Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Faithfulness is something that most of us desire in our relationships. 
    One who is unfaithful causes excruciating pain to his/her mate.  
    
    God has often expressed how important faithfulness is not only in
    marriage, but in our spiritual life as well, our relationship with Him.
    
    While he has mentioned that there are other gods, he has also mentioned
    that "Thou shalt put no other God before me", this can also be implied
    equal to him.  For he also says, "Use not the Lord thy God's name in
    vain."  Vanity doesn't always mean swearing.  It can also mean using
    Christ's name as equal to others.
    
    Philippians 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
    
    The name of Jesus is sacred, it is Holy and will be revered if not on
    this earth in our human lives, whether in heaven or hell it shall be
    declared as a name above all other names.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    

    Faithful
    
    1. Supportive, Loyal
    2. Worthy of trust or belief
    3. Consistent with fact
    
    Syns:  Constant, fast, firm, loyal, resolute, staunch, steadfast,
    steady, true

    
    		The faith in Jesus Christ has been something of a "calling
    card" for most Christians.  It is this word that excites us the most and 
    yet is the least seen among us.  Even Peter, upon whose faith Jesus 
    said he would build his Church, denyed him three times before the cock 
    crowed on the day of his lords death.  It was Thomas who said" My
    lord, my god" after being shown his nail scared hands.  And it was Mary
    whose lifetime of faith caused Jesus to appear to her first after he
    arose.  David, the man after Gods own heart, failed God in so many ways
    but because his faith cause him to bring all matters to God, God
    blessed him mightly.   And Ruth, beautiful Ruth, full of love....
    
    Ok..ok...I'll stop.  :-}  Feel another sermon coming on. :-)
    
    
    Dave

    Faith is a strong word, it defies gravity and common sense. :-)
    
     But being found faithful is also very powerful.  God promises a
    special crown for the faithful, or if you will, the unwaivering.
    
    We are to be faithful to God or risk causing hurt in his heart as deep
    as a wounded mate.  God loves us so deeply that when his people stray
    from the Truth, he longs for us to return.  Like the father of the
    prodigal son... ready to kill the fatted calf.
    
    When I think of the Love of Christ and of what he did on the cross, my
    love cannot be divided amongst other gods.  There is no greater love
    then that of one who would lay down his life for a friend.
    
    I love my God... and I know He loves me... and His love is PURE... so
    PURE that it softens my hard heart, that it heals my broken heart and
    that it purges my unclean heart...
    
    God's word is so powerful that it is quick and sharp as a two-edged
    sword, it cuts to the chase... gets to the root problems and yanks
    those puppies right out... all I need to do is stay clothed in the
    armor of God, protecting my head, my heart, my loins and my feet.
    
    Steadfast, loyal, true...  
    
    

    "Faith is the bird that sings while it is dark because it feels
    the light even before it arrives."
    
    This is a paraphrase of a saying I heard by a Jewish rabbi.  It
    stuck with me.  Maybe I'm an orno-theologist! ;-}
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    
    
    Maybe just a bird-brain, Richard....
    
       Har, har, har 
    
          Greg -- back from a 3-day weekend -- and over 300 miles
                  on the bicycle (I've got a serious case of bike
                  butt and serious sunburn on my ever larger
                  forehead)

    Faith is cruising a bicycle down a quiet street, 
    feeling the spirituality and sensuality of the cool breeze all around
    the endorphins turned up high,
    A feeling that God's in his heaven and all's right with the world.

    You've now defined faith, can you tell me what faithful means to you?

    >Faith
    
    >Faith is cruising a bicycle down a quiet street, 
    >feeling the spirituality and sensuality of the cool breeze all around
    >the endorphins turned up high,
    >A feeling that God's in his heaven and all's right with the world.
    
    Faithful
    
    Carrying and living that feeling of God's presence 24 hours a day.
    

    Can you be faithful when the feeling is gone?

    Unless you are  habitually aware of God's presence, I don't believe you
    can be faithful.  Awareness of God's presence is a feeling. 
    
    Patricia

    -1  
    
    >Awareness of God's presence is a feeling.
    
    Can you explain this one just a little bit more for me?  What kind of
    feeling?

    Faithful, besides meaning full of faith, means maintaining a relationship
    of integrity; to not "cheat."
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Richard,Nancy,
    
    I like the definition of faithful as maintianing a relationship of
    integrity.  I don't like the negatively expressed version "to not
    cheat".
    
    The positive does get at the "feeling" of living in the presence of
    God.  The question I ask myself is what does it feel like to live a
    relationship of integrity.  How  do I feel when I am  living out of a
    sense of integrity.  I tend to know when I am living with integrity
    based on my feelings.  
    
    My being an "INFP" on the Myers Brigs scale influences my answer. The "F" 
    means,I tend to make decisions for myself based upon how things feel.
    The opposite on that scale is "t" which means to make decisions based
    on thoughts.
    
    The "I" (introversion) means I tend to process things including feelings 
    Inwardly.  It is very important for me to understand my feelings and to
    think about them.

    I admired Jobs faithfulness particularly.  To anyone, if we survive a 
    nuclear war and life is completely miserable, will you still have this 
    feeling, or will you lose hope?
    
    The great example of faith to me is Acts 16 where Paul and Silas are
    in jail.  Their circumstances were miserable and they suffered for the
    cause of Christ.  We see how God freed them as a testimony to the
    jailer and he and his house got saved that very day!
    
    -Jack

    Patricia,
    
    Thanks for the answer.  I understand exactly what you mean.  I am an
    ENFP and live much of my life with my feelings right out in front of
    me.. I also have a very strong sense of discernment, which I think you
    probably do too.  How the E differs from I probably is mostly in
    expression... I think.
    
    Anyway back to topic.  I'm often told that living by your feelings
    causes much unhappiness because our feelings are very transient.  For
    women that becomes particularly hazardous due to our hormonal fluxes
    throughout each month.  I am constantly reminded that what I feel may
    not actually be accurate during those times.
    
    Being faithful is a discipline, decision or an attitude if you will
    that transcends our emotions or feelings.  Being faithful is a reaction
    in many folks who are married.  When someone of the opposite sex who is
    attractive comes on to them, their automatic reaction is to remember
    their spouse and shun the flirtatiousness of another.  Most who have
    someone of the opposite sex turn them on would encourage and possibly
    follow through with an affair.  75% of all marriages in this country
    experience unfaithfulness.  But what stops the faithful from going this
    far?  Character? Yeah, but what in that character?  The discipline,
    decision to be faithful the bite your teeth and zip your zipper kind of
    action that overrules the stimulation is what helps one to be faithful.
    
    I think of Joseph, sold into slavery by his brothers, thrown into
    prison, released to Potifer as a servant, temptation from Potifer's
    wife and being faithful to Potifer gets thrown into prison again
    through the lies of Potifer's wife... In prison again, he is chained,
    beaten and left to die when the Butcher and the Baker of the King is
    imprisoned with him...  Then Joseph interprets the dreams and the Baker
    is released from prison and promises to remember Joseph to the King. 
    But he doesn't and time passes when the King needs his dream
    interpreted.   Then the baker remembers Joseph and the King gives
    audience to Joseph.  Joseph not only interprets the dream, but the King
    declares him the wisest man in his kingdom and appoints Joseph head of
    his kingdom under himself.  
    
    A famine hits the homeland of Joseph and his brothers come to the king
    for grain.  They don't recognize their now older brother and of course
    they surely didn't think he'd be in the position of the King's right
    hand man.  And Joseph gives liberally to his brothers.  He also gets to
    meet the brother that was born after he was enslaved.
    
    Joseph loved his brothers inspite of their wrong.. he remained faithful
    to God through his trials, he remained faithful to his brothers and
    father through his trials.  He could have retaliated... but he didn't.
    
    Joseph certainly after having been sold into slavery, beaten, falsely
    accused, and imprisoned for near all of his life, surely must not have
    FELT like being faithful or kind... but he was... He didn't let his
    circumstances dictate to his spirit.
    
    Being Faithful to God though certainly leaves one feeling whole and
    comforted is a discipline, a decision, an attitude a way of living.

    Nancy,
    
    I think the wonderful thing about Bible stories is that each one of us
    takes something a little different from each story.  The Bible is a
    treasury of stories and our own minds and spirits(with Divine
    assistance perhaps)  allow us to find that which comforts us and
    inspires us when we need it.  
    
    I have spent much of the last four years getting very much in touch
    with my feelings.  Getting in touch with one's feeling is a discipline.
    That does not mean that I always act on my feelings but it means that I
    try from moment to moment to have my feelings and know what they are
    about.  
    
    One of my most valued feelings during this period is my feeling of
    being in relationship with Goddess/God.  I do learn to relate with God
    based on my human relationships.  If I think about my role models that
    encourage me to be the best person I can be, and inspire me to get in
    touch with the best powers within me, that helps point me to my
    relationship with the Divine.  
    
    I relate to Cindy's term "Christ" Conscious in that regard.  "Christ"
    is the power of God, the Word of God, the Wisdom of God, incarnate in
    the flesh.  I can feel it, when I am in relationship with a person
    acting from this kind of personally intergrity.  And when I relate to
    such a person, or to any person "living in Christ" I too am inspired to
    get in touch with the best inside of me.  
    
    A spiritual community could be defined as a community in which the
    "Christ" in each person meets and interacts with the "Christ" in every
    other person.  Christ in that sense is the Wisdom of God incarnate.
    It implies for me more than a community of people who accept certain
    doctrines and beliefs about the history and person of Jesus.
    
    I can feel it when I am in community.  All true community for me is a
    holy community.  It implies the embodiment of the most important
    commandment to love God with all one's heart, mind, and soul and to
    love others as oneself.
    
    Theologically, these beliefs are very much in line with Paul's theology
    as expressed in Corinthians, and elsewhere.
    
    Faithfulness and holiness for me are very much a feeling-a mystic
    feeling.  they are also a commitment for my actions to follow from my 
    feelings.
    
    It is not easy to put it all in words.
    
    Patricia

    How does your feeling react to times of trial? 
    
    BTW, I enjoyed your note very much and believe though we may word
    things differently we really do think alike in some areas.

    Times of trial are psychically more bearable when the decision to
    accept the suffering is a choice.  Suffering is still suffering,
    pain is still pain, of course.  However, the soul that willingly
    chooses the cross, instead of beating beat over the head with it,
    will be the stronger and more resilient one.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    That is also the power that I have learned from Paul's message.  That
    we can endure in suffering.  That we can make one decision after
    another from a sense of integrity.  That we can have hope and faith
    that we will make the right decisions.  As Richard says that  we make a
    decision to accept the suffering.
    
    Patricia

    Is being faithful to one the renouncing of all others?  Am I, as a
    married man, never to exchange ideas and feelings with another woman
    besides my spouse?  What a ridicules notion!
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Richard,
    
    Being faithful in any relationship means living up to the commitment in
    the relationship.  The covenant so  to speak.  Either implicitly or
    explicitly we establish covenants in all our relationships.
    
    Marriage in Western Civilization implies a covenant to have sexual
    relations only within the marriage.  Faithlessness for me is not
    defined by having sex or not having sex but by living up to the
    covenant.
    
    I believe that each partnered couple have differing covenants with each
    other that cover a whole lot of things other than sex.  Faithfulness is
    living up to all the terms of the covenant.  IMHO
    
    Patricia

    .22
    
    Absolutely Patricia.
    
    .21
    
    Forsaking all others is a part of most western wedding vows.  So I
    guess I don't think it's all that ridiculous. 
    
    The question comes to mind as I think of what you have written just what
    does faithfulness mean in a relationship, the synonym loyal comes to 
    mind.
    
    Conversation with another does not equal lack of loyalty.  This is where 
    the emotion that Patricia was talking about comes into play, it's a 
    sense of responsibility and commitment with love.  When the emotional 
    aspect of love or sensuality [not equating the two] comes into view with 
    someone other then your mate, then the potential if not actuality of 
    unfaithfulness occurs.
    
    
    

    The phrase "forsaking all others" was not in our wedding vows,
    however, even if it had been, I do not construe that faithfulness
    in marriage means to neglect or ignore or to be incommunicado with
    all others.
    
    If you do, then so be it.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    
    Richard,
    
    how could you come to the conclusion you did based on this?
    
    From my .23
    
    Conversation with another does not equal lack of loyalty.  This is where
    the emotion that Patricia was talking about comes into play, it's a
    sense of responsibility and commitment with love.  When the
    emotional aspect of love or sensuality [not equating the two] comes into 
    view with someone other then your mate, then the potential if not actuality
    of unfaithfulness occurs.
    
    
    
    
    

    .25  I didn't reach a conclusion in .24.
    

    Okay... I concede.
    
    Fight with yourself Richard.  My time, my heart has too much to offer
    to someone who wishes to just take stabs at me.

    Both:
    903.16 (Nancy) and
    903.17 (Patricia)
    were very beautiful notes.
    
    I after reading 903.17 I was thinking the same thing that Nancy said in
    903.18 which was:  If you can get past the "language" and the "style of
    wording" or "terminology used" and get down to how people feel and the
    concepts they are trying to convey, we are a lot more similar than we
    may sometimes think!
    
    Thanks you two...
    
    Rob
    

    Nancy,
    
    >When the emotional aspect of love or sensuality [not equating the two] 
    >come into view with someone other then your mate, then the potential if 
    >not actuality of unfaithfulness occurs.
    
    This is an area that I have thought a lot about particularly since I
    very much enjoy my friendships with a number of men both single and
    married.
    
    Jesus' love ethic is central to my beliefs. My goal is to have the most
    honest, loving, intimate relationships possible with the people who are
    important to me.  To experience love in the fullest sense of that word
    with the exception that I do honor and value the commitments to sexual
    fidelity which are central to committed partnership relationships.
    
    I also am committed to being in touch with and having my own feelings
    including my sexual feelings.  This is where I am committed to having
    my actions follow my commitments and not always my feelings.  Perhaps
    it is the recognition of a hierarchy of feelings with some more
    transient than others.
    
    If as I stated I believe that all of our relationships our covenant
    relationships and faithfulness is living up to the terms of the
    covenant, then there is always temptation to not live up to the terms
    of the covenant.  We are human and we experience temptation constantly. 
    Faithfulness is in all of our actions being in integrity with our
    commitments.  To God, to ourselves, to our partners, to our friends, to
    all humanity, to all creation.
    
    I don't view sexual temptation or sexual sin as any different than
    other temptations or other sin.
    
    Patricia
    
    
    

>    This is an area that I have thought a lot about particularly since I
>    very much enjoy my friendships with a number of men both single and
>    married.
    
    Patricia, let me re-emphasize no-one is suggesting that this is wrong.
    
>    Jesus' love ethic is central to my beliefs. My goal is to have the most
>    honest, loving, intimate relationships possible with the people who are
>    important to me.  
    
    I agree with your here.. but Jesus also teaches us to love our
    enemies... how do you feel about that?
     
    >To experience love in the fullest sense of that word
>    with the exception that I do honor and value the commitments to sexual
>    fidelity which are central to committed partnership relationships.
    
    We agree.
    
    
>    I also am committed to being in touch with and having my own feelings
>    including my sexual feelings.  This is where I am committed to having
    
    Amen to that!  An *nfp typically is very good at this... oftimes
    expressing those needs to a mate can be difficult, once they are known
    to the individual themselves.  
    
>    my actions follow my commitments and not always my feelings.  Perhaps
>    it is the recognition of a hierarchy of feelings with some more
>    transient than others.
    
    That sounds interesting and thought provoking.  It's also good to hear
    this.  When making a spiritual commitment, can your personal circum-
    stances sway your emotional connection?
    
    >If as I stated I believe that all of our relationships our covenant
    >relationships and faithfulness is living up to the terms of the
    >covenant, then there is always temptation to not live up to the terms
    >of the covenant.  We are human and we experience temptation constantly. 
    >Faithfulness is in all of our actions being in integrity with our
    >commitments.  To God, to ourselves, to our partners, to our friends, to
    >all humanity, to all creation.
    
    Amen to that!  We are in complete agreement!
    
>    I don't view sexual temptation or sexual sin as any different than
>    other temptations or other sin.
    
    Well we diverse a little here... I believe that God views it
    differently as far as relationships are concerned, but not as far as
    judgement is concerned.
    
    Another question, how do you decide to whom Spiritually you will be
    faithful?
    
    

    Nancy,
    
    It is good to see that we have so much agreement.
    
    Yes I believe we should love our enemies.  In fact we should not have
    enemies.  There are different kinds of love though and different kinds
    of commitments and relationships.
    
    Regarding choosing the source of my spiritual relationship, that is no
    issue.  I  like you believe that there is only one God and I
    believe that you and I and everyone else in here worship that same one
    God.  We just have some differences in the nature of that God and in
    how we experience  God and how we experience  God's revelation to us.
    
    I believe God is real.  Therefore the reality of God transcends all
    personal images of God.  Even if I do not know God fully, God still is
    fully who God is.  That is why I love the statement.  "I am who I am".
    For me it says it all.
    
    Patricia

    The Jezebel topic made me revisit this string... "Faithful",
    contemplating the term "faithful"... what does it mean spiritually?
    
    God says we are to put no other gods before us...   But he gives us
    that choice.  
    
    A spiritual whore is not much different than a marital whore.
    
    
    
    

    Jezebel was a created being, made in God's image.  Jezebel's conduct
    holds no more merit than Hitler's or anybody elses for that matter.
    
    Jezebel was faithless to her creator.  There is nothing noble about
    that.
    
    -Jack

Jezebel certainly wasn't faithful to Yahweh.  But she wasn't a follower of
Yahweh, so why should she be considered faithless to him?  She was a
Pheonician who worshipped (her specific) baal.

It's like accusing a Hindu of being wicked and faithless to his creator
because he doesn't worship the Christian God.

				-- Bob

    Bob:
    
    Our natural tendency is to be wicked.  This is the human condition.
    Jezebel was a wicked individual.  She wasn't unfaithful but she was
    faithless.
    
    -Jack