Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Interesting.  Another letter directed toward Theophilus and the greek
    society.  My hunch on the importance or lack of, I question now because
    this gospel includes the geneology of Abraham i Christ as well.  Why
    would the greeks cared about this?
    
    -Jack

In his book, "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism," Bishop John Spong
presents the interesting speculation that Luke attempted to parallel Jesus
with Elijah.

Peace,
Richard

	to present:  Christ as Slave-Savior.

ace

    RE 793.14
    
    Richard,
    
    Interestingly, the women's Bible Commentary identifies Luke as perhaps
    the least Feminist of the Gospels.  The comments are that women are
    potrayed more in Luke than in other Gospels but that they are always
    potrayed in very traditional ways.  Pondering, and  silient.
    
    The author of the commentary addresses Luke/Acts as a unit and makes
    the argument that the discussions in Luke are introductory to the real
    message of Luke which is given in Acts.  Acts identifies no women as
    disciples or apostles, has very few named women, and in cases where
    women could not be left out, such as in the case of priscilla, says
    very little about the leadership role that priscilla played.
    
    When the discussion of women in Acts is compared with Paul's letters
    for instances, the role of women as apostles, missionaries, and church
    leaders comes out much more strongly in Paul's letter.
    
    It is an interesting commentary.  Each commentary in the Woman's Bible
    Commentary is written by a different author, so it is difficult to
    compare the treatment of Luke with other Gospels.
    
    The Gospel of Mark, may in fact be the more liberating  of the Gospels.
    
    Patricia

    Author Max Lucado said something on his radio show last night that I've
    generally been saying in here for months:
    
    Matthew presents the Kingship of Christ.
    Mark presents Christ as the Suffering Servant (Shamash) of man.
    Luke presents the humanity of Christ.
    John presents the Deity of Christ.
    
    Mike

    .4  Patricia,
    
    	It's just my opinion.  And I confess, I've not given the matter
    concentrated or systematic attention.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    Richard,
    
    I too was surprised by the commentary regarding Luke.  It does follow
    though when Luke and Act are evaluated together.
    
    I am trying to hold each Gospel as separate.  The depth of each
    surprises me.  I now have an inkling why some scholars can spend their
    whole life studying just one book.
    
                                Patricia

    In the first 3 verses of chapter 8 of Luke, the author seems to go
    out of his way to demonstrate how integral women were in the mobile
    ministry of Jesus.  I have to admit though that these woman are not
    in leadership positions.
    
    In 8.3b Luke says, "and many other women who used their own resources
    to help Jesus and his disciples."  I didn't know women in this era
    were even allowed to have resources of their own.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

    In the Gospels and in Luke, there are several examples of rich women
    who support the ministry of Jesus and the early church.  The questions
    raised by the Gospel of Luke is whether women and men share an equal
    discipleship or whether only men are true disciples and women's role is
    to support the church through material gifts and womanly service.
    
    In luke men are called to radical discipleship.  give up all you have
    and follow me.  There appears to be a different standard for women.
    
    Also in those wonderful parables, the prodigal son and the Good
    samaritan, what is the inspiration for women in these parables.  The
    commentary suggested that the parable of the prodigal son can also be
    called the parable of the missing mother.  Women are invisible in both
    parables. 
    
    Why?
    
    Richard, I don't have any answers to these questions.  As a woman, I do
    find some of the questions disturbing.  Two years ago when I went to
    the UUA General Assembly and was bouncing back and forth between the UU
    christian Fellowship program and the UU Covenant of Pagan program, I
    remember be very offended by the UUCF discussion of the Prodigal Son
    parable.   It really stressed God as the  Forgiving Father forgiving
    the erring son while also embracing the older son.  No mother, no
    sisters, no daughters. 
    
    It was a relief for me to attend the Pagan ceremony where I had a feeling
    that my humanity was also being celebrated.  That remains the struggle
    I embrace.  How do I hold up for myself all the wonderful things about
    Christianity when every time I participate in a Christian service I
    feel marginalized by the symbols.
    
                                  Patricia

re Note 792.9 by POWDML::FLANAGAN:

>     I remember be very offended by the UUCF discussion of the Prodigal Son
>     parable.   It really stressed God as the  Forgiving Father forgiving
>     the erring son while also embracing the older son.  No mother, no
>     sisters, no daughters. 
  
        Is it really necessary to be offended that a particular story
        does not mention certain things or include certain types of
        people?  Or were you only offended by the course of this
        particular discussion?

        Bob

    Patricia,
    
>    that my humanity was also being celebrated.  That remains the struggle
>    I embrace.  How do I hold up for myself all the wonderful things about
>    Christianity when every time I participate in a Christian service I
>    feel marginalized by the symbols.
    
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is
neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Jesus used parables as object lessons, that not only ministered to the
    culture of the day, but contained deep spiritual truths as well.  I
    believe your focus is on the wrong thing and is hindering your walk
    with Christ.  I think you will experience the freedom you seek if you 
    stop looking to symbols and look to Christ.  The theme of the prodigal
    child wouldn't change if it was about a mother and her daughter.  The
    point is that you can never stray so far to a point where God's grace
    wouldn't still save you.  This is the freedom we should celebrate -
    God's glorious grace and love for us.
    
    God Bless,
    Mike

    Bob,
    
    If it was only one story that did not included women or did not treat women
    as an integral part of the story, then it would not make any difference. 
    There is in fact very little in the Bible that treats women as an
    integral part of the story.  What this means for me as a woman who has
    learned to understand this marginalization as part of my history and
    the history of my fore mothers and sisters is that I have to work extra
    hard at finding meaning and inspiration in the stories.  I now know
    that this is not fair and it is not right.
    
    The empowering question for me, is what do I do about it.  Can I find
    meaning and inspiration in the Christian Bible even as I recognize it
    as a androcentric book.  Many women have answered this question no and
    they turn to creating there own spiritual symbols as an alternative. 
    This is what I think neo-paganism is all about.  I accept neo-paganism
    as a wonderful and valid search for spiritual meaning.  I however am
    not sure that the problems inherent in creating and celebrating new
    symbols are not as great as dealing with the problems in identifying
    and reforming the androcentric nature of Christianity.  I personally do
    not think that neo paganism is part and parcel of ancient paganism but
    then perhaps modern Christianity is not part and parcel of ancient
    Christianity.
    
    I have not given up on the possibility that there is something more
    wonderful and more powerful in Christianity than the male centered form and
    symbols in which CHristianity is clothed.
    
    I must however read the bible and participate in CHristianity with a
    constant suspicion and questioning mind.  This inhibits worship.  A big
    part of my concern about the UU Christian Fellowship was in recognizing
    that group as the conservative wing of the UU church and in reality
    further behind then some progressive Christian churches in dealing with
    the issue of gender within Christianity.  I was very surprised at how
    insensitive to the issue of gender the group was.  I expected more
    because it is a UU group.  I find Christian worship in the more liberal
    Congregations of  United Church of Christ as much more progressive and
    sensitive to the issue.  Feminists who remain within Christianity are
    doing much more to 'reform' Christianity from its male biases.  Most of
    the feminists within Unitarian Universalism find alternatives to
    Christianity.
    
    Within Unitarian Universalism, I will preach that there is much in
    Christianity beyond the male form that deserves attention.  Within the
    Christian Community, I will preach that the form can be altered and
    reformed without harming the essentials of the religion.  The challenge
    to Christians is to be clear about  the essentials of Christianity that
    conform with and meets the needs of a Non mythical, egalitarian world view.
    
    If Christianity wants to teach that women should be subordinate to men,
    then feminists, both women and men will ultimately leave Christianity. 
    If Christianity itself asserts that this is erroneous teaching and must
    be corrected, then Christianity can continue to play a vital role in
    the modern world.  I personally would like to see Christianity be very
    clear on asserting that this is erroneous teaching so that it can
    continue to play a vital role.
    
    So what is the Good News of Christianity?
    
                                      Patricia
    
    
    

>    
>    So what is the Good News of Christianity?
>    

	Christ has died.
	Christ is risen.
	Christ will come again.

/john

    Is that the same as 
    
    Christ, the man has died.
    Christ, the man has risen.
    Christ, the man will come again.
    
    Is that your version of the good news.  Is there more?  Is not that
    definition incomplete?  
    
    How about, Christ, the incarnation of God in humanity, Lives!!!
    
    Patricia

But Christ is not just a man, but God and Man.

The implications of that Good News are great.

	For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten
	Son, that whosoever should believe in him should not perish,
	but have everlasting life.

/john

re.14 Patricia,

>   How about, Christ, the incarnation of God in humanity, Lives!!!

	Oh, yes!  I do like it, I do , I do , I do!

	That is refreshing.
thx,
ace

re.17  Richard

	Both. Because the many sons follow the Firstborn Son.

regards,
ace