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Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Title:Discussions from a Christian Perspective
Notice:Prostitutes and tax collectors welcome!
Moderator:CSC32::J_CHRISTIE
Created:Mon Sep 17 1990
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1362
Total number of notes:61362

612.0. "Pope Joan" by GLITTR::BROOKS () Tue Mar 02 1993 11:45

Recently I came across a poem called "Pope Joan" in a book by a
contemporary poet. Apparently there is some evidence that there was a
female pope, Pope Joan, in the ninth century. Does anyone know about this
story? 

The following is a footnote to the poem:

"Pope Joan, according to most sources, began her career as an ecclesiastic 
scribe. She joined a Benedictine monastery at the insistence of her first 
lover and later moved to Athens and Rome, where, still disguised as a man, 
she became cardinal and then, in 856, pope. She was stoned to death in 858, 
after giving birth during a papal procession."

	-- Enid Shomer, from her book of poems This Close to the Earth 
	(1992). Shomer cites a book, Pope Joan, by Emmanuel Royidis, 
	translated by Lawrence Durell. 

Thanks,

Dorian
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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612.1UHUH::REINKEFormerly FlahertyTue Mar 02 1993 12:144
Wow, Dorian, that's amazing.  I'd never heard of Pope Joan before, 
but would also be interested in learning more.

Ro
612.2evidence but not strong evidenceCVG::THOMPSONRadical CentralistTue Mar 02 1993 12:4110
    A story I've heard a number of times. If true, it happened during
    a particularly turbulent time for the Roman church. Church historians
    claim it's not true last I heard. (But they would the skeptics say. :-))

    Stranger things have happened but it makes better myth than history.
    The story does come up regularly in discussions involving feminist
    women arguing for more (or different) involvement for women in church
    governance.

    		Alfred
612.3HURON::MYERSTue Mar 02 1993 13:5713
    For what it's worth, my source shows Benedict III (the alleged Joan
    was a Benedictine) as reigning from 855 to 858.  Benedict was followed
    by St. Nicholas I (the great), from 858 to 867.

    Potentially offensive material to follow...
    

    Personally, I think this myth was started because Benedict was a bit
    "light in the loafers", so to say.  I fringe group at the time tried to
    cover up the fact that Benedict had a propensity to sing show tunes at
    the most in appropriate times by spreading a rumor that Benedict was
    really "Joan", a woman living incognito as a Benedictine monk.  The
    official record, however, chose to gloss over the entire affair.
612.4SDSVAX::SWEENEYPatrick Sweeney in New YorkWed Mar 03 1993 02:2319
    re: .0 "Pope Joan" by Emmanuel Royidis, trans. by Lawrence Durrell.
    I'm interested in seeing what sources Royidis used.

    re: .2 What evidence do you have that there is truth to this myth?
    858 AD was not a time of turbulence for the Church but a time of
    ascendancy as the Holy Roman Empire had been founded but 58 years
    earlier and there was a great deal of cooperation between the Pope and
    the Emperor.

    re: .3 Not only is this not the truth, but it isn't even the correct
    expression of the myth.  First of all it was Pope St. Leo IV who was
    a Benedictine monk, not Benedict III.  Next according to the myth, it
    was a Pope elected as "John" who was discovered to be a woman, hence the
    appellation "Joan".

    There is no contemporaneous record of such a Pope.  The papal election
    of 858 is also an especially poor setting for such a myth as the
    contemporaneous records of that period are complete and can't
    reconciled with the myths of several centuries later.
612.5HURON::MYERSWed Mar 03 1993 11:5018
    re .3

    In the first half of my .3 I was suggesting that the myth of Joan being
    a Benedictine may have been a corruption of fact that "Benedict" was
    the name of the Pope during which time Joan was alleged to have reigned
    (856-?).  I can see, however, that my poor sentence construction could
    lead to ambiguous interpretation.  I believe that the papal names and
    reigning date are correct as listed.

    I regret that I omitted adding 53 requisite "smiley faces" (i.e. :^) ) 
    to the latter half of my .3.  I should have been aware by now that
    humor is not always smiled upon (Get it!   Humor... smiled upon..? 
    That's called a pun.)  Let me say, for the record, that I know nothing
    of the Pope Joan myth; nor do I care.  I was only engaging in a little
    impish jesting...

    	Eric

612.6LGP30::FLEISCHERwithout vision the people perish (381-0899 ZKO2-2/T63)Wed Mar 03 1993 12:3810
re Note 612.5 by HURON::MYERS:

>     Let me say, for the record, that I know nothing
>     of the Pope Joan myth; nor do I care.  I was only engaging in a little
>     impish jesting...
  
        There are certain subjects about which one might wish to show
        greater delicacy in one's humor.

        Bob