Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    This David Koresh must have a *lot* of charisma!
    
    Richard
    

    
    Hey, he's just personally interpretting the Bible to fit his own
    needs.  ;^)
    
    I never understand how people get caught up with these people.  I
    saw him on several interview clips and there was nothing charismatic
    about him that I saw.  Interesting that there are many foreigners
    who follow him...I wonder why that is?
    
    Sounds like they are armed to the max from all reports I heard.
    This could get real ugly.  I wonder who tipped them off to begin
    with.  Had the ATF had the element of surprise that they counted
    on, things might have gone much differently.
    
    Jill

Note 615.2

>    Hey, he's just personally interpretting the Bible to fit his own
>    needs.  ;^)

I know you're jesting here.  I can tell by the "smiley face."  But I'm
fairly certain Koresh would take exception to this claim.

Richard

    
    RE: .3
    
    >I know you're jesting here.  I can tell by the "smiley face."  
    >But I'm fairly certain Koresh would take exception to this claim.
    
    Probably...but that's okay, I take exception to his claims too. 
    
    Jill :-)

re Note 615.3 by CSC32::J_CHRISTIE:

> Note 615.2
> 
> >    Hey, he's just personally interpretting the Bible to fit his own
> >    needs.  ;^)
> 
> I know you're jesting here.  I can tell by the "smiley face."  But I'm
> fairly certain Koresh would take exception to this claim.
  
        On the contrary, OF COURSE he is "personally interpreting
        the Bible to fit his own needs."  I believe we all do.  I
        don't believe we can do otherwise (other than ignore it).

        He probably also believes that what is, to him, the "plain
        meaning" of the Bible is absolutely true and binding on him. 
        And I'm sure his followers do, too.

        Bob

    
    Actually, I like the line I just heard on the radio.  This
    is not a religious problem, this is a mental health problem.
    The man is crazy.  It's more than just being a religious
    zealot, the man is a taco short of a combination plate.
    This is an extremely dysfunctional and abuse group.  That
    Bible doesn't condon.
    
    Jill

>        On the contrary, OF COURSE he is "personally interpreting
>        the Bible to fit his own needs."  I believe we all do.  I
>        don't believe we can do otherwise (other than ignore it).

>        He probably also believes that what is, to him, the "plain
>        meaning" of the Bible is absolutely true and binding on him. 
>        And I'm sure his followers do, too.

.5,

	EXACTLY, Bob!

	(I'm taking this one home and framing it!)

Shalom,
Richard

    Bob,
    
    I don't think you can honestly say or even believe that this guy
    believes in the "plain meaning" of the Bible.  This seems to imply
    to mean that you're comparing him to conservative Christians.  I
    hope not.  I would find that extremely offensive.  So I sincerly
    hope you are not making that correlation.  He probably does think
    that what he believes is absolutely true and binding on him.
    These are two very different things.
    
    Jill

Note 615.8
    
>    I don't think you can honestly say or even believe that this guy
>    believes in the "plain meaning" of the Bible.

I'm pretty sure Bob is simply saying Koresh believes it is.

Richard

re Note 615.8 by CSC32::KINSELLA:

>     I don't think you can honestly say or even believe that this guy
>     believes in the "plain meaning" of the Bible.  

        I don't believe that you (and conservative Christians in
        general) believe what Koresh believes.

        However, I believe that when conservative Christians claim
        that they believe in the "plain meaning" of the Bible,
        although they may think this distinguishes their approach
        from that of others, that in reality all who look to the
        Bible for authoritative guidance believe in the meaning that
        they see -- the "plain meaning" as far as they can tell.

        Your "plain meaning" may be very different from their "plain
        meaning", of course.  That is my point:  there is no such
        thing for most complex texts as a single, unique, unambiguous
        "plain meaning".

        Bob

                        * For Internal Use Only *

    RTw  03/09 2236  CULT LEADER CLAIMS SAME SURNAME AS GOD, ALSO ...

    CULT LEADER CLAIMS SAME SURNAME AS GOD, ALSO MEANS DEATH

    By Tabassum Zakaria

    WACO, Texas, March 9, Reuter - Cult leader David Koresh told
    negotiators seeking to end a siege heading into its 11th day that he
    has the same surname as God -- and it also means death, the FBI said on
    Tuesday.

    Koresh, 33, the head of a Branch Davidian sect barricaded in a farm
    compound, said his surname comes from the Bible "and that the name
    Koresh is in fact the surname of God. It also means death," Federal
    Bureau of Investigation agent Bob Ricks said.

    Koresh still says he will walk out of the heavily armed complex when he
    gets a message from God.

    Federal authorities pulled in stronger artillery -- M-1 Abrams tanks --
    after Koresh said he had the weaponry to blow up the lighter Bradley
    armoured personnel carriers that previously had acted as a buffer
    between the cult and more than 400 agents and police surrounding the
    compound.

    Television cameras showed four tanks at the 77-acre (31 hectare) farm.
    The Defence Department said two had been sent from the Army's Fort
    Hood, in Texas, but local authorities would not comment on the number.

    The cult has been holed up in the compound since February 28 after an
    attempt by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to arrest Koresh
    on weapons charges was met with gunfire from within the compound, now
    dubbed "Ranch Apocalypse" by the media.

    Four ATF agents died and up to 15 cult members may have been killed in
    the shootout.

    A state judge on Tuesday ruled that all but three of the 21 children
    released so far in the standoff must temporarily stay with the Texas
    Department of Protective and Regulatory Services until home studies are
    conducted on relatives seeking custody.

    Three children were given to their father who is divorced from the
    mother, still inside the compound.

    An aunt of two British children released gave a message to Koresh
    outside the court hearing: "If you want to preach a message, preach it
    to the world" but let those inside come out.

    "Send them back to us, we want them," said Gladys Williams, whose
    sister Evette Fagan is one of the 107 followers still in the compound.

    The children were not protected by their parents during the ATF raid,
    but were in their rooms and spoke of gunfire and people being wounded,
    Joyce Sparks, a superviser with the Department of Protective and
    Regulatory Services, testified at the hearing.

    On a hot sunny afternoon with temperatures above 80 degrees (27
    Centigrade), cult members tried to get their message out in a more
    visible manner by hanging a white sheet out of a tower window saying
    "God help us we need the press."

    It was apparently in response to a talk show host on Dallas radio
    station KGBS who said to the cult if they needed help to hang a blanket
    or sheet outside a window.

    Koresh in recent days has been described as irritable and mercurial by
    the FBI. Cult members have started using profanity, a change from their
    previous demeanor, the FBI's Ricks said.

    REUTER TZ KG CM

    Gee, I guess I shouldn't be surprised to find out that God has a
    surname.  After all, Jesus not only has a surname ("Christ"), but a
    middle initial, "H"--as in Jesus H. Christ.  :-)
    
    -- Mike

    Bob,
    
    Thanks for your input.  And as you probably already know, I
    whole-heartedly disagree with you.
    
    Jill :-)

    Hi All:
    
    Back from Vacae with aching joints.  Just bought a house and have been
    working all week.
    
    Mr Koresh has already exposed himself as a counterfeit.  First he
    claimed to be God.  Recently he stated he was not God, but a prophet.
    If he were a true prophet, stating he was God in the first place would
    put him under condemnation by the Mosaic law.  If he isn't a prophet,
    then he speaks with no authority whatsoever.  Either way, he loses!
    
    Jack

I watched Street Stories last evening, another one of those TV magazines.

They had a segment where they interviewed the only member of the Branch
Davidian who was away from the compound at the time the siege began, nearly
two weeks ago.

Koresh's follower was both calm and composed as he stated his certainty that
those in the compound were prepared to die if Koresh chooses not to surrender.

The hold this man must have on those people!

Richard

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	WACO, Texas (UPI) -- The FBI Wednesday added Christmas carols to the
arsenal of psychological weapons being used to force a peaceful end to
the 25-day-old siege of cult leader David Koresh and his followers.
	Reporters stationed nearly two miles away could near FBI loudspeakers
serenading Koresh with a selection of Christmas carols ranging from
Jingle Bells to Andy Williams' rendition of, ``The Most Wonderful Time
of the Year.
	In recent days, the FBI has used the speakers to play tape recordings
of their negotiations with Koresh and meditation chants of Tibetan monks
in an effort to pressure the 95 sect members to surrender and come out.
	Another Branch Davidian walked out Tuesday. Thirty-five have left
since an ill-fated raid Feb. 28 in which four federal agents were killed
in a gunfight with Koresh and his followers. An undetermined number of
cult members died.
	A total of 95 people, 17 of them children, remain inside, according
to figures supplied by Koresh.
	FBI Special Agent Bob Ricks said Tuesday that a letter delivered to
Koresh late Monday offered him access to his followers after his
surrender and access to the Christian Broadcasting Network. He said
Koresh rejected it ``out of hand''.
	Negotiators continue to talk with Koresh, who now complains of 
``internal bleeding'' from a gunshot wound suffered Feb. 28, and they
hope that ``additional people'' may be released soon, he said.
	Ricks said Koresh expressed interest in using the Christian
Broadcasting Network, but he would also like access to the general news
media. ``We are saying he's not going to have that until he comes out,''
he said.
	Early in the siege on March 2, a taped, 58-minute Koresh statement
was broadcast by the same Christian network. Koresh promised to
surrender with his followers, but he reneged, saying God had told him to
wait for a message.
	Access to the Koresh followers who have left the compound has been
restricted by the FBI, but two of them have called out from the McLellan
County Jail to KGBS radio talk show host Ron Engleman in Dallas.
	Brad Branch, 34, disputed ATF statements that an agent first went to
the front door of the compound Feb. 28, announced they had a search
warrant and that the cultists fired the first shots in the bloody
gunfight.
	``All of a sudden two trucks come barreling down our drive. I'm
standing there at the front door, and they bail out, and it's ATF
running at the door, yelling and screaming,'' Branch told KGBS.
	``Dave opened the door and had his hand out and said, ''Now hold on,
there's women and children in here,' and bullets started hitting the
door. I never heard them say they had a search warrant. Never.``
	Meanwhile, detention hearings will continue this week for nine of
Koresh's followers who left during the weekend. So far, none of them has
been released on bond by federal magistrates. They are being held as
material witnesses.

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	CHICAGO (UPI) -- A former David Koresh follower Wednesday told daytime
talk star Oprah Winfrey that the Waco, Texas, standoff at the cult's
compound ``is going to be a bloodbath, and it's going to end up at
Passover time.''
	Former Koresh cult member Bruce Gent and his wife Lisa discussed the
Koresh standoff in a taping for ``The Oprah Winfrey Show,'' which will
air across the nation Thursday.
	``The people that are coming out now are deadwood,'' Bruce Gent told
Winfrey. ``He (Koresh) has reasons to put them out, and it will be the
hard core that stay there with him and fight it out 'til the end.''
	Federal authorities conducting negotiations with Koresh and his aides
have grown increasingly frustrated by the cult leader's refusal to
discuss surrender at the compound.
	The Gents' 24-year-old son Peter allegedly was killed in the shootout
that began the standoff at the compound 24 days ago. The couple's
daughter Nicole is one of Koresh's wives and the mother of his child.
She is still in the compound.
	The Gents were interviewed by satellite from Australia.
	Lisa Gent told Winfrey that she believes her daughter will be 
``standing by (Koresh) until the end.''
	Joining the Gents in the interview was another daughter, former
Koresh follower Michelle Tom and her husband James, who charged that
Koresh brutally beat their eight-month-old child for 40 minutes.
	In Winfrey's Chicago studio for the taping was former Koresh
followers Jeannine Bunds and her daughter Robyn, who both were wives of
the cult leader.
	Robyn said she fears for the safety of the children who remain in the
compound and believes there is a strong chance they might die there.
	``All his children are in there with him, and there is a reason for
it,'' she said. She said when she gave birth to Koresh's son Shaun, the
cult leader told her that their son ``was going to die.''

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	WACO, Texas (UPI) -- A man described by his mother as a ``religious
fanatic'' walked through a ring of armored vehicles and federal agents
and entered cult leader David Koresh's fortified compound, federal
agents said Thursday.
	FBI Special Agent Bob Ricks said the man, identified as Louis Anthony
Alaniz, 24, of Houston, surprised members of the Branch Davidian sect
who are on the 26th day of an armed standoff with hundreds of federal
agents.
	``Their response was one of shock that there was this person knocking
on their door,'' he said. ``They thought it was an undercover FBI agent
trying to enter the compound.''
	Agents saw Alaniz approach the compound but did not try to stop him
because he was unarmed and they did not want to force agents to leave
armored vehicles and expose themselves to gunfire from Mount Carmel, he
said.
	Koresh admitted Alaniz and Ricks said after some Bible instruction
from the 33-year-old self-avowed Messiah the man may be freed. The FBI
contacted the man's mother and she described her son as a ``religious
fanatic.''
	Ricks said Alaniz has never been involved with Koresh before.
	``He is there in search of whatever truths Mr. Koresh may be able to
impart to him. He thought it was the center of action that involved
perhaps Biblical prophecies and wanted to be a participant in that,''
Ricks said.
	Ricks said they reopened direct talks with Koresh late Wednesday but
he refused to describe them as ``negotiations'' because the cult leader
was not discussing critical issues necessary to settle the standoff.
	There are 95 people still inside the compound, 17 of them children,
according to Koresh's figures. Thirty-five people have left the compound
since the Feb. 28 raid that began the siege.
	During the briefing Thursday, the head of the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms intelligence division responded to charges by
Koresh followers that the ATF fired first in the Feb. 28 raid that cost
the lives of four agents.
	David Troy said the accusations were ``self-serving'' to protect sect
members involved in the bloody gunfight and that the ATF agents who
raided the compound had a warrant for Koresh's arrest and a legal search
warrant for illegal weapons and explosives.
	``The people who are making those statements are, of course, in our
opinion making self-serving statements because they were members of the
compound who in fact opened fire indiscriminately with fully automatic
weapons at officers of the law who were executing a legal warrant of
arrest and search,'' he said.
	Troy said the agents had an arrest warrant for Koresh for possession
of illegal, fully automatic weapons and a search warrant for the entire
compound to look for illegal weapons and explosives.
	``When we attempted to execute those warrants we found that the
probable cause that we had developed was in fact, exactly true. They
were armed with a large number of fully automatic firearms which they
had fired indiscriminately.''
	Troy said ``there is no question'' that Koresh and his followers
converted commercially-sold semi-automatic firearms into fully automatic
weapons, which is illegal under federal law.
	He said the ATF arrested more than 13,000 violent criminals, many of
them in high-risk raids, and that the Waco exercise was another one of
those raids aimed at enforcing federal firearms laws.
	``There is no question why they had them (firearms) in there. They
were expecting some day that the law enforcement authorities in this
country were going to call them to account for their illegal acitives,''
he said. ``When that day came, they acted in an offensive way, they
opened fire on the agents attempting to serve warrants.''
	Four ATF agents were killed and 15 wounded when they attempted to
execute a search warrant for illegal firearms and explosives Feb. 28. A
undetermined number of the Branch Davidians were killed or wounded.

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	WACO, Texas (UPI) -- FBI agents are cooperating with the Texas Rangers
in preserving crime scene evidence at the Branch Davidian compound where
four federal agents died in a gunfight 39 days ago, an agent said
Wednesday.
	A report in the Houston Chronicle Wednesday said friction had
developed between the Rangers and the FBI as the siege with cult leader
David Koresh and his more than 90 followers continued at the fortified
stronghold.
	The Rangers, which are charged with investigating the slayings, are
upset that the FBI negotitators tipped the cultists to the significance
of evidence still inside the compound and made little effort to preserve
the crime scene.
	One anonymous source told the Chronicle once the standoff ends, the
federal agents will leave town ``and hang (the Rangers) butts out to
dry.''
	Special Agent Bob Ricks said a review of the negotiation tapes found
there was discussion of evidence when Koresh and his followers said they
wanted to preserve evidence for their case against the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
	``We told them the sooner you let us get in there and observe that
crime scene, the better the ability we will have to preserve any
evidence in there,'' he said.
	Ricks said negotiators also remarked that one of the first chores for
investigators when the standoff ended would be collection of shell
casings outside the compound. He also pointed out that the Branch
Davidians are smart enough to know what would be evidence without any
help.
	Ricks also said he talked Wednesday with the Rangers captain in
charge of the investigation and he was assured they were receiving the
information they needed, although he conceded there may have been a
problem earlier.
	``There were some questions about the distribution of information,''
he said. ``We've taken steps to make sure this is not occurring.''
	A Rangers spokesman declined to comment on the Chronicle story.
	Ricks said the FBI would probably not be upset if reports are true
that Houston lawyer Dick DeGuerin talked about a book or movie deal with
Koresh when he made an unexpected visit to the cult leader Sunday.
	``If I had to guess what the good news was Sunday that he had to
report back was that he probably got a book contract or television
contract,'' he said.
	Ricks said the FBI understood when they allowed DeGuerin to consult
privately with Koresh that he would discuss a retainer. He said in 
``some ways'' a book or movie deal would be positive. He said it could
be a way for Koresh to get his message out, one of his goals, and also
provide a retainer for DeGuerin.
	Meanwhile, authorities continue to wait for the end of Passover, when
Koresh indicated to his lawyers he might surrender. Agents now think
Koresh's observance began Tuesday and will end on April 13, but there
may be a hitch.
	Steve Schneider, Koresh's top aide, told agents that Koresh has still
not received his message from God. ``Now we not only have to wait for
Passover to come, but we also have to wait for Mr. Koresh to get his
message from God,'' Ricks said.
	Authorities confirmed for the first time that a former Honolulu
police officer identified as Jaydeen Wendel, may be one of the Branch
Davidians inside the compound, but they do not know if she is alive or
dead.

Subject: Cult claims six of its members dead

	WACO, Texas (UPI) -- A spokesman for cult leader David Koresh said six
of his followers are dead, either from the Feb. 28 gunfight in which
four federal agents also died, or other reasons, authorities said
Friday.
	The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents were killed
in a furious gun battle when they attempted to serve warrants at the
Branch Davidian stronghold, setting off a siege now in its 41st day.
	Accounts of how many cult members were killed or wounded have been
confusing since that bloody Sunday outside Waco because reports from
inside the camp have varied widely and federal agents have been unable
to confirm the figures.
	But Friday, FBI Special Agent Richard Schwein disclosed that Steve
Schneider, Koresh's top lieutenant, told negotiators that six cult
members were killed, five men and one woman. Two of the dead were
previously identified, he said.
	Schwein refused to identify the four new fatalties, saying the FBI
could not verify the accuracy of the information.
	``We can't publicly announce someone is dead without being able to
verify it. That's a terrible thing to tell a family,'' he told
reporters.
	The previously identified cult fatalities were Peter Gent, an
Australian, who was buried outside the compound, and Michael Schroeder,
who was killed in a second gunfight outside the compound Feb. 28.
	Schneider told the FBI that none of the children were injured to his
knowledge. According to Koresh's figures, 17 of the 96 people who remain
inside Mount Carmel are children. Thirty-five people have left.
	Schneider again emphasized that neither he or Koresh ever agreed to
surrender after Passover, which according to their observance will end
April 13. Cult lawyers had indicated they might come out at the end of
the observance.
	FBI agents continue using loud sounds and bright lights at night to
keep the Branch Davidians awake, and they have indications they may be
running low on water. Electricity was cut off weeks ago. They eat
prepared military meals, according to the agents.
	Schwein, who supervises the nightly psychological warfare, said
authorities will keep the pressure up until Koresh and his followers
walk out.
	``We're going to get them out of there and they're going before the
bar of justice to answer for the murder of federal agents,'' he said.
	Cult members have displayed two new signs from a window, one of them
accusing the FBI of lying. Reporters have been unable to read the second
one through their telephoto lenses at the media camp two miles away.
	Schwein also said that another cult member appeared on the roof of
the compound Thursday night but went back inside. It was the second
night in a row that federal agents have seen members of the sect sneak
out and then return.
	He said they may be taking a smoke break.
	``The only person in there allowed to associate with females, or
drink, or smoke is Koresh,'' Schwein said. ``So we think like sixth-
graders, these guys snuck out for a smoke.''
    

Subject: Koresh sends ``Letter from God'' to FBI

	WACO, Texas (UPI) -- A special agent revealed Saturday that Branch
Davidian leader David Koresh sent the FBI a four-page letter which he
said came from God, and which contained Old Testament threats to God's
enemies.
	``The letter conveys messages from God in the first-person,'' Special
Agent Bob Ricks said, ``And refers to David as 'my servant.'''
	Ricks said the letter, written ``as a revelation from God,'' is
threatening, and cites six biblical passages.
	``The gist of the letter, like the biblical passages, conveys
messages of a powerful, angry God, empowering his chosen people to
punish and harm those who oppose them.''
	``He cited Isiah 45; Revelations, Chapter 10, Verse 7; Revelations
18; Psalms 2; Jeremiah 50, 22-25; Psalm 18,'' Ricks said, noting that
the citations speak of an all-powerful God and are ``devoid of any of
the traditional Christian references of tempered non-violence that would
be associated with what we normally interpret the Christian message to
be.''
	He said the FBI would not release the letter because if its 
``evidentiary nature.''
	Ricks said FBI negotiators had not been able to reach those within
the fortified compound to alert them that concertina wire would be laid
around the compound, beginning on Saturday afternoon.
	The purpose of the wire would be to better control, upon surrender,
the 96 people who remain inside, according to Koresh's figures.
	``Too many people in the last few days have violated our
instructions,'' Ricks said.
	Ricks noted that Steve Schneider, Koresh's top lieutenant, ``Came out
on one occasion too many yesterday, and we need to have complete control
over those people as they come out.'' Agents set off flares and flash-
bang devices to frighten the defiant cultists who emerged Friday.
	Ricks said the FBI is proceeding under the belief that ``they will be
surrendering sometime next week after Passover'' and are putting up the
wire to ``ensure the safe handling of the people as they exit the
compound, and also to ensure that the crime scene is preserved.''
	Four Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents were killed in a
furious gun battle when they attempted to serve warrants at the
stronghold, setting off a siege now in its 41st day.
	With FBI permission, Schneider on Friday delivered the purported
letter from God and also set off a smoke cannister near the site where
members buried a cult member who died in the Feb. 28 attack in which
four federal agents died.
	However, Schneider apparently took advantage of the situation.
	Asked when Houston attorneys Dick Deguerin and Jack Zimmerman would
be allowed to re-enter the compound to consult with Koresh and
Schiender, Ricks said, ``The attorneys will only be allowed to go back
inside if it is the same day they (Koresh's followers) come out.''
	Ricks said of Koresh, ``If he is truly concerned with justice and
getting his message out, the only way to do it is to come out and face
the criminal justice system.''

    
    Just received a newsletter from the Christian Research Institute
    who specializes in researching cults and has been providing the
    FBI with information on the Branch Davidians for the last couple
    of weeks.
    
    The following are doctrines of the cult's leader, David Koresh:
    
    1.  Koresh is the antitypical (the actual foreshadowed) "David."
    
    2.  Koresh is also the antitypical Cyrus (Koresh is Hebrew for Cyrus)
        of Isaiah 45:13 -- therefore everything he does is led by God  
        (based on the KJV).
    
    3.  The KJV is the only true and uncorrupted translation of the Bible.
    
    4.  Koresh is the only one who can interpret Scripture.
    
    5.  Koresh is the Lamb of Revelation.
    
    6.  All women in the commune belong to Koresh, including all
        married women.
    
    7.  Koresh is Jesus Christ reincarnated.
    
    Even the very nature of the godhead has been perverted by Koresh
    in a most unusual way.  According to him, God is not a triune being
    (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but a foursome (Father, Mother,
    Son, and Daughter).
    
    The Mother of the godhead is the Holy Spirit.  The Daughter of the
    godhead is the "Holy Ghost" (KJV) who will be incarnated as Koresh's
    eternal, perfect mate when he is glorified (she will come out of his
    side as did Eve from Adam!).
    
    Ex-Branch Davidians claim to have observed extreme child abuse,
    beatings of disobedient members, severe food and sleep deprivation,
    the forcing of individuals to cut off family ties, isolation, and
    the use of fear and intimidation against members who dare disagree
    with Koresh.

    RE: .23
    
    Bizarre yes.....shouldn't have opened fire on though.
    
    Marc H.

Note 615.23

>    Ex-Branch Davidians claim to have observed extreme child abuse,
>    beatings of disobedient members, severe food and sleep deprivation,
>    the forcing of individuals to cut off family ties, isolation, and
>    the use of fear and intimidation against members who dare disagree
>    with Koresh.

Koresh is simply employing classic cult strategies:

From Note 226.1

o  Controlling the time, attention and social life of the individual.
   Isolation from 'contaminating doctrines' and the choices the outside
   world offers is key.

o  Creating a sense of urgency within the individual.  The cult must convince
   the individual of the ultimate importance of the mission, message and/or
   vision of the cult.

o  Meeting the affective needs of the individual.  Cults frequently provide
   a surrogate family, sometimes referring to each other by familial names:
   Mother, Father, Sister, and Brother.

o  Control of dyadic relationships.  Many cults maintain separate living
   quarters even for married couples.  The cult must maintain the strongest
   commitment of the individual, even above that of a marriage.

o  Possessing credible leadership.  The leaders of cults are often highly
   charismatic (gifted at attracting followers), but that charisma must be
   supported by consistency and integrity, or the illusion thereof.

Peace,
Richard

    RE: .25
    
    Yes...but...should them be openly fired upon?
    
    Marc H.

    No, Marc.  I don't believe they should have been fired upon.  I keep
    hearing the BATF opened fire first, which is also pretty disturbing,
    if true.
    
    Richard
    

    Also Richard, the latest reports seem to indicate that the agents
    killed were due to "friendly fire"!
    
    Sad day when the government can attack people like this. 
    
    Marc H.

I admit that I'm simplistic in a lot of ways, but I
tend to believe what the government says.

The reports of friendly fire deaths were dismissed
as nonsense.  Yet they persist.

The report that ATF agents fired first has also been
roundly denounced as false.  In addition, a detailed
report of what happened (according to the ATF) has been
published.  No one has produced a shred of evidence
(that I'm aware of) to refute what ATF has claimed.

But, then again, I freely admit that I'm an optimist
and am gullible.

Collis

    My problem here, is that we are getting one side only of the story.
    As a student during the dark days of the Vietnam Era/LBJ/Nixon, I have
    a deep, deep distrust of our government.  Its from first hand
    knowledge.
    
    Marc H.

    re .25
    
    Oh, wait a minute... this is the David Koresh note.  For a moment there
    I thought I was in the "Commentary on Paul" note.  :^)
    
    Eric

    re .29

    > No one has produced a shred of evidence (that I'm aware of) to refute
    > what ATF has claimed.

    When the ATF has the "evidence" under lock and key, and observers are
    kept a mile away, it's kind'a hard for anyone else to "prove" the ATF is
    wrong.  But likewise it makes a cynic like me, well... cynical.


    > But, then again, I freely admit that I'm an optimist and am gullible.

    Which explains some of your beliefs expressed in this conference. 
    :^) X 100


    	Only funnin'

    	Eric

    The situation has apparently come to a tragic end.
    
    Six survivors from the compound is what I heard.
    
    Richard
    

    
    Actually I've heard all kinds of conflicting reports.  Anywhere from
    6-35 in custody.  Rumors of tunnels and underground bunkers.  Four
    people on the way to a burn unit - yet hospitals saying nobody has
    been admitted.  It's too early to tell what's happening.  Talked to
    my mom whose been watching the whole thing and she said that the
    Feds seemed real taken off-guard by the fire.  There are rumors that
    the Davidians started it and rumors that the AFT started it, so it'll
    take awhile before they sort it all out.
    
    Jill
    

 Last I heard was that 2 of the Davidians taken to the burn unit admitted to
setting the fire..





Jim

    At roughly 6 AM this morning, agents of the FBI and BATF used Bradley
    fighting vehicles and M1 tanks to punch several holes in the wooden
    walls of the Branch Davidian complex.  They then used hoses to pump
    tear gas into the complex in an attempt to get the Davidians to
    surrender.
    
    The justice department, which kept President Clinton closely informed
    of the operation, claims that at no time did they use any incendiary
    devices such as grenades.
    
    Shortly after noon, the spotter plane reported seeing fires break out
    at separate ends of the complex.  Whipped by 30 mph winds, the entire
    structure was burned to the ground in 40 minutes.  Eight Davidian
    members are currently in custody, and two of them claim to have set the
    fires.  Reasons as to why are specualtive.  President Clinton and
    Attorney General Janet Reno have publically stated that they claim
    "full responsibility" for the fire, expressing regret that the
    Davidians were apparently unwilling to surrender after the tear gas
    attack.  The best guess is that after their gas masks started to fail
    that David Koresh ordered the fire.
    
    The justice department does not expect to find any survivors.  Over 80
    Davidians, including over a dozen children, were inside the compound at
    the time of the fire.

    So it appears that tax evasion, the ATFs reason for starting this,
    has become a capital crime. All this could have been avoided if the
    government had just not started shooting. There hadn't been any
    problems for the people who had investigated the child abuse problems
    in the past. But somehow the tax collector just wasn't satisified with
    things that had worked before.
    
    			Alfred

re Note 615.37 by CVG::THOMPSON:

>     So it appears that tax evasion, the ATFs reason for starting this,
>     has become a capital crime. All this could have been avoided if the
>     government had just not started shooting. 

        Yes, every step of escalation appears to have been taken by
        the government -- from the very beginning.

        Certainly the Davidians were extremists -- but society can
        be quite extreme as well.

        Bob

    The FBI and the BATF  were responsible for the deaths. Your government
    at work.  
    
    Marc H.

From the reports I've heard, the fires were set by the Davidians
themselves, not by the FBI or AFTB; thus it isn't fair to say that tax
evasion has become a capital offense.  Yes, it's tragic that so many
children died in the Waco standoff, just as it's tragic that so many
children died at Jonestown.

				-- Bob

    re .40 

    I don't believe there was a military confrontation in Jonestown,
    however.  

    This whole Waco thing is disturbing to me.  There's no good guys here. 
    It's sort of like if you had a nutcase standing at the edge of the
    cliff and holding a baby.  Would you sneak up behind him in shout
    "Boo!" in an effort to make him let the baby go?

    I think it's important to point out that no one has accused the
    Branch-Davidians of being a threat to the community at large.  The
    citizens of Wake were not losing sleep at night; they weren't fearing
    an armed takeover of the community... nor have the BD's been accused of
    plotting such.  From my perspective the BATF/FBI were as resolutely
    zealous in their "cause" as the BD's were in theirs.

    The whole thing just smells real bad.

    		Eric

re Note 615.41 by HURON::MYERS:

>     I don't believe there was a military confrontation in Jonestown,
>     however.  
  
        Jonestown never got to the stage of a full-scale armed
        confrontation, but there were some attempts at
        intervention/investigation from outsiders (remember the
        congressman who was killed?), so the Jonestown leaders may
        have sensed some degree of threat.

        Bob

 The congressman (Leo Ryan) became involved at the request of family members
 who had loved ones at Jonestown.  If I'm not mistaken the loved ones were 
 children of members who had left the cult, and Jones was keeping them.






 Jim

    RE: .40

>From the reports I've heard, the fires were set by the Davidians
>themselves, not by the FBI or AFTB; 

    	Survivors from the compound claim that the FBI tank knocked over
    kerosene lamps which started the fires. I doubt we'll ever know the
    truth.

    And in any case, the ATF killed 6 people during their initial assault.
    They went in with guns blazing knowing there were women and children
    inside. This in spite of knowing that previous investigators hadn't 
    had any trouble with the old "knock on the door" technique of gaining
    entry.

    			Alfred

    Hmmm....  I've struggled with this too but for different reasons I
    guess.  What bothers me is this prevailing attitude of "it doesn't
    matter if they were doing anything wrong, they weren't hurting anybody. 
    The government should have let them be.  They weren't bothering the
    neighbors."   Since when is it right to let people break the law.  If
    that's okay, why have the laws at all?  And since when is brainwashing,
    child abuse, and even emotional and physical abuse of adults not
    hurting anybody?  To say that it would be more humane to let that
    continue is ludicrous.  I think Koresh would have eventually collided
    with the authorities anyway to help self-fulfill his prophecies.  I
    don't think this fit his timetable, but it did serve his purposes.
    
    What happened on Monday was tragic.  But I have my doubts that it was
    more tragic then the years that lead up to it.  The greater sin here
    was the spiritial death of these individuals which had already taken
    place.  These people made a poor choice in who to follow and it would
    eventually take both their lives (physical and spiritual).  Could time
    have saved them?  Maybe.  Or maybe it would have claimed more souls.
    
    I'm not saying all the actions of the government were right.  I don't
    think they had a good understanding of where Koresh was coming from,
    but even if they did, I don't honestly believe the outcome would have
    been much different.  Maybe the timing, perhaps even the method, but
    not the outcome.
    
    My hearts go out to the families whose lose of loved ones is now
    complete.  The years have indeed been a process of loss for them, this
    being the finality of that process.  My hope is that they would find
    comfort in the One true God.  And for the cult members that have lived
    that they will be able to break free of the lies and find the Truth.
    
    Jill

     
    RE: 639.65
    
    Prophet /= God's Prophet
    
    >Koresh apparently upheld the absolute authority of Scripture
    NOT TRUE - he upheld interpretations only by himself alone.
    

re Note 615.46 by CSC32::KINSELLA:

>     >Koresh apparently upheld the absolute authority of Scripture
>     NOT TRUE - he upheld interpretations only by himself alone.

        Yes, but do you know anyone who believes that another's
        interpretations are valid when they differ from their own
        interpretations of Scripture?

        We are (almost) all petty Koreshes on this point.

        Bob

re Note 615.45 by CSC32::KINSELLA:

>     And since when is brainwashing,
>     child abuse, and even emotional and physical abuse of adults not
>     hurting anybody?  To say that it would be more humane to let that
>     continue is ludicrous.  

        Jill,

        If it were my child or sibling who was a captive of Koresh, I
        would far prefer that they suffer "brainwashing, child abuse,
        and even emotional and physical abuse" than that they burn to
        death.

        Bob

Note 639.66

>>    Koresh apparently upheld the absolute authority of Scripture, which some
>>    call God's Word.

>    Seems contradictory to what I've heard.

Tell me more, Alfred.

Richard

    RE: .47 & .48
    
    Oh not true Bob.  A David Koresh could never participate in an arena
    like this.   There's no way he could tolerate it.  This is a man who
    had people who disagreed with any of his statements beaten up who
    didn't agree with him in the presence of many others as a means of
    intimidation.
    
    Bob, I'm not saying that it was better for them to burn to death than
    to be brainwashed and abused.  Nobody wanted that outcome except maybe
    Koresh.  I'm saying that not taking action because they are not hurting
    anyone is an inaccurate statement.  These people were hurting daily.
    Their human rights were being violated.  Yet, people are saying "Don't
    bug them, they are not effecting anyone outside their ranch.  So live
    and let live."  I think that allowing that to go on is worse than
    trying to coerse people to come out.  I believe the outcome was caused
    more by events inside than by those outside.  What I'm saying in a
    nutshell is that I think it's wrong to accuse the government of being
    horrible when their accusers would have just sat back and allowed
    the abuse to continue because it wasn't interfering with life outside
    the compound.  Maybe that's how the people that lived around Aushwitz
    felt too..."Hey, they're not bother me, so let them be."
    
    Jill

    .50
    
    >  A David Koresh could never participate in an arena
    >  like this.   There's no way he could tolerate it. 
    
    I certainly agree with this part.
    
    Richard
    

>>>    Koresh apparently upheld the absolute authority of Scripture, which some
>>>    call God's Word.
>
>>    Seems contradictory to what I've heard.
>
>Tell me more, Alfred.
    
    Everything I've read seems to indicate that he developed his own idea
    of what to believe and picked and choose verses and bits of passages to
    support his idea. Any part of the Bible that didn't fit he rejected. He
    used the Bible mostly as a tool for others not as an authority over
    himself. He saw himself as above or beyond the Bible.
    
    			Alfred

    that's an awfully common syndrome in *any* faith.

    RE: .53 If you refer to picking and choosing, you are probably correct.
    However Koresh went far beyond that.
    
    			Alfred

    .54  Alfred, compared to us 'regular' folks, I agree.  But still,
    I think it would be fair to say that Koresh upheld the absolute
    authority of the Bible.  That isn't to say he didn't do "funny stuff"
    with what he found therein.
    
    Richard
    

    
    Koresh upheld himself as the absolute authority.
    
    I think it's interesting Richard that you keep insisting on putting
    him on a level with those of us who hold the Bible as inerrant.  I
    think you have a scotoma when it comes to this.  You seem just bound
    and determined to relate us to any nutcase in all of history who
    has for their own purposes misused the Bible against others.  If
    you want a more appropriate example of misusing the Bible and it's
    message for your own purposes, perhaps you can reread the stations of
    the Way of the Cross that you entered.  You've interspersed your own
    agenda in with the message as did Koresh.  I find both equally
    offensive.
    
    Jill

    Re: .52 - Alfred

>>    Everything I've read seems to indicate that he developed his own idea
>>    of what to believe and picked and choose verses and bits of passages to
>>    support his idea. Any part of the Bible that didn't fit he rejected. He
>>    used the Bible mostly as a tool for others not as an authority over
>>    himself. He saw himself as above or beyond the Bible.
    
  Alfred, its interesting that you bring this up.  This would punch holes in
some of the participants philosophies in this conference.  Using the Bible to 
fit ones own agenda.  So are you saying it is potentially dangerous to ignore
some of God's standards if it doesn't fit one's agenda?  What does this say
of the social trends we tolerate in our society today?  Can God judge nations
as he has in the past?  You bring up a very important point here!!

-Jack

.56

I realize that the potential for excess exists on all sides.  James Naylor
is a name that most Quakers will recognize, for example.

It has been my experience that anyone who says I've distorted Scripture
in some way is really saying that my understanding of Scripture is
simply incongruent with their own.  It's rare that someone who shares my
understanding of Scripture makes such an accusation.  Now, I don't know
for sure, but I'd be willing to wager (if I was a wagering man) that it's
pretty much the same scenario at the conservative end of the spectrum.
The agenda of the Way of the Cross/Way of Justice is the same as the Bible's.
Your mileage obviously varies.

As for Koresh, its well known that he had a knack for recalling Scripture.

So did George Fox, another Quaker.  It was said of Fox that he could rewrite
the whole of the Bible from memory.

It makes sense that Koresh considered his interpretation of Scripture
to be supreme.  After all, if Koresh is Christ returned, as at least some
of his follows were convinced he was, then who is there better qualified
to explain the Scriptures?

Peace,
Richard

    I assume that Dave Koresh and his followers believed that they were
    responding to divine revelation.  Therefore if he had a vision that God
    wanted him to kill himself and his followers and he felt it mandatory
    to submit to the will of God then he had no choice then to do what he
    did.
    
    Where is the dividing line between submission to divine
    authority and insanity.  

Re: Patricia - .59

>>    I assume that Dave Koresh and his followers believed that they were
>>    responding to divine revelation.  Therefore if he had a vision that God
>>    wanted him to kill himself and his followers and he felt it mandatory
>>    to submit to the will of God then he had no choice then to do what he
>>    did.
    
>>    Where is the dividing line between submission to divine
>>    authority and insanity.  

Patricia:

The Word of God tells us to test the spirits.  If his followers knew the Word,
they would have known that "...many will come saying I Am He".  They would also
know that, "For as fast as lightening flashes from the east to the west so 
shall the coming of the son of man be."  When Jesus was to come again, "...every
eye shall behold Him."  That means everybody in the world will behold his power
and coming, not just a few people in Waco, Texas.  If they had been aware of 
these simple truths, they would have submitted to divine authority by getting
out of there.  This is assuming they were there of their own free will.  David
Koresh made himself to be God, blasphemous and the furthest thing from 
christianity.

This is why I am such a stickler (A pharisee is some peoples mind) in regards
to standards, sources and accountability.  When there is deviation from standing
on the foundation of the Bible, it can be a dangerous thing.  I have no doubt 
both you and I will see more horrendous things in our lifetime because we fail
to learn from the past!

-Jack

    A recent issue of the Weekly World News reported that Satan's face
    appeared in the smoke plumes rising from the Branch Davidian compound
    fire.  There was even a photograph on the cover to prove it.

    Now, given the high standards of the Weekly World News, I would
    normally accept this article as being utterly true, but I was impressed
    to see some independent journalistic confirmation of this story on the
    front page of another tabloid, the Sun--with an almost identical
    photograph of Satan in the smoke plumes.

    -- Mike

    Mike,
    
    I think this was the same paper which reported, with photo, that Satan's
    face appeared in the cloud formations of huricane Andrew.  I'd venture
    to guess that the same photo was used... with minor "enhancements".  By
    the way I saw a bunny and a puppy in the clouds yesterday.  I wonder
    what cosmic message I should infer from this phenomena.  :^) 
    
    What does Satan look like any way?  I'll bet he looks like a congress
    critter.  :^)
    
      Eric

    The bottom line is this; It's open season on White, Anglo-Saxon,
    Religious, Gun collecting ,tax protesters.
     Dave
    

re Note 615.63 by SCOBIE::DOWENS:


>     The bottom line is this; It's open season on White, Anglo-Saxon,
>     Religious, Gun collecting ,tax protesters.
  
        And liberals, and tax-and-spenders, and environmentalists,
        and "queers", and "welfare queens", and ...

        Bob

    I certainly don't share The Davidian's point of view in any way.
    
    But, I deplore the government's handling of the situation.  It was a
    bungle all the way through.  I believe the government could have easily
    isolated Khoresh and arrested him,  then readily handled any problems
    with illegal firearms without endangering anyone.   The government
    agencies severely overreacted.
    
    Further, it raises real concerns for me about our country's freedom of
    religion.  If the government agencies could have such fear of a group,
    what unusual religious group is exempt?
    
    For the record, I must state that I do not think the Davidians were
    persecuted because they were white or Anglo-Saxon, nor because they
    were a Christian sect.   Why would a country that still has a white,
    Christian majority specifically target their own?  I think they were
    persecuted because they were way out on the fringe.  While I don't
    condone accumulating illegal weapons, I even more strongly believe that
    all religious expression, including weird fringe groups, should be
    protected.
    
    Laura

RE:                               <<< Note 615.65 by TNPUBS::STEINHART "Back in the high life again" >>>

       
  .        Why would a country that still has a white,
  .  Christian majority specifically target their own?  I think they were
  .  persecuted because they were way out on the fringe.  While I don't
  .  condone accumulating illegal weapons, I even more strongly believe that
  .  all religious expression, including weird fringe groups, should be
  .  protected.
    
   

     Many Christians felt that Mr Koresh exemplified what is described
     in the Bible as a false prophet claiming to be Jesus Christ and that
     his teachings were contrary to Biblically based teaching.  While
     most Bible believing Christians I know considered him to be on the
     fringe, most that I am acquainted with felt that this whole thing
     was handled wrong.  I believe it was a spiritual matter and the 
     negotiations taking place should have included someone familiar 
     with cults and cult practices.

     And, as a Christian, while I believe that religious expression should
     be protected I do have a problem with the tactics used by people such
     as Mr Koresh, Jones, et al.




 Jim

>     And, as a Christian, while I believe that religious expression should
>     be protected I do have a problem with the tactics used by people such
>     as Mr Koresh, Jones, et al.

    Ya know, I'd feel a lot better if I could believe all the things
    we've all heard from the media about Mr. Koresh.  It's far too
    easy for the "authorities" to determine what we hear.

    I just can't draw any conclusions anymore.

    Tom

    >Why would a country that still has a white,
    >Christian majority specifically target their own?
    
    This statement has a connotation that I don't think was intended.

RE:             <<< Note 615.67 by THOLIN::TBAKER "DOS with Honor!" >>>
                           -< who can you believe? >-


.    Ya know, I'd feel a lot better if I could believe all the things
.    we've all heard from the media about Mr. Koresh.  It's far too
.    easy for the "authorities" to determine what we hear.


      All I needed to hear was him referring to himself as Jesus Christ..that
      did it for me.



      Again, however, I don't think the thing was handled properly.




Jim
    

    RE:  .68
    
    >Why would a country that still has a white,
    >Christian majority specifically target their own?
    
    >>This statement has a connotation that I don't think was intended.
    
    ????
    
    

    RE: .65  
    
    
    		I do have a problem with "religious freedom" threatening
    the rest of the people in that area.  There were guns that are outlawed
    and they seem to have a penchant for shooting them at odd times and in
    strange directions.  For the safty for all concerened I feel that the
    law enforcement officials.
    
    Dave

    I have no quarrel with you, Dave, but I still disagree.

    I had occasion to talk to someone from Texas a few weeks
    ago and she told me that people act differently down there.
    That the number of weapons cached there, per person, was
    not out of line with what many people have at home.
    There are shots heard all the time, day and night.

    It's not Massachusetts.  Guns are viewed differently down there.
    Shooting someone that's on your property without your permission
    is not a crime.

    Tom

    An unarmed visiting Japanese student was mistaken for a robber and shot
    dead by the owner of the house which the student had approached while
    looking for another house.  The shooter was found not guilty on all
    charges, by the way.  The best expression of this was:
    
    One person had seen too many Westerns and one person had seen too few.

    RE: .73
    
    Why doen't you take your gun control message to a more appropriate
    spot...like soapbox?
    
    Marc H.

    RE: .71

    >I do have a problem with "religious freedom" threatening
    >the rest of the people in that area.  

    Me too. But it's not clear to me that the Davidians actually posed a
    threat to their neighbors.

    >There were guns that are outlawed
    >and they seem to have a penchant for shooting them at odd times and in
    >strange directions.  For the safty for all concerened I feel that the
    >law enforcement officials.
    
    There were charges of possession of untaxed weapons. I haven't seen any
    reports that such were actually found. Have you? I have heard no
    reports of outlawed weapons BTW. Just weapons that require a Federal
    tax stamp. I haven't heard that they were actually shooting in a manner 
    that would hurt anyone.

RE: .72
    >    I had occasion to talk to someone from Texas a few weeks
    >ago and she told me that people act differently down there.

    Note that Dave is *in* Texas.

    >That the number of weapons cached there, per person, was
    >not out of line with what many people have at home.

    Also true of New Hampshire.

    RE: .73

>    An unarmed visiting Japanese student was mistaken for a robber and shot
>    dead by the owner of the house which the student had approached while
>    looking for another house.  The shooter was found not guilty on all
>    charges, by the way.  The best expression of this was:
>    
>    One person had seen too many Westerns and one person had seen too few.

    One should also note that all witnesses report that the student was
    moving towards the homeowner at a rapid rate. Also the students friends
    all agreed that he had a way of moving towards people that seemed
    aggressive. Let's not over simplify a complicated situation.

    			Alfred

    re  615:73
    
    This may be a first but I need to agree with Patrick on this one. 
    There are too many guns in the wrong hands and too many people are
    being killed by it.  The issue is a significant theological issue. 
    WHen children have easy assess to guns and begin bringing them to
    school we have a community in trouble.
    
    Patricia

    >    There are too many guns in the wrong hands and too many people are
>    being killed by it.  

    I can agree with this. The problem is to keep the guns out of the wrong
    hands without violating the rights of the right people. Sort of like
    saying there are too many pulpits in the wrong hands and too many
    people are dying or having their lives messed up because of it. The
    answer is not to ban pulpits or shut down all religions. I hope we 
    agree on that? We don't shut down the churches to stop the Jim Joneses
    and David Koreshes of the world do we?

    >The issue is a significant theological issue. 

    How so?

>    WHen children have easy assess to guns and begin bringing them to
>    school we have a community in trouble.

    That's a religious issue in that children are not being taught respect
    for themselves and each other.  I blame public schools for this in
    part. It's also an issue of TV and the media making guns look
    attractive as problem solvers. It's also the fault of parents who don't
    supervise their children, schools that protect the bad children better
    than they do the good children, and a society that rejects religion.
    Guns are a tiny symptom of a massive set of problems. Let's take care
    of the big problems first.

    			Alfred

re Note 615.77 by CVG::THOMPSON:

> >    WHen children have easy assess to guns and begin bringing them to
> >    school we have a community in trouble.
> 
>     That's a religious issue in that children are not being taught respect
>     for themselves and each other.  I blame public schools for this in
>     part. 

        I blame parents, and to a much lesser extent our society at
        large (which includes, but is not limited to, the
        entertainment media).

        By the time students get to the public schools it is far too
        late to lay the foundation for respect for themselves and
        each other.

        Bob

    RE: .72  Tom,
    
    			Yes...I do live in Lubbock Texas and yes there
    seems to be more recretional guns than you might find in the northeast
    for example.  However, that fact does not excuse killing 4 members of a
    lawful authority serving a search warrent.  
    
    			Two houses down from me lives an FBI agent and
    across the street is a local police detective and having talked to both
    of them, they report that indeed there were found weapons that are
    outlawed by our federal government.  A 50 cal. machine gun, mortor
    tubes along with ammunition, and a variety of hand grenades.  To say
    that religious freedom allows circumvention of the law is taking that
    freedom to excesses....IMHO of course.  
    
    
    Dave  

    RE:  -1
    
    Dave,
    
    I haven't heard anyone here say that if indeed the Davidians had
    illegal weapons, that that was justified by their religious views.
    
    I haven't heard anyone say, including Tom if I read him correctly, that
    the Federal authorities were wrong in trying to seize the illegal
    weapons and prosecuting people as appropriate.
    
    I have heard several people say that they were uncertain about whether
    there were indeed illegal weapons there.  You seem to have the answer.
    
    What most people are saying is that the Feds bungled the operation from
    the get-go, and that the Feds should not persecute a fringe group, no
    matter how weird or repugnant their views.
    
    Laura

    Hi Laura! :-)
    
    
    >What most people are saying is that the Feds bungled the oporation from
    >the get-go,
    
    		I agree!  For me the seige lasted about 51 days too long.
    Though I suspect you might not agree...:-)
    
    >            and that the Feds should not persecute a fringe group, no
    >matter how weird or repugnant their views.
    
    		This last part is where I am misunderstanding you.  I do
    not remember a single instance where the authorized authorities did not
    try to settle this case without physical violence.  For months before
    the ATF "stormed" that compound they had contacted Mr. Koresch several
    times to serve the search warrent.  Now if this is what you call
    persecution then you and I differ on the semantics of that word.  Are
    there other instances that I haven't heard about?  There might be as
    Texas tend to slant news one way.  The information I have given in this
    note is directly from some of the people involved to whatever extent
    and not from any news organization....I tend not to trust them. ;-)
    
    
    Dave

    re 615.77
    
    It is a theological issue because that which is good and right for
    humankind is a theological issue.
    
    Religion states that thou shall not kill.  
           Guns are used for killing
    
    The bible states thou shall love your enemy.
    
           If you love your enemy what do you need a gun for?
    
    The bible stats that if a robber takes your coat, you should give him a
    second coat.(loose translation)  That means don't fight back.
    
    The bible states that if you are struck in the cheek to turn your
    cheek, not shoot your accoster.
    
    The bible states that only those who will loose their life will gain
    life.  those who cling to life will loose it.  Nowhere does it say to
    shoot those who accost you.
    
    There is no justification for using guns to protect property.  It is
    wrong to make guns available to people who can harm others.  Innocent
    people are being hurt by guns.
    
    I am not saying that guns should be outlawed.  Guns need to be
    controlled better

    RE:  .81
    
    Hi Dave!  :-)  :-)
    
    My knowledge of the actual circumstances was provided solely by
    national media, particularly National Public Radio and the TV networks.
    So, my knowledge about what really happened is quite limited.
    
    The sense I got from all I've heard is that the Feds could have
    prevented the siege by arresting Khoresh in an unguarded moment.  That
    the group would have lost cohesion without him.  That the Feds didn't
    adequately use the services of experts familiar with fringe quasi-
    Christian cult groups in managing the siege.  That the Davidians may
    not have even had illegal weapons  (at least not so as to justify such
    harsh reactions).  That they weren't endangering anyone.  
    
    The media didn't directly state these things, but they didn't provide
    any reason to believe otherwise.
    
    I differ from one opinion I've seen expressed - that the children were
    not abused.  I saw detailed TV news about kids being beaten, locked in
    storage rooms, and publicly humiliated.  So this is my opinion about
    what really happened, whether it was true or not.
    
    Now all this may be incorrect, and it may be that the Feds really did
    the best they could.  I am simply reporting the impressions I have,
    which are shared by many people across the country.  I would be happy
    to learn more accurate details about the actual situation.
    
    If my impressions are wrong, then the Clinton administration did an
    abysmal PR job and failed to educate the American public on the truth,
    thus leaving a very bad taste in many people's mouths.
    
    Laura

    RE: .83
    
    		I just love your last paragraph...with that you and I are
    in total agreement! :-)
    
    
    Dave

    
>    Religion states that thou shall not kill.  
>           Guns are used for killing
    
    You mean killing as in hunting? None of my guns have ever killed
    anything though they are all used regularly.
    
>    The bible states thou shall love your enemy.
>    
>           If you love your enemy what do you need a gun for?
    
    Target shooting, hunting, etc.
    
    			Alfred

    Alfred,
    
    My concern about guns is in there being used to shoot people.  I would
    like to see gun control laws strict enough to make sure that unstable
    people could not get guns.
    
    Hunting is another issue which I have some concerns about but as long
    as I eat meat I cannot  make an issue of people hunting to eat what
    they kill.
    
    Target shooting is a safe sport which I think must be a lot of fun.
    
  I would like to make sure that children
    could not handle guns unless under the strict supervision of
    responsible adults.
    
    Patricia

    
>    My concern about guns is in there being used to shoot people.  I would
>    like to see gun control laws strict enough to make sure that unstable
>    people could not get guns.
    
    I would like to see voting laws strict enough to make sure that
    unstable people could not get to vote. I could probably live with laws
    that made the same procedures for getting to vote usable for buying
    guns. Of course right now it's a lot easier to get to vote.
    
    >    Target shooting is a safe sport which I think must be a lot of fun.
    
    It is. Believe me it is.
    
>  I would like to make sure that children
>    could not handle guns unless under the strict supervision of
>    responsible adults.
    
    Legally this is the case now.
    
    			Alfred

    We in Massachusetts have the "Bartley-Fox" gun law which has a mandatory 
    one year jail sentence for anyone having a gun in their possession 
    without a permit.

    No one has served yet because judges allow the law to be plea bargained 
    away.

    What good are more gun laws going to do if the ones we have now aren't
    enforced, other than put more restrictions on the law abiding citizen.

    I'm opposed to any more legislation restricting the owners ship and
    usage of firearms, until we see the laws we have in place upheld by our
    justice system.

        Jim

    
>    			Two houses down from me lives an FBI agent and
>    across the street is a local police detective and having talked to both
>    of them, they report that indeed there were found weapons that are
>    outlawed by our federal government.  A 50 cal. machine gun, mortor
>    tubes along with ammunition, and a variety of hand grenades.  To say
    
    	To date this is still the only report of outlawed guns actually
    being found in the compound. Note that 50 cal. machine guns are not 
    outlawed in the US. Also I have not read in the media that any 50 cal.
    guns of any sort were found. Nor have I read that there were mortor
    tubes or hand granades found.
    
    	As an aside, there are Usenet reports of a TV films showing the
    FBI using a flamethrower not a tear gas jet. I rate this as reliable
    as reports of outlawed weapons being found.
    
    	Also there is a movement to pass a special law keeping the report
    of the affair secret. Wonder why? I sort of doubt the tactics used will
    be used again. Unless of course killing people is now policy.
    
    			Alfred

It may be true that the illegal weapons were at a minimum.

However, I would argue that people who are willing to to shoot 
anyone in sight viewed as an enemy rather than allow a legal search 
to be conducted should be searched and watched *very* carefully.

Collis

>However, I would argue that people who are willing to to shoot 
>anyone in sight viewed as an enemy rather than allow a legal search

	I agree with you. But what has that to do with the Waco situation.
	BTW, there was a similar situation in Idaho (I think it was). The
	people the Feds raided were charged with murder. They were found
	not quilty. There is some talk about charging the Feds with murder
	and assault now.

			Alfred

>	I agree with you. But what has that to do with the Waco situation.
>	BTW, there was a similar situation in Idaho (I think it was). The
>	people the Feds raided were charged with murder. They were found
>	not quilty. There is some talk about charging the Feds with murder
>	and assault now.

    Sounds good to me...  The only thing scarier than gangs of people
    out of control is for the police to be out of control.

    It seems some folks figured this out a little more than 200 years ago.
  
    Tom

Yes, that was a sickening verdict (although perhaps the
legally correct one).

   >But what has that to do with the Waco situation.

It describes it.  A search warrant was obtained.  They
had the legal right to search the premises.  Those inside
knew this.  Their response was gunfire.

Collis

>It describes it.  A search warrant was obtained.  They
>had the legal right to search the premises.  Those inside
>knew this.  Their response was gunfire.

	Not correct in either case. In neither case was a search warrant
	presented in a normal fashion. In the Weaver case, the first warning
	the Weavers had was when Mrs Weaver was shot. Unless you normally
	assume that someone killing your wife is a Federal agent, returning
	fire seems not an unreasonable reaction.

	In the Waco case, a number or warrants had been presented in the past
	without trouble. In this case, it is unclear who started shooting.


			Alfred

I'm not very familiar with the Weaver case except to know
that they chose to refuse the authorities lawful entrance
for days and killed someone during the standoff.

I'm more familiar with Koresh.  You are quite right that a
warrant was not presented in the usual way.  I find that
totally irrelevant.  They had the warrant and demanded
access.  The response was shooting (according to the agents
there).  It is, of course, your right to not believe them.

In any case, we have a responsibility to submit to authority
even when that authority is wrong (except in very limited
circumstances).  Shooting the authority because you disagree
certainly does not qualify in my mind (nor in the minds of
the authorities :-) ) as an appropriate response to authority.

Collis

>In any case, we have a responsibility to submit to authority
>even when that authority is wrong (except in very limited
>circumstances).  Shooting the authority because you disagree
>certainly does not qualify in my mind (nor in the minds of
>the authorities :-) ) as an appropriate response to authority.

    You may now bow to Queen Elizabeth, the rightful heir to
    North America.

    Tom

Wasn't the monarchy established (illegally) by force?

   How far back do you want to go?

   Anyway, my point is that Jesus was no friend to "authority".
   He would befriend the people but wouldn't support some of
   their concerns.  He got the folks at the temple pretty 
   ticked off, didn't he?

   His folks also bucked authority.  They didn't submit to 
   Herod's call to have all infants slain.

   Tom

re Note 615.95 by TLE::COLLIS::JACKSON:

> In any case, we have a responsibility to submit to authority
> even when that authority is wrong (except in very limited
> circumstances).  

        In Koresh's case I suspect he believed that he was in one of
        those "very limited circumstances".

        Bob

  >Anyway, my point is that Jesus was no friend to "authority".

A man that fulfilled the law in every aspect and the only
accusation that could be found against him was blasphemy
(an inaccurate accusation since he only claimed the truth)
and "working" on the Sabbath by healing - a man-made definition
of works.

I do indeed find it interesting that you believe Jesus was
no friend to authority.

Collis

>I do indeed find it interesting that you believe Jesus was
>no friend to authority.

    Well, they crucified Him, didn't they?

    Yer friend....    :-) :-) :-) :-)
    Tom

  >Well, they crucified Him, didn't they?

He didn't resist, did he?

:-) :-)

    Of course Jesus resisted the authority of the Temple priests who had
    allowed money changers to work in the Temple. Of is making a whip and
    chasing people considered submission?

    			Alfred

    Jesus didn't resist arrest.  However, he was occasionally less than
    cooperative, was he not?
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

Indeed, there are a few examples (such as in the temple)
where Jesus showed his allegiance to a higher authority
(and clearly acknowledged that).

Here was a person who submitted to authority at all levels
recognizing that sometimes different levels of authority
differed in what they demanded at which times he followed
the higher authority.

The problem that the Jewish leaders had with Jesus was not
based on his rejection of authority.  The problem was their
pride, arrogance and self-serving definitions of "godly"
people which Jesus challanged.

Collis

re Note 615.105 by TLE::COLLIS::JACKSON:

> The problem that the Jewish leaders had with Jesus was not
> based on his rejection of authority.  The problem was their
> pride, arrogance and self-serving definitions of "godly"
> people which Jesus challanged.
  
        Of course, Collis.  One should never reject an authority just
        because it is an authority.  One should reject an authority
        when it is wrong, however, as Jesus did.

        Does "accepting authority" mean accepting it even when is
        wrong, or can one accept authority AND reject it in those
        cases in which it is wrong?

        What I learn from the conflict between Jesus and the Jewish
        leaders of his day is that all earthly authorities are
        fallible and may be wrong in some or many ways.  I do not
        learn that earthly authorities should simply be disregarded
        in their entirety.

        The principle is "question authority" but NOT "reject
        authority" or "ignore authority".

        Bob

I agree, Bob

The solution at Waco was a military solution.

Capital punishment is a military solution.

One of America's most deep-seated problems is the mindset of eradicating
troublesome issues with military solutions.

Richard

    
    Acutally Richard, this:
    
    > One of America's most deep-seated problems is the mindset of eradicating
    > troublesome issues with military solutions.
    
    is only a result of the problem.  The problem is we've stopped dealing
    with the heart of children.  We used to teach kids right and wrong in our
    schools.  We used to teach them morals.  Now because of our nation's 
    rejection of the values that God teaches us, we simply expect kids to 
    do the right thing without any training and then punish them and the 
    adults they turn into for not doing it.  Now I do believe the knowledge 
    of right and wrong is intrinsically placed in us by God, but if the 
    whole world around you is telling you that something else is right,
    chances are you won't stand a chance unless somebody personally impacts 
    your life.  In the case of Waco, someone crossed those people's paths 
    that took them even faster down the wrong road.  
    
    Jill

    (.109 KINSELLA)
    
    There may be some validity to what you're saying.  However, it has
    no connection to what I was talking about, unless you're talking about
    the way those who were in charge of the BATF, the FBI and officials
    of the Justice Department were raised.
    
    If Koresh was violating firearm laws, there were several less-dramatic,
    less-deadlier ways to handle the situation than to create a military
    style war zone.   I was talking about how the government handled the
    situation, not how the Davidians handled the situation.
    
    Richard

1170.0 reminded me of the edition of PBS's Frontline I saw a few
weeks ago.

It was a review of the events at Waco with the advantage of hindsight
and the luxury of unhurriedly pouring over reams of tapes and documents.

Not a whole lot of new information came out of it:

The HRT (Hostage Rescue Team), sometimes referred to as "Ninjas,"
considered the negotiation team "wimps" and worse.

Evidentally someone did tell Janet Reno that the children were being abused,
a deception calculated to pressure the her into approving the use of gas.

The video tapes made of Koresh with his children were used for intelligence
gathering.  (Example: Since the children had clean hair, it was evidence that
there was no shortage of water in the compound.)

Richard