Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Patricia:
    
    Since you have chosen to make a string of this, I take it you are open
    to other perspectives.  
    
    There is a vast difference between truth and fact.  Truth is based on
    subjectivity and in christianity, stands on the merits of ones
    perceptions.  Example - Jesus was born on December 25th.  This is truth
    because tradition has taught this to be so, therefore, it is true.
    Paul expressed his personal biases and not Gods standards.  This is
    truth because you are conditioned through upbringing, environment, or
    what have you to establish the same.
    
    Fact is based on objective evidence, either concrete or historical.  I
    am a white male, this is fact.  It is genetically and visually proven.
    
    Now this brings up the million dollar question.  Do liberal christians
    base their ideas on truth...or fact.  Example: Is liberal christianity
    consistent in their view of God when looking at Old Testament writings
    verses New Testament writing?  
    
    -Jack

  >All Christians liberal and conservative believe in the same one God. 
 
Demonstrably wrong.  

What does it mean to "believe" in God?  Does it matter what you
believe?  Or is any belief acceptable?  Does it matter if you
believe that Jesus is God?  Does it matter if you believe that
Baal is God?  At what point does *what* you believe God is start 
to matter?

If it doesn't matter at all, then Satan worshippers can "believe"
in God.

If it matters a lot, then you and I cannot possibly both be
believing in God - because our beliefs are diametrically opposed
in a number of important areas.

The Bible indicates that who God is is very important.  God has
spent a lot of time revealing Himself to us through His prophets.
We have in fact been warned that the path to God is narrow and
that *most* people are on the wide track to someplace else other
than God.

What is it that God means when He says not to have any other
gods before Him?  It means that we are to *KNOW* Him - and cast
all imposters out.  One or both of our gods is an imposter.

Collis

    
    Re.1
    
    Jack,
    
    >Jesus was born on December 25th.
    
    He was?  (Perhaps this is another topic in itself...mods feel free to
    move.)
    
    Cindy

    .3  See topic 797.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    I believe that God is the Universal God of all humankind.
    I believe that God is totally loving.
    I believe that God wants each of us to be happy.
    I reject any notion of God being a God of only a select group of
    people.
    
    Collis, I believe you and I worship the same God.  I just believe that
    you have certain ideas about God that are false.  I too may have
    certain ideas about God that are false.  The big difference is that I
    am willing to acknowledge that I do not know everything about God. 
    
    I believe that God does not want any of us to have a real concrete
    image of him/her.  If he/she did he/she would certainly make that
    information readily available to us.  I believe God wants us to have
    faith though.  Faith that translates into actions.

The problem is not that God has not made information
concerning Himself available.

The problem is that we reject it, twist it, hide from
it and obscure it.  That is the legacy of sin that we
have and pass on to our children.

You pass off our differences as if they were some minor
"misconceptions" about God - when in fact they deal with
the *very essence* of who God is, what He has done and
what it means for you and me.  Take that away, and there
is nothing left.

"Who is your god?" is a most relevant question not only
for you and me, but for us all.  Your hope that god will
accept (not love, since that is a given - but accept) us
all regardless of what we were willing to believe and
live by is, as Paul would say, the wisdom of men which is 
foolishness according to God.

That's what I hear the prophets of God proclaim.

Collis

P.S.  "The difference is that I am willing to acknowledge 
       that I do not know everything about God." ???

If you think that this is the difference between us, I
haven't communicated *at all*.
       

    You have communicated quite well Collis.  I think a lot of what Paul
    says about the WISDOM of humans and the WISDOM of God can apply to
    anyone who thinks that they are so wise that they know all the answers.
    
    I guess I am a fool.  I have a lot more questions than I have answers. 
    I do believe however that perhaps it was part of the wisdom of God to
    make the Bible an instrument of human freedom,   obscure and not clear 
    and human.  There are few indisputable answers recorded in the Bible.  
    
    Patricia  

Note 796.7

>    I guess I am a fool.  I have a lot more questions than I have answers. 

I guess I'm a fool, too.  Paul has some interesting remarks about being a
fool.

>    I do believe however that perhaps it was part of the wisdom of God to
>    make the Bible an instrument of human freedom,   obscure and not clear 
>    and human.  There are few indisputable answers recorded in the Bible.  

And aren't we glad there are so many folk so eager to give us the single
right answers--and at no charge, too!

Peace,
Richard

    .8
    
    Mr. Richard,
    
    In order to invoke a tad of levity into an emotionally packed day...
    er, uh is this a bad hair week? :-) :-)
    
    Well, fwiw, it's a bad hair day for me. :-(
    
    Nancy

    In this topic I am reminded of the "10 blind men vs the elephant"
    story (10 blind men are asked to describe an elephant.  One describes
    the trunk, another the side, another the feet, etc.  All the same
    creature, just different parts).

    God is everywhere.  He is the Love that permeates all.  Collis'
    experience is different from Patricia's experience is different
    from mine.  So, where's the problem?  In the large scheme of 
    things these "differences" are truely petty.

    Belief that God is a certain way, imho, is far less important than
    belief in His teaching, revealed by Jesus Christ:  Love God, Love
    your neighbor.  It is this leap of faith, that Love is worthwhile
    and the true path to heaven, either now or "later" that God calls
    us to make.  Try it!  It's hard, difficult, confusing and conter-
    intuitive.  That's why we need faith.

    What does He look like?  WHO CARES!?!?!?

    Tom

re Note 796.10 by THOLIN::TBAKER:

>     In the large scheme of 
>     things these "differences" are truely petty.
  
        Not everyone agrees that the differences are petty.

        While we generally agree that there is one true God and that
        this God is everywhere, many also believe that there are
        other spirits that try to deceive people about God.  If one
        believes this, then one won't agree that everybody's
        understanding of God MUST be a true understanding of the one
        true God.

        Bob

   >In this topic I am reminded of the "10 blind men vs the elephant"
   >story (10 blind men are asked to describe an elephant.  One describes
   >the trunk, another the side, another the feet, etc.  All the same
   >creature, just different parts).

Indeed, this is an oft-used analogy which I'm perfectly willing
to consider.  Now, how do you reconcile the concept of God being
a fully just God (permeating his *entire* being, i.e. being present
in all parts of God) and the notion that God is NOT a fully just 
God (God allows some sin to go unpunished) fit into this analogy?
It can't.  The elephant cannot be both fully just and not fully
just.  The same is true of many other "minor" differences in our
perception of God.  God cannot be both willing to kill the
first-born in Egypt and NOT willing to kill the first-born
in Egypt.  So on and so on.  

If what you want is universal love, pick a religion and a god
that gives you that without all this sanctifying, acceptance
by faith business.  Most any religion will do.  Christianity
will not - because it differs from other religions *precisely*
in the areas that you say "it doesn't matter" when, in fact,
it is proclaimed by the prophets and God Himself as THE CRITICAL
DIFFERENCE.

All religions teach love.  Christianity teaches acceptance of
God's payment for our sins by faith in the sacrificial, atoning
death of God's one and only Son, Jesus Christ, who is Himself
God.  Any belief or following the teaching of Jesus which does
not deal with the problem of sin and reach the only acceptable
solution which God has provided is *worthless* as far as eternity
is concerned.  You can love all you want and do great things -
but if your sin keeps you from God, you will suffer the
punishment you deserve (death).  But, of course, you've heard
this before and chosen to believe that it is not true.  What I
don't understand is why it is so important to redefine
*Christianity* to support what you want to believe.  There are
lots of religions which will teach you that love is not only
the greatest - it is the only thing.  What pervert the teaching
of all the prophets of God?

Ya, I know, they were only men and didn't *really* know what they
were saying.  Sigh.

Collis

    Christianity teaches about God's love.
    
    Christianity teaches that God's love is directly available to
    humankind.
    
    Christianity in the personage of Jesus provides us the most perfect
    example of what it means to live moment by moment in the spirit of
    God's love.
    
    Christianity defines Goodness and gives us wonderful examples of what
    is good.
    
    Goodness is loving others and taking care of others.
    Goodness is being faithful.
    Goodness is in simplicity.
    etc, etc, etc.
    
    Christianity is much more who we are and how we decide to be and how we
    decide to align our lifes in imitation of Christ as the example of good
    living.  
    
    Christianity is not about blind faith to a bunch of confusing
    doctrines.
    
    It is sad that fundamentalists have perverted the meaning of
    Christianity so.  It is sad that fundamentalists feel it is so much
    more important to believe in the divinity of Christ over the humanity
    of christ, rather than use either belief as the method of centering our
    own lifes on that which is good.  There is a major delemma of being
    liberal.  As a liberal I hear the fundamentalist charge that I have
    perverted the meaning of Christianity.  I know that the real meaning of
    Christianity is in Love and not in doctrine.  As a liberal though I am
    hesitant to confront the fundementalist perversion of Christianity.  A
    perversion of Christianity that would make it impossible for me to
    believe as I belief and worship as I worship.
    
    Indeed, I too sigh.  
    
    Patricia
    

re Note 796.12 by TLE::COLLIS::JACKSON:

> Now, how do you reconcile the concept of God being
> a fully just God (permeating his *entire* being, i.e. being present
> in all parts of God) and the notion that God is NOT a fully just 
> God (God allows some sin to go unpunished) fit into this analogy?
> It can't.  

        Why can't it?

        How do you know that "fully just" implies "punishes all sin"?

        You have set up a standard based upon human logic and "common
        sense" and used it to discern the divine.

        Especially in the case of a God who is creator and a sinner
        who is the created, I can easily imagine that justice could
        demand just the opposite of what you expect.

        The problem here, Collis, is that we feeble human minds just
        can't comprehend the logic that MIGHT apply in a
        creator-created situation.

        It is VERY possible that your text I quoted is childish
        nonsense (and so may mine be).  More importantly, we can't
        decide objectively.

        Bob

RE:      <<< Note 796.12 by TLE::COLLIS::JACKSON "DCU fees?  NO!!!" >>>

>Indeed, this is an oft-used analogy which I'm perfectly willing
>to consider.  Now, how do you reconcile the concept of God being
>a fully just God (permeating his *entire* being, i.e. being present
>in all parts of God) and the notion that God is NOT a fully just 
>God (God allows some sin to go unpunished) fit into this analogy?

    Perhaps we don't have all the information we need to make a judgement.
    Perhaps we have an incomplete understanding of what "just" is.

>God cannot be both willing to kill the
>first-born in Egypt and NOT willing to kill the first-born
>in Egypt.  So on and so on.  

    Yes He can.  He's God.

>If what you want is universal love, pick a religion and a god
>that gives you that without all this sanctifying, acceptance
>by faith business.  

    To follow the order to Love thine enemy requires faith to 
    follow until you can see the wisdom of it.  This isn't easy
    stuff.  

>Any belief or following the teaching of Jesus which does
>not deal with the problem of sin and reach the only acceptable
>solution which God has provided is *worthless* as far as eternity
>is concerned.  

    Hmmm... Who made you judge?

>You can love all you want and do great things -
>but if your sin keeps you from God, you will suffer the
>punishment you deserve (death).  

    And have not Love....  Oh... Nevermind.

    What is my sin?  Loving?  My sin is *not* Loving.  Until we
    Love deeply and thoroughly we are asleep, dead, and in hell.
    The Bible is a path out of this hell, not trap to get stuck in.

>What I don't understand is why it is so important to redefine
>*Christianity* to support what you want to believe.

    It's not a case of wanting to believe something.

    Parts of Christianity need to be redefined from time to time.
    The authorities of the Spanish Inquisition needed to have their
    attitude adjusted and their Christianity redefined.

    I guess I'm a fundamentalist.  I believe in the fundamental
    message of Jesus: Love God and Love your neighbor.

    Are you getting tired of the "L" word?  If you are then stop
    calling yourself a Christian.

>There are lots of religions which will teach you that love is not only
>the greatest - it is the only thing.  What pervert the teaching
>of all the prophets of God?       (Why? ^)

    Well, Jesus said that Love was the most important thing and I
    believe him.  And, ya know, I also believe He spoke from experience.
    I find nothing perverse about that.

>Ya, I know, they were only men and didn't *really* know what they
>were saying.  Sigh.

    Actually, I believe Jesus knew what He was talking about.  Do you?

    Tom

    Pat and Others:
    
    You've touched on some very important points.  Here's the usual
    question that I seem to not get a straight answer on...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    What about atonement?  What about redemption? What about
    Sanctification?
    You haven't addressed these issues at all.  You only proved Collis'
    point that all religions are a good conduit to promote love thy
    neighbor.  You seem to omit the fact that we were bought with a heavy
    price.  Christianity is only promoted by our love.  We are to let our
    light so shine.  Christianity is not established by our love.  It was
    established on Calvary some 2000 years ago.  
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    Was Christianity established on Cavalry or was it established in
    Bethlehem.  What is the more important, the way Christ lived or the way
    he died, or the way he was ressurected?  Was the ressurection a
    physical ressurection or a spiritual ressurection.   In Mark, Jesus is
     preaching the Gospel?  What is the Gospel he is preaching.  Certainly not
    the same Gospel that Paul preaches in the Corinthian letters.  Paul
    preaches the Gospel of the risen Christ. The human Christ is not important 
    to Paul.  Justification and atonement and sanctification are important
    to Paul but what do they mean to Mark.  
    
    The Christian Church has never been unified.  There were major
    divisions in Corinth and in Galatia.  in 50 CE there were those who
    thought Paul was great and those who thought he was perverting
    Christianity.  I don't have to believe what you believe or what Collis
    believes or what anyone else believes to call myself a Christian.
    
    Jesus' death means to me that this courageous inspired man was willing to
    suffer and die for his ministry and for all the people his ministry was
    for, including you and I.  The idea that God needed a divine sacrifice
    to atone for the sins of the world is a bit far fetched for me.  The
    idea that what Jesus stood for was so important to him that he was
    willing to die for it makes much more sense to me.
    
    Patricia 

>    What about atonement?  What about redemption? What about
>    Sanctification?
       .
       .
>     You seem to omit the fact that we were bought with a heavy price.

    Good stuff.  Thank you, Jesus, for buying me time to get my act
    together.  I can be assured that if I do my best to live His
    word that I won't be blind sided by what someone folks did a 
    long long time ago.

    The best thing I can do with that time, so dearly won, is to put
    it to good use by learning to live Love.

>    You only proved Collis' point that all religions are a good 
>    conduit to promote love thy neighbor.

    I did?

>    Christianity is only promoted by our love.  We are to let our
>    light so shine.  

    Sounds good to me.

>    Christianity is not established by our love.  It was
>    established on Calvary some 2000 years ago.  

    Where/how it was established is of little consequence.  That it
    was established and what our "charter" is of consequence.

    Living and Loving is *NOW*, not in the past.  Let the dead bury 
    the dead.  There is a time to stop reading the word and start
    living it.

    Love!
    Tom

It was said again just a few notes ago.  Jesus is
"an example".  As if that is what He primarily was.

God, why is your message that you sent us so clearly
about how to be right with you perverted, ignored,
tossed out and trampled upon?  Why do we insist that
we know better than your prophets of long ago of what
YOU desire?  

Collis

P.S.  By the way, it was *Paul* who said that the greatest
 of faith, hope and love was love, not Jesus.  And plenty
 of non-Christians believe that Love is the most important
 thing.  That doesn't make them followers of Jesus or
 followers of God.  That makes them believers in the
 importance of love.

 To follow God, believe Him, trust in Him, accept Him,
 love Him and act for Him.

         
    There is a verse in I John somewhere that goes:
    
    "He that loveth not, knoweth not God, for God is Love."
    
    Cindy

 "The one who does not love, does not know God for God is love"


 1John 4:8 (NASB)



 Verse 1-6 are also rather interesting, but I suppose there are many who
 would claim verse 8 and deny the rest.





 Jim

 While in 1st John, chapter 3 verse 24 is also interesting.."and the one
 who keeps His commandments abide in Him and he in him.  And we know by
 this that He abides in us, by the Spirit He has given us"..



 1st John is quite a book.



 Jim

>It was said again just a few notes ago.  Jesus is
>"an example".  As if that is what He primarily was.

    I don't think it was me who said that but....  He is
    many things for many people and not always the same
    for each.  I look to Him as a teacher, an example...
    T'ain't nothin' wrong with that.

>God, why is your message that you sent us so clearly
>about how to be right with you perverted, ignored,
>tossed out and trampled upon?  Why do we insist that
>we know better than your prophets of long ago of what
>YOU desire?  

    Amen!  Would that those who call themselves His children
    realized that His main message is Love.

> To follow God, believe Him, trust in Him, accept Him,
> love Him and act for Him.

    Good idea.  But, please... Get His message straight, first....
    Thank you.

    Love!
    Tom

>    Amen!  Would that those who call themselves His children
>    realized that His main message is Love.


 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God
  and observe His commandments..for this is the love of God, that we
  keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome" 
  
  1John 5:3,4




 Jim

Note 796.19

>P.S.  By the way, it was *Paul* who said that the greatest
>of faith, hope and love was love, not Jesus.

Ahh!  Now, here's a lever I recognize!  I've used it a time or two
myself! (with similar success, I might add)  ;-}

Shalom,
Richard

>                             -< Paul .NE. Jesus >-

    True enough, but I don't really mind if Paul uses one
    of Jesus' themes now and then.  

    Tom

    .26  Neither do I, Tom.  And never let anyone tell you that love's
    not central to the gospel message.
    
    :-)
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    So we have a genuine difference of opinion here about what the main
    message of Christianity.
    
    The main message of Christianity is that we should love God and our
    neighbors.  That we should order our lifes based on how Jesus teaches
    us to love.
    
    The main message of Christianity is that Jesus died on the Cross as an
    atoning sacrifice for the sins of humankind.
    
    
    Am I restating what I read accurately.
    
    Are there alternative main messages of Christianity?

    I would say that both are important. Also that one who did not
    believe in *both* of them would seem like half a Christian at best.
    
    			Alfred

>    The main message of Christianity is that we should love God and our
>    neighbors.

That's actually nothing new.  All of the following are from Deuteronomy
and Leviticus:

	Hear, O Israel:  The Lord is our God, the Lord alone.
	You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart,
	and with all your soul, and with all your might.

	For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords,
	the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial
	and takes no bribe, who executes justice for the orphan
	and the widow, and who loves the strangers, providing
	them food and clothing.

	You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers
	in the land of Egypt.

	You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

					-- our Judeo-Christian heritage

    Terrific John,
    
    So is this one point we agree on?
    
    Patricia

We cannot agree if you have a Universalist perception of God.

re Note 796.32 by COVERT::COVERT:

> We cannot agree if you have a Universalist perception of God.
  
        Do you realize what a strong statement you are making, John? 
        You are saying that as long as she sees what she sees,
        agreement with you is in principle impossible.

        You are saying that unless she were to deny what she sees, or
        close her eyes to what she sees, then attempt at agreement is
        futile.

        Bob

    Hello Patricia:
    
    Hope your weekend was a good one.  To answer one of your questions a
    few notes back, The establishment of Christianity as the followers of
    Christ started 2000 years or so ago.  Some say it started in Bethleham,
    some say in the waters of the Jordan, and some yet say on Calvary.  I
    say his ministry started at His baptism but it was not until Jesus'
    death and resurrection that Christianity was established because the
    new covenant had not yet been fulfilled.  
    
    I think this might clear up the love/sacrifice fork in the road we are
    hitting.  There are many passages in 1st John speaking of the love we
    must have for one another.  This goes without saying and if I said any-
    thing else, may God be true and may I be a liar.  Think of all the
    Christians of the days of Nero who went to their deaths for the
    testimony of the cross, is this agape love?  I think so.  The gospels
    also tell us that no greater love is there than for he who gives his
    life for his friend,  1st Corinthians does say if we have not love, we
    are nothing.  I think this establishes the importance of love in the
    gospels and in our dialogue here.
    
    Now having said this, I believe it is important to understand the
    parameters of our relationship to God.  God is love and is perfect. 
    God is all knowing and all present.  He is the essence of perfection.
    (Now here's the tough pill to swallow).  As humans, we are well
    meaninged but in our good intentions, we have a condition.  A leper can
    be the best person in the world but he/she is still a leper, correct?
    We were born into sin.  We were born into iniquity.  We were born into
    unrighteousness.  I don't like it anymore than anybody else, but it is
    fact.  We are told in agape love that the soul that sins shall surely
    die.  We are told in love that the wages of sin is death.  In Johns
    great love epistle, he tell us that "He who has the son has life, and
    He who does not have the son does not have life!"  1st Jn 5:11-12.  
    What a tremendous demonstration of love than when Jesus came down from
    His glory, took on the role of a poor carpenter, scourged by his own
    people, and died an agonizing death...for us!  Not because he was a
    martyr, but because he died for a specific purpose.  A Holy, perfect
    God cannot allow sin in his presence...at all.  Our sin had to be paid
    for.  This is the great LOVE that was spoken of by the ancient Hebrew
    prophets.  Think back to the Old days of Moses when they had to
    sacrifice Rams, Bulls, and goats on the alter.  Jesus is referred to
    as, "The Lamb of God" who takes away the sin of the world.  He didn't
    only die for the Jews, but also for everybody in the world.  Now it is
    up to us to accept it or reject it.
    
    The real question is, If you accept his death, do you love him?  If you
    reject his death, do you hate him.  Very important questions.  I appeal
    to you as somebody who searches diligently, Did Christ die in vain, or
    did he die for your sins?  I know I would be in hell myself had it not
    been for the cross of Calvary!!
    
    God Bless!!
    
    -Jack

    the fallacy of that argument is
    
    That if good is all powerful.
    
    And God cannot tolerate sin
    
    God is powerful enough to divert humankinds hearts from sin without the
    need for a human/divine sacrifice.
    
    I accept Jesus death.  I accept it as a human choice in support of what
    he deeply believed.  In ways it is similiar to Martin Luther King
    Junior's death.  I believe the atonement stuff is bad theology.
    
    I do not believe I or anyone else has to accept that peculiar doctrine
    to be considered a Christian.

    Fair enough Patricia and I respect your position on this.  I hope at
    least I was able to tie in the importance of Love with what Jesus did
    on the cross, regardless of whether one believes atonement is
    essential.  
    
    I also say this with deep respect for you.  This issue will be present
    throughout our search for truth.  I think we will find the need for
    atonement and redemption from sin an inescapable issue throughout our
    lives.  What Jesus did on the cross is what separates Him from every
    religious leader throughout our history, (over and above his actual
    being and true essence).
    
    Incidentally, our diversion from sins does come from God diverting us
    through the Holy Spirit.  Without this, we would be in utter chaos. 
    The trick is to yield to the Spirit.
    
    -Jack

    Jack,
    
    We agree more than we disagree.
    
    Jesus act on the cross was an act of love.
    
    Accepting and yielding to the Holy Spirit brings fulfillment and
    meaning to our lifes.  Accepting and yielding to a higher power is the
    only way to bring meaning to life. 
    
    Atonement and redemption from sin are inescapable issues and gifts from
    the Divine.
    
    I believe that Jesus died on the cross because of choices that
    humans made.  God has chosen to give us humans freedom of action.  He
    did not interfere with the predictable choices that were made. We
    humans recreate those choices whenever we individually or collectively
    to harm to others.

Re: Note 796.37                  
AKOCOA::FLANAGAN "honor the web"                     18 lines  20-DEC-1993 14:51
        
>>    Jesus act on the cross was an act of love.
  
      Total Agreement Here!
  
>>    Accepting and yielding to the Holy Spirit brings fulfillment and
>>    meaning to our lifes.  Accepting and yielding to a higher power is the
>>    only way to bring meaning to life. 
  
       Total Agreement Here!!
  
>>    Atonement and redemption from sin are inescapable issues and gifts from
>>    the Divine.
  
	Total Agreement Here.  Do you think it is imperative that we as an act
	of the will receive this?!
  
>>    I believe that Jesus died on the cross because of choices that
>>    humans made.  God has chosen to give us humans freedom of action.  He
>>    did not interfere with the predictable choices that were made. We
>>    humans recreate those choices whenever we individually or collectively
>>    to harm to others.

      Yes, this is true.  Jesus died because we choose things in life as I 
	assume you are stating above.  I guess I'm still a little confused 
	on your stand here based on what you stated below on another reply.
	See below.

>>    I accept Jesus death.  I accept it as a human choice in support of what
>>    he deeply believed.  In ways it is similiar to Martin Luther King
>>    Junior's death.  I believe the atonement stuff is bad theology.
>>    I do not believe I or anyone else has to accept that peculiar doctrine
>>    to be considered a Christian.
  
    Am I assuming correctly that you believe Jesus death was only meaningful
    because Jesus thought it was the right thing to do and not because his 
    death has the power to atone for sin?  In other words, Jesus is to be 
    held in high esteem because he did what he thought was the right thing to 
    do, or He died willingly because he came to save and to seek that which 
    was lost, namely, us!!!

    Thanks and God Bless,

    -Jack




  

    Jack,
    
    I believe the most important thing about Jesus was how he choose to
    live including his decision to go into Jerusalem knowing that he would
    be crucified.  Jesus was a minister.  His ministry was the most
    important thing in his life. Jesus made the supreme sacrifice for his
    ministry.  His ministry was for the men and women of the time period
    and the men and women today.  Therefore Jesus made the supreme
    sacrifice for you and I.   His ministry is the Good News of God. 
    Jesus saves by his example.  An example of what a life lived completely
    under the Holy Spirit and will of the Divine looks like.  I do not
    believe that we are freed from our sins by an atoning act of sacrifice. 
    I believe we are freed from our sins by following Jesus' example and
    inviting the Holy Spirit into our lifes.
    
    Patricia

    
    Jack,
    
    Interesting as it may seem, and as unChristian (;^) as I appear to be,
    I believe slightly differently from Patricia in that I do, in fact, 
    believe that Christ died for sins.  The only difference is, though, 
    that I believe He died for the sins of the people *living at that time*, 
    thus wiping out the (karmic) debt that needed to be paid to God to have 
    them reconciled.  [So to speak.]  His death was as a result of the 
    actions of people, AND his choice to work the sins out using his own body.
    
    I don't believe, though, that He does this for people today, since it
    is my understanding that a spiritual master/avatar needs to be in the 
    body to work out karmic debt for others.  He is there to help people
    who call upon Him though.
    
    Call it a difference.
    
    What touches me is Christ's loving presence, the way He conducted
    His life for the short time he was here, and what He left to us in the
    way of teachings (edited as they have been through the centuries.) 
    
    There's a Unitarian Universalist saying about the Bible that, "There
    are Bible-thumpers and Bible-bashers - we are neither, and the thumping 
    and the bashing stops and we listen closely, we can hear God."
    
    Cindy
                                                           

    
    Re.39 - What Patricia said.
    
    Cindy

re .40

Of course, the Christian doctrine is that Christ IS still in the body and
DOES indeed still offer his sacrifice for our sins even today.

If he were not arisen, then our faith would be in vain.  But he is arisen!
Alleluia.

And in heaven, he continually offers himself as a sacrifice for our sins,
in the heavenly banquet, where all food is the Body of Christ and all
drink is His Precious Blood.

/john

    
    Re.42
    
    Avatars never truly 'die' in the traditional sense.  So yes, in 
    that sense, Christ is arisen, and Death has no power over Him. 
    
    For a very interesting detailed account of this concept, read
    "Autobiography Of A Yogi", by Paramahansa Yogananda.  The word
    that the Hindus use for this state is called 'mahasamadhi'.
    
    Cindy

    Cindy:
    
    Yes I am familiar with the writings.  I became knowledgable of its
    existence from the Moody Blues and Yes a few years back. 
    
    Cindy, Israel suffered some of the most horrific judgements of the Old
    Testament times.  They suffered because they made the choice to mix a
    little bit of Paganism or Eastern Religion in with their own.  As a
    result of this they stumbled into pure idol worship.  It happened over
    a period of time but eventually, it corrupted the nation.  
    If history can repeat itself, I would then challenge you to ask
    yourself if the doctrine to which you follow may or may not be healthy
    for your walk.  I ask this certainly not as a judgement of you but as
    one who asks you to seek truth.  
    
    As far as what Christ's purpose was, I can only tell you that the
    Church was established in the book of Acts and we are called to Preach
    the Gospel to all nations, making disciples of them.  I truly believe
    that the work of Christ is finished and is applicable to all
    generations.  
    
    God Bless,
    
    -Jack

    RE: Note 796.34 by AIMHI::JMARTIN

    Jack,

    Well stated, and I whole-heartedly concur.  How some can remove the
    all-sufficient substitutionary death of Christ from the Gospel message,
    plainly stated in God's word, is a mystery to me.  The Gospel has no
    eternal merit when its most important truths are trivialized and/or
    denied.

    Regards,

    John

    To me, it cheapens the Gospel to reduce its message to mere doctrine.
    
    Your mileage may vary,
    Richard
    

>the work of Christ is finished

You make it sound like He isn't still there today working to save us.

His work is perfected, but not finished.

It has all been decided, but God is working his purpose out, as year
succeeds to year.

In the personal relationship with Jesus, in which we unite ourselves with
his one, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, Christ still works, through the
Holy Spirit, to make us see Him more clearly, love Him more dearly.

/john

    
>    I don't believe, though, that He does this for people today, since it
>    is my understanding that a spiritual master/avatar needs to be in the 
>    body to work out karmic debt for others.  

    Where in the Bible is this? It contradicts my understanding of the
    Bible. Thanks.

    		Alfred

To me, it cheapens God's sacrifice on the cross as payment for
our sins to refer to it as "mere doctrine".

It cheapens it unbelievably.

Collis

    An interesting and emotional mixture, Collis.  Thought you were into
    the cerebral and logical.
    
    God's actions and the systematic intellectualization thereof by humans
    are two different things, confuse them all you will.
    
    Richard
    

 Acts 2:42 "And they continued steadfastly in the Apostles doctrine and 
 fellowship and in the breaking of bread and in prayers"


 The Apostle's doctrine played a significant part in the early history
 of the church as is clear in the book of Acts where the gospel of salvation
 was preached many times.




 Jim

    .51  No argument here.
    
    Richard
    

The concept of the avatar is an ancient one, older than Christianity, older
than the canon.  The notion of a God-ordained human messenger/servant appearing
on the earth at different times and different places may be seen as an
extra-biblical one.

Jesus, according to some adherents of the faith, was the avatar for the age
of Pisces.  There are an interesting number of connections that can be made
and seem to cleverly fit when one examines them.  But then, to me all the
clues pointing to the death of Paul McCartney seem to cleverly fit, too! :-)

Richard

    John:
    
    I agree with you.  When I said Jesus work is finished, I meant it in
    the context of what he did on the cross.  I was actually quoting His
    last words before he died, "It is finished".
    
    I believe it is the Holy Spirit that continues the work of building the
    church.  I believe this is the role of the Holy Spirit.  
    
    Richard, I don't believe the issue of the cross can be termed a mere
    doctrine.  It is the focal point of not only the gospels and epistles,
    it also is the focus of the prophets and is even spoken of as a part of
    the curse to the serpeant.  Point being that reference is made of the
    suffering of Christ as far back as Genesis!  
    
    The bottom line to me is the great importance of learning from history. 
    The OT is an excellent reference of the practices of Israel and the
    trouble they got themselves into.  I care for my fellow noters too much
    to remain silent on issues and feel God is compelling me to speak on
    these matters, just as you may also be compelled.
    
    -Jack

Note 796.54

>    Richard, I don't believe the issue of the cross can be termed a mere
>    doctrine.

It depends.  I'm hearing a lot of quick-and-dirty repetition of dogma,
a lot of key-phrases designed to close the door to any other understandings
of the event.  Anyone may parrot these things.  It's not convincing.

Peace,
Richard

    
    Alfred,
    
    Somewhere in the Bible, there is a statement (verse) that mentions that
    if all the teachings and actions of Jesus while He was here, were put 
    down in words, then there wouldn't be enough books to hold them.
    
    I take from that, that not *everything* about His life is in the Bible.
    
    Cindy

    
    Jack,
    
    It's nice of you to be concerned about me.  But your comments about
    Paganism and Eastern Religion do not seem to come from an informed
    source.  If that's what you think they are about, then I am equally as
    concerned - if not more - about your views too.
    
    I also don't believe that Christ's work is finished here.
    
    God bless,
    
    Cindy
                              

 Re .56

 John 21:24,25

 "This is the disciple which testifieth to these things and wrote these
 things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25)  And, there are also many
 other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every
 one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that
 should be written. Amen"


 If you believe verse 25, as you indicate  in .56, I'm sure you then believe
 .24, that that to which John testified in the rest of the book is true,
 correct?
 


 Jim

    
    Re.58
    
    Jim,
    
    Since you say you're sure, then why did you continue on to ask 
    the question?
    
    [The answer is no, that while it may have been correct when John
    wrote that, I have reason to believe that the Bible has been severely
    edited and modified over the centuries so that it is no longer true.]
    
    Thanks for the reference, by the way.
    
    Cindy
                                                                         

Re: Note 796.57                 
TNPUBS::PAINTER "Planet Crayon"                      14 lines  21-DEC-1993 12:34
    
>>        It's nice of you to be concerned about me.  But your comments about
>>    Paganism and Eastern Religion do not seem to come from an informed
>>    source.  

     Cindy, I beg to differ with you on this point.  On what grounds do you 
make this accusation?  My only comments to you regarding this issue centered 
on the history of Israel throughout the times of the Judges and the kings 
of the northern and southern kingdoms just prior to the Babylonian exile.  Are
you familiar with these historical events?  If not, then your accusation is,
how shall we say, presumptuous?

    My premise stands on a solid foundation.  It is dangerous to mix paganism 
with Christian doctrines of any kind as they are diametrically opposed.  With
all due respect and I say this with as much sensitivity as I can muster, your
concept of Jesus' mission has absolutely no basis of fact.  It is not founded
by historical or prophetic evidence.  I would be very interested in your 
evidence of this nature to substantiate your claim.  

Books that may help you in these areas are "Kingdom of the Cults", by Walter
Martin, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell, "The Two Babylons",
by Hislop, and another book called "Babylon, Mystery Religion", the authors 
name alludes me.  As I mentioned before, the book, "Autobiography of a Yogi",
was brought to my attention from some early rock bands of the 70's that held 
up its inspiration.

>>If that's what you think they are about, then I am equally as
>>    concerned - if not more - about your views too.

Oh yeah, why's that?  Isn't Heaven and Hell a state of mind?  If this be the
case, then eternal judgement is of no concern since it does not exist.  
Therefore I ask again, why would you be concerned for me?
  
>>  I also don't believe that Christ's work is finished here.
    
Again I am baffled by this.  You stated in an earlier note that Jesus paid for
the sins of the people only during his day.  If this be the case, perhaps 
you are talking about the ministry of the Holy Spirit?  Jesus finished
    his work on the cross.

Again Cindy, one not need be a genius to look at the past.  Israel suffered
condemnation because of Pagan worship.  Reincarnation for example has 
Babylonian origins and contradicts not only the Bible, but also the very words
of Jesus whom you seem to hold in high esteem.  (I picked reincarnation
because it is so evident in the teachings of eastern religions.)  

Best,

-Jack
                          

    Hi...

    Just a couple thoughts, and maybe an assignment...  8)

    I just re-read Hebrews 9 & 10 this morning, and heartily endorse it to
    anyone (along with the rest of Scripture, of course!).  To me, it deals
    with the primary reason Christ came: Christ's perfect sacrifice, once
    for all.

    I respect, to the best of my imperfect ability, those individuals who
    enter their thoughts and views here.  I don't feel an obligation to
    esteem some of the thoughts and views themselves, though, as they seem
    more concerned with dispensing warm-fuzzies than (Biblical) truth.

    The above-mentioned chapters are so good regarding our current topic,
    it's hard for me not to want to reproduce them in their entirety here. 
    Time and noting etiquette prevent me from doing so, but give them a
    honest look and see what they say regarding our discussion.

    Regards,

    John
    

    RE: .30 (!)  (I got here late  :-)
    
    RE: Loving God and neighbor nothing new...
    
    And, ya know, even with Jesus submiting himself to torture and
    humiliation and all these years, we *still* haven't gotten it right!
    
    Tom