Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Be ye separate from the world...  ye are in the world, but not of the
    world.

    I agree.  Our ultimate loyalty is not to any power or nation on Earth,
    but to the Realm of the Sovereign.  We are to be actively engaged, but
    not enmeshed, with our temporal environment.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    I had a tough class last night.  seventy eight Christians, one quiet
    Unitarian Universalist, and me studying Revelations.
    
    I left hating the book of Revelations.  I made the unpopular comment
    that the book of Revelations is appalling to non Christians.
    
    In today's world which is different than the 1 century C.E. the idea of
    Christians being resident aliens is very different.  It smacks of a
    religious imperialism.  It is Manifest Destiny for all the world to
    become Christian.  Well fortunately it isn't but many Christians lament
    that because of the exlusivity inherent in a literal reading of the
    Bible.
    
    How different the term resident alien is when applied to 1 century
    Christians facing the death penalty for not forshipping idols, to
    twentieth century Christians threatening the everlasting death penalty
    to those who will not worship the Bible.
    
    Should we all find hope and joy in our conviction that we are one of
    the 144, 000 marked for everlasting glory, while the rest of our
    brothers and sisters are marked for doom, torture, and destruction at
    the hands of a benevolent god.
    
    Patricia/
    a resident alien in a Christian land.

 David Jeremiah, Pastor of Shadow Mountain Community church in San Diego
 California has been doing an excellent study of the book of Revelation
 on his daily radio program "Turning Point".  Right now they are in 
 Chapter 18 I believe.


 "Appalling to Non Christians"....well, I suppose it is.  Not sure how
 they will feel about it when what they read about is actually taking place
 at some point in the future, particularly when the Christ they have rejected
 becomes very real to them.  



 
 Jim

>    Should we all find hope and joy in our conviction that we are one of
>    the 144, 000 marked for everlasting glory, while the rest of our
>    brothers and sisters are marked for doom, torture, and destruction at
>    the hands of a benevolent god.
    
    I know JW's believe this, and it appears that you do as well:  "Christ's 
    blood shed on Calvary applies only to 144,000 elite JW's (the "Israel of 
    God") and not for the "great crowd," the remainder of JW's (Aid to Bible 
    Understanding, p. 389)."
    
    This is contrary to the whole context of the Bible.  Christ died on behalf 
    of all men (I Timothy 2:5-6, I John 2:2, II Corinthians 5:15, Hebrews 2:9) 
    and said He is preparing a place for those who trust Him, and that place 
    will be with Him (John 14:1-3). 
    
    Mike

    I'm a Christian and I find the Revelation repulsive, obtuse, and really
    no longer relevant.
    
    This topic was derived not from the Revelation, but from the letter called
    I Peter.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

re .6

Mike,

I don't have the book "Aid to Bible Understanding", but I know for sure
that the "great crowd" mentioned in Revelation 7:9,14 do have the hope
of everlasting life. This is on earth as God orginally intended for
Adam and his offspring (Genesis 1:28, Isa 55:11). Hence, Christ's shed
blood will apply also to the "great crowd" as Revelation 7:14 points 
out.

Those that go to heaven, the 144,000, will rule as priests and kings over
the earth (Revelation 5:9,10). Peter tells us that rightousness is to
dwell in the new earth or soceity (2 Peter 3:13), hence the "great
crowd" who come out of the great tribulation will enjoy blessings from
this kingdom of kings and priests in the heavens. All made possible
through Christ's shed blood.

Phil.

    Rejection of the book of Revelation seems logical to me in the human
    sense.  But in the Spiritual sense, it is very illogical..
    
    Revelations along with it's prophecies of the last day, also states
    that there will no more tears in heaven and describes heaven to us. 
    For the Believer, the book of Revelation has no threat.
    
    What it also can do for the believer is encourage us to be better soul
    winners.
    
    It's a book that motivates through love the need to spread the Gospel..
    also in Revelation, Jesus likens salvation to a door...
    
    Whoever knocks, him will I enter in.

Patricia,
    
 If you look at a the passages in Revelations again, you will notice that
144,000 refers to all the tribes of Israel, and also a multitude THAT NO
ONE COULD COUNT from all parts of the world.

Also, if the 144,000 refer to the only ones who will be worthy of heaven,
then will WOMEN be unworthy of heaven???  I don't think so!  I know of
many Christian women that are 1000 times more worthy of heaven than I am!

 REV 14:4	These are those who did not defile themselves with
		WOMEN, for they kept themselves pure...

	----------------------------------------------------------------

 REV 7:4	Then I heard the number of those who were sealed:
		144000 from all the tribes of Israel.

			(The 12 tribes are listed)

 REV 7:9	After this I looked and there before me was a great
		multitude that no one could count, from EVERY NATION
		TRIBE, PEOPLE AND LANGUAGE, standing before the throne
		and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing WHITE ROBES..

 REV 7:13	Then one of the elders asked me, "These in WHITE ROBES
		- who are they, and where did they come from?
		And he said, "These are they who have come out of the
		great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made
		them WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB. 

		Therefore,"they are before the throne of God and serve him 
		day and night in his temple and who sits on the throne will 
		spread 	a tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never
		again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them,
		nor the scorching heat. 
		
		For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their
		shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water;
		And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

 Jesus wants all of us to spend eternety with him, and I pray that every
one may understand the greatness of his love, and the shedding of his blood
for us.

 REV 3:19	Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be
		earnest, and repent.
      :20	HERE I AM! I stand at the door and knock. If
		anyone opens the door, I will come in and eat
		with him, and he with me,
      :21       To him who overcomes, I will give the right to
		sit on my throne, just as I overcame and sat
		down with my Father on his throne..

 God Bless,
 Oleg
 
    

    Richard,
    
    I am glad you find Revelation repulsive, obtuse and no longer relevant.
    
    The reaction in class was interesting in that I know that there is a
    range from conservative Christians to more liberal Christians.  It felt
    like no one in the class other than I spoke out against revelation. 
    
    Two people acknowledged my statement to me after class.  
    
    We also talked about Judas and 2 Peter in the class.  The question was
    should they be excluded from the Canon.  The class answer was
    overwhelmingly No! even though there was overwheming feeling that they
    were of a far less quality than the rest of the  Bible.  The class
    reaction was that Canon should not be messed with even with all the
    modern understanding of how things were canonized.
    
    THere is Faith in the process by which God inspired the canonization
    process but absolutely no Faith that a Living God could also inspire a
    recononization process.  It makes me thing that Christians must think
    that God was much more powerful in the  Biblical period than he/she is
    today.
    
    Patricia

    >The class
    >    reaction was that Canon should not be messed with even with all the
    >    modern understanding of how things were canonized.
    
    I am curious as to what makes our modern understanding more accurate?

    As was quoted yesterday, the book of James made it into the cannon by
    one vote.  The hand of God argument states that so what, God controlled
    the process. 
    
    So if a faith community decided to create a new canon, why don't
    Christians have faith that the Living God would control that process as
    well?
    
    It sounds like institutional Christianity  has more faith in the Bible than
    faith in God.
    
    Patricia

Note 914.13

>    It sounds like institutional Christianity  has more faith in the Bible than
>    faith in God.
    
Patricia,

	I would concur, except I would give greater emphasis to
non-institutional Christianity.  There is no shortage of bibliolators
at this moment in time.

Peace,
Richard

    So is it then the non institutional Christians who are the resident
    aliens?
    
                                Patricia

    .15  No, not necessarily.
    
    When I say resident alien, I don't mean to signal that Christians
    should not take full responsibility to bring about the Realm of God
    on Earth.  And, I don't mean that Christians should be isolated,
    cut off or "separate."
    
    I do mean that if one is doing it right, the Christian will appear
    to be eccentric, foolish, even subversively outlandish.  And not without
    good reason, either.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Was .13 the answer to my question?

 The "Realm of God"?  Has that replaced "kingdom of God"?





 Jim

"Realm" means "kingdom".

"Real" means "king".

/john

   Thanks...I wondered if perhaps "realm" was a pc version of "kingdom"


   false alarm, I guess.



   Jim quite familiar with "El Camino Real" having lived near such a highway
   much of his life




 Jim

    .20  You're free, of course, to consider it pc, as all this pc
    and counter-pc business is simply a matter of mind and attitude
    anyway.
    
    The word 'realm' is freer of gender distinction than 'kingdom.'  If
    that's what you're keeping a careful watch out for, you've found
    it.
    
    Richard
    

                                     
    From what little I know of Revelation, it is symbolic and extremely
    yogic in nature.  For example, the 7 candlesticks, angels, stars, and
    the like, really refer to the 7 main energy centers in the body, known
    in Sanskrit as the chakras.  Read from this perspective, the words tend
    to take on a whole new meaning.  
    
    Apart from that though, there is the reference to 'Wormwood'...in a
    reading I came across recently, apparently 'Chernobyl' translates to
    'Wormwood', which was kind of interesting.
    
    Cindy

 .21


   Thanks..i wasn't keeping a close watch out for anything, though I'll confess
   to a curiousity about why some are intent on removing gender specific 
   language from the Word of God, as though we have such a right to do so.




 Jim

    Perhaps we also had no right to place Scriptures on the printed page
    or the cathode ray tube, instead of the scroll, or better yet, stone
    tablets.
    
    Perhaps we had no right to write any of it down, since 'God's Word'
    was oral long before any of its more contemporary forms.
    
    Richard
    

    and we are really forbidden to expose the revolutionary natue of the
    Word of God against the keepers of the gate of Male dominance and rule.
    
    Would Jesus be accused of the scandel of political correctness if he
    revealed himself/herself today?
    
                                        Patricia

    
>    Would Jesus be accused of the scandel of political correctness if he
>    revealed himself/herself today?
    
  

    I doubt it..I suspect he'd be speaking rather pointedly at the sin that
    is rampant in this world today.




 Jim

    .27  Interesting p_n you've got there, Patricia!  ;-}
    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I agree.  The sin of sexism, rascism, and homophobia being some of the
    sins he would be outraged at.
    
                                   Patricia
    
    is that better Richard?

    The Bible contains the Word of God, but the book itself is not the
    Word of God.  (Of course, I fully expect others to disagree with this
    summation.)
    
    I can explain why I choose the (pc) word 'realm' in place of 'kingdom,'
    which, I might add, I don't always do.
    
    None of us really knows firsthand what it's like to live under a
    monarchy, except perhaps the titular variety.  So why not use terms
    which make the message(s) of the Bible evermore real and relevant?

    By using the word 'realm' I'm not compromising the substance, but
    merely altering the form.  Some people get the two mixed up.

    Shalom,
    Richard

    RE: .30
    
    
    I like your first paragraph! Nice phrase.
    
    Marc H.