Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Dot and I haven't been to "our" church since the Sunday after Easter. 
    Now you might think that's a little strange, and maybe it just is, that
    one heading toward being a minister finds it intolerable within one's
    own church setting.  Dot and I study scripture almost every day and are
    on a one-year tract going through what we think is a rather hilarious
    version of the bible.  We're thankful that we've got a better grip on
    the word than this particular "interpretation", ie. not a translation. 
    We've also attended other distant churches and are in the process of
    circulation of our profiles.
    
    But, back to the point.  I feel so strongly that the "new" minister of
    our church has so completely hosed the congregation that I cannot be in
    the sanctuary listening to his spiritual guidance.  I feel betrayed by
    him as he is one who became the minister thru what I call foul play. 
    You see, he was the interim minister who contractually signed a
    statement that he would not be a candidate for the position of minister
    as a condition for his being the interim.
    
    Nobody in the congregation that I know of seems to have an inkling of
    hosed they have been.  I, except for Dot, stand alone.  I am
    psychologically blocked, unable to move, out of this frozen terrible
    state of mind.  I know that I should love all, that I am called by the
    Christ to do no less than that, yet I must admit that all I feel is
    hatred for this person.
    
    When Dot and I are ordained and if we are to follow the typical pattern
    during the ordination ceremony, we will be ordained at our current
    church and under the placing of the hand which includes the new
    minister.
    
    How am I to attend our church, to mix with the people of the church and
    to be honest when asked about how great it is to have a new minister? 
    Typically, in our denomination and with our ecclesiastical standing, we
    would go to our conference minist4er for advice and support - to the
    minister of ministers as they are known.  In our case, the conference
    minister wholly endorsed this action.
    
    God forgive me and help me some way to move thru this mess.
    
    	Wishing Shalom to Dot and myself and to you,
    
    	Ron
    

    Ron,
    
    	I'm certain that .1 was not an easy thing to talk about.  I appreciate
    your unswerving honesty in your self-examination.  Naturally, I'm not
    inclined to be as critical as you are of yourself, though.
    
    	May God be with you in your struggle with this difficult situation.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    I was raised to attend church every week but haven't done so in
    years. This is for a number of reasons. Primary is that I haven't
    found a church that was close enough to be active in and comfortable
    to worship in. Comfortable is as good a word as I can come up with.
    In some ways this is my fault I guess. I was spoiled as a child, being
    a preachers kid I was treated very well in church. I'm not looking for
    that sort of treatment but I'm looking for some sort of atmosphere that
    seems rare. 

    Also my father is a very good preacher. There are few preachers who
    can match his sermons. If I found a preacher as good I'd probably
    attend even if the church otherwise didn't meet all my needs. Worship
    is easy to do by ones self, though I do miss group worship, but good
    self teaching is much harder.

    Other people I've talked to over the years have a wide range of reasons
    for staying away. "The members there are hypocrites" is the one I've
    heard the most often. Also complaints that church was just a social
    place where people were judged by what they wear or drive. Not liking
    the minister is also a common reason. That not liking can range from
    the way they preach, their "social agenda", the wife working for a 
    living, to any number of other reasons both trivial and serious.

    		Alfred

    RE: .1 Obviously this is an emotional issue for you but I don't see
    this as as big a problem as you do. I understand that this person
    agreed not be be a candidate and then accepted the job permanently.
    Did circumstances change after that agreement? Where there good or
    better candidates for the job? Why does this conference minister
    endorse this action? Is he/she so easily snowed as the congregation?

    re .-1
    
    The "new" minister had his application for the position announced as
    the first item of business at the diaconate meeting that was meeting
    for the purpose of having the pastoral search committee present their
    "finalist's" credentials for the position.  The pastoral search
    committee had spent 1 1/3 years studying about 60 to 80 profiles, had
    interviewed six candidates and had unanimously selected the finalist
    who they believed to be the right person as the future minister of the
    church.
    
    Interims have a decided advantage over any candidates and it is deemed
    unfair and unethical for one to take on the interim position and then
    to grease their way into the position as minister.  This is why almost
    all churches and conferences in my denomination has the contract that
    gets signed at both levels.  According to another member of the
    pastoral search committee, he said he hadn't realized what he had
    signed and it he had known about this he probably wouldn't have taken
    on the position as interim.
    
    I have a particularly difficult problem with a person who takes such an
    advantage for personal gain over the members of the congregation.  How
    can one trust him in other areas to be honest and sensitive and caring?
    
    In a way this brings back some of the classroom discussions we had at
    seminary when studying the historical debates of the "value" of
    receiving Holy Communion during the early days of the RC Church from
    one who was deemed an "unfit" priest.  Did the people actually recive
    communion; was the baptism valid, etc..  
    
    Sitting in church this past Easter was a horrible experience for me.  I
    didn't want at all for it to be a horrible experience but for me it was
    not a "worship" service.
    
    I feel strongly about other type positions where someone is in a
    position of power over people who are in very vulnerable points in
    their lives.  I quit Prison Ministry because of the junk theology that
    was being dumped on people who would cling to anything they thought was
    "safe".
    
    Well, I do hope that the new pastor does touch the people in
    significant ways and is a source of comfort and inspiration to them.  I
    hope he laughs with them, cries with them and helps them to know that
    God loves them wherever they are and wherever they go, now and forever
    more.  God's wish for them would then be fulfilled.  Thanks be to God!
    
    	Shalom (and I think I'll go back into RO mode for awhile longer),
    
    	Ron
    

    Ron,
    
    Love and healing prayers to both you and Dot as you continue to deal
    with this situation. 
    
    Warm hugs,
    
    Ro
    

    I know a lot a very spiritual and therefore according to my definition
    deeply religious people who stay away from church because of the rigid
    application of doctrine and dogma as part of the liturgy.  The Apostles
    Creed is a big part of most Christian Churches and many people cannot
    accept it.  Some accept it symbolically and take the positive from the
    services and attend regularly. Some mask or deny there own doubts.
    Others are denied the support of the church community because of there
    own intellectual and spiritual honesty.
    
    Since my church does not meet in the summer, I have attended three
    Christian Churches in my town this summer. At the Lutheran church I
    initially felt a sense of warmth but then at communion time I read in
    the bulletin "if you accept the real presence of Jesus Christ as you
    savior please join us"  That for me caused a shift from the experiential
    nature of worship to the intellectual.  Do I meet the litmus test for
    inclusion.
    
    I am definately a Unitarian Universalist but would like to be able to
    consider the Christian Church as my extended church family.  All the
    symbols and tests of faith that act to make the individual Christian
    fellowship an exclusive group keep me away and also keep many other
    deeply spiritual people away.
    
    
    
    The point is, that many people do not attend church because of the lack
    of acceptance.  If Christianity is defined narrowly, the only option
    for many people is to stay at home.
    
    
                              Patricia
    
    
    
    

I recall several years ago my spouse inviting the woman who lived across the
street to come to church with us.  "What for?" she responded.  "Nobody's
dying.  Everybody here is pretty healthy."

Seems that she thought she needed to go to church only when there was a
crisis at hand.  Church to her was like dialing 911 to God.

Peace,
Richard

    Maybe one of the more obvious reasons why some people stay away from church
    is that church services can be a crashing bore. 
    
    Mike

    Mike (.8),
    
    Matthew Fox addresses that issue in his books/lectures.  He says with
    the hard wooden pews and kneelers, it is extremely uncomfortable as
    well as boring to sit in church for services.  He feels the church
    needs to allow people to feel their connection with the Divine through
    active participation through movement, dance, and ritual.  Having
    participated in services where this was encouraged, I agree with his
    theory.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Ro
    

   Ro, I agree.

   I attend a UU church and am a member of the choral group.  The
   congregation is very active musically.  I get a the sense of
   participation and support for my beliefs.  It amazes me that I look
   forward to Sunday morning to go out of my way to drive 40 minutes
   for a service.  

   I know why I didn't attend before, spiritual coma.  It took a
   combination of things to reawaken my inner self(thanks Dave, Nanci, ;-)),
   some of them originating here.  


   Peace,
   Allison

    re: .9
    
    Then Matthew Fox is a very bright man!  
    
    Let us wander back a couple of hundred years, or so, in American
    History when the custom was to spend hours, if not all day, in church on
    Sunday.  Must have been awful.
    
    Mike

    Well... camp meetings, revival meetings, and all-day-meetin's-with-
    dinner-on-the-ground weren't so bad!!
    
    When I was growing up and there was no TV (in my socio-economic class,
    anyway) and cards and dancing were frowned on and movies were a special
    treat, long hours at church met social and cultural needs as well as
    religious ones...
    
    Nancy

     Excuse me for nit-picking (which this is), but "people"  in  the  base
     question  is  too broad.  I presume you mean (considering the context)
     "Christians" or "professing Christians".  Certainly us  agnostics  are
     people and so it's obvious why I "stay away from church" (although I'm
     told I would find a home in most any Unitarian congregation).

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

	When I was a kid we HAD to go to church. The routine was exactly the
same every week. After the 11th grade (we made our confirmations) I didn't have
to go anymore and didn't. About 2 years later I went back and found I still
knew the routine, knew what the priest was going to say (except for the
Gospel), when the bell would be rung, what songs would be sung. I went to a
Charsmatic Church in Worcester Ma a couple of years after that and really
enjoyed it. It was lively, had people interested and you didn't have to fight
staying awake. Any church that can have the congregation participating with
emotions (and not just going through the motions) has a much better chance at
keeping the people coming back week after week AND keeping the congregations
attention span. :-)



Glen

     An interesting book that offers a  "reason",  if  you  will,  for  the
     "sameness"  of  the  mass is _Why Catholics Can't Sing_, by Thomas Day
     (Crossroad Publishing Company, publisher).

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin