Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    These are the ones which immediately come to mind:
    
    	Edify
    
    	Minions
    
    	The strong man (meaning Satan)
    
    

    witness (in the sense of supporting one's belief in word or action)
    
    discernment (sort of a mix of detecting and learning)

    Kindly edify us ;-) on the meanings of words as you use them.
    
    My dictionary shows:
    
    edify  To instruct or enlighten so as to encourage intellectual, moral,
    or spiritual improvement.  [From the Latin to build - see EDIFICE.]
    
    minion 1.  One who is esteemed or favored. 2. a.  An obsequious
    follower or dependent; sycophant. b.  A subordinate official. [From
    French mignon, darling.]
    
    L
    
    

        "Fellowship", for some reason I can't explain, has always
        been a pet peeve (the word, not what I think is the concept).

        Bob

    Fellowship is something in between "community" and "friend".

    A fellow is like a comrade.

re Note 538.5 by SDSVAX::SWEENEY:

>     Fellowship is something in between "community" and "friend".
> 
>     A fellow is like a comrade.
  
        Ah, but Pat, you aren't using it in the sense that always
        struck me strange, e.g., "after the service we will all meet
        downstairs for a time of fellowship", i.e., it's something a
        group of Christians do when they're together.

        I have been in a lot of religious, civic, and social groups
        all my life, but until I fell into evangelical circles, I
        never met people who "fellowshipped".

        Bob

    
    Bob,
    
    In the churches that I have attended where the term is used it has had
    slightly different meanings but overall the same.  In the Southern
    Baptist Church the term meant socializing more or less with each other. 
    In other churches I attended the term included socializing but had a
    spiritual emphasis and a true exchange of meaningful and spiritual
    discussion, teaching, edification (oops), exhortation, prayer, etc.
    between brothers and sisters in Christ.
    
    jeff

    "Fellowship" is a term like pornography....I can't describe it,
    but I sure know it when I see it!
    
     In my former church, it didn't exist for me. In my present church,
    the "fellowship" is real and exists in and outside of church.
    I like the term.
    
    Marc H.

    American Heritage shows discern as follows:
    
    discern To perceive (something obscure or conceladed); detect. 
    2. To recognize or comprehend mentally.  3.  To perceive as separate
    and distinct:  discriminate. [From Latin discernere:  dis-, apart +
    cernere, to preceive]
    
    So Mr. Sweeney's "mix of detecting and learning" is very close in
    meaning.
    
    What are the shades of meaning that make this a popular Christian term?
    How are these words used differently than the dictionary definition?
    
    L
    

    One learns from a teacher or from an experiment and the five senses.
    
    One detects using facts and reason.  The word "discern" has a
    philosophical shade of meaning.

    
    There is a "gift of discernment" identified in the New Testament.  This
    particular gift includes the ability to discern between good and evil
    (spirits).
    
    jeff

    RE: .10 & .11  Mr. Sweeney and Jeff,
    
    
    		Word studies are fun and particularly interesting with the
    word "to descern".  The dictionary agrees with the Greek and Hebrew
    meaning in this case and says "to discover or gain knowledge of".   It
    really doesn't have anything to do with "doing anything" with it...just
    get this knowledge.  I have found myself and seen it in others where
    they use it interchangably with judgement.  
    
    
    Dave 

    
    Hi Dave,
    
    I believe that discerning would normally precede judging.
    
    jeff

    Contemporary English usage of "detect" and "discover" are used with
    reference to observation and fact.  Moral and theological processes may
    have shared the same word with empirical processes in other languages,
    but in English the distinction is significant.

    RE: .13  Jeff,
    
    >I believe that descerning would normally precede judging.
    
    		Yes, except the Christian is told not to judge.
    
    
    Dave

    
    Dave,
    
    You're absolutely wrong Dave.  Read your Bible and not just the parts
    that appeal to you, please.
    
    jeff

re: Note 538.6 by Bob "without vision the people perish 

>        I have been in a lot of religious, civic, and social groups
>        all my life, but until I fell into evangelical circles, I
>        never met people who "fellowshipped".

Of course these days, all nouns may be verbed.

.-)

Jim

    RE: Jeff,
    
    		Alright Jeff.  Prove it to me.  State the verses and make
    sure that you do the word studies.  
    
    
    Dave

|                <<< Note 538.17 by TFH::KIRK "a simple song" >>>
|               -< "I'll interface with you off-line on that..." >-
|
|re: Note 538.6 by Bob "without vision the people perish 
|
|>        I have been in a lot of religious, civic, and social groups
|>        all my life, but until I fell into evangelical circles, I
|>        never met people who "fellowshipped".
|
|Of course these days, all nouns may be verbed.
|
|.-)
|
|Jim

    
    How true!  We "fellowship" at church and our new organization at DEC is 
    "goaled!"  (And *we're* supposed to be a communications organization!)
    
    Sigh...
    

   Pax Roma

   Translation, latin,  Roman Peace.

   From about the 3rd century BC to the 6th century AD Roman ruled the
   known world.  It was not always a beneign rule as the enforcement agency
   was the Roman army and their ability to reach any part of their world
   quickly to quell disputes.  They were largely omnipotent in settling
   disputed between the smaller nations that composed the empire.

   Pax Roma is the term for peace obtained and enforced by a higher
   power outside of self and anwerable to athority.

   Peace,
   Allison

In article <538.18-921020-160308@valuing_diffs.christian-perspective>, dawson@dpdmai.enet.dec.com (t/hs+ws=Formula for the future) writes:
>    RE: Jeff,
>    
>    		Alright Jeff.  Prove it to me.  State the verses and make
>    sure that you do the word studies.  
>    
>    
>    Dave

Dave,
	I'm not sure I want to get in between you and Jeff 8-), but 
I Cor 5:13,14 (and in fact all of chapter 5), indicate a situation in
which Christians are told to judge.  Do you feel that this passage
is not about judging?

--
---
Paul		ferwerda@loptsn.zko.dec.com
Gordon		ferwerda@clt.enet.dec.com
Loptson		clt::ferwerda
Ferwerda	Tel (603) 881 2221



			

[posted by Notes-News gateway]

    RE: .21  Paul,
    
    			Hi!  Its good to see you here.  Actually Jeff and I
    have a lot more in common than he believes so its not a matter of
    getting between.  Its my hope that Christians can raise above these
    kinds of petty issues and concentrate of the *real* issue of Jesus.
    
    			Its been awhile since I have been thru the studies
    on Judgement but I seem to remember that the word used there, while
    translated 'Judgement', is better understood as desernment.   And that
    makes perfect sense when we take the Bible as a whole.  The instances
    of education within the Bible, in almost every case, is pointed at the
    individual and not at society as a whole.  This is the reason why Jesus
    said what he did about the "mote in your eye" statement.  Its *VERY*
    important to allow God his judgement and for ourselves to concentrate
    of the real problem of sharing about jesus.
    
    Dave

    Since you mentioned it, it is Pax Romana, not Pax Roma.  The
    distinction between "Rome" and "Roman" is part of the Latin language

   Patrick,

   Thanks,  The original explanation was given to me 25 years ago
   as Italian.  Roma is Italian rather than the latin for the same 
   meaning if memory serves me right.

   Peace,
   Allison

Here one you don't hear much outside of Christian circles:

	Anoint, anointing, anointed

	Means to touch with oil, or as with oil.  The word Christ is from the
Greek meaning the Anointed One.

Peace,
Richard

>    Evangelical
>    
>    from the Hebrew:  ev, meaning "good news," and angel, meaning "messenger."
>    Hence, in the original sense, a messenger of good news.

Evangelical

from the greek, euangelikos: euangelion + ikos: (eu + angelion) ikos

		= (good + message) of or relating to

thus, of, relating to, or in agreement with the gospel.

Gospel:  from the English, good + spell = good news.

/john

    RE: .27
    
    Thanks for the info in the note. Was the "crack" in the title needed?
    
    Marc H.

Is it possible that the Greek work was a derivative of the Hebrew word?

				-- Bob

Compare the etymology Richard presented -- from whatever source, with the
correct etymology I presented.

Greek "eu" is just "good", not "good news".  Think of other greek-derived
words in English that begin this way, such as eulogy, euthanasia, etc.
Please don't suggest ridiculous ones that have different derivations.

The "news" gets in there from "angelion", which is that which a messenger
("angel") brings.

I have removed the gentle dig in the title of my original reply, since it
would, in accordance with directions in the Bible, have been better to
have delivered it privately.

/john

    I have deleted note .29.
    
    -- Mike

Assuming that Richard didn't just make up the Hebrew roots (and I don't
see why he'd do that), the Hebrew and Greek look very similar.  Maybe
there was a cross-cultural influence (e.g. one language could have borrowed
words from the other, or both borrowed words from third language).

				-- Bob

If someone would like to find out what "ev" means in Hebrew, if anything,
rather than just defend someone who is wrong...

Oh, I just remembered, it's P-C these days to defend wrong answers...

/john

    RE: .34
    
    No....it isn't a case of P-C, just good manners.
    
    But you knew that.
    
    Marc H.

    
    		What a wonderful, positive attitude you have.  Must be hard
    living a life so filled with negatives.  
    
    Dave

<<Oh, I just remembered, it's P-C these days to defend wrong answers...

No, /john, not P-C, perhaps just a C-P to give someone the benefit of 
the doubt or to trust that they have a source or valid reason for 
their answer.  

Does it make you feel good to always be 'right'?  Is that why you note 
here?  Is it because here is a place where everyone is wrong and you 
can feel right (ie, superior)?  I'm not implying that I want you to go 
away, but I would like to see you remove that chip from your shoulder 
(or mote from your eye) and see that we are all God's children, just 
like you.  You talk about unity and Oneness, yet all you seem to show 
to your 'fellow'noters is separateness.

In peace and love to you,

Ro

>    No....it isn't a case of P-C, just good manners.

How is it good manners to argue from a position of ignorance in favor
of someone who has made a mistake?

I think it would have been good manners to have just been quiet about
Richard, and not say that you can't imagine what motive he might have
had for making up phony Hebrew.

At least I had the manners to suggest that he might have had no particular
motivation at all, but to have merely had a poor source.

/john

    RE: .38
    
    Once again /john, its the ~way~ you go at it...but....enough. Things
    just will not change.
    
    Marc H.

    More criticism is directed at people in the conference who have their
    facts correct than people who have their facts wrong.  It's a matter
    of style I suppose.

John,

As long as you've got the book (I'm guessing), how about sharing the meanings
of these two terms?

	Pentecostal

	Charisma

I have a pretty good idea of their definitions and roots, but I know you'll
be far more accurate and thorough than I'd be.

Peace,
Richard

Pentecost is from Gk pentecoste, fiftieth day.  For Christians, of course,
there was an extremely important event on the fiftieth day counting from
the day of the Resurrection -- Whitsunday.

Add the suffix -al to produce something relating to the event of the day.

Certain sects use this term to describe themselves if their practices
involve revivalistic methods involving the generation of extreme
emotionalism within the congregation comparable to the experience of
the disciples with the Holy Spirit on the first Pentecost.

/john

Charisma is a Greek word meaning "favor" or "gift".  It is related to the
Greek word "charis" which means "grace".

Thus it refers to a spiritual gift granted by God.  It is exemplified
in the early Christians and today by the power to heal, the gift of
tongues, or the gift of prophesy.

/john

    I have deleted .26.  I have little doubt that it was inaccurate.  I was
    relating it from memory.  I regret that it was not entirely right, and
    probably, according to some people's standards, not even close.
    
    I make no defense, as has been suggested would be the politically
    correct thing for me to do.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

re: Note 538.43 by /john 

>Pentecost is from Gk pentecoste, fiftieth day.  For Christians, of course,
>there was an extremely important event on the fiftieth day counting from
>the day of the Resurrection -- Whitsunday.

Is there any significance that 50 is one more than 49 days, 7 weeks, 7x7?

In the book of Revelation I've seen many numerological nuances obliterated by
converting original units to English or metric.  (The dimensions of the New 
Jerusalem, for example.)  Certain numbers had great significance and were 
often quite idiomatic.  7 and 12 were important, and to square a number or 
multiply it by a power of 10 was to add even more to its significance, as 
Jesus did when he exhorted his followers to forgive "seven times seventy" 
times.  Or the population of the saints as 144,000 (12x12x1000) in the 
Revelation.  And I've been told in a Bible study group that "40 days" was 
not literal, but an idiom for "a long time", similar to the expressions "a 
year and a day" or "a month of Sundays".

Peace,

Jim

The following is verbatim from the supplement section entitled "Theological
Glossary" in the back of a Bible published by the American Bible Society:

abba  An Aramaic word, an affectionate term of endearment used by children
  to their father.  It was used by Jesus to his Father, and became for
  Christians a guarantee, almost a talisman, of their close relationship
  with the Father as children of God.  Mark 14:36; Rm 8:15; Ga 4:6.

As I recall, the people of India had such a term for Gandhi.

Peace,
Richard

    
    I like to think of the term Abba as the predecessor to Daddy.
    At least I believe the same kind of affectin was attached to it.
    
    Jill

    For an explanation of Maundy Thursday, see Note 571.99
    
    Richard

/john's note is correct.  A little more info about the rather strange word 
"Maundy"...it is, as /john said, from the word "commandment".  Imagine the 
word spoken with a strong British accent, then abbreviate it to the middle 
syllable, and you have "maundy".

Word from my choir director,

Jim

    Exegesis; see Note 595
    
    Richard
    

    What does "validate" mean when people use the word in this conference?

Well Patrick, since I used it here in a recent reply, I'll explain 
what it means to me.  It means that others are confirming for me that 
they have had the same or similar experiences in their lives, that 
feelings or 'knowings' were also held by other women, that I wasn't 
alone or unique or different.  I first heard it used in this context
when I attended a Stone Center lecture here at ZK a few years ago.  It 
was a big 'ah-huh' for me!  It is an incredible gift women (and men) 
can offer to each other.

Ro

    I'm pretty sure it has something to do with parking... :^)

    >    What does "validate" mean when people use the word in this
    >    conference?
    
    The same thing it means when people use the word outside this
    conference.
    
    We're actually more catholic (universal) than we're given credit for
    being.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    No, Richard, it's an ambiguous word, which I why I asked.
    
    In one sense it means "to acknowledge" and in another sense it means
    "to declare legal".
    
    Pat

    .52 and .53 reflect two facets of the term.
    
    My take varies a bit from both.  To me, to validate means to affirm,
    which goes farther (and is less cerebral) than mere acknowledgment.
    
    Every noter will have a variation.  Just like real life.
    
    Richard
    

    To me, validation doesn't imply agreement.  It is an acceptance that 
    whatever beliefs I espouse are mine and valid for me (not necessarily
    for you).  In a conversation in Notes, for instance, if I were to offer
    my belief about "X" and your response was..."I understand that you
    believe that and I believe "Y"...that would be a validation.  If,
    however, you said, "You're wrong!  "Y" is the truth" that would
    invalidate my beliefs.
    
    Am I making this clear?
    
    Nanci   

    What are you trying to say, Nanci??
    
    ;-}
    
    Richard

    .57
    
    That's how I see it too, Nanci...
    
    In notes communications "validation" as a term is most often used to
    mean acknowledgement that a different perspective a) exists and b) has
    a right to exist.
    
    Daniel

    What perspective don't have the right to exist in your view, Dan?
    
    Pat

    My personal line is "an it harm none, do as ye will."
    
    And that includes perspectives that I find, personally, repugnant as
    well.  They have the right to exist in my view as long as they are not
    used as the rationale for causing harm.
    
    You may draw your line at a different place.  That's fine because like
    other perspectives, yours has the right to exist.
    
    Daniel

    Rebuke:  Rarely used outside religious circles.  It's what you do
    again after the initial buke.
    
    ;-)
    
    Richard
    

    Nancy,
    
    	Mark's brief explanation (91.3055) is sufficient.
    
    	Deuterocanonicals means something like "second canon."
    
    	I have heard that at the time of the canonization of the New
    Testament (in AD, 300 something), there were in the ballpark of 27
    gospel accounts in circulation.
    
    	There were basically two factors for inclusion of Scripture in
    the New Testament canon, as my occasionally faulty memory recalls:
    
    A. Was the writing non-heretical?
    
    B. Could the writing be associated with an apostle?
    
    	If New Testament Scripture didn't clear these 2 hurdles, it was
    disqualified from the canon, and that determination was made by men.
        
    Peace,
    Richard

Atheism. The opinion that there is no God. The chief grounds on
which this is asserted are: the extent of disorder, chance, and
evil in the universe as known by science and by honest
experience; the impossibility of knowing anything beyond space
and time, such as God (see AGNOSTICISM); the failure of
believers' (mutually conflicting) attempts to claim that God has
been revealed and can be spoken about reasonably (see THEISM);
the substitution of religious belief in illusory consolations for
activity in the struggle for a better society (see MARXISM). The
chief problems confronting atheism are man's wonder at the
existence of good (see MYSTICISM), and the need which many people
feel for faith and a supernatural consolation in order to endure
(see RELIGION). See also HUMANISM, SECULARISM.

Bibl. J. Monod, Chance and Necessity (London and New York, 1972);
J.L. Mackie, The Miracle of Theism (Oxford, 1982)

quoted without permission from "The Fontana Dictionary of Modern
Thought", Bullock/Stallybrass/Trombley, 2nd edition, Fontana Press, 
London, UK, 1988

Buddhism. The RELIGION, covering much of Asia, which venerates
Gautama the Buddha (or 'Enlightened'), who taught in India during
the 5th century B.C. Its goal is 'Nirvana' or liberation from
'becoming' things or selves; this has usually been conceived as
liberation from an endless cycle of reincarnations or rebirths in
different bodies. Its self-discipline is aimed at achieving
detachment and an inward peace, and in the end ENLIGHTENMENT. It
emphasizes compassion, but mainly in the sense of spreading such
peace. It avoids the intellectualism of Christian THEOLOGY, and
being a practical offer of enlightenment rather than a system of
METAPHYSICS it can be regarded as compatible both with a
scientific world view excluding belief in God and with a
religious tradition. Indeed, disagreements have grown between the
Theravada (Little Vehicle) in Ceylon, Burma, Thailand etc., and
the Mahayana (Great Vehicle) in Japan, Korea, China, Tibet, and
Nepal, which is more elaborately developed (and closer to
Christianity, although very little influenced by it). The
difference between these two types of Buddhism can amount, in
Western terms, to the difference between AGNOSTICISM or PANTHEISM
and a THEISM based on belief in divine 'grace' and therefore in
the value of petitionary prayer. But the attractiveness of
Buddhism to many onlookers in the 20th century springs from the
hope that its methods of meditation may fill the void left both
by materialism and by the Churches. ZEN is specially respected.
There is also much interest in Buddhist art. Some Westerners have
become Buddhists, but many more have admired, and even envied,
Buddhism as a way of life. In traditionally Buddhist countries
such as Sri Lanka, Thailand and Burma, everyday life is still
profoundly influenced by the teaching and example of the monks.
Seel also TANTRA.


Bibl. T.C. Humphreys, Buddhism (Harmondsworth, 1951); M. Spiro
Buddhism and Society (London and New York, 1980); N.W. Ross,
Buddhism: A Way of Life (London and New York, 1981).

quoted without permission from "The Fontana Dictionary of Modern
Thought", Bullock/Stallybrass/Trombley, 2nd edition, Fontana Press, 
London, UK, 1988

.64 DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what U have"
 Title:  atheism

>>Atheism. The opinion that there is no God. The chief grounds on
>>which this is asserted are: the extent of disorder, chance, and
>>evil in the universe as known by science and by honest

I don't know if there is a discussion note for this topic...

This strikes me as a believers view of atheism. As such, it seems slightly
slanted to me. My definition would be:

The opinion that there are no facts to support the existence of God as described
by <insert religion here>.

Steve

re .-1

the dictionary definition lists several grounds for atheism, which can be 
mutually exclusive, namely
- the agnostic and the scienctific view
- the mutually conflicting theologies
- the marxist postulate of paradise on earth

>My definition would be:
>
>The opinion that there are no facts to support the existence of God as 
>described by <insert religion here>.

isn't your definition equivalent to

"the impossibility of knowing anything beyond space and time, such as God"

since the knowledge referred to here is factual knowledge.

how could there ever be factual knowledge of god if god does not exist 
physically somewhere in the universe?


andreas.

.67 DECALP::GUTZWILLER "happiness- U want what U have"
 Title:  how does god become a fact?

>>isn't your definition equivalent to

>>"the impossibility of knowing anything beyond space and time, such as God"

No, although I would accept "the impossibility of knowing anything beyond space
and time"

You can postulate any number of imaginary or non-provable things. I operate from
the basis of demonstrable facts, or theories that explain observable facts. In
the cases where I cannot explain what is observed, I simply categorize it as
'unknown'. Anything that has no observalbe proof, or that does not explain
observable facts fits in the same mold as Santa Claus, or the Invisible Pink
Unicorn.

"Like most religions, that of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is a blend of faith and
knowledge. We *know* that she is invisible because we cannot see her, but we
must accept on faith that she is pink".

Steve

The first five books of the Hebrew Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus,
Numbers, and Deuteronomy, are a unit called TORAH, a word that is often
translated "law," but is more accurately understood as "instruction" or
"teaching."

Shalom,
Richard

The TALMUD is the basis of religious authority for Judaism.  Consisting
of two parts, the MISHNA (code of law) and GEMARA (record of rabbinic
discussions and interpretation of the law), the TALMUD was most important
factor in unifying Judaism after the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.
Much of the oral tradition debated about in Jesus' time was later recorded
in the TALMUD.

There are two versions of the TALMUD.  The largest is the Babylonian Talmud,
produced by the academies in Babylon between AD 400-500; the other is the
Jerusalem or Palestinian Talmud, produced by the academies of Palestine
about one hundred years earlier.

Shalom,
Richard

PENTATEUCH:  Penta (meaning "five") + teuch (meaning "books" or "scrolls"),
hence, "the five scrolls."  The Scriptural unit comprised of the first
five books of the Hebrew Bible.  See Torah, 538.69.

Shalom,
Richard

would anyone care to shed some light on the terms "freshman", "sof[t]more"(sp) 
for the benefit of the american-english-challenged? :-)

these are hardly christian terms i know. but i have seen them used a few 
times now. and my dictionary only says that freshman is a fox. i know that 
the terms have something to do with the year at college or university, but 
which year and which is/are the other terms? my guess so far is that 
freshman is the first year?

thanks in advance for any and all info! 


andreas.

    	Freshman -- first year
    	Sophomore -- 2nd year
    	Junior -- 3rd
    	Senior -- 4th

    Oblate -- [root: offer or thrust forward]
    
    adjective  Dedicated to religious or monastic life.
    
    noun  A person dedicated to religious or monastic life.