Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

	"When I went to college there were various evangelical groups on
campus.  For these groups, the answers given to the academic questions of
Scripture were the cornerstone for determining who was a 'true believer'.
Yet these evangelicals were quite uncomfortable with any discussion of the
Bible's call for social justice.  While they insisted on a literal
interpretation of the creation story and the resurrection, they were
quick to 'spiritualize' what the Bible says about the poor."

Darren Cushman-Wood, United Methodist ordained minister in Indiana

	"Professional evangelicalism - the evangelicalism of theologians and
politicians, publishers and broadcasters, family bookstores and Christian
radio stations - is a carefully constructed system closely tied to
capitalism and the status quo.  It is a politico-religious ideology which
has roots going back more than a century.  Professional evangelicalism
came into prominence after World War II, uniting conservative politics,
post-war capitalism, and non-essential elements of fundamentalist theology.

	"At the heart of both professional and populist evangelical
traditions is the conversion experience.  This experience - known as
'making a commitment,' being 'born again,' or 'saved' - reinforces a
privatistic world-view by personal rather than social sin.

	"One chief characteristic of evangelical Christians is their stress
on strict personal morality.  A member of our church once asked me, 'Is there
a verse in the Bible which says serving beer is a sin?'  In order to maintain
the family farm, Sheila had taken a job as a waitress in a pizza restaurant.
Her family was quoting Isaiah 5:22, 'Woe to those who are...champions at
mixing drinks.'  But her family failed to notice that the entire section
(beginning with verse five) is directed at rich landowners, indicting them
for their overindulgence and oppression of poor farmers.  No one questioned
the morality of the owners paying Sheila minimum wage with no benefits.

	"The conservative personal morality of working-class evangelicals
helps preserve them from economic ruin.  Living from paycheck to paycheck,
if you run around on your spouse or become an alcoholic, you run the risk
of losing everything.  'Obeying the rules, is the way to keep from getting
fired.

	"On the other hand, for professional evangelicals the concern for
personal morality is a form of social control.  It labels some persons
'immoral' and thus unworthy of the basic necessities of life, such as the
right to basic health care for persons with AIDS.  It steers away from
sins like underpaid workers and leveraged buyouts which destroy working-class
families by eliminating jobs."

	The foregoing quotes are excerpts from a much longer article composed
by Darren Cushman-Wood, a United Methodist ordained minister in Indiana.

    Absurdity.  Evangelical religion is *THE* only reason the British
    empire freed all slaves in its colonies, for example (including South
    Africa).  Humanitarianism has always been a hallmark of evangelical
    religion and remains so today.
    
    As a born again Christian the conservative status quo (as you call it)
    is better than the other political alternative today - rule by special
    interest groups.  If you reduce all human thought and action to
    politics, only strife, confusion and cyncism can prevail.  
    
    jeff

I can certainly understand why you would see it as absurdity, jeff:

>Note 511.11

>    Concerning a social gospel there is no such thing except in the minds
>    of men.
    
>    jeff

To some degree, I am in agreement with what you said in .3.  And ultimately,
the author of the article is also.  He believes the seeds of social activism
do indeed lie within evangelicalism.

Richard
    

<    As a born again Christian the conservative status quo (as you call it)
<    is better than the other political alternative today - rule by special
<    interest groups.  If you reduce all human thought and action to
<    politics, only strife, confusion and cyncism can prevail.  
    
   Jeff,

   I read that and basically agree, then I thought about it and I guess
   religion is just another special interest group just more likely
   to be benevolent.

   Peace,
   Allison

    Actually, I am inclined to disagree completely.  Not the point that
    born again Christians are not a special interest group, but that they
    are inherently a benevolent organization.  Fundamentalists of any sort
    are notoriously intolerant of people who do not believe as they,
    especially if they find themselves in a position of power.  And one
    only has to search just a little bit into our own history to find some
    rather apt examples.  The Puritans in the Massachusetts Bay colony come
    immediately to mind.
    
    Mike

   Mike,

   What I didn't add to the text was exactly that kind of statment.

   In current political pseudo language a PAC is a PAC, when is a
   PAC not a PAC, when it is benevolent to the supported person/group.

   *PAC  Political Action Committie: A group who supports a specific
   bill or political point of view and support politicians that hold
   that view.  The coin of the realm is the media of influence often.

   Peace,
   Allison

	"I believe *radical* means being deeply rooted in the authentic
meaning of right relation to God and one another and, therefore, committed
to profound critique and transformation of all systems and patterns of
alienation in human relations.  This, for me, is simply another name for
Christianity.  Jesus is the paradigmatic radical, and authentic Christianity
is truly radical."

					- Rosemary Radford Ruether
					  National Catholic Reporter
					  September 18, 1992

	"We have to put economic violence in its proper perspective as a
contributor, participator, and creator of street violence.  Violence in
the suite begets violence in the streets."

					- Joseph Lowery
					  Christian Social Action
					  Jul-Aug 1992
    

    "If you work for social change, you're *political*.  If you acquiesce
    to the status quo, you're *above* politics."
    
    					- Helen Prejean
    

In a time when greed is made a virtue and meanness of spirit pervades
political discourse, God's Covenant with America calls us to lift the
Christian values of justice, compassion and community.  To that end we
commit ourselves and invite others to join us to:

1.  Commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons regardless
    of race, gender or sexual orientation.

    (Gal 3.28)

2.  Work for the right of every person to meaningful employment at a living
    wage.

    (Isa 65.21)

3.  Make children's needs a top priority in welfare reform, health and
    education.

    (Matt 25.40)

4.  Federally-administered, tax-supported health care for all Americans.

    (Matt 25.36)

5.  Stop the promotion of alcohol, tobacco, and other addictive drugs.

    (Gal 5.22)

6.  Ban hand guns and assault weapons and eliminate the death penalty.

    (Rom 12.17,21)

7.  Establish peace with justice in the Middle East.

    (Matt 5.9)

8.  Preserve the earth for future generations, protecting it from assaults
    on the environment.

    (Ps 24.1)

9.  Train our military for peacekeeping and reconstruction as well as to defend
    and to redirect weapons spending.

    (Mic 4.3)

10. [Specific to the United Methodist Church]

					Methodist Federation for Social Action
					76 Clinton Avenue
					Staten Island
					New York, NY 10301
					718/273-6372

Re:  Note 475.11                     The Social Gospel                       11 of 11

ZZ  In a time when greed is made a virtue and meanness of spirit pervades
ZZ  political discourse, God's Covenant with America calls us to lift the
ZZ  Christian values of justice, compassion and community.  To that end we
ZZ  commit ourselves and invite others to join us to:

Richard, you simply can't force people to be charitable.  You refer to it as
a spirit of meanness but the average frustrated American sees themself 
writing a check only to have it be thrown into a bottomless pit.  
    
Lady Byrd Johnson was on television last week and during an interview, she 
mentioned that the intent of the Great Society was well founded...but what 
wasn't taken into account was the human nature of take take take.  Shat she
said was that the Great Society was poorly regulated and should have had
greater controls on it from the start.  So, taking the blanket statement made
above, would you consider the former 1st lady mean spirited?  Would you 
consider what she said prudent?  If prudent, then where does she and the 
current congress differ?  

ZZ   1.  Commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons regardless
ZZ       of race, gender or sexual orientation.
ZZ       (Gal 3.28)

Agreed.  Keep in mind that in Galatians 3:28, Paul is speaking to a church of 
like faith.  Earlier in the chapter he also refers to these people as fools for
straying from the faith.  Paul was making a clear separation from the Galatian
church and the Judaizers infiltrating the church.  I believe we can certainly
minister together as interfaiths but I also believe the forerunning purpose
of ministering is to make Christ known.  Others ministering with me may 
disagree with this.  This is why like faith is so important.

ZZ  2.  Work for the right of every person to meaningful employment at a living
ZZ      wage.

ZZ      (Isa 65.21)

I am definitely in agreement with you here.  I find it interesting that the 
writer of this document used the prophecy of the 1000 year millineal reign.
This one be a great element of utopia...and certainly possible.  Considering
the debt the whole world has incurred, I am dubious of this happening however.

3.  Make children's needs a top priority in welfare reform, health and
    education.

    (Matt 25.40)

Yes.  Too bad though that their are parents out there shirking their
responsibility to bring their child up in the way they should go.  This puts 
the onus on society and we all know of course that society is a cheap 
substitute for good parenting.

ZZ   4.  Federally-administered, tax-supported health care for all Americans.

ZZ    (Matt 25.36)

In Matt 25:36, Jesus was speaking to the spiritually righteous.  Government is
a worldly corrupt system.  The church has the onus on this one and they 
recognized this when they founded hospitals and clinics many years ago 
(Actually the first hoospitals were founded by the catholic church and they 
deserve a HUGE attaboy for that one).  The federal government just leeched 
on a good idea thats all.

ZZ   5.  Stop the promotion of alcohol, tobacco, and other addictive drugs.

ZZ    (Gal 5.22)

I agree but we can only do our small part to do this.  The citizenry would
shout from the rooftops if government tried to regulate this.

ZZ   6.  Ban hand guns and assault weapons and eliminate the death penalty.

ZZ    (Rom 12.17,21)

Projectile technology has been discovered years ago and can easily be 
replicated in ones own home.  Therefore, the banning of guns is a moot argument.
Also, since the time of Cain and Abel, it is confirmed that any object can be
used as an assault weapon.  The death penalty I'm not sure about.  

ZZ   7.  Establish peace with justice in the Middle East.

ZZ    (Matt 5.9)

It's being tried and is failing.  I hate to be the prophet of doom but the
anamosity is so great between Arab and Arab, and Arab and Jew.  All this
because Abraham and Sarah lacked faith.  One other thing, considering their
justice system over there is quite different from ours, how would we establish
justice over there?

ZZ  9. Train our military for peacekeeping and reconstruction as well as to defend
ZZ     and to redirect weapons spending.

ZZ    (Mic 4.3)

I believe we should sever all ties to the United Nations.  Then we can act
appropriately on how our military should be operated.  I trust them not!!!!



-Jack

re Note 475.12 by MKOTS3::JMARTIN:

> Lady Byrd Johnson was on television last week and during an interview, she 
> mentioned that the intent of the Great Society was well founded...but what 
> wasn't taken into account was the human nature of take take take.  Shat she
> said was that the Great Society was poorly regulated and should have had
> greater controls on it from the start.  So, taking the blanket statement made
> above, would you consider the former 1st lady mean spirited?  Would you 
> consider what she said prudent?  If prudent, then where does she and the 
> current congress differ?  

        I suspect that she's just getting a bit old, or wasn't really
        referring to the "Great Society" programs per se but to
        welfare in general.

        (People conveniently forget that welfare and things such as
        public housing started during the depression and were well
        under way during the 50's.  Lyndon Johnson was on record as
        saying that the Great Society was expressly not a series of
        welfare or entitlements, but a set of services and programs
        to support self-improvement and community improvement.  Most
        of the Great Society was dismantled during the Nixon
        administration, but welfare, which pre-dated it, continued --
        as did a few unquestionably helpful programs such as Head
        Start.)


> ZZ  9. Train our military for peacekeeping and reconstruction as well as to defend
> ZZ     and to redirect weapons spending.
> 
> ZZ    (Mic 4.3)
> 
> I believe we should sever all ties to the United Nations.  Then we can act
> appropriately on how our military should be operated.  I trust them not!!!!
  
        Curiously, Jack, you conservatives seem to have deep respect
        for the wisdom and performance of our government in one area,
        an area in which errors can be most devastating not only to
        ourselves but to the world:  the military.

        Bob

    I'll be the first to admit the military has caused it's share of
    blunders.  I will also admit the military has been misused quite a
    bit...Somalia and Haiti not withstanding.  I do however place a large
    price on the sovereignty of the United States.  That being self
    determination.  I see the United Nations as a pawn for our CiC to hide
    behind.  I think the United Nations is attempting to usurp some of the
    sovereignty of the United States.  
    
    -Jack