Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    
    Given the 'coveting thy neighbor's wife' thing, it seems obvious 
    that God was only speaking to men at this time.
    
    .....because God already knew that *women* were far more superior
    and clearly didn't need reminding of these things.
    
    Cindy

Re:  .0

What is clear is that you have taken Jewish interpretation
of the 10 commandments and deemed that *this* is what the
10 commandments are all about.  What about *God's* reason
for the 10 commandments and God's interpretation?  Is it
o.k. for God to state expectations in a form that is
readily acceptable to the current culture - withtout forever
antogonizing more "enlightened" cultures which will then
claim that God was simply behind the times and didn't really
know what He was doing.

Evidently not for some.

Some of us, wishing to appear even more enlightened than those
already enlightened :-), attempt to not judge God by the
standards of today's culture (which are, of course, man-made)
and instead prefer to accept God as He is and understand who
He is rather than rejecting His revelation.

How's that for enlightenment?

Again, I'm not caught up with Monday, yet, and I may have to skip a
whole bunch (and intend to get to Bob's notes tomorrow.  Sorry.

Note 783.41   CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    The overall tone of number 10 is one of ownership.

But we have determined that what we are extends beyond our skin and into
our belongings and our privacy.  There is nothing wrong with ownership,
or even slavery, if one is a willing slave.

Submission is either yielded or conquered.  The former is the submission God
asks; the latter than humans understand better, unfortunately.

(Personally, I find it blashphemous to reject the Word of God.)


================================================================================
Note 783.44 LGP30::FLEISCHER "without vision the people perish (DTN 223-8576, M
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>        Of course the 10 are incomplete.

Actually, I don't think they are.  I think commandment 1 and the greatest
commandment go hand in hand, and encompass (completely) all commandments of
God.  Jesus said that the greatest commandment encompasses all the law and the
prophets combined.

================================================================================
Note 783.46   CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    The premise of the 10th commandment is not a bad one.  Its weakness lies
>    in its patriarchal bias.

Speaking from a bias, it seems.

These are amazing concepts, I admit, and very unorthodox.  But I shouldn't be
surprised.  The idea that subjectivity is valued over objectivity (Re: .34)
flies in the face of justice and fairness for all people.

Mark
(more when I have the time, though I may try and catch up first)

    271.559
    
    Leslie,
    
    All I'm saying, however, is that the command to observe the shabbat
    in the decalogue is not one of the 'thou shalt nots,' but one of the
    'thou shalts.'
    
    I believe the only other one that is stated not as a prohibition in
    the decalogue is the one to honor one's parents.
    
    Richard
    

>    I believe the only other one that is stated not as a prohibition in
>    the decalogue is the one to honor one's parents.

In the Jewish numbering system, the first commandment is simply "I am the
L-rd thy G-d". -- i.e. the commandment to accept YHWH as God.

Chart of the numbering of the Ten Commandments, listing the verses of Exodus 20
involved:

         Jewish		     Roman Catholic	     Anglican and Protestant

I	 2    IAM	    2-6	  IAM,only,idols	2-3  IAM,only
II	3-6   only,idols     7	  name			4-6  idols
III	 7    name          8-11  sabbath		 7   name
IV	8-11  sabbath	     12	  parents		8-11 sabbath
V	 12   parents	     13	  murder		 12  parents
VI	 13   murder	     14	  adultery		 13  murder
VII	 14   adultery	     15	  theft			 14  adultery
VIII	 15   theft	     16	  false witness		 15  theft
IX	 16   false witness  17   covet wife		 16  false witness
X	 17   covet	     17   covet property	 17  covet

    I have heard that the term decalogue, which means 'ten words,' is perhaps
    more suitable than the ten commandments, eliminating the need to number
    the commandments therein.
    
    Richard
    

    Richard,

    You are right, the commands to observe, remember, and keep the shabbat 
    are positive commands, however the command to NOT work on the shabbat is a 
    negative command.  

    Judaism does not make a lot of distinction between "the 10" as Christianity
    knows them, and other commandments in the Torah. Traditionally, it is said
    there are 613 commandments, but that is not necessarily an exact numbering
    system. If you went through the Torah and counted up all the commandments,
    you might not come up with 613. There have been a few attempts to itemize 
    them and if people are interested, I'll see if I can dig up an example. 

    If people are interested in the Jewish approach to the commands in the 
    Torah, you should seek information on the Talmudic writings. I'd suggest 
    reading an introductory work, rather that going straight to the Talmud as
    the layout is rather complex, and there is a prescribed way to approach it
    that you would not know on your own. It really requires a teacher. 

    I wasn't trying to identifiy commandments one by one in my previous reply.
    All I was saying is that the traditional Jewish approach is that a 
    positive command outweighs a negative command when one is confronted with
    a situation where to be obedient to one would make you disobedient to the
    other. The command to not work on the shabbat is an easy example of that
    type of situation. That is why I used it. I did not use it because I was
    trying to single the shabbat out in any way.
  
    Leslie

    .7
    
    Thanks, Leslie.
    
    Richard