Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Dave .0,
    
    	A timely question.  Are not teaching, preaching and healing works?
    Or are you defining "works" as simply adherence to the ancient Mosiac Law?
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

(Note 9.925)

Matthew 23 has Jesus denouncing the authorities for such things as
"not lifting a finger to help" and for getting bogged in the details
of the Law at the expense of justice, mercy and honesty.

In Matthew 25.31-46, Jesus separates the ones who serve not by the
depth or degree of their faith, but by their actions.

Luke 10.25-37 includes the story of the 'good' Samaritan.  The pious
of the faith passed by the wounded traveller and, by sin of omission,
failed to obey (a work) the Great Commandment.

It seems to me that what one does or doesn't do is absolutely integral
to the teachings of Jesus.

Richard

I'd argue that there was never a second way of salvation -
only one way, the way that Abraham showed - by faith.

No one was ever saved by works, whether in the Old
Testament or the New Testament.  This does not mean that
works should not be performed; they should be performed.

But, from the beginning, it has been God who saves.  How
could this be otherwise?  Once we have sinned, we are
*incapable* of restoring ourselves to God.  Therefore,
how could works (which we do) ever save us?  They couldn't
and they don't.  There has always been a need to trust in
God for our salvation from sin and restoration with God.

Collis

    RE:  Base note,
    
    			How was Adam to be saved?  And why was Jesus called
    the second Adam.  Why does God try you at the great white throne
    judgement from *TWO* sets of books...the book of life and the books of
    works?
    
    
    Dave

    RE: .3   Collis,
    
    			Your right ( I believe) "Ye are created unto good
    works".  
    
    Dave

 re .4


 I believe that at the time of our salvation our names are entered into the
 book of life.  Then, those who's names are written in the Book of Life are
 judged on the works since the time of salvation and rewarded accordingly.




 Jim

    What is missing in this string is the link between faith and works. 
    Paul captures the thought very well.  Those who are spiritual have the
    requirements of God's law written in their hearts.  It is not by
    talking about God or the Spirit of God that will save anyone but by
    demonstrating the spirit through our works.  We who are Born to God are
    new creation and therefore know in our hearts what is required of us
    and do it.
    
    Jesus spoke at least 1000 years after the the mosaic law was written. 
    He criticized the blind adherence to the law rather than living one's
    life according to the spirit of Goodness.  That is what the Good
    samariten story is about.  The Samaritan new instinctinctly what right
    living was about.  He was righteous not on account of his good works
    but on account of his instinctive knowledge of God's will.
    
    2000 years after the writing of the New Testament today's pharisees
    believe that salvation comes from quoting dogma and intellectually
    accepting the dogma.  Salvation comes from faith in the Goodness of God
    and the demonstration of that faith by the works that we do.  Whether
    we intellectually believe a doctrine or not doesn't mean a hoot.  What
    matters is that we have faith in God and demonstrate that faith through
    our living, including the way we treat others.
    
    Patricia   

re .0

Why is Jesus referred to as the second Adam?

Mainly because like Adam he was brought into the world as a perfect human 
and he bought back what Adam had lost.

1 Corinthians 15:45 RSV "'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last
Adam became a life-giving spirit."

Death today, is seen as a normal occurrence that happens to us all. However,
death in itself is not normal for humans as per God's original purpose. Adam
was given the grand commission of bringing into the world perfect offspring 
that like himself had the potential of living forever (Genesis 1:28). However,
he failed when he disobeyed and through his sin brought death upon his self
and his offspring (Romans 5:12). In fact Adam & Eve would still be alive
now if they had not sinned and the earth would be a paradise. Jesus was
brought into the world as a perfect human like Adam, through his ransom
sacrifice he could use the value of it and buy back what Adam had lost
(Mark 10:45). There have been only two perfect humans that have walked
the earth that is Adam & Jesus.

Jesus introduced a wonderful theme as found in the Bible that is the hope
of everlasting life (John 4:14). An invitation to partake of this living
water goes out to everyone and it's free (Revelation 22:17). Those who
accept it invite others to partake.

Primarily, Jesus uses the value of his ransom to enable his brothers to
become kings and priests of God's heavenly kingdom that will in turn
rule over mankind here on earth, "'Worthy art thou to take the scroll and
to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst *ransom* men
for God from every tribe and people and nation, and hast made them a
kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.'" Revelation
5:9,10 RSV. Once this kingdom begins ruling over the earth then Jesus will
accomplish the commission original given to Adam & Eve in that he will bring 
their offspring to perfection (or life so that death is eradicated) on a
paradise earth. For as garanteed in Revelation 21:3-5 "death shall be no more".

As the second Adam, Jesus will accomplish God's original purpose for the 
earth and mankind.

Phil.
	

    RE: .8 Phil,
    
    			Yes!  Jesus is the finisher of our faith.  Man
    (mankind) was not designed as a sinner.  And yet God had to give his
    son as a perfect sacrifice.  So...Adam was a perfect man until....
    and he was justified by being sinless during that time.  Is being
    sinless, earning salvation by works?  
    
    
    Dave

re .9

Dave,

Looks like we are in agreement in somethings.

;Is being sinless, earning salvation by works?

Not sure how one should answer this, when Adam was sinless what was it
that he needed saving from (salvation)?. As regards Jesus it was injustice
that a righteous man should see sheol, so it was how Jesus lived his
life meant that God of justice had to resurrect him (Galations 1:1).

However, when Jesus brings faithful mankind into a sinless state there
will be no need for salvation because death will be no more.

Phil.

Salvation is not and never has been simply an intellectual
exercise.  "Even the demons believe and tremble."

No, salvation requires much more than a *knowledge* of what
is required.  It also requires *acceptance*; a life-changing
acceptance that God confirms by bestowing the Holy Spirit
and changing us from old to new (2 Cor 4:5).

In regards to truth (referred to as doctrine in .7), those
who are saved and seek God are moved towards God's truth
over time.  Consistently denying truth (much like consistently
doing evil) is evidence that salvation has not occurred.

Collis

    Actually the biggest dilemma with the Adam/Jesus analogy is that Adam
    is clearly an archetype.  A metaphor, a symbol.  To call Jesus a second
    Adam to me makes questionable his historic existance.
    
    Patricia

    
    Did Paul write the following, and if so, how would you all interpret
    it?
    
    	"Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling."
    
    Cindy

re Note 873.12 by AKOCOA::FLANAGAN:

>     Actually the biggest dilemma with the Adam/Jesus analogy is that Adam
>     is clearly an archetype.  A metaphor, a symbol.  To call Jesus a second
>     Adam to me makes questionable his historic existance.
    
        I don't think so.

        It is a logical fallacy to conclude that is something is a
        symbol then that something is ONLY a symbol.  It is also a
        fallacy to conclude that if something is like some symbol,
        then that thing is also ONLY a symbol.  (If this were true it
        would make the writer's task exceedingly difficult, since
        many forms of literary comparison would be inapplicable to
        "real" things.)

        To me, Adam the archetype, Adam the symbol is written of in
        the Bible precisely because it illustrates and amplifies
        Jesus' significance, not to reduce Jesus' significance.

        Bob

RE:             <<< Note 873.13 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "Planet Crayon" >>>

    
   > Did Paul write the following, and if so, how would you all interpret
   > it?
    
    >	"Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling."
    
    

    Phillipians 2:12 "Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as
    in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own
    salvation in fear and trembling". 

     this passasge does not refer to salvation in the eternal sense, but in the
     present.  The church in Philipi had divisions and discord and Paul was 
     telling the church to work together to rid themselves of them.  He was
     saying they needed to be careful to obey Christ as he (Paul) was no longer
     going to be there.  If the church was going to stay together, they had to
     be united in order to be saved from the divisions and discord. 

     I believe "fear and trembling" refers to reverance and respect for Christ.

     One cannot take this passage to mean that they can "work out their own 
     eternal salvation", particularly in the context of the letter.




    Jim

    It suggests that salvation is a process rather than an event.
    
    Richard
    

    
    Thanks for the supporting text, Jim.
    
    I don't really believe in the OSAS (once saved, always saved) idea, and
    tend to believe more along the lines of what Richard wrote - that it is
    an ongoing process, and not just a one time thing.  So given this, I
    would read that eternal salvation is a part of the passage as well.
    
    Cindy

 If one is to accept that this passage refers to eternal salvation, that
 one can "work out their own salvation", that seems to leave Acts 4:12
 as meaningless "..for their is none other name under Heaven and earth
 by which we must be saved" (referring to Jesus).  


 How does one "work out their own salvation"?  I'd be interested in seeing
 supporting scripture.



 Jim

Note 873.18 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready"

> If one is to accept that this passage refers to eternal salvation, that
> one can "work out their own salvation", that seems to leave Acts 4:12
> as meaningless "..for their is none other name under Heaven and earth
> by which we must be saved" (referring to Jesus).

Gosh, I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.

But then, I'm no expert on matters of theology or Scripture.  I could be
wrong.

Peace,
Richard

re Note 873.18 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

>  If one is to accept that this passage refers to eternal salvation, that
>  one can "work out their own salvation", that seems to leave Acts 4:12
>  as meaningless "..for their is none other name under Heaven and earth
>  by which we must be saved" (referring to Jesus).  

        No it doesn't -- things like this aren't always, or even
        usually, an either-or situation.

        There is a lot of Scripture to back that a person can't "save
        themselves" -- some aspect of their salvation can only be
        accomplished by God -- and there is a lot of Scripture behind
        a claim that a person who does nothing to pursue their
        salvation is lost.

        It is clear that salvation requires both God's act and the
        person's act.

        (The weird thing is that liberals never dismiss the
        importance of faith, whereas conservatives (well,
        non-catholic conservatives anyway) always try to lower the
        works to a level of insignificance with regard to
        salvation.)

        Bob

    re Note 873.18 by CSLALL::HENDERSON

    I don't see the two concepts as mutually exclusive. Just as there many
    rivers -- each following its own path -- reach a single ocean, so too
    we must work out our own personal path to Christ and salvation. 

    Just another example of how a heretic might perceive the message of the
    Bible. :^)
    
    
    	Eric

    I believe that there are many paths that lead to the one path.  Each
    individual's uniquenesses creates an equally unique path to the one
    Path that leads to salvation...
    
    The misconception is that our individual paths *are* the path to
    salvation, which would deem self as being the savior.  Our individual
    paths [childhood upbringing, trials, tribulations, hurts,
    experiences,etc.] should lead into the ONE PATH of Jesus Christ.  That
    path is Salvation.  Many are on a path but have gotten lost and never
    reach Christ... Many are close and running parallel to Christ's path,
    but are not *on* it....  
    
    Yes, there are many paths to Christ, but there is only one path to
    Salvation... and this is through Jesus Christ...
    
    Ephesians 4
    
      5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
      6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and
         in you all.
      7  But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure
         of the gift of Christ.
    
    

Note 2 important pieces of Philippians before 2:12 - 

1. The letter is written to Christians (1:1).  These people are already
   saved.
2. 2:12 starts with "Therefore..." meaning that what came before is very
   tied to the current verse.

The preceding section urges the Christians to consider others, love others,
be like Jesus.  This is the process of what folks call "sanctification",
or growing in your faith, growing up into Jesus, whatever.  "Work it out"
is a call to struggle, fight, work at becoming like Jesus.  The Greek for
"with fear and trembling", as I recall, has a meaning along the lines of
"this is really, really important, and you would dread to displease God
in it" - not "oh-oh, he's gonna get me if I don't do this right".

Also, 2:13 is part of the same sentence, "for it is God who works in you
to will and to act according to his good purpose."  supporting the thought
that you are working to be more like Jesus (God), and also, comfortingly
in such a huge task, God is working in you to accomplish it.

Praise be to God.

-Steve

    re 873.23 by CFSCTC::HUSTON

    Good explanation, Steve. Thanks.

    	Eric

    
    >Did Paul write the following, and if so, how would you all interpret
    >it?
    
    >	"Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling."
    
He sure did.

It means that one of two things:

  1)  We've been saved.  We should therefore work out the
      actual and practical consequences of that salvation
      (love and good works).

  2)  There are several types of salvation discussed in the
      Bible.  There is the instantenous salvation that transforms
      one into a new creation, indwells the individual with the
      Holy Spirit and immediately reconciles the individual with
      God for eternity.  The process of sanctification (growing
      in godliness) is also sometimes referred to as salvation.
      This verse could be referring to the process of sanctification.

Collis

re .12

Patricia,

Jesus believed the Genesis account for he said "'Have you not read that he
who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, "For
this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his
wife, and the two shall become one"?'" Matthew 19:4,5 RSV

To Jesus, Adam & Eve had been real persons.

;To call Jesus a second Adam to me makes questionable his historic existance.

You can look at it that way. But you might as well discount all those  
in the lineage mentioned in Luke 3:23-38. Many believe that David &
Abraham were real persons so why not Adam also.

Denial of Adam implies doubt as to the identity of Jesus, is a Messiah
required? if so for what reasons?. 

Phil.

    If Jesus were fully human, then he too may have accepted the mythical world
    view of the day which included believing in the Garden of Eden mythology as
    real.  You do raise a great question though.  If Jesus is fully human
    and fully Divine does he have human knowledge regarding creation or
    Divine knowledge regarding creation.  Did he acquire knowledge the same
    way other humans did or was he omniscient as a human?  If omniscient
    then how could he be fully human?  Great paradox.  I love paradox.
    
    
    Patricia

re Note 873.27 by AKOCOA::FLANAGAN:

>     If Jesus were fully human, then he too may have accepted the mythical world
>     view of the day which included believing in the Garden of Eden mythology as
>     real.  

        Even if one believes that a particular story is
        non-historical, it doesn't prevent the use of that story to
        explain or illustrate statements that one makes.

        People do that all the time.

        Jesus used (apparently) non-historical stories all the time.

        Bob

re .27

 Patricia,

 It's not a paradox really for Jesus had a pre-human existence. No doubt
 his memory returned to him when he was baptised and the holy spirit 
 descended upon him (Matthew 3:16). The angels would have also witnessed 
 the creation of Adam & Eve and they applauded God's work (Job 38:7).

 A short answer for it's time to go home here in the UK.

 Phil.

    so then he was only fully human before his baptism?

re .30

  Patricia,

  Sorry I dont understand? are those that receive the holy spirit not fully
  human?. God's holy spirit could have helped Jesus to recall to mind
  what he experienced in the past before he was sent to earth as a
  human.

  Phil.

    Luke's account of Jesus as a young boy...
    
    "Why have you worried about me?  Surely you would wish me to be about
    my Father's business."
    
    Jesus knew his position even back then.  His Baptism in the Jordan was 
    the beginning of His ministry.
    
    -Jack

Note 873.32 AIMHI::JMARTIN

>   Luke's account of Jesus as a young boy...
    
>   "Why have you worried about me?  Surely you would wish me to be about
>   my Father's business."

My parents tell me I made a remarkably similar statement when I was a child.
But am I the Savior, the Messiah, the Christ?  No way!

Richard