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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

628.0. "They ought to just throw out the Bible" by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE (Rise Again!) Mon Mar 29 1993 19:37

My wife this weekend remarked after reading several newspaper articles
describing the suffering resulting from religious extremism both locally
and elsewhere, "They ought to just throw out the Bible!"

Admittedly, it was said in a moment of exasperation.  What are others'
thoughts about "just throwing out the Bible"?

Richard

T.RTitleUserPersonal
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628.1no respect for GodJUPITR::MNELSONMon Mar 29 1993 20:1513
    "They just outghta live the Gospels!"
    
    Chesterton made the following comment (paraphrased) when someone told
    him that Christianity didn't work, "It's not that Christianity doesn't
    work, heck, it hasn't even been TRIED!"
    
    Far more suffering has entered the world through extremists of the
    non-religious variety than has ever come through misguided Christian
    extremists. To name names : Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pot Pol (?), and
    countless extreme governments that have no respect for God.
    
    Mary
    
628.2another strike against itLGP30::FLEISCHERwithout vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO2-2/T63)Mon Mar 29 1993 20:2321
re Note 628.1 by JUPITR::MNELSON:

>     Chesterton made the following comment (paraphrased) when someone told
>     him that Christianity didn't work, "It's not that Christianity doesn't
>     work, heck, it hasn't even been TRIED!"
  
        Yes, but (to play the devil's advocate a bit) isn't that just
        one more reason to throw out the Bible:  it is ineffective? 
        After all, it is the most widely distributed (and read) book,
        it has been studied to great depths for thousands of years,
        it has been quoted and preached to millions of people.

        If, after all that, it still is true that "it hasn't even
        been TRIED!" then it is clear that the Bible is hopelessly
        ineffective, and there is no sane reason to believe that it
        will be "tried" in the future.

        Civilization should move on to the next solution to all of
        the world's problems!  :-}

        Bob
628.3TLE::COLLIS::JACKSONRoll away with a half sashayMon Mar 29 1993 20:5720
We know what is good and what is evil (generally).  We
just refuse to do the good - and the evil that we do
we justify.  How else to justify what we do than by
the standard (in this case, the Bible)?

It doesn't mean a thing if I justify my actions by
Collis' book of rules.  Who cares?  It is only if my
actions are justified by an accepted authority that I
can truly feel (and believe) I'm justified.

So, the issue is not the Bible, per se.  The issue is
having *any* authoritative document.  The Bible (as the
authoritative document) is just the scapegoat.

So the real proposal is to throw out authoritative
documents (or rules).  Upon reflection, I doubt that
this is what Sharon truly desires.  Of course, since I
don't know her, perhaps I'm wrong.

Collis
628.4My abbreviate thoughts...CSC32::KINSELLAit's just a wheen o' blethersMon Mar 29 1993 22:407
    
    >Admittedly, it was said in a moment of exasperation.  What are
    >others' thoughts about "just throwing out the Bible"?
    
    Misplaced blame.
    
    Jill
628.5CVG::THOMPSONRadical CentralistTue Mar 30 1993 11:159
    I agree with Jill. It's misplaced blame. If the Bible did not exist
    those people who are dangerous would just find some other book to use.
    The Koran for example. And there are other books of great religions
    that are also abused. Failing that they'll write their own books.
    And in fact that happens pretty often. The little red book in Mao's
    China, Hitler's Mein Kampf, and on and on. It's foolish to blame the 
    tool for people's misuse of it.

    		Alfred
628.6My view.STUDIO::GUTIERREZCitizen of the CosmosTue Mar 30 1993 14:5417
    
    	My view is that rather than "throwing out the Bible", we should
    	investigate and examine other sources of information in order
    	to find what has happened to the original scriptures, how they
    	have been changed through mis-translation and mis-interpretation
	and to find the keys that will unlock the real meaning of what
    	is being stated in the existing Bibles.
    
	There is much Truth and knowledge revealed in the present Bible 
    	even though it is a deluded version of the original scriptures.
	The Book of Revelation has been preserved untouched due to the
    	fact that it has never been understood, and there you will find
    	much revealed if you only knew the key to its esoteric message.
	I will only tell you that it has nothing to do with world wide
    	cataclysmic events.
    
			Juan
628.7TLE::COLLIS::JACKSONRoll away with a half sashayTue Mar 30 1993 15:0317
Re:  .6

Hi Juan,

You'll be happy to know that more intensive research has
been done in this area than for any other ancient
manuscripts.

You probably won't be happy to know, however, that this
research indicates that the current version of the Old
and New Testament that we have in Hebrew (and Aramaic)
and Greek are extremely close to the originals.  :-)

Please feel free to share you sources of information that
lead you to believe otherwise.

Collis
628.8MSBCS::JMARTINTue Mar 30 1993 15:4213
    "Heaven and Earth will pass away, but My Word shall never pass away."
    
    If you recall, David Koresh challenged the press to prove he is not
    Jesus Christ.  If he really believed the Bible was the authority, then
    the Bible would be the standard that would condemn him.  I would say
    by using the Bible, it would be relatively easy to prove he is not
    Jesus Christ.  
    
    So we blatently see that the extremist here is not relying on the
    standard (The Bible) he so strongly claims to be relying on! 
    Therefore, the Bible once again is true and Koresh is a liar!
    
    -Jack
628.9STUDIO::GUTIERREZCitizen of the CosmosTue Mar 30 1993 19:09106
    
	RE: .7

        Hi Collis,
		
	>research indicates that the current version of the Old
	>and New Testament that we have in Hebrew (and Aramic)
	>and Greek are extremely close to the originals,  :-)

	Even if that were true, the main problem lies in translating them
	from those languages into English and other modern languages,
	where much is lost.   All you have to do is look at the different
	Bibles in existence today, all of the "bibles of humanity" don't
	agree with each other and they are always fighting each other.

	Even if the translation were as close as humanly possible to the
	originals, many of the stories in the Bible were not meant to be
	interpreted literally, and there lies another problem.

	Here is an example taken from "The Mystery Teaching of the Bible"
        by Daisy E. Grove.

	"one can only take from any book according to what one is able to 
	 bring to it.  If the reader is not illumined, and possesses no 
	 knowledge of the very involved and ingenious system of symbolism 
	 employed, the real Bible must remain a closed book.  Its truths are 
	 written large, but he who reads according to the letter will only 
	 see but the highly coloured script.  

	 He will read of marriages and adulteries, of battles, conquests and 
	 captivities, of long journeyings and strange adventures, a picture 
	 language indeed, telling of spiritual realities which, to the 
	 uninstructed, are obscured by the very imagery through which they 
	 are intended to be conveyed.

	 We ourselves are the actors in this tremendous drama and these 
	 ancient stories, rightly understood, depict states of consciousness, 
	 modes of progression and phases of spiritual experience common to us 
	 all.  There are various figures in Biblical story by which the chief
	 actors in the drama of the soul are depicted.  The most easily
	 recognized is that of the Woman, a symbol which persists throughout	
	 the Bible.

	 Her sufferings allude to the sorrow of the soul realizing its state
	 of separation from its spiritual source, banished as it is from its
	 true home.  Her adulteries (a constant figure of speech for her
	 worship of false gods) denote the soiling or contamination of the
	 soul through its unfaithfulness to the Divine Lover, by giving itself
	 in worship to anything less than the highest.

	 Her lawful marriage is the union of soul with Spirit, her bringing
	 forth of children is the expression through her of the Divine.  At the
	 very outset we find the woman soul depicted as Eve.  The name means
	 "breath" or "life", and its association with Adam ("read earth") is
	 an obvious allusion to the relation of soul and body, spirit and
	 matter, life and form.

	 The consequent curse of Eve is the bondage of the soul within the
	 limitations of matter.  She is made subject to the "man" (physical
	 conditions).  The labor and pain of childbirth denote the spiritual
	 stress under which all good will be brought forth.  To her in her
	 degradation, however, comes the promise of ultimate victory, for she
	 is destined to bring forth that "seed" (spiritual life) which shall
	 "crush the head of the serpent" and so bring about the final
	 destruction of evil.
	
	 The symbol of the serpent in the story is indicative of the urge of 
	 the human principle to seek that wisdom through experience, and to 
	 begin its pilgrimage through form.  The urge is the result of the 
	 newly acquired duality of will and intellect, and it is to be noted 
	 that it is the will which, urged on by this acquisitive force, 
	 determines the action or direction of the intellect.

	 The tree, which in the English translation is located in the center
	 of the garden, is, in the Hebrew, located in the bottom of the
	 garden; and Eve states that she is not allowed to "dive" to it.
	 This is a very plain indication that the wisdom is only to be gained
	 by a "descent" into a "more" material state, a lower sphere of
	 activity.   The word translated as "ye shall die" is "themutthoun"
	 and is identical in meaning with the English word "transmute", which
	 it suggests.  It indicates merely a change to a lower state of being.

	 . . . . . . .

	 From Rahab in direct descent we come to Mary, the Virgin Mother.
	 Here we find the soul presented again as woman, but advanced by many
	 stages.  No longer rebellious, as Eve, no longer suffering shame and
	 degradation, but dedicated, conscious of its lofty mission and joyfuly
	 cooperating in the divine plan.

	 The name Mary is derived from the Hebrew MAR, "bitter" or "the sea".
	 Here we observe at once the connection of Mary with water, a constant
	 symbol of the soul.  For the human soul has a dual aspect, it faces
	 two ways.  On the one side it is attracted to matter through the
	 senses; this is the passional desire element in man, that which
	 imprisons and keeps him subject to the limitations of matter, that
	 which drags him down.

	 But on the other side the soul aspires to higher realms of being, 
	 it feels the upward pull of the spirit, it is attracted towards the
	 high and holy things, seeking to escape from the bondage of the flesh
	 and to be restored to a heavenly state.  Thus it is ever in strife,
	 drawn first one and then the other, alternating between good and evil,
	 desiring both.  This is "bitterness", its curse."

				Juan
628.10BSS::VANFLEETHelpless jelloTue Mar 30 1993 19:3913
    Strangely enough, I find myself in aggreement with Collis, Jill and
    Alfred on this one, although for an entirely different reason.  
    
    Any document/authority can be used as a justification for someone's
    actions, thereby relieving the actor of any personal responsibility for
    said actions.  Certainly the Bible has been used in such a way, but so
    have Plato's _Republic_, _Mein Kampf_, the story of Cinderella, etc,
    etc.  My point is that if someone is not willing to take personal
    responsibility for his or her actions, they're bound to find
    *something* on whichto place the blame or justify their actions. 
    
    Nanci
    
628.11LEDS::LOPEZA River.. proceeding!Thu Apr 15 1993 16:2414

	re.0

	Would I throw all my food away and never eat again because other
people don't know how to cook?

	The Bible is spiritual food (MAtthew). To throw it out would be to 
starve onesself of spiritual nourishment.

	"Man shall not live on bread alone but on every word which proceeds
out through the mouth of God."

ace