Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Re: .0 Richard

From on "Asimov's Guide to the Bible" (pages 149-150)...

>So what are these thangs?
How did they work?  Like dice?

	  The most frequent guess is that the Urim and Thummin represent a
	form of lot used for guidance in determining the will of God.
	There might be one type object indicating "yes" and another
	indicating "no" and if yes-no questions are put, the answers are
	given by the type of object which pops out of the pouch.  It is
	even possible that a blank object was also included, one which
	signified neither yes nor no, indicating that divine guidance was
	refused.

	....

	  The Revised Standard Version, however, accepts a version of 1
	Samuel 14:41 which is fuller than that found in the King James and
	which, indeed, makes matters explicit: "Therefore Saul said, 'O
	Lord God of Israel, why hast thou not answered my servant this day?
	If this guilt is in me or Jonathan my son, O Lord, God of Israel,
	give Urim; but if this guilt is in thy people Israel, give
	Thummim.'  And Jonathan and Saul were taken, but the people
	escaped."

>And why was their use discontinued, if indeed their use was discontinued?

All "Asimov's Guide" says is that "This sort of guidance by lot passsed out
of use before the end of the Old Testament period."

I can certainly see the disadvantages of a system of government in which
important decisions are made by drawing lots!

				-- Bob

.1  Thanks, Bob!

>I can certainly see the disadvantages of a system of government in which
>important decisions are made by drawing lots!

Yeah, me too!  But sometimes I wonder if we've really come up with something
better.  ;-}

There must've been a bit of a carry-over to New Testament times.  As recorded
in Acts, Judas Iscariot's replacement was selected by drawing lots.

Shalom,
Richard

    
>There must've been a bit of a carry-over to New Testament times.  As recorded
>in Acts, Judas Iscariot's replacement was selected by drawing lots.

    The Bible speaks of drawing lots more then a few times. Remember that
    the crew of Jonah's ship drew lots to see who should be tossed
    overboard. And the Roman solders drew lots to see who would get Jesus'
    robe. I'm sure there are others as well.

    The Temple priests may have stopped using some form of lot throwing, if
    that is what is was, but many people did not and even have not to this
    day.

    			Alfred

    .3  Ah yes, Alfred, quite true.  I guess I was thinking of drawing
    lots as a means of determining God's will, though I don't recall it
    saying that precisely in Acts when the new twelfth was drawn.
    
    Do you suppose that the Israelites came to the conclusion that random
    chance doesn't neccesarily reflect God's will?
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

        
    >Do you suppose that the Israelites came to the conclusion that random
    >chance doesn't neccesarily reflect God's will?

    Probably. That is not to say that God can't or even doesn't use items
    such as dice to indicate His will. What probably happened is the they
    concluded that sometimes God lets the die fall at random. It's like a
    saying I read today. "A smart man believes only half of what he hears.
    A wise man knows which half to believe."

    It is possible that God gave some the gift to know when the die fell
    on it's own and when it fell as God willed it. It's also possible that
    "politics" clouded the water over time causing the process to lose
    support and confidence.
    
    			Alfred

    I don't have scripture or knowledge enough to support this but I heard
    in a class once that drawing lots was a pagan practice, not something
    to be practiced.  Then again, how did the apostles choose Matthias as
    the twelth apostle, by casting their lots!!
    
    -Jack

Re: .6 Jack

Yes, some people are quick to denounce certain things as being pagan or
evil without sufficient reason for doing so.

				-- Bob