer Jesus something that wasn't his to offer???
  
        I'm sure that it happens all the time that one person offers
        another something which isn't theirs to give.

        Bob

To understand this rightly, you have to understand that Satan is
a usurper, a prince of this world not through right, but because
he chooses to claim to be and to "go around like a raging lion,
looking for the ruin of souls."

/john

>To understand this rightly, you have to understand that Satan is
>a usurper, a prince of this world not through right, but because
>he chooses to claim to be and to "go around like a raging lion,
>looking for the ruin of souls."

It seems that others are quick to acknowledge Satan as the current ruler
of this earth, as well.

Shalom,
Richard

I still don't understand.

Why did God let this foolishness begin, and why doesn't he end it?
Free will is not a logical explanation for this, we could have free will without
Satan wandering around testing it every two minutes. I cannot reconcile this
(amoung other things) with the concept of an all-powerful loving God. What kind
of parent let's poisonous snakes run loose in the nursery?

Steve

 beats me..frankly I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it, and I'm
 not sure the Bible spends a lot of time talking about it.  The key message
 of the Bible is that man, through his sin has become separated from God.  God,
 who hates sin, came and lived in human form on earth and provided the sacrifice
 required as propitiation for our sin, and we, upon acknowledging our sin, 
 and acceptance of His sacrifice on our behalf, now have peace with God.  That
 is the message that God wants us to hear.

 We can argue for the remainder of our time on earth whether or not Satan
 is in charge and when it happened and why this or that.  That won't get us
 any closer to God.  Man is a sinful being..God hates sin.  God demands 
 payment for sin..God, through His grace, provided the payment for that sin..
 we accept it, or reject it.  The choice is ours, the consequences of our choice
 is ours.




Jim

    This is a very good question Steve.  I also find it an interesting
    thought that although Satan is the deceiver, we are ultimately held
    responsible for our actions.  Remember in the garden that Adam blamed
    Eve, Eve blames the Serpent, yet Adam and Eve were both banished from
    the garden.  
    
    I guess the way I accept God's method is this.  When one goes through
    boot camp, they are given sets of obstacles to overcome and finish the
    course.  I believe God designed things the way he did to make us rely
    strictly on Him and not our own efforts.  What better way to build
    faith.  Paul's letter to the Corinthians I believe states that trials
    build perseverance, perseverance builds character, character builds
    faith and faith builds hope.  Paul also defines our born again
    experience, (from regeneration to physical death) as a person running
    the course of a race.
    
    And finally, I also believe God wants to reveal to us the seriousness
    of sin...its consequences as we see today which also ties in with
    following God, leaning on Him and not ourselves.
    
    -Jack

    In reading the daily newspaper or watching the evening TV news, it
    doesn't take a SWAG to realize who the ruler of this world is.  If
    mankind had chosen to serve God instead of giving rule over to Satan, the 
    world wouldn't be in the mess it is in.
    
    Mike

Note 995.26

>   If
>   mankind had chosen to serve God instead of giving rule over to Satan, the 
>   world wouldn't be in the mess it is in.

I'm still waiting to hear when in the course of human events this coup
supposedly took place.

I'm at least part of humankind and I haven't given rule over to Satan.

This whole line of thinking concerns me.  It smacks of shirking all
responsibility for the condition of the world, the same world entrusted
to us by the Creator.

Richard

>I'm still waiting to hear when in the course of human events this coup
>supposedly took place.
    
    When did mankind choose sin over God?

>I'm at least part of humankind and I haven't given rule over to Satan.
    
    Richard, you and I haven't always served God though.  There are many
    people who don't serve God.  If they aren't serving God, it's obvious
    who they have given rule over to.

>This whole line of thinking concerns me.  It smacks of shirking all
>responsibility for the condition of the world, the same world entrusted
>to us by the Creator.

    That's not the intention.  The intention is realizing what our nature
    really consists of, our need for a Savior, and being the salt/light of the
    earth that the Savior would have us be.
    
    Mike

.24 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Dig a little deeper"

 any closer to God.  Man is a sinful being..God hates sin.  God demands 
 payment for sin..God, through His grace, provided the payment for that sin..
 we accept it, or reject it.  The choice is ours, the consequences of our choice
 is ours.

You forgot "God created sin".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.25 AIMHI::JMARTIN "Barney IS NOT a nerd!!"

    This is a very good question Steve.  I also find it an interesting
    thought that although Satan is the deceiver, we are ultimately held
    responsible for our actions.  Remember in the garden that Adam blamed
    Eve, Eve blames the Serpent, yet Adam and Eve were both banished from
    the garden.  

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but it honestly looks to me as if God were the
deceiver. Also, I approve of being responsible for one's own actions, but how
does this square with the concept of original sin?

    ......  Paul's letter to the Corinthians I believe states that trials
    build perseverance, perseverance builds character, character builds
    faith and faith builds hope.

But this progression is just as valid without God. You can skip the faith part,
go striaight from character to hope, and still be accurate.

    And finally, I also believe God wants to reveal to us the seriousness
    of sin...its consequences as we see today which also ties in with
    following God, leaning on Him and not ourselves.

The problem with any argument based on teaching us the consequences of sin, is
that any such lesson is only good until a person dies and goes to wherever. You
cannot teach 'mankind' lessons of this type. The person that was raped and
murdered by a barbarian in the dark ages does not teach me, as an individual,
anything. So the question still comes down to what is he waiting for? The final
coming will still only affect those alive at the time, and has no affect on
those that have already died? So what possible purpose is served by letting this
thing drag out?

Now if his goal was to show future generations how bad it could get without him
I can see at least some sense in waiting until it gets really bad (although WWII
seems like bad enough), but if everyone ascends to the kingdom of heaven (or
hell) at that point, the delay makes no sense at all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.28 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    Richard, you and I haven't always served God though.  There are many
    people who don't serve God.  If they aren't serving God, it's obvious
    who they have given rule over to.

Oh yes, the all non-Christians are *EVIL* argument again. I had thought we'd
gotten beyond that... (sigh). Being atheistic means that I have given just as
much credence to Satan as I've given to God, and Santa Claus, and the Easter
Bunny, etc.

Steve

RE:<<< Note 995.29 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Creator of Buzzword Compliant Systems" >>>


>You forgot "God created sin".


 I don't believe that He did.

   >anything. So the question still comes down to what is he waiting for? 

  He may just be waiting for you to be saved...





 Jim

>Oh yes, the all non-Christians are *EVIL* argument again. I had thought we'd
>gotten beyond that... (sigh). Being atheistic means that I have given just as
>much credence to Satan as I've given to God, and Santa Claus, and the Easter
>Bunny, etc.
    
    Steve, one of your fellow atheists, Neil Peart (drummer/lyricist of the
    progressive rock group Rush) summed it up very well in their song "Free
    Will":
    
    "you can be a ready guide 
       for some celestial voice
     if you choose not to decide
       you still have made a choice"
    
    Bob Dylan once sang/wrote:
    
    "it might be the devil or it might be the Lord
     but you're gonna have to serve somebody"
    
    From God's Word:
    
Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE
WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other
side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: BUT AS
FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE lORD.

    >  He may just be waiting for you to be saved...
    
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye
should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to
Israel, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN.
    
    What if you were the last one God was waiting for to be saved before
    putting the remainder of His divine plan into action?  What if Jesus
    Christ was waiting for you so that He can return?  
    
    I'm sure that Gentile counter in heaven is getting very close.
    
    Mike

 There's plenty of questions I have for God and I figure they'll be
 answered in eternity..there'll be plenty of time to talk about how/why
 He did this or that..


 I personally believe that God's plan from the beginning was not to answer
 all of our questions about creation or how Satan came to be, etc..I think
 He could come and sit in our homes right now and explain it all to us, but
 we would *still* be left with the fact that we are sinners and in need of
 Jesus Christ..and many will not be saved because they refuse to accept this.
 Jesus encountered people daily..there are accounts of them, who *knew* who
 He was, and they still refused to turn away from sin.

 We can know everything there is to know about Him and be able to explain
 it to the world..and still be lost because of our sin..there are plenty of
 Christians who don't understand it all, or even half of it..but, they do
 know that they have sinned, and fallen fall short of the glory of God..that
 is the message we need to understand..



Jim

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

.30 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Dig a little deeper"

>You forgot "God created sin".
>> I don't believe that He did.

As the creator of the universe, how could he not? You can't give him absolute
power, and credit for the creation of everything, without also including the bad
in his credits. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.31 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

    "you can be a ready guide 
       for some celestial voice
     if you choose not to decide
       you still have made a choice"

Nice lyrics. In some cases this is true, but not in this one. You have made an
assertion (God) similar to hundreds of other assertions by millions of other
people (various flavors of other Gods). My stand is simple. I see no evidence to
support your (or their) assertion. The only choice here is to not believe your
assertion without evidence. You make similar 'choices' dozens of times per day,
as you filter incoming information.

    "it might be the devil or it might be the Lord
     but you're gonna have to serve somebody"

This is only true in the black and white world that you inhabit.

	Joshua 24:15

Irrelevant unless you already believe in the Bible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.33 CSLALL::HENDERSON "Dig a little deeper"

 Jesus Christ..and many will not be saved because they refuse to accept this.
 Jesus encountered people daily..there are accounts of them, who *knew* who
 He was, and they still refused to turn away from sin.

My point, exactly! At least if he did this, we would know what we were choosing. 
From the evidence that exists today, however, it is like choosing between two
nothings.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.34 FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything"

	John 20:29
	Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast 	
	believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Translation: Blessed are the gullible?

Steve