Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Fairly similar to Matt I believe except directed toward the Gentiles.
    This is why the geneology is omitted in this gospel.  The Jews cared
    about such things but the gentiles couldn't care less.
    
    Other input appreciated!
    
    -Jack

    I read the first ten chapters of Mark again last night.  The main
    messages from the first ten chapters.
    
    Jesus heals.
    Jesus is compassionate.
    Jesus heals Jews and Gentiles both.
    Jesus is patient with his disciples who don't always understand.
    Jesus is deeply concerned about the well being of the multitude.
    
    
    The images of Jesus potrayed are
    
    Jesus the healer
    Jesus the teacher
    Jesus the story teller
    Jesus the prophet
    Jesus the second coming of Elijah
    Jesus the Messiah.
    
    The Jesus potrayed in the first ten chapters of Mark is not God.  He is
    the son of God.  He is humble, compassionate, yet strong.  He has the
    power to exorcise even the most difficult demons.  God the father is
    quoted twice as being very pleased with his Son, once at Jesus' baptism
    and a second time at the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the mountain
    with Jesus.  
    
    There is lots of reference in these chapters to Jesus as the son of God
    and separate from God.  I found no evidence that would suggest that
    Jesus is God.  Perhaps latter in Mark that will be more apparent.
    
    I would like to better understand what "Messiah" means.  Can anyone
    help?
    
    
    Thanks
    
    Patricia

re .3

	Patricia,

	From what I remember the Messiah means the "Anointed One". It's time 
	to go home here in the UK, I'll do a little research for you tonight 
	and get back to you as to what the title Messiah entails.

	It looks like you enjoyed your study.

	Phil.

    The Messiah was the long-awaited deliverer, the savior, the
    one who would release the people from bondage.  The Jews who
    were looking for this individual were looking for another Moses
    or a military champion, like David.
    
    The Messiah was not anticipated to be God Incarnate, both human
    and Divine, pre-existant or immortal.
    
    "Messiah" is Hebrew for the Greek word "Christ."  Both mean "annointed"
    (as with oil).  Annointing was done to signify the one being annointed
    was being set apart for a special purpose, such as serving as king.  We
    derive our modern word "christen" from the same Greek root.
    
    Shalom,
    Richard
    

There are two endings to Mark.  Both are widely believed to have been
appended on later by someone other than the original author.  Mark
leaves you with the empty grave, almost as if to say to the reader,
"You figure it out."

Shalom,
Richard

    Yesterday night I read and pondered Mark 11-16.  It is hard to identify
    the Main message of these chapters.  Perhaps it is that the Pharisees
    and religious leaders of the day were afraid of and hostile to the
    radical message of Jesus.  They resented his simple healing and his
    respect for the simple person over the well to do and established. 
    They were so frightened by Jesus' message that they plotted to kill him
    and succeeded.
    
    The image of Jesus in these chapters is a very human image.  We witness
    many emotions as we read.  We witness his frustration taken out on the
    fig tree, his anger in the temple, his grieve and anguish in
    Gethsemane, His loneliness and acceptance of Peter and James and John
    who just could not stay awake.  We witness Jesus' fear and desire for
    "the cup to be taken from him, but also his desire to do his father's
    will.  We see his resolve and courage as he greets the soldier and
    finally on the Cross we witness Jesus' despair.  Abba, Abba, why have
    you forsaken me.  The Jesus potrayed in the gospel of Mark is a very
    real Jesus.  Very human.  Who could not be moved by the story as
    potrayed in this Gospel.

>    The image of Jesus in these chapters is a very human image.

Of course.  Jesus is fully human.  And fully divine.

	Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord
	teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus
	Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood,
	truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul
	and body; of one substance (homoousios) with the Father as
	regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance
	with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart
	from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before
	the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men
	and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer
	(Theotokos); one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten,
	recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change,
	without division, without separation; the distinction of
	natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the
	characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming
	together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or
	separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-
	begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets
	from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ
	himself taught us, and the creed of the Fathers has handed
	down to us.	-- Council of Chalcedon, 451 A.D.

    John,
    
    What's your point?  Mark does not have a baby in the Manger.  Are we
    able to read Mark ourselves and discern what it says or do we need to
    funnel everything through the elaborate theology of the holy fathers?
    
    My point is that each of the Gospels potrays a different image of
    Jesus.  I have not personally decided whether those images are
    complementary or contradictory.  Let's let the gospels speak for
    themselves.  
    
    Patricia

RE .3

	Patricia,

	Regarding Messiah, here are some details:
	
	Messiah comes from the Hewbrew root verb 'Mashach', meaning
	'smear' hence 'anoint'. Messiah (Mashi'ach) means 'anointed'
	and as Richard has pointed out Christ ( Khristos sp?) is the 
	Greek equivelent of Messiah (see John 1:41).

	It was generally accepted by the Jews back then that the Messiah
	would be a king in the line of David. It was prophesied that he 
	would be born in Bethelem, Micah 5:2, in fact there are many
	prophecies regarding the Messiah. 

	A false expectation of the Jews was that the Messiah back then
	would release them from oppressive foreign rule. Even Jesus' 
	disciples failed to grasp this false expectation, for example in 
	Acts 1:6 NWT they asked him "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom 
	to Israel at this time?" . The time for the kingdom had not come,
	also Jesus' disciples had to preach about it first to the most 
	distant lands (Acts 1:8).

	Many times one sees the term "Jesus Christ" or "Christ Jesus" in the
	Bible, this shows that they recognised Jesus as the Messiah.


	Phil.
	

    Phil,
    
    Thanks for the research.  So the term Messiah, Christ, and King of the
    Jews are equivalent terms?
    
    Patricia

    .11  Roughly, yes.  Messiah and Christ, definately.
    
    Richard
    
    PS  Hope you don't mind.  I'm not Phil.
    

	to present:   Christ the Man-Savior.


ace

>    The Jesus potrayed in the first ten chapters of Mark is not God.  He is
>    the son of God.

If Jesus is the son of God, and God is not human, and hence does not produce
sons the way we do, how did the son get here?

-Steve

If Mark did not mean to portray Jesus as God, why did he write

   And he cured many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out
   many demons; and he would not permit the demons to speak, because
   they knew him.   (Mark 1:34)  

Just who did these demons know Jesus to be?

Take also a close look at Mark's portrayal of Jesus in 12:35-37a

   While Jesus was teaching in the temple, he said, "How can the scribes
   say that the Messiah is the son of David?  David himself, by the
   Holy Spirit, declared,
	`The Lord said to my Lord,
	"Sit at my right hand,
	  until I put your enemies under your feet."'
   David himself calls him Lord; so how can he be his son?"

In Mark's gospel, Jesus tells us that he will come in the glory of his Father
with the holy angels (8:38b).  That is not the portrayal of a mere human; it
is a portrayal of the person of God the Son, the Incarnate Word of the Father.

	For those who want to save their life will lose it,
	and those who lose their life for my sake, and for
	the sake of the gospel will save it.  For what will
	it profit them to gain the whole world and forfeit
	their life?  Indeed, what can they give in return
	for their life?			(Mark 8:35-37)

/john

    Re.14
    
    Steve,
    
    I suspect it may be similar to the way we *first* got here.  (;^)
    
    More seriously though, this isn't specifically Christian, however the
    Word that is mentioned in the Bible and elsewhere, is really a
    non-spoken intention in the 'field of all possibilities', and when
    the Word is made manifest, the vibration is set up to create whatever
    the original intention was in the unmanifested field, and in this
    particular case, the Word becomes flesh.  Or, Mary becomes pregnant
    apart from the 'usual way', since God can basically do anything.  
    
    Although it's been a while since I've read up on these things, the
    'virgin birth' is a very common recurring story when it comes to
    avatars visiting Earth.  (Reference - a few works by Joseph Campbell.)
    
    It'd be interesting to read Christian responses on this.
    
    Cindy

    In the OT, Israel is sometimes called the son of God.  That is not
    to say that there is a biological link (although there is a link).
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

Mark - the shortest of the gospels.  Legend has it that the work was dictated
to Mark by Peter.  In Mark, it seems like nobody except demonic entities, 
recognizes Jesus for who he is - and Jesus kept hushing up his spiritual
adversaries.

Mark keeps pointing throughout the gospel, but never comes right out and says
who this strange and wonderful man with the message of eternal salvation
is.

Mark's treatment of the disciples is decidedly less reverential than either
Matthew or Luke.  The disciples keep coming off as dull and slow of wit,
nearly clownishly so.
    
Mark features no birth story, no highly evolved theological statements.  Yet,
Mark, at the time of its writing, would have been perceived as dangerously
subversive.  According to Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer, when Mark opens with "This
is the Good News (gospel) of Jesus Christ," Mark uses a term commonly used
by military leaders to report to government officials that all the enemies
have been defeated and that "we have the victory."

Peace,
Richard

    What's an avatar?

    
>    Although it's been a while since I've read up on these things, the
>    'virgin birth' is a very common recurring story when it comes to
>    avatars visiting Earth.  (Reference - a few works by Joseph Campbell.)
    
 

     Is giving one's life for the sins of others (many of whom could care
     less) a common recurring story?



   
 Jim

    Steve,
    
    Great question steve?
    
    I'm excited about going back and reading the answers
    
    Patricia

    > Is giving one's life for the sins of others (many of whom could care
    > less) a common recurring story?
    
    Actually, yes.
    
    			Alfred

    What does lord mean?
    
    What does Lord mean?
    
    Is Lord and God synonomous?
    
    Jesus clearly is shown with powers to drive out demons?
    Does he have this gift as a gift from God or because he is God?
    
    How do the apostles get this gift?
    
    Do they too become God's when they get this gift?
    
    Is the a substantial difference(other than the degree of perfection) in
    Jesus' gift of healing and the Apostles' gift of healing.
    
    In all the citations when Jesus talks about his father in Heaven and
    the bible talks about God sending his son, do these equate with I am my
    FAther.  I am my son?  I don't understand.  If God says he is sending
    his Son, how can he be sending himself.  If Jesus says he is doing his
    Father's will, how can he be doing his own will?  If Jesus is going to
    sit at the right hand of God, How can he be God?  If Jesus says Father,
    Father, why have you forsaken me, is he really forsaking himself.
    
    Now I can relate to an immanent God who is my alter ego, but is that
    what the equation of Jesus and God means?  
    
    It seems clear to me that the Bible abounds in proof that Jesus is
    separate from God.  Perhaps Jesus can be divine and still be separate
    from God.  Perhaps each of us can participate in divinity and still be
    separate from God.
    
    Patricia
    
    still questioning,
    
    

    
    Nancy,
    
    An avatar is a manifestation of God in human form, coming to Earth 
    for a specific purpose.  
    
    Some avatars are born to virgins, others are not.  Some choose to
    work out the karma (a semi-close approximation of 'sins') of others 
    through their own bodies (and in Christ's case, he gave his life), 
    and for others, it is not what they are here to accomplish.  Some
    avatars work quietly on their mission, never making their presence 
    known to humankind, and others do (Christ, for example.)
    
    Cindy

    .23
    
    And from where do you have evidence that there has been more then ONE
    avatar?  And are they all virginal births?

    
    Re.24
    
    Nancy,
    
    >And from where do you have evidence that there has been more then ONE
    >avatar? 
    
    From historical records and stories of other cultures and religions.  
    
    >And are they all virginal births?
    
    That question was answered in .23, beginning of the second paragraph.
    
    Cindy
                                

    Okay, 
    
    I read this...  

Note 791.22

>    What does Lord mean?

El Jeffe, the Boss, the Supreme Ruler, the Divine Sovereign.
In the Hebrew Bible, the name of God was considered too sacred to utter
or even cast one's gaze upon.  In copying the texts, it became a tradition
to change the name to the Hebrew word, "Adonai," which means Lord.
    
>    Is Lord and God synonomous?

Well...Not entirely.  And unfortunately, I only have a cursory knowledge of
this area.  The words are different in Hebrew.  When you see the word "Lord"
in the Hebrew Bible, the translator is translating a different word than when
the Hebrew word for God is translated.

I believe Paul considered God and Christ synonymous.  He sometimes referenced
them alternately to reinforce the inextricable intertwining 'twixt the two.

Peace,
Richard

    Richard,
    
    I don't agree that Paul used Christ and god synonomously.  His thinking
    is very hierarchical but he clearly identifies them differently.
    
    First Corinthians appears to clearly separate God and Christ.
    
    Patricia

I read Mark the other night.

It is a gospel full of action.  There is very little
theology intended to instruct the reader, rather a
recounting of miracle upon miracle, then action upon
action.

Mark can be divided into two halves: 1-8:30 and 8:31-16.
The splitting point comes when Jesus asks Peter,
"Who do you say that I am?".  When Peter acknowledged
that He was the Son of the living God, then Jesus started
to talk about his upcoming death.  It is clear that his
death (not just the fact that he would die, but the death
itself) is important.  When Peter challenges this talk,
Jesus rebukes him in the strongest possible terms.  Jesus
states, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself,
and take up his cross and follow me.  For whoever wants
to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life
for me and for the gospel will save it."

What is this gospel that Jesus mentioned as being so 
important?  In Mark 1, Jesus says, "The time has come.  The
kingdom of God is near.  Repent [this one's for you, Bob :-)]
and believe the good news!"  

In Mark 13, Jesus notes that "And the gospel must first be
preached to all the nations."  Not much else is said specifically
about the gospel until the disputed verses in Mark 16 where
Jesus says, "Go into all the world and preach the good news
to all creation.  Whoever believes and is baptized will be
saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

The story itself is the good news.  But to truly learn what
the gospel is and all that it means, we need to look back to 
the Old Testament (which Mark points us to) and over to the 
other New Testament writers.  Mark doesn't explain hardly 
anything; he simply presents it.

Collis