Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I never really thought about it. But I guess if you are unaware of
    the passage of time it doesn't really matter. Perception being so
    much of reality does it make a difference? Perhaps perhaps not.

    		Alfred

    from an old spiritual that I heard often as a child...
    
    "Well there ain't no grave, gonna hold my body down.
    No, there ain't no grave gonna hold my body down.
    On that resurrection morning, gonna hear that trumpet sound.
    'Cause there ain't no grave, gonna hold my body down."
    
    I like to do my aerobics to this one!
    
    Ruth

In Acts 23.6-9, Paul throws the council a curve ball.  Knowing there is
disagreement on the issue between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, he
throws out the concept of the resurrection of the dead.

Is the resurrection of the dead the same thing as the dead realizing
immortal life in a place called Heaven?

I don't think so.

Richard

Richard,

I felt like discussing the resurrection hope, of which
Paul calls a "primary doctrine" (Hebrews 6:1,2) and saw
your note 767.3. Well nearly a year since you asked the
question.....

;Is the resurrection of the dead the same thing as the dead realizing
;immortal life in a place called Heaven?

Revelation 20:6 NWT "Happy and holy is anyone having a part in
the first resurrection; over these the second death has no
authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and
will rule as kings with him for the thousand years."

So for some this will indeed mean immortal life in the heavens.
But note, that this is spoken of as the "first resurrection"
which indicates that there will be another. Those resurrected
in the "first resurrection" are spoken of as ruling with christ
for a thousand years as kings. And as Revelation 5:9,10 shows
these ones will rule over the earth in a heavenly kingdom.

The Lord's prayer mentions "Let your kingdom come. Let your will
take place as in heaven, also upon earth" Matthew 6:10 NWT. 
With Jesus Christ as anointed king of God's kingdom, God's will
will take place on earth. Part of God's purpose is for a resurrection
of the dead, which includes the righteous such as John the Baptist
and the unrighteous that is those who through ignorance have not been
able to come to know God (compare Acts 24:15, John 17:3). With Christ
and the anointed ruling in the heavens over the earth, the conditions
will be right for all resurrected persons to come to know Jehovah God
and his Christ. Isaiah 11:9 promises that the earth will be filled with
the knowledge of Jehovah during this time period. Though resurrected
the will not have immortal life, they will still have to undergo the
test by Satan the Devil at the end of the thousand year rule (compare
Revelation 20:7-13) and as this portion of scripture shows persons
will be judged according to their deeds during the thousand years and
test of Satan the Devil. Those that keep their integrity towards their
God Jehovah will reap everlasting life on a paradise earth as promised
in the Hebrew scriptures, for example Proverbs 2:21-22 NWT reads
"For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the
blameless are the ones that will be left over it. As regards the
wicked, they will be cutt off the earth, and as for the treacherous,
they will be torn away from it." (also compare Psalm 37:9-11). Everything
will be as Jehovah originally intended (Isaiah 55:11, Genesis 1:28).

So you are right not all receive a resurrection to immortal life
in the heavens. As mentioned earlier one such person is John the
Baptist, and for this reason Jesus once said ......
"Truly I say to YOU people, Among those born of women there has
not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person
that is a lessor one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than
he is." Matthew 11:11 NWT Jesus could only say this if entry in to 
the kingdom of havens was somehow limited (Revelation 14:1-4). The
vast majority will receive an earthly resurrection (John 5:28-29).


Phil.

> and the unrighteous that is those who through ignorance have not been
> able to come to know God (compare Acts 24:15, John 17:3). 

> As regards the wicked, they will be cutt off the earth, and as for the 
> treacherous, they will be torn away from it." (also compare Psalm 37:9-11). 


phil, are your saying that even the unrighteous will be reawakened only
to be cut off the earth?

if both the righteous and the unrighteous will be reawakened does that leave
anyone out?


andreas.

re .5

;phil, are your saying that even the unrighteous will be reawakened only
;to be cut off the earth?

Andreas,

No, that is not what I was saying. John 17:3 reads "This means everlasting
life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one
whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." Many have lived in ignorance, as
regards accurate knowledge, of the only true God. Also many died long
before Christ had even come to the earth. Many have not had the opportunity
to hear the good news, in fact for many centuries God's word was hidden from
the common people. Hence, many have not had the opportunity to excercise
faith and therefore how could they be judged righteous?. With the resurrection
persons will be given to the opportunity to choose either life or death.
Ofcourse, some will choose life but there will be those that rebel against
God. During the time of Christs melenial rule Satan and his demons will be
abyssed and therefore will not exert an influence on mankind. The conditions
will be right for persons to make an informed choice.

One should also note that Paul mentioned that "the wages sin pays is death",
so the unrighteous having paid that price will be resurrected with a clean
sheet as it were (Romans 6:23).

;if both the righteous and the unrighteous will be reawakened does that leave
;anyone out?

This is for Jehovah to decide whom not to remember. However, scripture tells 
us that those who are judged adversely when Jesus comes to judge the earth will
depart into "everlasting cutting off", this is mentioned in the illustration
of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46). Judas is another who will not 
receive a resurrection. If one was an eye witness to the Messiah's miracles 
and teaching and still rejected Jesus, it would seem pointless for Jehovah to 
feel that such a one is worthy of a resurrection in the new system. So yes it 
would seem that some will not receive a resurrection.

An interesting scripture is Acts 17:30-31 NWT "True, God has overlooked the
times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all 
everywhere repent. Because he has set a day in which he has set a day in 
which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by man whom
he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he
has resurrected him from the dead."

Jesus' resurrection guarantees that there will be a resurrection of the dead.
For this reason early Christians could keep their integrity towards God
even in the face of death such as in the Roman arenas. But Paul was saying
that now is the time to repent, so as turn around from were this world
is heading and seek God (1 John 2:17, Zephaniah 2:3).

Hope this helps

Phil.

correct me if i am wrong but you are still saying that everyone (apart 
from whom jehovah decides not to remember) is resurrected to be given 
the opportunity to choose either life or death.

you are saying that the unrighteous having paid that price (death) will 
be resurrected with a clean sheet as it were, to make that choice between 
life and death. aren't you?

i understand this is your faith, fine. if you don't mind me asking, how 
do you expect a happy sinner to convert to this faith if he already knows 
he gets another opportunity for free? 

if he happens to be the anti-authoritarian type who prefers not to be a 
"king" (which, as it appears the first batch of resurrected must become for 
a thousand years) what is to motivate this fellow to convert??


andreas.

re .7

Andreas,

;i understand this is your faith, fine. if you don't mind me asking, how 
;do you expect a happy sinner to convert to this faith if he already knows 
;he gets another opportunity for free? 

Knowledge brings accountibility, hence I quoted Acts 17:30-31 in my last 
reply. Also I mentioned Jesus' illustration of the "sheep and the goats". 
During this time Jesus and his angels are conducting a separating work. 
People are judged on how they treat Christ's brothers (& sisters), this 
would include how one responds to the Good News & judgment message that 
Christ's brothers have the responsibility of preaching.

One has to understand that God judges a person by their figurative heart,
what they are on the inside. If one realises the need for repentance, then 
our actions will tell us something about the inclination of ones heart. 
If one procratinates now, then what chance of repentance later before 
it's to late?. 

Further, it is the interpretation of Jehovah's Witnesses that we are 
living, a long time into the period of when the sheep and the goats
are being separated. Armageddon gets ever closer, it would be a
shame to put off repentance because of the things we might get out of 
this world before it passes away and miss out on God's new system.

As 1 John 2:15-17 NWT reads "Do not be loving either the world or the
things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father
is not in him; because everything in the world - the desire of the flesh
and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of ones means of life
- does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world.
Furthermore the world is passing away and so its desire, but he that
does the will of God remains forever."

So the emphasis is for repentance, that is to turn around from where this 
world is heading and seek God (compare Matthew 7:13-14).

But why do Jehovah's Witnesses interpret this has the time when people are
being separated. Well Jesus was asked the question by his disciples "what
will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of
things?" (Matthew 24:3 NWT). Jesus went on to answer and gave certain signs 
to look for such as wars, food shortages, earthquakes, increase in lawlessness,
love of the greater number cooling off etc. These things would be witnessed on
a global scale.  But the major sign in this composite sign would be......
"And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited
earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come." Matthew
24:14 NWT So the inhabited earth would experience a preaching work were 
listening ears would be informed of God's intentions to bring into place a 
heavenly kingdom that will rule over the earth (Daniel 2:44) Apart from 
Matthew 24 the composite sign is further discussed in Luke 21, Mark 13, 
2 Timothy 3:1-5, Revelation 6. One scripture that sticks in my mind is 
Revelation 11:18b NWT where we are told Jehovah God will "bring to ruin those 
ruining the earth". This century seems to be the first time in history that 
man has tipped the balance and is literally ruining the earth on a global 
scale. Fortunately, this scripture shows that God will step in before the earth 
becomes ruined. So World wars, famine on large scale, man ruining the earth
etc all goes to show that we are living in the time when Christ and his
angels are separating the sheep and the goats.

;if he happens to be the anti-authoritarian type who prefers not to be a 
;"king" (which, as it appears the first batch of resurrected must become for 
;a thousand years) what is to motivate this fellow to convert??

It is down to obedience, for example Moses felt inadequate to approach
Pharoah as well as leading the nation of Israel out of captivity. But 
through faith and obedience and Jehovah's backing he fulfilled that role. 
These ones that take part in the "first resurrection" are called by God 
and it's not of their own choosing. They want to be faithful servants to 
their God so are happy with whatever assignment they are given. Same too, 
those who look forward to everlasting life on earth. 1 John 5:3 NWT reads 
"For this is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments, 
and yet his commandments are not burdensome,". 


The wonderful thing about the resurrection hope is that by means of it many
who have died will have the opportunity to come to learn about God, his will 
and purposes. In turn they will come to see that life does have a purpose. All
the works of the Devil will be undone as man is brought back to perfection
and the earth will be restored to a paradise as it was in the garden of
Eden. As Revelation 21:3,4 NWT reads "With that I heard a loud voice from
the throne say: 'Look the tent of God is with mankind and he will reside
with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will wipe out
every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will
mourning nor out cry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed
away." 

However, the time to take in knowledge of God and act upon the things learnt
is now (Acts 17:30-31 & John 17:3). 
 
Phil.