Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Truth is truth.
    
    Pat Sweeney

    Truth may be truth, but one must be convinced that the speaker knows
    the truth.  Headbanging tactics, abusive actions and language, and use
    of a jargon foreign to the listener will not convince them that
    the speaker knows the truth. 
    
    In other words, the old cliche applies.  You know, the one about
    catching more flies with honey than vinegar? 
    
    And that, Patrick, is the truth.
    
    Mike 
                

    Truth may be truth, but obnoxiousness is also obnoxiousness.

    Physicists don't go parading down city streets shouting, "The
    Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Physics is the Truth!"  Yet they
    may very well be as convinced that what they believe is true as
    proselytizing Christians do about *their* beliefs.  A major difference
    is, of course, that we are talking about how one lives one's life in
    the case of religious belief, a matter that subatomic physics doesn't
    directly impinge upon.

    But there is something even more important here.  The obnoxious
    proselytizer is behaving in just that fashion precisely because their
    religion inspires them to do so; and yet the merits of their religion
    is also the message that they are seeking to convey through those very
    methods that offend so much.  So when the message and the method are
    merged, as in this case, the intended recipients of the message get the
    opposite from the positive impression that the proselytizer intends. 
    One is likely to feel that if being obnoxious and offensive is what
    this religion inspires people to become, then there is no reason to
    believe in the alleged merits of a religion that claims to transform
    people's lives for the better.

    -- Mike

   I've always had a love for simple expressions that reflect inward.

   One that comes to mind; 
      Please don't tell me the truth, I expect that.  It is however 
      better you demonstrate it so I may see it's practice, and 
      obvious applications in life.


   Peace,
   Allison

Note 483.10

>    I think bringing the word of God to people will make people want to
>    convert their lives from selfishness and self-interest to a life where
>    they will love God and love their neighbor.  Each love grows with the
>    other, not at the expense of the other.

Brother Patrick Sweeney,

	I agree with what you've said here.  But would you explain to me how
the above formula succeeds when Christianity is confrontational?

Pax vobiscum,
Richard

    You've heard of "Hate the sin, Love the sinner"

    When it comes to the dialog we have here, it's "Respect the person,
    don't respect the error."

    Jim Jones claimed to be a Christian started a religion, some, including
    myself would call it a cult.

    To the surviving members, I'd show respect, I wouldn't ridicule them or
    use their experience to get others to laugh.  I'd respect them and show
    their error.

    The Acts of the Apostles are full of examples where people are
    respected and the errors they made are discussed and corrected. The
    Apostles did more than greet each other with a cheerful "Have a Nice
    Day".  We're called to proclaim the good news, not merely be happy
    non-confrontational people.

    So "confrontation" to use your word, is a necessary step to arriving at
    the objective truth that has been revealed to us by Jesus Christ. It
    can be done without hate, anger, or ridicule of people.

    I have have no certainty that I can lead others to salvation in Jesus 
    Christ, or even get to the first step of demonstrating that an objective
    truth exists.  But I do this not for your sake but for my own
    salvation.

    Patrick, .6
    
    re: proclaiming the "good news" confrontationally 
    
    > ...I do this not for your sake but for my own salvation.
    
    This sounds little more than rationalized self-aggrandizement 
    to me Pat.  Heaven help me if I ever feel I have to use 
    some of the self-righteous confrontational tactics I've seen
    others use in order to secure my own salvation.
    
    I know Christians are "commanded" to go out and share the good news,
    but is their *salvation* dependent upon it?
    
    Karen

>    I know Christians are "commanded" to go out and share the good news,
>    but is their *salvation* dependent upon it?

Our individual salvation is dependent upon having the faith to follow Christ.

That faith brings good works (such as proclaiming the Gospel) to fruition.

All Christians are ministers of the Gospel.

Q. What is the ministry of the laity?
A. The ministry of lay persons is to represent Christ and his Church; to
   bear witness to him wherever they may be; and, according to the gifts
   given them, to carry on Christ's work of reconciliation in the world;
   and to take their place in the life, worship, and governance of the
   Church.

It is God's will that we exercise our ministry.  To follow Christ, we
must obey God's will.

/john

    What a CHRISTIAN_PERSPECTIVE this turns out to be, where one can be
    slammed for quoting Saint Paul...  (1 Co 9:23)
    
    Unless you repent, you too will all perish.
    
    Will I get criticized for saying that too?

This risen Christ said, "Feed my sheep."  It seems to me that in order to
feed the spiritually hungry, one should offer the nourishment invitationally --
not cram it down the throat.

Yes, I know I'm using this reference out of its biblical context.  Slap my
hand for that if you want.  I care not.  The point is no less valid.

Peace,
Richard

    RE .9  Mr. Sweeney,
    
    			Are you always so negative?  I think this a fair
    question in light of all you have written.  IMHO, rather than show the
    love of Christ you seem to want to "parent" it as you would to little
    children.  We are all adults and your constant slamming does nothing
    more that raise the defenses of those who hold this conference dear.
    
    			Few people (Christians) that I know are *SO*
    defensive about their beliefs. IMHO many of your comments are
    chasing honest seekers away.  For years I have had to combat the worlds
    perception that Christians are so narrow minded that all they wish to
    do is to slam the Bible in their face.  This issue brings to mind
    something my pastor said to me once....."If Christians cannot show love
    and concern for the lost, then they themselves might consider their own
    salvation."  Can you remember your life without Christ?  If you can,
    try to understand the feelings and concerns you had and then apply how
    you would have wished to have been approached about Christ.  I has
    worked for me many times.
    
    Dave

Note 493.9

>    What a CHRISTIAN_PERSPECTIVE this turns out to be, where one can be
>    slammed for quoting Saint Paul...  (1 Co 9:23)

I Corinthians 9:23  And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be
partaker thereof with [you].  (KJV)

Forgive us, Brother.  We thought you were C.S. Lewis, not Paul! %^}

Obviously you feel that you are being slammed and criticized within
the CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE conference, and such things can certainly
lead to feelings of alienation and disenchantment, can they not?

Why would anyone slam or criticize you when you have such high and holy
motives??

I can't understand it.

Perhaps someone here can provide some insight.

Pax et bonum,
Richard

    Yes, Christianity is narrow.  Not as narrow (nor as shallow) as were
    ways of the Pharisees, of course, but narrow nonetheless.  Right,
    Brother Sweeney?
    
    Pax Christi,
    Richard

    We'd don't imitate Christ by pointing our fingers at people and saying
    "You Pharisees".

    The great sin of the Pharisees was that they loved the law more than
    they loved God.

    As Mother Theresa says we're not called to be successful, we're called
    to faithfulness.

    Patrick,
    
    Me slamming you?  Hardly.  You will know it if I ever do.
    One might think I struck a chord of truth in you or something.
    
    Let me share with you why the statement of yours which I 
    highlighted in .7 concerns me:  when one conducts one's 
    "ministry" for the primary purpose of _securing one's own 
    salvation_, it then becomes extremely difficult if not 
    impossible, to see and deal with people in human terms 
    as human beings, because the "minister" has reduced them 
    to mere _commodities_ of his or her salvation. .
     
    So thank you, Brother Patrick, but I'll not be used as one of 
    the bricks you trod upon on the road to _your_ salvation.  
    
    I'll pray for you.
    
    Karen                                          

    Karen, readers can discern for themselves if "rationalized
    self-aggrandizement" (your .7) is a verbal attack of not.
    
    When I quote Saint Paul, I know I'm in "truth".
    
    I don't "see and deal with people in human terms as human beings"
    because "human terms" are inadequate.
    
    Jesus and the Apostoles "see and deal with people" in terms of their
    being children of God, loved by God, and intended by God to live
    eternally with him in Heaven.
    
    Christians are called to love God and in doing so to follow the counsel
    of Jesus to preach the Gospel to all and to feed the hungry, shelter
    the homeless.  Christians do not earn, but freely accept the great gift
    of salvation given to us by God.
              
    Only Jesus saves.  The only bricks that were even trod that formed the
    road to salvation were the ones walked by Jesus on his way to the
    Cross mocked by the people of Jerusalem.  Jesus died for the sins of
    the world.

Karen,      RE: Note 493.7 
    
>    I know Christians are "commanded" to go out and share the good news,
>    but is their *salvation* dependent upon it?

 I agree with you regarding the command to go out and preach God's word...
Acts 10:42 NWT" Also, he ordered us to preach to the people and to give a 
thorough witness that this is the One decreed by God to be judge of the
living and the dead."; 2 Tim 4:2 NWT "preach the word, be at it urgently
in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, 
with all long-suffering and [art of] teaching." see too Matt 10:27, 24:14.
Also, this is a way we can show our love of neighbor(Matt 22:39). What
better to share then the wonderful hope and promises God offers us such as
those found at Rev 21:1-4? 
 We are expected to follow God's commands so I would say, Yes, our salvation..
(I am thinking of this term as meaning a type of deliverance from destruction 
I.E.from sin and death via Jesus' ransom and preservation through the great
tribulation foretold in Revelation.).....is dependent on us preaching God's 
word ( among other things) in that it is a work we are expected to perform 
and so an aspect of God's judgment of us..James 2:14,26 "...faith without 
works is dead." God wants all to repent (2 Pet 3:9) but it's up to each of us 
to choose what course of action/kind of life, we want to lead (Deut 30:15-20).
Some will make it, some won't.. Matt 7:13,14; Rev 21:8.

 robin

    Correct me if I wrong, but no one here is objecting to anyone delivering
    the good news, but rather, to how it is delivered.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    I can only shake my head in wonderment.
    
    Mike

    re: .22
    
    >                         -< Caring validates >-
    
    Quite precisely.  And the opposite is also true.  That is, not caring
    invalidates.  
    
    Had I been dealt with by caring Church clergy members in my younger
    years, I most likely would still be a practicing member of the
    Christian religion instead of the sort of person I have become.
    
    Mike

    Mike .23,
    
    > ...not caring invalidates.
    
    How true, and for young people growing up, caring and validation is 
    critical from outside sources as it is essential in birthing and 
    nurturing one's ability to experience validation from inner sources.
    
    I don't know who you were before you left the Church, Mike, and I can't 
    say I know you well now, but I do know I kinda like a lot of things about 
    you and the way you are in this file, fwiw.  Maybe it all happened the 
    way it was supposed to.  Who knows what's going to happen from here? 
    
    :-)
    
    Karen   
         

I first heard this from Nancy Smith, I believe:

	"People don't care how much you know
				until they know how much you care."

I find this to be true over and over.  Unless one is incredibly charismatic,
one has to establish an affinity, a sense of relationship with one's hearers,
before one's words ring with authenticity.

This sense of relationship is one of the elements so lacking in the door-to-door
or the street corner style of evangelism.

Thomas wanted to see Jesus' wounds.  Jesus didn't rebuke Thomas for his
desiring this verification, though Jesus did indicate that believing without
seeing was preferable.  To Thomas those wounds of Jesus were not only proof of
identification, they were evidence of the depth and the breadth of Jesus'
caring.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that one is usually less than convincing
if one does nothing more than make sweeping pronouncements and simply leaves
the words to stand on their own merits.

Peace,
Richard

    Thank you, Karen.
    
    Mike

	I've been asked about my present 'personal name' tag:  "Are we
Ducks or what??"

	It's one of the many memorable lines from a recent Disney film
entitled "The Mighty Ducks."  Reminiscent of "Rocky," the story is about an
unlikely street hockey team comprised of kids from the slums rising to
compete against overwhelming odds in a prestigious championship.

	Emilio Estevez plays a high-powered, polished and ruthless young
lawyer who is sentenced for multiple DUI offenses to 500 hours of community
service and is assigned to serve as coach for this ragtag inner-city team.
Many clashes between team and coach take place before they get it together.
To me, one of the most powerful scenes is when Estevez, still alienated
from the team, is chewing the team out for not following his instructions:

	"I tell you to keep your heads up and you put your heads down!
I tell you to hustle and don't hustle!  Why don't you listen to me?"

	A disgruntled youth mutters, "Can you tell me one good reason
we'd *want* to listen to you?"

	And so it is with most people.  People generally don't care how
much you know, until they know how much you care.

Peace,
Richard

PS  Another great line from the movie:  Estevez as coach says,"*I'll* decide
what sucks around here!"