Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Numbers 11:16-17,24-25
Psalms 40:1-14, 43, 84, 99, 100, 119:33-40, 132:8-19
Isaiah 6:1-8
Isaiah 42:1-9
Isaiah 61:1-8
Jeremiah 1:4-9
Ecclesiasticus 39:1-8
Matthew 9:35-38
Luke 12:35-38
Luke 22:24-27
Luke 24:44-49a
John 20:19-23
John 17:1-9,18-21
John 10:11-18
John 6:35-38
Acts 6:2-7
2 Corinthians 3:4-9
2 Corinthians 4:1-6
Ephesians 4:7,11-16
Philippians 4:4-9
1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 Timothy 3:8-13
Hebrews 5:1-10
1 Peter 5:1-4

These 2 Scriptures came immediately to mind for charges to the ordinands, Ron.

	John 10.7-16 A good shepherd's care
	John 13.1-17 The servant nature of leadership

I also find Isaiah 55.1-2 very pastoral, and yet I sense it's also the charge
of the church to invite, to nurture, and to serve in the spirit of the living
Christ.

Peace,
Richard

    Thanks for both your comments so far!
    
    John; I'm impressed that you could list so many verses with such little
    time between reading my request and your supplying these verses.  I
    certainly don't have such a command of scripture presence.  I liked the
    Numbers selection for use in the charge to the calling church and to
    the wider church.  Moses, the pastoral leader, knew it was more than he
    could do alone, this ministry, and those that were gathered were
    presented with a charge and then asked to go live their faith in the
    world for the world to the glory of God.
    
    We will continue to dig for the scripture and your continued
    suggestions will be most welcomed.
    
    Richard; Dot and I will get into your suggested verses this evening.
    
    	Shalom!
    
    	Ron
    

    re: the 1 Timothy referenced
    
    This kind of leaves Dot & I ought of the picture.  We've both been
    divorced, each after 20+ years of an earlier marriage.  Also, I
    certainly have NOT been able to keep my own household in order; my
    second oldest daughter OD'd on drugs/alcohol; she was unmanageable and
    my first wife and I found that we had to go thru the court system when
    she was just turning sixteen to have her become "owned" by the NH court
    system and then she went into foster homes (three of them!).  Also
    ionteresting is that my first wife was the leader of both youth groups
    at our church - which held a secret and closed meeting (Christian
    Education; this type of meeting is against the bylaws of the church);
    and the outcome of the meeting was "if you cannot manage your own
    family you CERTAINLY cannot be OUR youth group leader) - hmmmm; maybe
    they were reading 1 Timothy as proof text.
    
    Anyway, John; this one leaves me rather cold.
    
    	Peace,
    
    	Ron
    

 I believe the passages in 1 Timothy and 1 Peter are indicators of the 
 seriousness with which God looks at the role of a pastor (or elder) in 
 His church.  It is certainly not a role to be taken lightly.  I at one
 time felt that perhaps I had a calling to Pastor, til I realized that
 I did not meet many of the guidelines even while married.  And I certainly
 don't now that I am divorced.



Jim

    re .-1
    
    Jim,
    
    So what does it mean that Christ has set us free, that Christ has taken
    on the sins of the world, that God loves us, That Christ forgives us,
    that the Holy Spirit guides us?  I think God works thru us in many ways
    - and that life experiences - the good and the bad - are things that
    can help us shape our "new" lives.  So, is one who has done grievous
    things in the past to be shunned by God as a potential pastor of the
    people of God's church?
    
    My own life experiences contain many things, past actions that do NOT
    model the image of the "perfect" pastor, but things that I am truly
    sorry for and for which I have asked for God's forgiveness and, you
    know, I really think God has done just that.
    
    Jesus strips away our past and gives us new clothing.  Praise be to God
    for that!
    
    Many people have done heinous things and then have been marvelously
    touched by God in such a way that they are new people.  As new people,
    they often are led to new vocations or are led to being bringers of the
    light to those around them.
    
    Saul murdered; Paul ministered.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

 Perhaps my note came across more judgemental than I intended.  For me,
 I do not feel that even if I were to re-marry, even with God's forgiveness
 of the sin that was involved in the decision to divorce, I do not feel
 I could serve as a pastor.  I feel my past, even though forgiven by the 
 Lord, could damage my own testimony, but more importantly the testimony
 of the local church in which I was serving.  Humans aren't as forgiving
 as God is and I think we know what gossip and rumors can do to a church.
 

 My opinion of course.




 Jim

    Interesting discussion. I know people who have "interesting" pasts who
    have made great pastors. They overcame those pasts and I think that 
    contributed to their success. I don't think that God expect flawless
    pastors. I do think that God expects best efforts though.

    The issue of managing ones own house is an interesting one. I have
    heard of pastors losing (or coming close to losing) pastorates because
    they were unable to control their homes. I think that if a pastors
    household is in crisis he owes it to his family and to God to get 
    that house in order first. If this means a leave for a short time I
    think a church should support that leave. If it means a long term or
    even a permanent change I think a church should be supportive of that.

    I think a church should look favorably on a man who takes a leave and
    works hard to get his house in order. I think also that there should
    be some understanding of situations outside a persons control. Just
    because a child gets into trouble doesn't mean the parent is at fault.
    At least not always or totally. I don't think that I Timothy excludes
    that possibility or requires that everything always be perfect.

    Of course it does seem to require a pastor be a man and suggest that
    for advancement a wife is needful. :-) We probably don't all agree on
    that.

    			Alfred

Note 727.8

>    Of course it does seem to require a pastor be a man and suggest that
>    for advancement a wife is needful. :-) We probably don't all agree on
>    that.

Here's further evidence that the Bible was written for a male audience.

You'll notice the tenth commandment begins, "You shall not covet your
neighbor's wife."  It doesn't say anything about it not being okay for
a woman to covet her neighbor's husband.

Richard

    
    		I have found it most interesting that many denomination, my
    own included, will accept a satinist, a convicted murderer, and a white
    collor embezeller (sp) before it will accept a divorced person.  These
    three persons are real but then again so are the others with a divorce
    in their background.  Seems to me that there is more hatred of "sexual"
    sin than any other.  Interesting.
    
    
    Dave

Christ calls us to a life of repentance: confessing our sins, offering
restitution where possible, and promising to accept God's help to do better
in the future.

In your first three examples, the problems are in the past and presumably
repented of.

Divorce continues in the present and future, unless reconcilation occurs,
to be a rending asunder of that which God hath joined together.

/john

re Note 727.11 by COVERT::COVERT:

> Divorce continues in the present and future, unless reconcilation occurs,
> to be a rending asunder of that which God hath joined together.
  
        I don't know -- if you tear a piece of cloth apart, it's
        torn, not tearing.  It can be patched together, but is the
        failure to patch the same thing as the tearing?

        Bob

re .12

Your analogy is off the mark.  Tearing cloth is analogous to a third party
being instrumental in causing a divorce.

/john

    
> Divorce continues in the present and future, unless reconcilation occurs,
> to be a rending asunder of that which God hath joined together.

    To quote my father, "God gets blamed for a lot of things He had nothing
    to do with." He said this even before he married a divorced woman. :-)

    I don't believe that marrages that God puts together fail. I do,
    however, believe that sometimes people use their gift of free will to
    marry people that God would rather they not.
    
    			Alfred

re Note 727.13 by COVERT::COVERT:

> Your analogy is off the mark.  Tearing cloth is analogous to a third party
> being instrumental in causing a divorce.
  
        So if I have a really big piece of cloth (a tarp or tent)
        that tears apart of its own weight, then the tearing
        continues until it is mended?

        Or is gravity the third party?

        Bob

    
    	Let me give a specific example.  My brother was divorced before he
    became a Christian.  When he did accept the Lord he tried to reconcile
    but the woman had already married again.  I'm sorry but you cannot tell
    me that the objection against his being a minister in light of his
    situation is nothing more than prejudice...IMHO anyway.  And yes he did
    go to seminary and got his degree.
    
    
    Dave

 Notice in .7, I said for me and in my opinion.  I did not mean to 
 judge anyone else, or their relationship to God and His forgiveness.
 I said that *if* I were to become a pastor, and *if* my sin of adultery
 were to come out, I could talk all I want about the Lord's forgiveness
 of that sin.  Human beings are far less forgiving and the gossip and in-
 sinuation that can occur can be destructive to the local church.  In that
 light *I* choose not to seek the role of a pastor.


 I am in no position, and I apologize if it appeared so, to judge anyone
 else who may be in that role, or seeking that role.





 Jim

    I repented after my divorce.
    
    I'm pleased to announce I never divorced that woman again!
    
    Richard
    

    re .17:
    
    Jim,
    
    So which is the greater sin - divorce/adultery or not listening to
    God's current "call" for you to be pastor?
    
    Is it possible you might be trying to reach God "thru" the (maybe
    "your") law rather than thru God's grace, a grace in which God may have
    a need for you to shepherd God's flock?
    
    BTW, are you the same Jim Henderson from a future life in Bangor?  It's
    a strange and glorious world that God has set before us.  You see, if
    you ARE the same Jim Henderson, then my first wife is one of the people
    who almost purchased your old home in Bangor.  And if you ARE the same
    person then it's either your divorced wife of present one who attended
    Bangor Seminary and later, I believe, Andover Newton?  Could be a small
    world.
    
    	Peace!
    
    	Ron
    

re Note 727.17 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

        It is hard to know to what extent Paul's advice should be
        taken as an absolute or just good advice and guidance.

        "With God all things are possible."

        And, of course, the very apostle Paul who is giving this
        advice before his conversion persecuted God's Church --
        hardly a shining example of proper attitudes and behavior.

        Bob

RE:                      <<< Note 727.19 by DLO15::FRANCEY >>>
                    -< are we listening for God's wishes? >-

       
   . So which is the greater sin - divorce/adultery or not listening to
   . God's current "call" for you to be pastor?
    

     Good question.  At this point I do not believe I'm being called
     to pastor.  As for others, I would think that would be between
     them and God. Perhaps my convervatism is showing?




    .Is it possible you might be trying to reach God "thru" the (maybe
    ."your") law rather than thru God's grace, a grace in which God may have
    .a need for you to shepherd God's flock?
    
     God reached me through His grace, originally 15 years ago, and then
     after my divorce about 8 months ago.  I believe He has put me in a 
     church where I am learning some things that will help me with the 
     "flock" that He wants me to minister to, but not in the sense of 
     pastoring a church.




   . BTW, are you the same Jim Henderson from a future life in Bangor?  It's
   . a strange and glorious world that God has set before us.  You see, if
    

     Well, I don't know what my future is yet, but Bangor may be there..did
     we meet in the future? :-) :-)

     I don't think I'm the same Jim Henderson.





 Jim    

I, too, find it strange that any actions taken before a person
becomes a Christian serve to disqualify that person
from the ministry.  After an acceptance of Jesus Christ,
however, I would not accept someone into the ministry
who at one point actively worshipped Satan, for example,
even if repentance was forthcoming.

There are stricter standards for leaders for a reason.  The
sin that we encounter nowadays is no different than the sin
that was encountered 2,000 years ago.  Neither does God's
grace differ.  So why do we try to believe that the standard
for leadership has changed?

Collis

 Agreed..in my situation, the sin of which I spoke came during a period
 of backsliding.





Jim

re Note 727.23 by CSLALL::HENDERSON:

>  Agreed..in my situation, the sin of which I spoke came during a period
>  of backsliding.
  
        Is less forgiveness, less healing, less grace available to
        the Christian than to the non-Christian-becoming-Christian?

        Bob

The same forgiveness, healing and grace are available.

But, THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE!  The issue is the (appropriately)
"higher" requirements for leadership.  The requirements are
perfection at all levels, but those who sin in ways that
are particularly harmful (as a witness/model, in ways that
are particulary injurious to others, etc.) should NOT be
in leadership both according to the Bible and commonly
accepted practice in a lot of places.  Leadership is a
special responsibility and a special calling of God.
Leaders will be judged more harshly (and rightly so) since
they have accepted this special role.  The negative impact
of a leader is a LOT more than the negative impact of a
follower.

God's complete forgiveness, healing and grace are available
to all.  But there are consequences of sin that do NOT
disappear (at least on this earth).  We wish that there were
not, but there are.

Collis

In article <727.19-930923-140030@valuing_diffs.christian-perspective> you write:
|>Title: request for ordination scripture
|>Reply Title: are we listening for God's wishes?
|>    So which is the greater sin - divorce/adultery or not listening to
|>    God's current "call" for you to be pastor?
|>...    
|>    	Ron
|>    

There shouldn't be any conflict between God's call and God's word. If there
is then either it isn't God's word or it isn't God's call. Right? 8-)

It certainly seems to me as well, that someone can have a very fruitful
and fulfilling ministry in the body without the title of "pastor". Specific
guidelines were laid down in Paul's instructions to Timothy to help in
determining who was qualified to be an elder, and one of the qualifications
was (as Jim has indicated) that the person be well thought of by outsiders.

Nobody has a "right" to any particular role in the church.

At the same time, I think we can certainly make things pretty complicated
with the amount of divorce and remarriage we have in our society. It seems
to me that marriage is intended as a symbol, an example, of Christ's
relationship to the church. Regardless of whether or not you see marriage
as sacramental, it means that marriage isn't like any other relationship.

I hope that I haven't ranted too much. 8-)  I certainly don't want to
be harder or less sympathetic than scripture is. 



-- 
---
Paul		ferwerda@ootool.enet.dec.com
Gordon		ferwerda@databs.enet.dec.com
Loptson		databs::ferwerda
Ferwerda	Tel (603) 884 1317

re Note 727.25 by TLE::COLLIS::JACKSON:

> God's complete forgiveness, healing and grace are available
> to all.  But there are consequences of sin that do NOT
> disappear (at least on this earth).  We wish that there were
> not, but there are.
  
        But the issue I was questioning was whether a non-Christian's
        "consequences of sin" are better cleansed by becoming a
        Christian than a backsliding Christian's "consequences of
        sin" are cleansed by God's forgiveness.

        A previous reply suggested that it was OK if a leadership
        candidate had sinned badly before becoming a Christian, but
        that if a Christian sinned equally badly they could never be
        OK in that same way.

        Bob

    Here's another approach of "fitness" for ordained ministry to consider. 
    In our denomination (UCC) one goes thru several steps leading toward
    ordination.  One must become "incare" of an Association and be incare
    for a  minimum of one year.  To become incare, one approaches your own
    particular church and you formally (usually thru letter and thru a
    meeting)  ask thge governing body to consider you to be recommended by
    them to the Association's "Church & Ministry Committee" for incare
    status.
    
    YOu usually meet with your church's committee and are examined by them
    on your perceived "call" or of your "interest" to discover more about
    the path to ordained ministry.  You meet with them and a vote is cast
    and a letter of recommendation is sent to the C&M Committee.
    
    The C&MC meets to discuss the church's request and if they decide to
    pursue this further, a meeting is scheduled with the C&MC and the
    candidate.  The candidate may go to the scheduled meeting with or w/o a
    representative from their church (the pastor or lay person) and the
    candidate is examined for "fitness" to incare status.  A vote is made
    by the committee and, if  a positive3 vote is made, the candidate is
    granted that required status and an incare advisor is appointed.
    
    During the incare process, the candidate completers semiary, does a
    unit of CPE (Clinical Pastoral Education), does a year of Field
    Education.  During this process the incare advisor becomes a friend and
    builds a helping relationship with the candidate.
    
    Upon graduation, the candidate requests the C&MC to grant "approved for
    ordination subject to a call" standing.  To get this standing, the
    candidate must prepare a three-part ordination paper (about 20 to 25
    pages; our papers are fopund w/i this notes-file and have received
    many, many useful comments that helped me have my paper to be accepted
    w/o change before the committee.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    
    ps: I'm making this response multi-part
    

Continuing on from the previous note (I've been getting "disconnected" from
my vms node randomly; so this is now being done via edt!):

The C&MC meets with the candidate who is given rigorous screening for "fitness"
to ordained ministry as a decision by any Association is binding on ALL 
Association and with the complete denomination.

Subsequent to an affirmative examination, one is allowed to prepare a 15-25 
page "profile" which includes a statemnet on ministry, faith statement, 
history of the person and several (7) references.  The profile may be examined
at the candidate's request and then is sent to National for final preparation
for distribution to geographies requested by the candidate.

Once the profile is ready for distribution, it is sent to the geographies.  The
candidate(s) also receive an international listing of all church opportunities.
If the candidate sees something of interest, then s(he) notifies that geography
of the interest.  That Association sends to National (the ONLY distributor) of 
the profile(s) requesting that a copy be sent to the church of interst.

The churches receive many profiles (typically hundreds) and goes thru its
selection process.  Once the candidate(s) have recieved a "call" from a
church, the candidates request that an Ecclesiatical Council meeting be
scheduled for the purpose of final "screening" by ANY clergy/lay persons
within the denomiantion, especially w/i the candidate's own Association.

This called for meeting will include the formal presentation of the candidate's
ordination paper and a following examination.  Upon an affirmative vote, the
Ordination may be scheduled.

So, a "call" comes in three parts or phases, ie. comes from three distinct
bodies:  it comes from the candidates hearing the "call" from God (from
the candidate's attempt to discern God's desire for the candidate); it comes
from the "calling" church; it comes from the governing body of the candidate's
Association.

Once standing to ordained ministry has occurred (thru the laying on of hands
during the ordinatiion worship service), the candidate has then been approved 
to preach/teach the Word of God and to administer the Sacraments of Baptism
and Holy Communion.  Should difficulties occur in the future (Jim, this time I 
actually MEAN future :-) ), a multi-layered review process exists within the
denomination to administer different levels of discipline and examination,
including removal of "standing" as its harshgest move.

I hope this note edifies to some extent my denomination's procedures for 
searching out and approving/denying standing to ordained ministry.

So, many facets of the denomination seek to find God's wishes for fulfillment
of ordained ministry - and this goes, therefor, beyond that facet of the 
person's own perceived "call".  The person's character, strengths, weaknesses
are all taken into acount for a decision which stands for the complete
denomination.  

We pray for God's intentions to be made known to all - and by all.

	Shalom,

	Ron

Bob,

I maintain that there *is* a difference between someone who has
been filled with the Holy Spirit and is no longer a slave to sin
than someone who is unregenerate and a slave to sin.  Both may
sin and both are fully responsible for their actions.  However,
one has been given a supernatural ability to resist sin as well
as privately (and hopefully publically) announcing their
intention to resist sin and follow God.  One who falls
significantly short after conversion (with all the advantages
that this presents) is in a far different situation than one
who falls short before he/she knows God.

Does this help?

Collis

    Interestinghow this note has gone from the "joy" of an ordination and
    the search for supporting that joy to "sin".  
    
    Any (other) Matthew Fox types that would like to join here in the
    search for celebration and in the search for scripture?
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    I rejoice in the celebration of the ordination of both you and Dot.
    In my heart, I sense that you two were called out for the ministry
    of Word and sacrament.  You have my prayers and encouragement.  Hosanna
    in the highest!!
    
    Shalom,
    Richard