Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

     
    Most of the time it seems that I don't gain the whole world and I don't
    lose my whole soul, but every now and then it feels like _some_ of it
    slips away.
     
    I used to write music that pleased me and a small following back in
    Ohio.  Then I thought maybe I could "make a living" at it and started
    writing what I thought would sell.  I always believed that I could
    return to the heartfelt stuff later -- after I made enough money to do
    music full time.
     
    Funny thing, after several years (in a foreign land wallowing in pop
    pig poop) I found that I had lost the good stuff.  Wasn't there any
    more.  I literally lost a little piece of my soul.
     
    I'd like to return to a feast and fatted calf, but can't seem to find
    my way back.  I try to compose music, but it's just not in my soul
    anymore.

    I sure have learned my lesson -- but what a price.

    Ruth

     
    >Funny thing, after several years (in a foreign land wallowing in pop
    >pig poop) I found that I had lost the good stuff.  Wasn't there any
    >more.  I literally lost a little piece of my soul.
     
    >I'd like to return to a feast and fatted calf, but can't seem to find
    >my way back.  I try to compose music, but it's just not in my soul
    >anymore.

    >I sure have learned my lesson -- but what a price.

    >Ruth


Don't be so hard on yourself, Ruth.  The music you think you've lost may 
simply be in hiding or may manifest itself in a different form.  
Composing "pop pig poop" (I love that phrase :^) ) may not have stolen 
your gift.

Let me give you an example:

I was a pretty fair country horn player in college.  I played some 
studio work and even subbed with the Boston Pops for a couple of 
summers.  But then I got married, joined Dec and stopped playing 
completely fo 10 years.  I almost even sold my horn, which is a 
priceless instrument.  Last year God slapped me around and told me to 
pick up my horn again, that I had no right to let my gift lie fallow.  I 
still play ocassionally (even in public now and again) but will never 
regain the level I once had.  I don't think that's what the Lord has 
meant for me.  Instead of performing in public (and swelling up my huge 
ego), I'm now arranging lots of pieces for small chamber ensembles.  I 
find much greater joy in teaching young people to play in a chamber 
environment than I ever did playing myself.

Could be God has other plans for you , Ruth.  Hang in there.


Sandy

    Both citations in .0 have to do with man's relationship to God.
    
    In the first, Jesus says that no matter what we have or do not have in
    this earthly life (whatever profit in this life), if we do not have
    a right relationship with God, then it is a complete loss. We gain the
    world but lose our eternal soul.
    
    The Parable of the Prodigal Son is a story of repentance and
    the forgiveness that is available to us when we repent. The father 
    allowed his son to leave and have the life he chose; in the same way,
    God allows us to choose our own life even if it is to wallow with
    swine. However, when we repent and decide to 'come home' God awaits
    with open arms, forgiveness, and re-establishment of the dignity that
    we lost.
    
    God does call us to be productive on this earth, but this is secondary
    to a right relationship with Him. Those who put earthly goals ahead of
    this are gaining the world but losing the soul. Scripture is concerned
    with that which is required for our salvation and only in this aspect
    does it care or give us direction about out earthly activities. 
    
    For instance, it will guide us to honesty, but it will not say in what
    field we should practice that honesty. 
    
    I believe it was St. Agustine that said, "Love God and then do what
    you want." The basis of that is if we have a true and deep love of God
    then we will follow all of his Commandments and Word to us and 'what we
    want' will naturally be what gives glory to God.
    
    Some of the greatest Saints had lowly and frustrating occupations which
    in the world's eyes did not ammount to much, yet they knew how to love
    God and others in such a way that gave beautiful witness to Christ.
    
    Mary
    

    RE: several
    
    Perhaps as the great artist or musician you would have become conceited
    and full of human pride. This would have been a case of gaining the
    world but losing the soul.
    
    The world is always looking for achievements and successes and we all
    know how our status is all too coldly measured against such yardsticks.
    
    God measures against a different yardstick of love and openness to Him;
    he measures the true heart that is beneath the 'social heart' that we
    often put on for others. It is this heart that he promises to change
    from a 'stoney' heart into the heart of His Son, Jesus Christ. 
    
    In another note someone mentioned the rather cruel game Satan and God
    seemed to play concerning Job. Job was taken from his 'perfect' life
    and cast into misery. It seems unfair, but Job (and all of us) need the
    lesson. Job related his level of success with his standing in God's
    eyes and so did his friends. When that was all taken away, this threw
    them all into meditation about God and his plans. After working through
    a lot of 'theories' Job understood that God and his plans were
    beyond the understanding of man. 
    
    Job understood that earthly achievements did not relate to his standing
    with God and that God was not bound to reward Job with earthly success
    because of his faithfulness to God. Job also understood that God was
    still God and deserving of all faithfulness. 
    
    In our materialistic world today it is good to have the story of Job to
    remind us of these truths. In each circumstance of our life we need to
    be committed to faithfulness and trust in God. God does not always 
    answer us when we ask "Why?", and that is not always the best question
    to ask.
    
    Personally, I have learned from each 'defeat' and time that I have had
    to let go of a dream. When I learned to look at God's yardstick rather
    than the world's then I found the help (from God) and the peace to
    let these things pass and to get on with what God has put before me
    today.
    
    Mary
    

I was an artist.

I painted.  I sculpted.  Like Simon on SNL, I loved to do "dra-wrings".

I had a minor flare for it, but there was no "fire in my belly" for it.
Unlike Cezanne, I wasn't willing to give up my security for it.  Unlike
Van Gogh, art was not my passion.  Unlike Daumier, art was not my mistress.

I haven't picked up a brush in years.  Actually, others lament this situation
more than I do.

With time, my physical condition has deteriorated to the degree that I know
I would not be pleased with the results of my own artistic efforts at present.
I have released it.  I have let it go.

I have "sold out" in other ways.  I'll get to this in detail later.

Richard

	I have sold out.

	I bought into the pompous notion that human beings can actually
own segments of God's earth.

	I bought into a whole economic system of employment, credit cards,
garbage disposal, built-in dishwasher, power lawnmower, privately-owned
transportation, insurance, a VCR, a microwave oven, and lots of presents
under the Christmas tree each year.

	I pray for peace, and yet through my taxes I subsidize the United
States' ability to conduct war-making on a scale unprecedented in history.

Richard

Re: .6

Richard,

Are you saying that you don't believe in any of these things having merit? (Even
the dishwasher? :^)

How do having these things undermine your beliefs. According to your note, in 
order to have NOT sold out, you would need to be an unemployed pauper on public 
land.

No?

Steve

Note 693.7

> According to your note, in 
> order to have NOT sold out, you would need to be an unemployed pauper on
> public land.

My wife's insecurity frequently speaks of fear of living as part of the
homeless of our community under the Bijou Street bridge. :-)

Actually, I think if I was accustomed to a lower standard of living, I
would not be so much a slave to contemporary comforts and conveniences.
The Amish never notice a power outage. [a proverb I just made up ;-)]

I believe it is easier to be employed in God's service when financial
security is not an issue.

Richard

    I think Christians sell out everyday - it's called compromise.
    When I hear the consultant on my team swear using my Lord's name,
    I cring.  I feel like I should say something like "Hey, my God's
    last name ain't dammit...why don't you ever say Buddha dammit?!?"
    But I don't...
    
    Richard, I liked your line about the Amish.  ;^)  I remember when I
    was a kid and our car would get stuck behind one of their buggies
    one our vacation.  I was a pretty impatient kid.  But now, a simpler
    lifestyle is appealing.  Do you know that many people in the medical
    community believe that the majority of people in this country are
    living sleep deficient lives.  People didn't stay up until all hours
    of the night because they just didn't have lights, TVs, VCRS, etc...
    and candles weren't cheap.  I have thought of getting back to a
    simpler life.  Reading more books instead of watching TV, making up
    stories instead of renting movies, having dinner with friends instead
    of just grabbing a bite, but I'm keeping my stereo!  I like music too
    much and I need some kind of news.  I've started having lights out
    nights.  I try not to use any electricity.  It's hard.  Just trying
    to get an idea of how "simpler" things used to be.  Sometimes I get
    really bored during those evenings...sometimes I don't.  Anyway, I
    think downscaling our lifestyles is important.  Getting out of debt
    and not being caught in all the other trappings of this world are
    worthy goals for everybody.
    
    Jill

    
    
    	Most Christians I know do "rollercoaster" in their faith throughout
    their lives.  Is this selling out?  No, I don't think so, I believe
    that its part of the human condition.  Now if you believe that
    considering organized religion as not for you is "selling out" then I
    guess I am guilty.  To me, building great huge buildings while ignoring
    the homeless living in the park next door is selling out.  Getting on
    TV or radio and "begging" for more money to continue their ministry is 
    selling out.  Yes, I understand that within any organization there will
    be that 2% that shouldn't be there but what I have seen is more like
    80%.  To organize a Church as if it were a seperate and distinct
    government is selling out.  My faith is in God...not some organization
    calling itself a Church.  
    
    	"Compromise":  Here is a word that, while good in intent, is awful
    and dangerous in practice.
    
    
    Dave

Re: All (or at least a bunch)

Why is living in society selling out?

Maybe we need to start with a definition of selling out. Mine would be something
along the line of violating my principles for monetary gain or comfort.

Given this (unless your definition is substantially different) what principles
are you violating by working hard, contributing to the economy, enjoying some of
what you worked for, etc?

If everyone were bent upon trying to right all of the wrongs in the world, there
would be nothing to right them with, ie. if everyone were involved trying to
help the homeless nobody would be building homes for them to occupy. (And a 
percentage of homeless choose to live the way they do). Now I am not advocating
that it should be every man for themselves, but it seems like you are feeling
guilty for being a contributing member of society, and I don't understand it.
Enjoy yourselves, burn some electricity, turn it off if that makes you happy, 
but don't feel guilty about it!

Steve

Steve,

	My understanding of selling out is not very different from yours.
However, I would include compromise as selling out.  At least, for me I
would.

	Don't get me wrong.  I'm not against hard work.  And I certainly
wouldn't want to force someone voluntarily homeless into some prescribed
living quarters.

	Steve, are you familiar with how Kingdom Halls are built? (Feel
free to jump in here Phil, Steve or Robin)

	Are you familiar with Habitat for Humanity?

Richard

Richard,

Regarding Kingdom Halls and habitats, I am not familiar with either, but welcome
the opportunity to learn.

I didn't mean to imply you were against work, or forcing the voluntarily homeless
into homes :^)

I guess basically my philosophy is: take care of you and yours, help where you
can, and be happy. Don't feel you have to solve all the worlds problems by
yourself, if you help to solve even one other problem, and do not 'create' 
problems, you have made the world a better place.

By simply being a contributing member of society you 'free up' those who
want to devote all of their time to helping others.

Steve

    RE:  .13
>I guess basically my philosophy is: take care of you and yours, help where you
>can, and be happy. Don't feel you have to solve all the worlds problems by
>yourself, if you help to solve even one other problem, and do not 'create' 
>problems, you have made the world a better place.

>By simply being a contributing member of society you 'free up' those who
>want to devote all of their time to helping others.

    Well put, Steve.

    I agree with Laura (.14).  You may not be as theologically impaired as
    your p_n seems to indicate you are!
    
    I cannot determine for you if you've sold out.  That's up to you to
    decide.  I can only decide whether or not I believe *I* have sold out.
    
    Richard

    
    RE: .10
    
    Hi Dave,
    
    >  Most Christians I know do "rollercoaster" in their faith throughout
    >  their lives.  Is this selling out?  No, I don't think so, I believe
    >  that its part of the human condition.
    
       To me that's more a part of trying to live the Christian life
       in the flesh rather than in the Spirit.
    
    >  Now if you believe that considering organized religion as not
    >  for you is "selling out" then I guess I am guilty.
    
       I agree that it could be.  I don't agree that it has to be.
       If people are involved in church, they can have a say in what
       funds should go for.  It's a Christian's obligation to be
       involved in church.  Each ministry is different.  Even two
       ministries doing the same thing are going to be different
       because of the gifts of those involved.  If people aren't
       involved, they are denying Christ's church the gifts He
       gave them for service to the body.
    
    Jill

re Note 693.8 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

> The Amish never notice a power outage. [a proverb I just made up ;-)]
  
        I like that!

        However, I think that if I were to suddenly adopt an Amish or
        other subsistence lifestyle, then I might actually have less
        "free time" to serve the Lord.

        Bob

    Maybe selling out isn't bad.  Maybe selling out is a natural rite
    of passage.  Maybe by selling out, we learn where our personal
    boundaries lie.  Maybe it teaches us that we are human.

    I think I would be better friends with the brother who sold out than
    the one who stayed home.  The one who sold out would have more
    compassion.  He'd be less self-righteous.  He'd be more interesting.

    Ruth

I'd hoped one of our JW friends here would respond here.

It is my understanding that Kingdom Halls (as every house of worship for
the Jehovah's Witnesses is called) are built by and large with donated
materials and volunteer labor.  It's not unusual for a whole construction
crew to converge on a site from various points of origin, each paying their
own way, erecting a hall in a weekend, and then returning home.

Habitat for Humanity, as I understand it, is the non-profit organization
that builds low-income housing largely through donated materials and labor.
Former President Jimmy Carter is deeply involved with Habitat.

Peace,
Richard

re .20

Thanks Richard, to my knowledge what you have said is quite correct. I would 
just like to add that it is well organised and that the core team of the 
construction crew, skilled workers, are known and called upon for any future 
"quick bulds". 

I have been told that a "quick build" is quite an experience which 
unfortunateley I have not had the opportunity to participate in. Though I 
enjoyed helping out in demolishing a building prior to a kingdom hall being 
built the following weekend, in a place called Galashiels, Scotland.


My congregation has been looking for a site for a kingdom hall for 10 years
now. But the local council continue to turn our applications down when plots 
of land become available. For many years we have held our meetings in schools
and for the last two years we have shared the local kingdom hall with 3
other congregations.

I feel that the principle for volunteering freely of ones time and energy is
the one found in Matthew 10:8b NWT "You received free, give free". Jehovah's
Witnesses value highly their kingdoms halls and appreciate the need that
other brothers and sisters have for having a place for worship and furthering 
kingdom interests.

Phil.

.19 Ruth,

>    Maybe selling out isn't bad.  Maybe selling out is a natural rite
>    of passage.  Maybe by selling out, we learn where our personal
>    boundaries lie.  Maybe it teaches us that we are human.

It certainly can be a disillusioning experience.

>    I think I would be better friends with the brother who sold out than
>    the one who stayed home.  The one who sold out would have more
>    compassion.  He'd be less self-righteous.  He'd be more interesting.

I, too, think I would have more in common with the one who hit bottom
a time or two than with the one who was put out by the attention his
brother was getting.

But like the sisters Martha and Mary, I see a little of myself in each
brother.  I even see a little of myself in the father.

Richard