Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

 What do you say?

		The Peace of God, it is no peace,
		But strife sowed in the sod.
		Yet brothers pray for but one peace,
		The marvellous Peace of God.

From a sermon of Bernard, Abbot of Clairvaux [1153]:

"The goodness and humanity of God our Saviour have appeared in our midst."
We thank God for the many consolations he has given us during this sad exile
of our pilgrimage here on earth.  Before the Son of God became human his
goodness was hidden, for God's mercy is eternal, but how could such
goodness be recognized?  It was promised, but it was not experienced, and
as a result few believed in it.  "Often and in many ways the Lord used to
speak through the prophets."  Among other things, God said: "I think
thoughts of peace and not affliction." But what did humans respond,
thinking thoughts of affliction and knowing nothing of peace?  They said:
"Peace, peace, there is no peace."  This response made the "angels of peace
weep bitterly," saying: "Lord, who has believed our message?"  But now they
believe because they see with their own eyes, and because "God's testimony
has now become even more credible."  He has gone so far as to "pitch his
tent in the sun" so even the dimmest eyes see him.

Notice that peace is not promised but sent to us; it is no longer deferred,
it is given; peace is not prophesied but achieved.  It is as if God the
Father sent upon the earth a purse full of his mercy.  This purse was the
price of our redemption.  It was only a small purse, but it was very full.
As the Scriptures tell us: "A little child has been given to us, but in him
dwells the fullness of the divine nature."  The fullness of time brought
with it the fullness of divinity.  God's Son came in the flesh so that
mortals could see and recognize God's kindness.  When God reveals his
humanity, his goodness cannot possbily remain hidden.  To show his
humanity, I say, not Adam's -- that is, not such as he had before his fall.

How could he have shown his mercy more clearly than by taking on himself
our condition?  For our sake the Word of God became as grass.  What better
proof could he have given of his love?  Scripture says: "Lord, what are we
that you are mindful of us; why does your heart go out to us?"  The
incarnation teaches us how much God cares for us and what he thinks and
feels about us.  We should stop thinking of our own sufferings and remember
what he has suffered.  Let us think of all the Lord has done for us, and
then we shall realize how his goodness appears through his humanity.  The
lesser he became through his human nature, the greater was his goodness;
the more he lowered himself for me, the dearer he is to me.  "The goodness
and humanity of God our Saviour have appeared," says the Apostle.

Truly great and manifest are the goodness and humanity of God.  He has
given us a most wonderful proof of his goodness by adding humanity to his
own divine nature.

From a sermon of Leo the Great, Bishop of Rome [461]

Although the state of infancy, which the majesty of the Son of God did
not disdain to assume, developed with the passage of time into the
maturity of humanity, and although after the triumph of the passion and
the resurrection all his lowly acts undertaken on our behalf belong to
the past, nevertheless today's feast renews for us the sacred beginning of
Jesus' life, his birth from the Virgin Mary.  In the very act in which we
are reverencing the birth of our Saviour, we are also celebrating our own
new birth.  For the birth of Christ is the origin of the Christian people;
and the birthday of the head is also the birthday of the body.

Though each and every individual occupies a definite place in this body
to which he has been called, and though all the progeny of the Church
is differentiated and marked with the passage of time, nevertheless, as
the whole community of the faithful, once begotten in the baptismal font,
was crucified with Christ in the passion, raised up with him in the
resurrection and at the ascension placed at the right hand of the Father,
so too it is born with him in this Nativity.

For all believers regenerated in Christ, no matter in what part of the
whole world they may be, break with that ancient way of life that derives
from original sin, and by rebirth are transformed into new persons. 
Henceforth they are reckoned to be of the stock, not of their earthly
father, but of Christ, who became Son of Man precisely so that they could
become children of God; for unless in humility he had come down to us, none
of us by our own merits could ever go up to him.

Therefore the greatness of the gift which he has bestowed on us demands an
appreciation proportioned to its excellence; for blessed Paul the Apostle
truly teaches: "We have received not the spirit of this world, but the
Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on
us by God."  The only way that he can be worthily honored by us is by the
presentation to him of that which he has already given us.

But what can we find in the treasure of the Lord's bounty more in keeping
with the glory of this feast than that peace which was first announced by
the angelic choir on the day of his birth?  For that peace, from which the
children of God spring, sustains love and mothers unity; it refreshes the
blessed and shelters eternity; its characteristic function and special
blessing is to join to God those whom it separates from this world.

Therefore, may those "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the
flesh nor of the will of humankind, but of God," offer to the Father their
harmony as children united in peace; and may all those whom he has adopted
as his members meet in the firstborn of the new creation who came not to do
his own will but the will of the one who sent him; for the grace of the
Father has adopted as heirs neither the contentious nor the dissident, but
those who are one in thought and love.  The hearts and minds of those who
have been reformed according to one and the same image should be in harmony
with one another.

    I for one do believe Isaiah 9:6 is prophecying of Jesus.  As a point of
    interest or discussion, I believe Isaiah 9:6 is a dual prophecy,
    foretelling both the first and the second coming.  See below.
    
    "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given (1st coming)
    and the governments of the world will rest upon his shoulders. (2nd
    coming.  And His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Heavenly Father, Prince of Peace."
    
    I imagine this passage must be blasphemous to some!!!
    
    -Jack

.1

> What do you say?

I say, "Yes."

I also say we've not understood the nature of peace.  We've not understood
that, like Christ, there is not way to peace, that peace is the way.

And ever since the church jumped into to bed with the state at the time
of Constantine, only handfuls of Christians have continued to take an
uncompromising witness regarding the use of deadly force against another
human being.

There's more, but this is a start.

Richard

re: Note 837.6 by Jack

>    "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given (1st coming)
>    and the governments of the world will rest upon his shoulders. (2nd
>    coming.  And His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
>    Heavenly Father, Prince of Peace."
    
Jack, I find yours an interesting grammatical interpretation which seems to 
hinge on the word "and".

"I have been given a beach ball which is big and green."

Do I have one ball which is big and green, 
or do I have two balls, one is big and the other is green?

Peace,

Jim

	Isaiah 9:6b RSV reads "and his name will be called ..... Prince of Peace."
	So this is a title that the Messiah will be given in the future, for
	only he will bring about lasting, in fact everlasting, peace. Mankind's
	own attempts at bringing lasting peace is futile, the reason behind 
	this can be understood if one looks at the main causes of war. Would 		
	someone like to discuss the main causes of war?.

	Isaih 11:10 RSV tells us "In that day the root of Jesse shall stand	
	as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his 
	dwellings shall be glorious." So the Messiah would stand as sign,
	to whom peoples of all nations would turn. Which ties in Isaiah
	2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3, for through Jesus the Messiah God's holy
	mountain or "true worship" was elevated above other mountains "worship
	of other god's or idols". Those who followed Jesus' teachings on "true
	worship" would not learn war anymore. Instead, his followers were
	assigned and taught to fight spiritual warfare and not carnal (compare 
	2 Corinthians 10:3,4, Ephesians 6:11-17). Hence, the apostle Peter 
	admonished the whole association of brothers and sisters to "be found 
	by him without spot or blemish, and at peace." with each other 
	(2 Peter 3:14b RSV)

	What a pity it would be, if one who professed to be Christian had
	put their trust in weapons and then found themselves in direct
	opposition to the "Prince of Peace" when he comes to totally destroy 
	all weapons of war and thus bring an end to war to the extremity of the 
	earth (compare Psalm 46:9, 37:9-11).

	This is the time to search out "true worship", by accepting the invitation
	"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD," Isaiah 2:2-4	and
	learn how to live peaceably with people of other nations. 

	To summarize, as the Prince of Peace, Jesus will bring and end to
	wars that dog mankind. For those who want to live in a peaceful
	conditions, Jesus is a sign for people to stream to God's holy
	mountain. Those that accept this invitation display peaceable
	fruit, for this reason their leader Jesus was able to make the
	statement "By this all men will know that you are my disciples,
	if you have love for one another." The principle is to lay down
	ones life rather than take the life of another, that is ensuring
	one is not pitted against ones own spiritual brother/sister no 
	matter what their national or ethnic backgrounds are.

	Phil.  
	
	

  >"I have been given a beach ball which is big and green."

  >Do I have one ball which is big and green, 
  >or do I have two balls, one is big and the other is green?

Easy grammatical answer.

You have "a" ball.  To insert "a beach ball which is" before
green is highly unorthodox (and would never occur to me in
reading the sentence).  It's even hard to say the sentence in
such a way as to produce this meaning.

I'd say that, from the perspective of a normal English speaking
person, that this alternative explanation of what the sentence
means is so slight that it can be ignored.  Don't you think
so?

Collis

re .9

My quotation of scripture ...	

"By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for
one another." is taken from John 13:35 RSV and if you look at the context
it shows one would be prepared to lay down ones life for another	
brother just as Jesus did.  This would include as Richard as mentioned
not being prepared to comprise the principle of self-sacrificing love
when it comes to living peaceably.

Phil.

re: Note 837.10 by Collis "DCU fees?  NO!!!" 

 >You have "a" ball.  To insert "a beach ball which is" before
 >green is highly unorthodox (and would never occur to me in
 >reading the sentence).  It's even hard to say the sentence in
 >such a way as to produce this meaning.

I chose the structure to be similar to the quote Jack supplied.

 >I'd say that, from the perspective of a normal English speaking
 >person, that this alternative explanation of what the sentence
 >means is so slight that it can be ignored.  Don't you think
 >so?

No, I don't.

Peace,

Jim

    Jim:
    
    I brought this up as a point of interest and believe I could be wrong
    in my interpretation.  I do believe this however, I believe Jesus came
    into the world as a child, born into poverty.  I believe the
    governments of the world did not rest on his shoulders in his first
    coming because he seemed to have chosen not to do it this way.  
    
    In Revelation 18 I believe, we see him coming like a blaze of fire with
    judgement in his eyes.  He is definitely not a child here.  He is in
    his glorified form for the world to behold.  This is when he will reign
    in his second coming.   
    
    I therefore believe this to be a dual prophecy.  There are other
    examples of dual prophecy in scripture.   There is Isaiah 7:14 which
    we've been discussing in the Mary being a virgin topic.  Also, if you
    recall when Herod had all the children of Bethlehem slaughtered, wasn't
    that the fulfillment of a prophesy, something about how Rachael will
    not be comforted, because her children are no more.  
    
    God also provides parellel signs.  Remember how Jesus said, "...No sign
    shall be given except the sign of Jonah..."  Three days in a fish for
    Jonah, three days in the earth for Jesus.   For Isaiah 9:6 to be
    considered a dual prophecy is not unreasonable!!
    
    -Jack

    .11
    
    Geez I agree with you!  Just memorized this scripture last night with
    my son and posted it prior to reading your note in YUKON::CHRISTIAN.
    
    :-)
    
           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< CHRISTIAN-V7 >-
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Note 387.9                       What a concept!                          9 of 9
JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze"    27 lines   2-FEB-1994 13:09
           -< If we did as the Bible Commanded, Govt would perish! >-
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    As I thought about this note, last night I memorized some verses with
    my oldest son from I John:
    
    Hereby we perceive the love God because he hath laid down his life for
    us, as we ought to lay down our lives for the Brethren.
    
    Whoso hath this worlds goods and seeth his brother have need and
    shutteth up the bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of
    God?
    
    My little children let us not live in word, neither in tongue but in
    deed and in truth.
    
    As I pondered the meaning of this verse with my son, it became
    evidently clear, that God requires us to give all that we have, even
    our lives for the Brethren.  If I see a brother/sister in need and I
    don't give [proportionately to what I have] towards that need, I am
    quenching the love of God from flowing through my life.
    
    Inversely, we KNOW that Jesus loves us because he laid down his life
    for us... if we want someone in our lives [husband, wife, child, etc],
    we must die to self and give our lives to serve them.
    
    In another note perhaps I'll express how this is helping my
    relationship with my ex-husband.
    
    Nancy
    

RE .14

	Nancy,

	Well that's good because it would appear that we harmonize with
	Scripture. But love, as I believe you know, should be expressed
	not just to ones brother or sister but also ones neighbour (pls
	note that the laying down of ones life for a brother was a new 
	command with only the whole association of brothers in  mind).
	Ones neighbour could be anyone even our perceived enemies, as
	brought out in the parable of the Good Samaritan (the Jews hated
	the Samaritans). Jesus taught the principle of "love your 
	neighbour" in the sermon on the mount. He introduced it this
	way:  

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbour and hate
your enemy.'" Matthew 5:43 RSV

	Using the term "You have heard" meant that Jesus was pointing out
	that this was an "Oral Tradition" rather than a Biblical teaching
	(eg "It is written"). So the Jews were taught to love fellow Jews
	but hate their enemies, that is the Samaritans or the Gentiles.
	Now Jesus introduces a new thinking on God's Word and his
	followers would have to change their minds regarding who was
	their neighbour...

"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute
you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes
the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and
on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?
Do not even tax collectors do the same?  And if you salute only your
brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles
do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your Father is perfect."
Matthew 5-44-48 RSV

	Love which encompasses the principle of not taking anothers life, 
	even if it meant loosing your own, would be shown to ones
	neighbour that is all peoples of the earth. Even if they would be 
	ones own literal enemy. To fight in carnal warfare would mean
	breaking ones integrity when it comes to the principle "Love
	your neighbour". Today Jehovah God permits wickedness on the 
	earth, one reason is that he wants all to "reach repentance"
	but his season of "good will" will not last indefinitely. But
	it is God who will render an account on the wicked ones, and
	Jesus' followers would not presume that they are his executional
	forces for this would be presumptiousness on their part. 2 Peter 
	3:9 RSV reads

"The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is 
forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all 
should reach repentance."

	Jesus' followers should have the same mentality, helping 
	interested ones (their neighbour) to "reach repentance". Spiritual 
	warfare should be their main concern and carnal warfare is 
	definitely not an expression of love.

	Phil.

    837.15
    
>	Well that's good because it would appear that we harmonize with
>	Scripture. But love, as I believe you know, should be expressed
>	not just to ones brother or sister but also ones neighbour (pls
>	note that the laying down of ones life for a brother was a new 
>	command with only the whole association of brothers in  mind).

I disagree that brothers is a generic term for all in the world.  God's 
word commands that birth must take place into the family of God.  
Brethren is strictly referring to those that are BORN AGAIN...not by 
water, but by Spirit.  The conception of Christ was through the Holy 
Spirit and thus a Savior was BORN into this WORLD so that MAN might be 
saved.  It is through the quickening of the human spirit by the Holy 
Spirit at inception of Christ that a re-birth takes place and we find 
ourselves with brand new siblings with which to rival. :-)

>"But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute
>you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes
>the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and
>on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?
>Do not even tax collectors do the same?  And if you salute only your
>brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles
>do the same? You, therefore, must be perfect, as your Father is perfect."
>Matthew 5-44-48 RSV

I agree wholeheartedly the *love* must be shown not only to the BRETHREN 
but to the world.  However, the context in which each of these verses 
were written are entirely different and they do not conflict, they 
compliment one another.  

The truth the Christ was applying was to breakdown the holier then thou 
crowd [pharisees] and believing Jews that were still operating under the 
law [separation and that the Gentiles were unclean].

The passage I quoted was to a church that had neglected their own.  
In the church today or the Christian community today both sides of this 
spectrum are still represented.  God's word is applicable today as it 
was when it was written.

If Christians would take care of their own, the BRETHREN, and love the 
world, then there would be MORE BRETHREN for which to lay down their 
lives.  In the passage I quoted from I John and the passage referenced 
in Matthew agrees wholeheartedly on this one thing:  "If we do not 
practice love, then the love of God does not flow through us and we lose 
the essence of God in our lives.

In His Love,
Nancy
    

re .16

	Nancy,

	Nice note, however I must point out it was not my intention to use
	brothers as a generic term for all in the world. In my reply what
	was meant by the term "brothers" was Jesus' sheep, that is those
	that listen to him and follow. Where we differ, is that all must
	be born again. Just to explain the Jehovah's Witness view, some 
	will be born again and rule as Kings and priests over the earth
	(Compare Revelation 5:9,10) and the other sheep will reside here
	on a paradise earth (Matthew 5:5, Psalm 37:9-11 & Proverbs 2:21).
	God's original purpose for a paradise earth, full of righteous 
	ones dwelling in it will be realised  (Isaiah 55:10-11, Genesis 
	1:28). My point about showing love to the world or ones neighbour, 
	was you can't express this through the sights of a rifle. Laying 
	down ones life for a brother is commendable, but it also may 
	involve integrity keeping as shown by the First Century 
	Christians.

	During this Century professing Christians have fought against 
	their fellow brother in other lands. It is obvious that these 
	ones were not listening and/or they were not being taught Jesus' 
	teachings.

	In my own mind, it would seem that one should search out those 
	that are listening. They should not be hard to find because they 
	will be inviting others to be taught by God in the ways of peace. 
	Also the invitation will be heard in the majority if not all the 
	nations of the earth (Compare Isaiah 2:2-4, Matthew 24:14, 
	28:19,20).
	
	Love is a strong bond of union and brings peace (Colossians 3:14).

	Phil.

    So what does the story of the Good Samaritan mean then?
    
    Was he a brother?
    
    Patricia

The story of the Good Samaritan does not dicuss who he serves
as god.  It does point out what we should each do; that we should
choose to love as he loved.

Of course it doesn't discuss who the Good Samaritan serves as God.

Samaritans practiced Judaism; they were looked down upon by the temple
establishment that had returned from exile because the Samaritans (who
had remained in Israel during the exilic period) had developed and
retained a form of Judaism that (ironically) is quite similar to the
rabbinic Judaism which was to emerge after the destruction of the
temple in 70 A.D.

/john

    The point of the story is that it is how we live our lives, how we
    demonstrate our love for God and our neighbors, not our Doctrines or
    legalism that are critical.

	Patricia,

	One point the Good Samaritan illustration shows is that one needs to 
	overcome the racial and ethnic predujices that we have if one
	is to show real love of neighbour. Not easy because we are brought
	up with many predjucies, but we need to work hard to overcome them
	by following God's example who is impartial to all men. 

	It can be quite easy to show love to ones own (there are exceptions
	though like the priest walking on the otherside of the road, he should
	have known better), but love should be shown no matter what their 
	racial or ethnic background is, especially to those related in the
	faith. If you hold a grudge or hatred then your not showing 
	neighbourly love.

	Phil.

	

    Phil,
    
    I agree
    
    Patricia

    Patricia,
    
    Why did you ask the question?  Was there a point that you were trying
    to make?  This is a serious question, I'm not poking at you or
    anything.  I'm trying to understand your pov.
    
    

There are places in the Bible where action is stressed.

There are places in the Bible where belief is stressed.

It is a relatively common argument to point to one and
say, "See, the other isn't important".  This may or may
not be what Patricia had in mind, but it sure pops into
my mind as to where this discussion is about to go.

Collis

Note 837.22

>	One point the Good Samaritan illustration shows is that one needs to
>	overcome the racial and ethnic predujices that we have if one
>	is to show real love of neighbour. Not easy because we are brought
>	up with many predjucies, but we need to work hard to overcome them
>	by following God's example who is impartial to all men. 

I agree, but I would not limit overcoming prejudice to racial and ethnic
prejudices.  Those who would, I consider legalistic.  Legalism is something
Jesus also spoke against.

Some limit "brethren" to the religiously like-minded and therefore treat
the brethren better than others (the neighbor, the stranger, the unbeliever,
the "gentile").  This, too, I consider an exercise in legalism.

Shalom,
Richard
	

re .26

Richard,

Well Jehovah's Witnesses limit their "brothers" to those who are "like-minded"
in their worship of their God (1 Corinthians 1:10). But I don't see this
as a form of legalism, as Jesus said to the Samaritan woman "But the hour is
coming and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in
spirit and truth." John 4:23 RSV. Why Jehovah's Witnesses live peaceably
is that they have unity with their brothers in other lands, there is no 
distrust. We know exactly how our brothers will act if called up for
military service against our own or any other country, that is they will 
not take up arms. This is reasurring and draws us closer together,
eventhough we might be thousands of miles apart. As Colossians 3:14,15 RSV
reads "And above all these put on love, which binds everything together
in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to
which indeed you were called in the one body." in the NWT Colossians 3:14
is rendered "But, besides all these things, [clothe yourselves with] love,
for it is a perfect bond of union." So it is "love" as based on God's Word
that draws and bonds "brothers" together rather like glue and is not a
form of "legalism". That is not to say one should not show love to others,
but the priority should be ones own (compare 1 John 3:13-18).


Phil.

	How will the Prince of Peace bring everlasting peace?.


	Phil. 

    Jesus was asked "Who is my neighbor?"  His repsonse in Luke was the
    story of the 'good Samaritan.'
    
    How do you think Jesus would answer if he was asked, "Who is my
    brother?"
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    
    Richard,
    
    I recall that Jesus did answer that when someone said his family
    (mother?) was here to see him, and he replied something like all
    are His family.
         
    Cindy

    .31  Jesus said those who do the will of God are his mother,
    brother and sister.
    
    Richard
    

.31  

  >Jesus said those who do the will of God are his mother,
  >brother and sister.

And what is the will of God?  John records in his Gospel that
Jesus said it is to believe in Jesus.

    .33  How tidy.
    
    I would dare to guess that the author(s) of John didn't intend the
    statement to encompass the whole of God's will.
    
    Richard
    

re .30
	Richard

	Jesus always used illustrations such as the Good Samaritan, this 
	was a good tool to help the person grasp it's understanding in a 
	way that the person could then answer their own question. After 
	saying the parable Jesus asked "'Which of these three, do you 
	think, proved neighbour to the man who fell among robbers?' He 
	said, 'The one showed mercy on him.' And Jesus said to him, "Go 
	and do likewise." Luke 	10:36,37 RSV.

	The Samaritans were hated by the Jews, but this person putting 
	preducjice a side understood who showed neighbourly love. So
	one needs to overcome built in predujice to perform as well as
	recognise acts of mercy, for neighbourly love trancends ethnic 
	or racial barriers.

	Ones neighbour can also be ones brother, that is someone who
	comes from a different land or ethnic background. To understand 
	this one needs to look at the different types of love mentioned 
	in the Greek Scriptures. Agape, is love based on principles 
	(principles as found in the bible) and is the love being shown 
	by the Good Samaritan in Jesus' parable that is if you find 
	someone in real need then help them. Philia (sp?) is love based 
	on brotherly affection such as shown between David and Jonathan. 
	So one might help someone in need (Agape) but one would not 
	necessarily show affection especially to someone who is wicked.

;How do you think Jesus would answer if he was asked, "Who is my brother?"

	Well from my own understanding Jesus has already answered this
	question, by the act of laying down his life so that others
	might have life in fact everlasting life. Jesus will be a 
	"brother" to all those who accept his ransom sacrifice. Brotherly 
	love is being prepared to lay down ones life for any of Jesus' 
	true followers (John 13:34,35). This would inclusive of their 
	neighbours/brothers in other lands. 

	Phil.    

   >I would dare to guess that the author(s) of John didn't intend the
   >statement to encompass the whole of God's will.
 
I agree.  Not a bad starting point, however.

Collis

	When we think of the Prince of Peace one might automatically
	think of an end to wars. But are there any other areas where
	Jesus will bring peace and security?.

	One thing that comes to my mind is peace in the family home. 
	What do you think? 

	Phil 

My wife and myself find delight in watching wildlife documentaries from
around the world. However, we often comment on how sad it is to see 
conflict in the animal kingdom. What has this to do with the Prince 
of Peace?. Well, there is a prophecy in the book of Isaiah showing that
peace will come to the animal kingdom no doubt under the direction of 
Prince of Peace...

"The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the
kid, and the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child
shall lead them. The cow and bear shall feed; their young shall lie down
together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The suckling child shall
play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on 
the adders den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for 
the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters of the 
very sea." Isaiah 11:6-9 RSV

How wonderful it will be for people to live their own real wildlife
documentaries, where there is peace not only in the animal kingdom but that
man would also live in harmony with it. Another different facet of peace 
that the earth will see under the direction of the Prince of Peace.

Phil.

re Note 837.38 by RDGENG::YERKESS:

> However, we often comment on how sad it is to see 
> conflict in the animal kingdom. What has this to do with the Prince 
> of Peace?. 

        But is it even conflict in a negative sense?

        I assume you're thinking about scenes where, for example, a
        lion or pack of hyenas track down, kill, and eat a
        wildebeest.

        But we "civilized" humans do it, both in the form of hunting
        and in the slaughter of cattle, and it is not considered
        "war".  Except for a rather small minority, it isn't even
        considered "hurting" or "destroying" (to use the verbs of the
        translation of Isaiah you quoted).


> How wonderful it will be for people to live their own real wildlife
> documentaries, where there is peace not only in the animal kingdom but that
> man would also live in harmony with it. Another different facet of peace 
> that the earth will see under the direction of the Prince of Peace.
  
        I'm not so sure that a lion which doesn't hunt is fully a
        lion.  Lions in zoos live without hunting or killing, and
        nobody would compare the experience of an animal in a zoo to
        a wildlife documentary, or, much better, real travel in the
        wilderness.

        Bob

        (I must be a flaming liberal -- here I go again questioning
        Scripture!  I have the feeling that every good evangelical
        reads this passage about the lion and the lamb and nods
        their head thinking "how wonderful!"  I don't.)

Bob,

I understand what your saying about humans killing to eat meat. However,
one might note that it was only after the flood that God allowed man
to eat meat. It is more than likely that humans will have to return to
being vegitarians.

Personally I would like to stroke a lion, but not until the Prince of
Peace begins fully ruling -).

>I'm not so sure that a lion which doesn't hunt is fully a lion. 

The prophecy of the lion eating straw does seem radical, but
I'm sure the the wildebeest would argue that it would not hurt the
lion to do so -).

Must go as it is time to go home here in the UK.

Phil.

    There's a story about the Garden of Eden written by Mark Twain
    in which he uses the strangely humorous image of a lion grazing
    on grass.
    
    I think it's called something like, "The Diary of Adam and Eve."
    
    Richard
    

  A problem dogging mankind is that of famine, it's something that the 
  western countries do not see often never the less it certainly is a major
  problem today. For true peace and security, the Prince of Peace would have
  to tackle this when he begins his governmental reign over the earth (Isaiah
  9:6).

  During Jesus' life ministry here on earth, he demonstrated that providing
  food for all will be no problem in his forth coming reign (Compare Matthew
  14:14-21; 15:32-38). Also lets consider God's promises "The earth itself 
  will certainly give it's produce." Psalm 67:6 NWT and "There will come to 
  be plenty of grain on the earth." Psalm 72:16 NWT. The Bible assures that 
  God "will certainly make for all peoples...a banquet of well-oiled dishes, 
  a banquet of wine kept on the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with 
  marrow." Isaiah 25:6 NWT.

  Under the rule of the Prince of Peace no one will say they are starving,
  certainly something to look forward too. Just think no more depressing
  news from famine stricken areas. 

  Interestingly, there is no mention of animal meat as being part of the
  promised plenty for subjects to the Prince of Peace's rule. Just that 
  the land will give of it's produce for all living creatures.

  Phil.

re Note 837.42 by RDGENG::YERKESS:

>   God "will certainly make for all peoples...a banquet of well-oiled dishes, 
>   a banquet of wine kept on the dregs, of well-oiled dishes filled with 
>   marrow." Isaiah 25:6 NWT.
...
>   Interestingly, there is no mention of animal meat as being part of the
>   promised plenty for subjects to the Prince of Peace's rule. 

        What's your definition of "marrow"?

        (I do realize that "vegetable marrow" is a British term for
        summer squashes, so it could mean "zucchini".)

        Bob

Bob,

I took it as the vegetable marrow, something my wife introduced me to
in her cooking.

Could it be bone marrow, possibly but I don't think so. It is worth 
researching though, perhaps a reference Bible may draw some light on 
"marrow" as used in this verse.

Looking up in the dictionary, it could also mean "the inmost, best, or
essential part; the core" so in this instance it could mean "the best part".
Certainly worth investigating further.

Phil.

  Bob,

  I looked up the meaning of "marrow" in Isaiah 25:6 and I must say that
  I'm indebted to you for pointing this out for I could have continued
  thinking that this was a vegetable marrow. Just goes to show how
  one can easily miss understand the original meaning and then draw
  the wrong conclusion.

  So I was wrong when I said that these Scriptures do not mention animal
  meat (see reply .42). What is true though is that the scriptures
  show that famine will be done away with. Whether or not, persons will 
  eat meat (or even vegetables) under the reign of the Prince of Peace, 
  one will have to wait and see.

  Marrow, was something that the Israelites ate (Micah 3:2,3). It
  is very nutrional and contains iron etc. Hence it is indicative 
  of what this symbolic banquet of Jehovah's will be like. Which 
  leads me onto another thing that the Prince of Peace would need 
  to correct, that is health. 

  Phil.

Another thing that the Prince of Peace will need to tackle during his
reign is that of sickness. No human can wipe out sickness but God can
and will do so through his Son. For "no inhabitant will say, 'I am 
sick';" (Isaiah 33:24 RSV) instead "Then the eyes of the blind shall 
be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped; then shall the lame man
leap like a hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing for joy." 
(Isaiah 35:5,6 RSV)

One can be sure that these things will come about for God has promised
it, for "'he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall
be no more, neither shall their be mourning nor crying nor pain any more,
for the former things have passed away.' And he who sat upon the throne 
said, 'Behold I make all things new.' Also he said, 'Write this, for 
these words are trustworthy and true.'"

Jesus Christ also gave a small foregleam of what he would accomplish
as Prince of Peace, when he performed many miracles during his 
ministry here on earth. For example he brought back sight to the blind,
loosened the tongues of the speechless, enabled lame ones to walk and 
even restored dead ones back to life (Matthew 15:30,31; Luke 7:21,22). 

Phil.

BTW Some of my replies in this note string have be written with the aid
of the Awake magazine dated 22-Oct-1993 titled "Is a new world near?"

If we are going to get the perfect world-wide garden of Eden in the future, and
that is a fact (heaven on earth?) then what is he waiting for?

If he has the power and the intention to end all suffering, conquer the forces
of evil, etc. then why not now?

It's kind of like saying, I'll just let them suffer a little while longer and
then I'll rescue them. Why wait? If the world WILL be like this, and whomever is
here at that time will benefit, then what possible rational reason could there
be for waiting?????

Steve

RE:        <<< Note 837.47 by TINCUP::BITTROLFF "Theologically Impaired" >>>
                        -< So what is he waiting for? >-


>If he has the power and the intention to end all suffering, conquer the forces
>of evil, etc. then why not now?

>It's kind of like saying, I'll just let them suffer a little while longer and
>then I'll rescue them. Why wait? If the world WILL be like this, and whomever is
>here at that time will benefit, then what possible rational reason could there
>be for waiting?????



II Peter 2:9  "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness,
but is patient toward you not wishing for any to perish but for ALL TO COME TO
REPENTANCE (emphasis mine)"


He's provided a way of salvation for all of us..He would like for all of us
to accept that means of salvation..unfortunately, not all will or do.  But, He
waits...




Jim

re .47

Steve,

Jim has mentioned repentance, to introduce such a paradise earth the occupants
would have to live in harmony with it. Persons who turn around from the 
desires of this world (such as greed & war) will show themselves as worthy of
living in such a paradise earth (1 John 2:17).

There are also a couple of underlying issues, that need to be sorted out.
One was brought up by Satan in the garden of Eden, that man can live 
independently of God. When the first human couple acted independently by
eating of the fruit, Jehovah God could have executed them there and then. 
But through his long-sighted wisdom he allowed imperfect humans to continue 
to exist independently of God. For the angels looking on may have asked 
"What if Satan was right?" and the executing of the wrong doers may have put 
doubt in their minds.  For Satan had told Eve that if she ate of the fruit 
that she would be like God and that she would not die (Genesis 3:1-5). In 
other words the first human couple could live indenpently of God and have no 
need to keep his commandments. But what would be the results of this 
independence?.

Over the last 6,000 years there have been different types of governments 
and we can see that man cannot rule or direct himself, as Jeremiah 10:23 RSV 
"I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not himself, that it is not in man who 
walks to direct his steps.". Jehovah God permits wickedness to highlight to one
and all that man cannot act independently of God.

But's thats not to say that he will not act soon. Jesus gave signs of what
the Bible terms "the last days" (Matthew 24 & 2 Timothy 3:1-5 for example).
Things would get worse before getting better here on earth. But soon the
God's kingdom as mentioned in Daniel 2:44 will bring an end to mankinds
rule and usher in peaceful & paradise conditions under the Prince of Peace.
Please feel free to ask me to expand on this.

God permitting wickedness can be likened to a painful life giving operation.
If someone is very sick, they may have to go through a painful operation.
The operation is vital to the persons future well being. After the
treatment and the patient is well, they forget the original pain and now 
enjoy their healthy condition. Because of the original couple Adam & Eve, 
mankind is learning a painful lesson that he cannot live independently of God.
This is painful because man rules man to his own injury. Those who recognise
that man cannot live independently of God will come through this operation
healthy not just physically but also in a spiritual sense.

Revelations 21:3,4 RSV reads "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He 
will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God will be with 
them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no 
more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for 
the former things have passed away." The issue of whether mankind can live
independently of God will have be resolved for all time. One will be able
to look back in history and say that independence from God just doesn't 
work. Those whom dependence is on God will reap everlasting happiness, for 
he is the source of life.

Phil.

No doubting that most persons would like to see freedom and justice for all.

Human rulers have earnestly tried but have failed to provide freedom and 
justice for all their subjects.

Isaiah 42:1 RSV reads "Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in
whom my soul delights;.......he will bring forth justice to the nations."
(see also Matthew 12:18)

The Prince of Peace will bring justice to the four corners of the earth. 
People will be able to live in peace and freedom without the threat of 
mugging, robbery, etc......

Something to look forward to especially for those living in what the Bible
terms "the last days" for persons will be "lovers of self..inhuman...fierce,
haters of good, treacherous, reckless" (2 Timothy 3:1-5) "and because 
wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold." Matthew 24:12 RSV
What a shame it is today, the fear persons have of being victims of crime.

Gratefully, God promises in the Bible that "the creation itself will be 
set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom
of the children of God." Romans 8:21 NWT 


Phil

Does this mean that humanity cannot live independently of God, or that even a
single person cannot.

I have been living independently for many years now, and am quite happy. I
believe that my actions towards most people are more compassionate than most
(not all) practicing Christians I know. I believe that if the world practiced my
version of morality we could all be very happy, while you believe that if it
practiced your version it would be happy. 

I suspect that if you take out the supernatural aspects, our moralities would be
very close. So, why can't we live independently?

Steve

    .51
    
    I suppose this wasn't directed at me.. but imho, I think we can.
    If your everyday life does not conflict with mine, regardless of belief
    system and we can agree on a basic set of morals, then so be it.
    
    The grievance comes in eternity, it doesn't have to be here.

    Steve,
    
    I spend most of my adult life as an atheist so I will try to answer
    from that perspective.  Today I believe that a God exists although I
    don't believe any of us can fully comprehend who or what God is.  I
    like the 12 Step program approach to God as Higher Power.  Higher Power
    is something outside of ourself which inspires us and is available to
    each of us to help create and restore meaning in our lifes.
    
    God or Higher Power exists whether or not we believe in it.  I believe
    that God loves each one of us regardless of what we profess to believe. 
    A belief in the Spirit of Morality, Love, and Goodness separate from our
    own self interests qualifies as a belief in Higher Power.
    
    Ultimately, I believe that each one of us is held accountable for how
    we live our lifes and not for what we profess to believe.  Jesus
    describes a very wonderful and simple religion.  
    
    To love our Higher power with all our heart, soul, and mind, and to love 
    our neighbors as ourselves.  I believe that is more important than the 
    belief in any particular doctrine.
    
    Patricia

    re .51 ( TINCUP::BITTROLFF )/Steve
    
>                               -< Why can't we? >-
>
>Does this mean that humanity cannot live independently of God, or that even a
>single person cannot.
...
>I suspect that if you take out the supernatural aspects, our moralities wouldbe
>very close. So, why can't we live independently?
    
    	The question isn't whether you are alive at the moment, but whether
    your life will continue forever if you choose to live indepentently
    from God.
    
    	If, as you say, you 'take out the supernatural aspect', you can
    expect your life to end at death and never be restored.  Death is the
    natural consequence of man's choice to live independently from God.
    
>I have been living independently for many years now, and am quite happy. I
>believe that my actions towards most people are more compassionate than most
>(not all) practicing Christians I know. I believe that if the world practicedmy
>version of morality we could all be very happy, while you believe that if it
>practiced your version it would be happy. 
    
    	A 'good life' alone isn't what keeps one alive forever, though it's
    certainly true that a 'bad life' -- an immoral one -- is likely to
    shorten it considerably.
    
    	On an individual basis, the happiness you are talking about is very
    short-lived.  Assuming you have loved-ones, your eventual death will
    cause them unhappiness.  Even if we reason that most people learn to
    cope with death, it doesn't change the fact that death causes a great
    deal of sorrow, even under the most ideal conditions (like no war,
    famine, disaster, & etc.).
    
    								-mark.

re .51

Steve,

;So, why can't we live independently?

The reason that we cannot act independently of God is because of how the
Creator designed the first human couple. As part of his design, man is reliant
on God to supply provisions for life. Just as man designs appliances that are
dependent on an energy source to function. God had designed the first human
couple to live forever, however they decided to act independently and therefore
pulled the plug as it were from that life source. 

Mankind is also designed in away that he needs guidance to direct him. As
Jeremiah 10:23 RSV reads "I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not himself,
that it is not in man who walks even to direct his steps,".

;I believe that if the world practiced my version of morality we could all be
;very happy, while you believe that if it practiced your version it would be
;happy.

;I suspect that if you take out the supernatural aspects, our moralities would 
;be very close. So, why can't we live independently?

Personally, I would not like to define any ones morality. We are all different
with a wide variety of upbringing and culture as well as having our own 
opinions. What I find moral you might find immoral.

One person who recognised this was Mohandas K. Ghandi who once told the British
viceroy of India: "When your country and mine shall get together on the
teachings laid down by Christ in the Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved 
the problems, not only of our countries but those of the whole world."

The teachings in the Bible are for the benefit of all concerned and is loving
guidance from our Creator. It is up to us if we act independent of it, but 
without out it mankind will not live in peace and unity.

Our Creator is the one who sets the standard, for he knows us better than
we do. 

Phil.