Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

>    By example, Christ calls us to self-denial and suffering.
>    
>    In what ways do we as Christians respond to this call?
    
    By working for Digital instead of some fun place that pays well. :-)
    
    				Alfred

    Once again I agree with Alfred. :-)

	Who was it that said "for me to live is Christ, to die is gain?"
	I think that staying on earth rather then being with God is self-denial
	and all too often of late suffering. But we have work to do here so
	we stay and do it.

	My late grandmother wrote me once that she had lived a long life
	and looked forward to going to be with the Lord. Still she felt it
	her obligation to stick around as long as God wanted her here.

				Alfred

    Paul said it.. :-)

    .3
    
    P.S.
    
    My Grandmother who is now 91 tells me that everytime we speak.
    
    When asking her about the condition of the world today, families,
    gangs, violence, she responds she *never* dreamed that life would
    become such a tragedy... her life was full, loving and rewarding. 
    She's proud of raising a Granddaughter who has survived this world's
    troubles... please note the word survive, not escape.  She was talking
    about me, for she took me in and gave me a home when I was 2 years old. 
    I owe a praying, caring Grandma more then I can ever reconcile.
    
    Nancy

    Am I hearing that staying alive is a form of Christian self-denial
    or is it my imagination?  Is that all Paul meant when he *also* said
    (in the same letter, Philippians) that we've been "given the privilege
    of suffering for Christ?"
    
    Richard
    

It means to do what God wants rather than what we want.

It means to deny oneself for the sake of the Gospel.

For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his
life?

What does it profit a man if he gains an apple but loses paradise?

/john

    I have to agree, also, with Alfred. Life with DEC, today, is a living
    Hell for me. 
    
    Re: .7
    
    Nice phrases...but...what examples can you bring out of life today?
    
    Me? I try to help out in the Church, try to be a decent father...
    most times I fell that I fall short of the goal.
    
    Marc H.

    re  Note 851.7 by COVERT::COVERT

    I think that sums it up nicely.

    To Marc's question:

    We (speaking from a man's perspective) deny other women and remain
    faithful to our wives.

    We go to our kid's basketball game instead of the golf course.

    We give to those who are in need. Whether it is donating clothing or
    food to a shelter, or sharing part of our income with a charity.

    We go out of our way to help other, even when it's "inconvenient".
    Helping the old lady get her shopping cart through the snow-filled
    parking lot, or offering your place in the checkout line to the woman
    who's wrestling with here 2yr old.

    These are little things, sure, but I believe that spreading around a
    bunch of little things is important.

    Eric 

    How about offering your home to a stranger?
    
    How about giving 50% of your income to relieving involuntary
    human suffering?
    
    How about fasting in solidarity with the people of Sarajevo?
    
    Richard
    

        Richard,

    	Answer the question for you self. Others have. Thanks.

    			Alfred

    BTW, if I were to do any of the things in .10 I would not mention
    it here. And I may have but it would not be something to boast of.

    .11 Alfred,
    
    I take it by your answer that the suggestions in .10, radical as
    they might seem, are within the realm of genuinely Christian self-denial
    and suffering?
    
    Also, where does "hiding a lamp under a basket" end and "boasting"
    begin?  How can you be a light to the world and keep that light hidden?
    
    Shalom,
    Richard

 I strive to be a testimony to my faith in Christ in all I do, when I'd
 rather be satisfying my own selfish desires.  





 Jim

    .13
    
    Honest, succinct and accurate... Thanks Jim.  Me too. :-)

        
>    Also, where does "hiding a lamp under a basket" end and "boasting"
>    begin?  How can you be a light to the world and keep that light hidden?

    I believe that Jesus teaches a certain amount of balance. In the case
    of self denial and suffering the balance is between doing it for the
    attention and doing it for the purposes of serving God's needs. Does
    one point out their denial and suffering to encourage others to do
    likewise or to draw attention to "how good" they are? 

    This is like public prayer in some ways. You'll remember that Jesus 
    rebuked the people who prayed loudly in the center of things to attract 
    attention to how "pious" he was while praising the man who prayed humbling 
    in the corner? Sometimes it's the why not the what that is important.
    Few would use this story to say that Jesus was against public prayer
    and clearly public prayer has its place.

    I try to live my life as God leads me to. Sometimes that means self
    denial, sometimes not. Sometimes it leads me to speak about what I
    do and sometimes not. If I do good that involves self denial then I
    hope others who do see it will see it as Jesus in me. If I call
    unneeded attention to it then I think that may (or may not) lessen
    the effect. I don't list good deeds just to make sure everyone knows
    about them. God always knows and that's who counts the most.

    			Alfred
    

    re Note 851.10 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
    
    > How about giving 50% of your income to relieving involuntary human
    > suffering?
    
    In my case this would result in *voluntary* human suffering :^)
    
    	Eric

    .15  We're in sync on this one, Alfred.
    
    Richard
    

    .16  Don't let that stop you from considering it.  When Jesus
    told his followers to take up the cross, he didn't mean taking
    on something merely inconvenient or giving up some small indulgence.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    RE Note 851.18 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE

    > When Jesus told his followers to take up the cross, he didn't mean
    > taking on something merely inconvenient or giving up some small
    > indulgence.

    That passage was significant to the culture of the time and is
    irrelevant to today's modern world....

    No, huh. Well, would you believe I already give 50... no 80% of my
    income to charity. Yeah, that's the ticket.

    :^) :^) 
    
    (In my best John "the Pathological Liar" Lovett voice)

    .19  Though you've approached it with humor, I think your underlying
    message is quite a serious one, Eric.
    
    I think the average Christian is soft and too afraid to accept risks
    of the depth that Jesus challenges us with.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

RE:        <<< Note 851.20 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "I'm 2 sexy 4 my chair" >>>

       
   > I think the average Christian is soft and too afraid to accept risks
   > of the depth that Jesus challenges us with.
    
    

 Care to elaborate?    

    RE: Note 851.20 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE

    > I think the average Christian is soft and too afraid to accept risks of
    > the depth that Jesus challenges us with.

    True. But then again the Apostles didn't go from fishermen to martyrs
    overnight... and the *knew* Jesus personally (I mean in the physical
    sense people, don't get metaphoric on me). While I may be engaging in a
    bit of personal rationalization, I think it is a *very* unique and
    rare person who can deny themselves so totally as to give half of their
    income and worldly possessions to the poor. Meanwhile, I will work on
    the little things and hope that I make the world a little better for my
    efforts.
    
    Eric 

    .22  Agreed.  Transformations sometimes take a very long time.
    But some never even try and never see a need to stretch in any
    significant way.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    > I think the average Christian is soft and too afraid to accept risks of
    > the depth that Jesus challenges us with.

Quite true. 

    .21  Maybe Collis (.24) could elaborate, also.
    
    It's just that whenever I see self-denial and sacrifice being put
    into practice, it's usually not anything very substantial.  I'm sorry,
    but I just don't see giving up an occasional meal out, giving up
    chocolate, or giving up lipstick as being more than a token exercise.
    
    Now for some who perhaps have no experience in self-denial, these may
    well provide a starting point.  It just seems to me that there are
    hardly any Christians who've been able to stretch much beyond such
    inconsequential sacrifices.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

Richard,

Have you ever considered that one of the precious things that a Christian
can give is of their own time?. Especially in this world where most persons
use all their spare time in search of pleasures, which incidentally is what 
people would be like during the "last days" 2 Timothy 3:1-5.

Btw, there is nothing wrong in wholesome entertainment in fact it is
important for families. However, Jesus showed that one needs to put 
balance in ones life by putting kingdom interests first (compare 
Matthew 6:33).

Phil.

Note 851.26

>Have you ever considered that one of the precious things that a Christian
>can give is of their own time?

Yes.  Time is a gift that even I can give.  The gift of time requires no
talent or abilities or wealth of material resourses.  It requires presence
and caring, and even I can give that.

Richard

Note 857.5

>	Thirdly: There are so many Christians of my experience - and I
>	have seen signs of it in CP too - who seem to believe that
>	suffering is a prerequisite to salvation. 'We all have to bear
>	our cross' is a symptomatic phrase. I regard such an attitude
>	to be not only wrong and contrary to the will of God, but to be
>	positively destructive. Unfortunately, I have seen this position
>	taken by Christians of all shades.

This is one thing I struggle with, too, Derek.  I don't like suffering
and I don't like to have others suffer.

I don't completely understand it, but I have come to believe that we do
a disservice to the gospel if we exclude self-denial and suffering.
But I'm not talking about suffering for its own sake.  And I'm not talking
about suffering that has been imposed on someone.  I'm talking about
*voluntarily* taking up something worthy that may entail risk, discomfort,
and deep anxiety, done for the sake of others.

What bothers me even more are the Christians who deemphasize the cost of
discipleship; that it's painless, that it's easy, that that's all there is
to it.

Shalom,
Richard

re .27

Richard,

That's good that you feel that way. Colossians 4:5 NWT reads "Go on 
walking in wisdom to those on the outside, buying out the opportune time 
for yourselves." (Also compare Ephesians 5:16) this "buying out the 
opportune time" will cost the Christian in other ways. For example, one
may decide to workless or part-time so that one can spend more time in
kingdom interests (Matthew 6:33) which means ones wage is reduced also.
It may be that the persons wage is only enough to cover for the essentials
or needs in life, the wants are put a side. This means that the person
cannot give 50% of their wealth, but they give of themselves instead.

The same principle of "buying out the opportune time" applies to ones
family also.  

The RSV renders this "making the most of time", it is something one should
give serious attention to. Too many people become couch patatoes these
days.

Another point I would like to make is that giving 50% of ones wage will 
be worthless before God if the families needs are not met. Also setting 
a figure of 50% is wrong for contributions should be given willingly and 
not under compulsion for "God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7


Phil.