[Search for users] [Overall Top Noters] [List of all Conferences] [Download this site]

Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

704.0. "sermon help requested 6/13/93" by MR4DEC::RFRANCEY (dtn 297-5264 mro4-3/g15) Wed Jun 09 1993 22:59

    Scripture for June 13,1993:
    
    Gen 25:19-34
    Ps 46
    Rom 5:6-11
    Mt 9:35-10:8
    
    Suggested sermon theme: "The God of Jacob is our Refuge"
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    
    My actual (at this time) sermon title: "Letting go, Letting God"
    
    I wish to focus on the Genesis and Romans text.  I wish to play with
    the notion of patience, its qualities, its worth.  Isaac married
    Rebecca when he was 40; he asked God to bless Rebecca with child; God
    granted the wish.  The next we know is that Esau and Jacob were born
    when Isaac was sixty.
    
    We don't know when Isaac asked God for the favor nor do we know when it
    was granted and I want to explore what it might be like for a person to
    live a life believing that the person's prayers were answered - yet
    without proof, ie. no immediate baby.
    
    What does that mean for us today?
    
    Any ideas you have along this line will be appreciated.  I especially
    wish to deliver my sermon from one 3x5 card rather than thru prepared
    and used text.  So, examples which give me a picture or pictures or
    stories may be useful for me as I try to recall my points.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
704.1CSC32::J_CHRISTIEWe will rise!Thu Jun 10 1993 15:1918
>   Isaac married
>   Rebecca when he was 40; he asked God to bless Rebecca with child; God
>   granted the wish.  The next we know is that Esau and Jacob were born
>   when Isaac was sixty.
    
This reminds me of the story of John, who prayed and prayed for years
for God to let him win the lottery.  Finally, John heard the voice of
God, "John!  What do you expect of me?  You've got to at least buy a ticket!"

In the story of Isaac and Rebecca, we assume they were having sexual
intercourse, but who knows?  I can just hear God saying, "Isaac, my servant!
I'm not scheduled to do a miraculous conception for quite some time yet.
You've got to do your part in this!"

:-)

Richard

704.2Initial thoughtsCSC32::J_CHRISTIEWe will rise!Thu Jun 10 1993 16:3620
It seems we've all become attuned to instant gratification.

Faster, faster, faster.  We want it now, now, now!

We stand in front of the microwave oven urging it to hurry up, because
"we haven't got all minute!"

We zip through MacDonalds, often not even stopping to enjoy our burger and
fries, but eating on the move.  The first time my kids were taken to a
resturant where they actually cook the meal after you place your order,
they couldn't imagine what was taking so long!

Possibly all of us have seen the light-hearted prayer:  Lord, give me
patience.  And give to me right now!

One of my favorite slogans runs a little contrary to this:  "If it wasn't
for the last minute, some things would *never* get done!"

Richard

704.3Examples of patience.VNABRW::BUTTONDo not reset mind, reality is fuzzy !Fri Jun 11 1993 08:5910
    And 40 years to cover the 200-300 miles from Egypt to the promised
    land must have tried the patience of not a few of the Israelites.
    Imagine pitching a tent anly to decamp next day and pitch it again
    20-odd yards further along: 15000 times!!!
    
    And, if a day is a 1000 years to the Lord (which I've heard) He must
    be a pretty patient person too!
    
    Greetings, Derek.
                      
704.4the sermonMR4DEC::RFRANCEYdtn 297-5264 mro4-3/g15Sat Jun 12 1993 18:03287
"You want it WHEN???"
Gen 25:19-34; Ps 46; Rom 5:6-11
Ron Francey
June 13, 1993

Suggested sermon theme: "The God of Jacob is our 
Refuge"

. Sermon -> exasperation at home
	when suddenly one is -> turmoil

	. talk of my being a dinasour in today's 
	  world and my tending to each and every 
	  one of Dot's requests as she mends from
	  a broken leg

	. talk of how others in our midst get 
	  suddenly thrown into the fire of our 
	  lives

. Or classical study of lineage
	and of leaders less than perfect 
	
	. talk to the imperfectness of the people of
	  God, called by God to be leaders, of 
	  ourselves

. Today's sermon is about patience - 
	God's with us and ours with God
    

God is the creator of all that is, all that ever was 
and all that there will ever be.  People are created 
by God and God was well pleased with what God saw.  
People are good and blessed by God.  The problem is 
often that people's ways or methods of achieving 
their end goals gets in the way of their goodness 
and the result is conflict, infringement on others' 
rights and wishes.  And so, what started out as 
goodness becomes something else, something which 
causes friend to strike out against friend, brother 
against brother, husband against wife, the people 
against the state, nation against nation, people 
everywhere against nature.

Today's Genesis story which continues the lineage of 
Abraham and Sarah is rich in several example stories 
of twists and turns within real family struggles 
which can relate to us today; that is, if you 
believe families struggle at all in today's world!

I am going to take some liberty or minister's 
license in the meaning I get from part of the story.  
Dot's eyes just rolled around in her head and she 
sat there shaking her head in disbelief when I 
mentioned a nuance I noticed upon a close reading of 
the scripture.  Recall that Isaac married Rebecca 
when he was forty years old and prayed to the Lord 
because his wife was barren.  He prayed for her and 
God granted his wish and Rebecca conceived.  The 
scripture continues with a description of a 
difficult labor and of Rebecca's complaint against 
the struggle within and her wondering why she should 
even live if this was what things were going to be 
like.  The story continues to tell of the birth of 
Esau and of Jacob tugging away at Esau's heel.  
Finally, scripture mentions that Isaac was sixty 
when the children were born!

No where does scripture reveal WHEN Isaac prayed to 
the Lord nor WHEN God answered Isaac's prayer.  
Could it be that Isaac prayed to the Lord 
IMMEDIATELY after he married Rebecca?  Could it be 
that the Lord answered IMMEDIATELY after Isaac 
prayed?

Maybe Dot is right that I'm looking at scripture 
through a STRANGE lense - but then again - how old 
does scripture say Methuselah lived to be? or how 
old was it that Abraham was when Isaac was born 
(99)? and how old was Moses when he died?

Let's live in my fantasy world for a few moments and 
try to understand the kind of faith Isaac and 
Rebecca would had to have had if God DID grant them 
the wish immediately after being asked through 
Isaac's prayer.  It could have been that Rebecca had 
a normal term baby according to today's well-known 
nine month limit, in which case she conceived when 
Isaac was fifty-nine or it could be that Rebecca had 
an outstandingly long twenty-year term baby.  

In either case it seems to me that a long time 
passed between the time the Lord agreed to Isaac's 
request to the time the babies were born.  No where 
in scripture is there any mention of doubt or 
disbelief in God's promise to Isaac.

This reminds me of the story of John, who prayed and 
prayed for years for God to let him win the lottery.  
Finally, John heard the voice of God, "John!  What 
do you expect of me?  You've got to at least buy a 
ticket!"

In the story of Isaac and Rebecca, we assume they 
were having sexual intercourse, but who knows?  I 
can just hear God saying, "Isaac, my servant!  I'm 
not scheduled to do a miraculous conception for 
quite some time yet.  You've got to do your part in 
this!"

How have your prayers been answered?  Have you asked 
for things that were TO BE DONE IMMEDIATELY?  On the 
spot???  What might your prayers be like that might 
fashion your life to be like that of Isaac and 
Rebecca?  How is it that you KNOW when or how your 
prayers are answered?  Do you hear a voice giving 
you the answer?  Or do you see things happening 
around you, to you, to others such that you realize 
your prayers have been answered?

Imagine how it must have been in days of old, when 
Moses led his people out of bondage into the new 
land of milk and honey, that land promised by God 
and prayed for by the Israelites.

With its taking 40 years to cover the 200-300 miles 
from Egypt to the promised land, the time must 
surely have tried the patience of not a few of the 
Israelites.  Imagine pitching a tent only to decamp 
next day and pitch it again 20-odd yards further 
along: 15000 times!!!  And imagine God's patience as 
the moaning and mumbling of the people continued 
during this time.
     
It seems we've all become attuned to instant 
gratification.  Faster, faster, faster.  We want it 
now, now, now!

We stand in front of the microwave oven urging it to 
hurry up, because "we haven't got all day!"

We zip through MacDonalds, often not even stopping 
to enjoy our burger and fries, but eating on the 
move.  I remember the first time my kids were taken 
to a restaurant where they actually cooked the meal 
after I placed the order, and the kids not being 
able to imagine what took so long!

Possibly all of us have seen the light-hearted 
prayer:  Lord, give me patience.  And give to me 
right now!

How did Isaac KNOW his prayers were answered?  How 
could Isaac have lived twenty more years without 
complaining that God either had deceived him or had 
not REALLY answered him?

We often pray for our family's well-being, for our 
children to become all they can become or all that 
God meant for them to become - and then we wait and 
we wait and we wait.  As we walk the trail of life 
and take all the twists and turns that confront us 
and as we stumble over all those disturbing roots 
that seem to spring up from nowhere - do we have the 
faith that Isaac had all those years ago - to know 
deep down in our heart that our prayers have been 
answered?

It really doesn't matter how off base I've used the 
twenty year disparity between the time Isaac and 
Rebecca married to the time their children were 
born.  What does matter is that the living out of 
our lives is important, is extremely important to 
God and to us.  Isaac was in "right relationship" 
with God.  Isaac, who several years before as a 
young boy had been held at knife point by his father 
Abraham, was in right relationship with God.

Many of us suffer and suffer miserably through 
stages of our lives, sometimes we suffer through 
long stages of our lives.  Many of us appear to 
others, even others of this church, to be families 
that have it all together - when in fact the 
tapestry of our lives is becoming well shredded from 
several corners.  Life is difficult.

As the economy continues to bend under the weight of 
difficult times, many of us who have been gainfully 
employed find ourselves out of work and with a more 
difficult time than in earlier days to find 
employment.  Today it is often necessary for both 
spouses and in some cases even the children to work 
to make ends meet.  How are we to live a life with 
God as we wonder if our prayers will or have been 
answered?

The Genesis story is also a story about birthrights 
and the claiming or giving up of ones rights.  Jacob 
tugged at the heels of Esau in order to try to be 
born first and to claim first-born rights.  It 
wasn't enough for Jacob to lose that battle as he 
later tricked Esau into giving up his rights.

Do we know any families who have such or similar 
strife over rights?  Do we value one child more than 
another?  Do we have favorites?  Do we, as fathers, 
like the athletic or brightest child over the 
introverted and quiet and caring child?  Are we 
embarrassed by a child considered to be "slow" or 
are we angry with THAT KID that always gets into 
trouble?

Do we speak more highly of our first born child?  Do 
we ask others of our children to BECOME LIKE our 
favorite?

When we pray to God asking that our family members 
be blessed with being able to become all that God 
means for them to be, do we take the time and the 
often high degree of energy that's necessary to HEAR 
what God wishes for our children - over and 
sometimes against what WE wish for our children?

Isaac prayed and God responded - and Isaac lived his 
life knowing and feeling God's promises.  How are we 
to live similarly?

Let us rehear the words of the Psalmist, from Psalm 
46:

[READ PSALM 46]

"... THOUGH THE EARTH SHOULD CHANGE, THOUGH THE 
MOUNTAINS SHAKE IN THE HEART OF THE SEA; THOUGH ITS 
WATERS ROAR AND FOAM, THOUGH THE MOUNTAINS TREMBLE 
..."

I am moved by such rich imagery; there is something 
powerful and wonderful when one contemplates 
creation and the Creator.  Sometimes I am brought to 
tears when, on a bright moonlit night as I lay on 
the grass looking up to the sky and pondering my 
fate, my life, my difficulties, I am suddenly 
overcome by the intricacies of the network of stars, 
their placement, their sparkling, their beauty.  And 
it is in moments like these that sometimes I feel 
the kiss of God for the many and for me.

The Psalmist closes Psalm 46:

"...THE LORD OF HOSTS IS WITH US, THE GOD OF JACOB 
IS OUR REFUGE..."

The Lord of Hosts IS with us and the God of Abraham 
and Sarah, of Isaac and Rebecca, of Jacob and 
Rachel, the God of your parents, of your children, 
the God of ours IS our refuge, our rock, and our 
salvation.



As we live our lives, and as we offer our prayers to 
God, it just may be that we need to put our trust in 
God.  Our timeline and God's timeline may at times 
be disjoint; and, if we come to God in prayer time 
after time after time, day after day, throughout our 
lives, there WILL be times when we are in full 
communion with our loving God and we WILL know and 
feel God's divine love for us.

Let us also remember today's scripture from Romans 
5:6-11.  Jesus, the purest love of God, died for us 
EVEN AS WE WERE, imperfect people in an imperfect 
world - but perfectly loved by God.

As we raise our prayers to God, let's do so with 
patience for God's response, with a sincere search 
for and understanding of God's messages to us, and 
with a love and devotion for the establishment of a 
kingdom on earth as it is in heaven.

Praise be to God.  Amen and amen.




704.5CSC32::J_CHRISTIEWe will rise!Mon Jun 14 1993 15:425
    Good stuff there, Ron!  Did you get some knowing chuckles?  Could
    your hearers relate?
    
    Richard
    
704.6sermon results and thanks!MR4DEC::RFRANCEYdtn 297-5264 mro4-3/g15Mon Jun 14 1993 16:3350
    Almost ALL the people came to me after church and said it was a great
    service, that the sermon had a good message(s), that it was really nice
    to be able to laugh in church.  It was your comments, dear repliers
    that made the sermon come to life.  For that I give all of you thanks!
    
    This was the first time I've preached that everybody in church was very
    attentive throughout the whole sermon.  Not one head dropped.
    
    What also helped me a real lot is that I've gotten to know most of the
    people in the church and this sermon was for them - whereever they are
    in the thick of life.
    
    Actually, I love them a real lot and I'm going to miss them.  They
    have been GREAT to Dot and have a special relationship to her as she 
    does with them.
    
    I hadn't mentined this before but Dot slid into second base while
    playing kickball about one month ago.  She was called out, her team
    lost, and she broke her leg!  She is on the mend and the church has
    welcomed a "shared ministry" for the past month.  Dot now has two
    Sundays remaining as Interim Minister after which we will be driving
    to Plano, TX for me to be at Regional headquarters.
    
    BTW, you may recall that we will be living within .8 miles from a UCC
    church that has the only shared ministry in all of Texas for our
    denomination.  Well, I found out last week that the ministers and the
    church terminated their relationship as of two Sundays ago.  The church 
    is without a pastor(s).
    
    The problem is that the church owes $1.3M to the National UCC Board for
    Homeland Ministries and the denomination wants the church to return the
    properties to national so that the "buildings" may be sold and so the
    denomination may cut its loss.  
    
    There are only about 15 to 25 families that have been active in the
    church and they are not able to support such a debt structure.
    
    We are drooling over possibilities to work toward revitalizing the
    church either in its current place or in a new and smaller church 
    start.
    
    Perhaps you may wish to shed some ideas about possibilities for the
    church and us to consider.
    
    	Thanks again for your suggestions for the sermon!
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    
704.7CSC32::J_CHRISTIEWe will rise!Wed Jun 16 1993 16:1311
I've been thinking, Ron.  That's a *lot* of money.  It's probably been
accumulating for quite a while, right?

Is it possible to have the denomination forgive the debt?  Cut in half?
Cut by 2/3rds perhaps?

Surely the UCC would rather have a portion of the debt fulfilled than
to recover a fraction of its losses in other, more troublesome ways.

Richard

704.8$1.3M is big bucks for small churchMR4DEC::RFRANCEYdtn 297-5264 mro4-3/g15Wed Jun 16 1993 17:4124
    Well, Dot and I really wantto find out a lot more about the situation. 
    It seems that plans, as in restructuring the debt, have been made in
    the past and nothing has happened to reduce the principal from the
    execution of these plans.  So, it seems the UCC is reluctant to try yet
    another plan.
    
    However, if I stay with Digital, we won't need much income from the
    church and we may be able to do some good along the lines of church
    growth.  A few years of that and then it may be move on time for us to
    a church that could support both of us.
    
    There also is talk about dissolving the current UCC church and
    beginning another one on a much smaller scale than that done for the
    current startup (13 years ago).  
    
    It's hard for us to know much more until we move to Texas on July
    9/10th.  We sure are interested in flushing the info out and hope that
    our enthusiasm doesn't scare people away.
    
    BTW, my recent sermons sure haven't generated much discussion here.  I
    wonder why.  I don't mean "attaboys" but critiques or take-offs to some
    other discussion or "if you say that then what about ...".  BTW, this
    is not a complaint, just wondering.
    
704.9CSC32::J_CHRISTIEWe will rise!Wed Jun 16 1993 17:528
    Without knowing the details, I'd say that a fresh start would probably
    be best.
    
    A UM pastor I once had insisted that apportionments were paid first,
    even before his own salary.
    
    Richard