Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Allison,

	I'm certain it took a great deal of courage to reveal these
things about yourself with us.  I'm not so certain I'd be able to
risk becoming vulnerable to the degree you have.

	I'm glad you've chosen life.  Suicide closes the door to so
many options.

Peace,
Richard

    Allison,
    
    I greatly appreciate your openness and your striving to be true to 
    your self and the Higher Power in your life.  Though we all have a 
    unique perspective and journey, at a certain level some are especially 
    so. In my life it has been the "kaleidascopic patterns" the differences 
    and commonalities which these perspectives create that I've come to see 
    and learn the most from.  
    
    Take heart that what the girl in the mirror might feel as lack of courage, 
    I, for one, see as incredible bravery.
    
    Thanks for sharing your *self* and insights into your journey here. 
    And a very happy, albeit belated, birthday to you Allison Jean, (from
    another '53 baby).  A good year it was, yes? :-)
    
    Karen

    Allison,
    
    Okay, I'll accept being inspired by a chicken. :-)  You know, that
    reminds me of a definition I heard of courage years ago:  courage is
    not the absence of fear, but being able to take action in the face of
    fear.  
    
    Karen
    
    p.s.  September 16 - a virgin....! :-)

    
    Thank you for your courage Allison.  As I sat here considering what
    you have shared, I glanced over to where there is a poem hanging on
    my cubicle wall and felt the urge to share it with you.
    
    Love After Love - by Derek Walcott
    
    The time will come
    when with elation
    you will greet yourself
    arriving ar your own door
    in your own mirror
    and each will smile
    at the other's welcome
    and say sit here, eat
    you will love again
    this stranger who was yourself
    give wine, give bread
    give back your heart to itself
    to the stranger who has loved you
    all your life
    who you ignored for another
    who knows you by heart
    take down the love letters
    from the bookshelf
    the photographs, the desperate notes
    peel your own image from the mirror
    sit and feast on your life
    
    
    Carole

    Allison,
    
    Thank you for sharing.   I do not understand it all, and I cannot
    explain it, but I know God has a purpose for each one of us.  I'm
    praying that you may continue to fulfil His purpose for you.
    
    Love,
    
    Brian
    

    Allison,
    
    I had remembered reading something by you awhile back when I used to
    read -wn- notes so I was a little bit familiar with your background. 
    I admire your courage to share here and my support as a fellow traveler
    along the spiritual path.
    
    Your words here are inspirational and encouraging.  I look forward to
    meeting you in person at the C-P dinner.
    
    Love to you,
    
    Ro
    

    Allison,
    
    I hope you know that I think you are very courageous.  I agree with
    Nancy, that courageous does not mean not being afraid but being able to
    act in spite of being afraid.  You are who you are and I accept and 
    like you for who you are.
    
    
    Patricia

    Allison,
    
    I hope all in C-P will open their hearts to you and those that find
    they can't will take a look at why they have hardened their hearts.  I
    suspect they will find it is their own fears that cause them to close
    themselves off to other children of God.
    
    Ro
    

re Note 441.5 by VIDSYS::PARENT:

>         My general feeing that from many religious quarters the words I
>    	keep hearing is "lifes tough, and God wants it that way".  I don't
>    	subscribe to that, 

        I don't subscribe to that either, especially since the Bible
        seems to say that "life's tough because of the poor choices
        we, and others, make" and that God explicitly didn't make
        life tough in the first place and went to great lengths to
        give us the means to be free of that toughness.

        In Matthew 11, Jesus says: "Take my yoke upon you, and learn
        of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find
        rest unto your souls. For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is
        light."  Any heavy burden is NOT of God, but of human origin.

        Bob

     First of all, Allison, I admire your courage too, and please  consider
     me  a  supporter  as you strive to gain peace of mind and happiness in
     whichever way of life you choose.

     RE: .5

>       The Catholic church has been especally intolerent, I don't exist
>       in their viewpoint.  That is why I'll never attend a mass again.

     True, the "official" stance it takes would seem to be as you say.  But
     as  a  former  member myself, my experience has been that the Catholic
     Church in America (or, at least, in the  Chicago  Archdiocese)  is  as
     varied  as  any Protestant denomination you can think of.  If you feel
     at home among Catholics, please consider shopping around for a  parish
     that  is more accepting of your outlook.  I'm thinking now of a friend
     of mine who came out of the closet (his words) when he  was  diagnosed
     with  AIDS.   He found a support group in one parish that was as great
     comfort to him in his last years, and, among  other  activities,  they
     attended  mass  together  regularly.  Where the rubber meets the road,
     Catholics are people too, and many of them (including priests) believe
     the  imitation  of  Christ  sometimes  calls  for  taking  a stance in
     opposition to "official" doctrine.

     Peace,

     Alvin

Indeed, Allison, I feel your pain and I sympathize with
what you have gone through and continue to go through.
I hope you will feel loved and accepted despite the
disagreements that we have (and will continue to have!)
in this file.

Collis

    RE: .0 Allison,
    
                       Well, I do not know really what I need to say here 
    but I know I need to say something.  Your willingness to open your
    hurts and pain may help others to open up within a comfortable place.
    So far I have been *very* proud of the response here from all of the
    members here to a most difficult situation to understand.  I cannot
    say that I understand what you have been going thru or even can I
    imagine what your childhood must have been like.  You were selected
    as a moderator because of what we percieved as a mature personality
    with the ability to be fair and just within the parameters of this
    file.  Your unique viewpoint on gender roles and sex is only a pleasent
    surprise and not a qualification.  I believe that this file is becoming 
    what I had always hoped it would be.  
    
    
    Dave

    Allison - 
    
    Wow!  I remember telling you how much I admired you when I met you last
    summer at the _WN_ gathering.  That goes even more so now.  
    
    hugs and support,
    Nanci

     RE: .16

>    ...................................................  It is fortunate
>    for me that I have moved on spritually and found another growth path
>    for my beliefs.

     Great.  :^D  May you find happiness and meaning there.

     Sorry.  I replied as I did because I thought maybe your expression  of
     bitterness (justifiable too, to my mind) might also be an indirect way
     of asking for a way to continue a relationship with the Roman Catholic
     church.   As  my  friend's  story  illustrated,  there  are  others in
     situations similar to yours who find that they have such an ache.  The
     R.C.  church  is a large and old institution.  It changes, but does so
     very slowly, and those changes that have occurred came  about  because
     of  the  influence  of  members  who  saw  the  errors in doctrine and
     continued on to witness for the Truth.  This takes courage, too, but I
     think  those  that  love  this  ancient  organization will always find
     kindred spirits there.

     Peace,

     Alvin

    As I was reading the basenote a few minutes ago, I was on "hold" on the
    business telephone.  Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" was playing beautifully
    in the background.  As I read the words and heard the sound, goose
    bumps went all over my body.  God speaks to us in such meaningful ways,
    doesn't she?
    
    	Regards,
    
    	Ron
    

    re: .20
    
    [... and those changes that have occurred came  about  because
     of  the  influence  of  members  who  saw  the  errors in doctrine
     and continued on to witness for the Truth.]  
    
    I'm remembering what Hans Kung, a noted RC Theologian from Tubingen,
    wrote in "On Being a Christian" re RC Doctrine.  He states as an answer
    to the question on how one can look upon the current RC Doctrine in
    light of the older RC Doctrine, that the "truth" was always there, it
    just took until now to find it!
    
    Even though Kung has lost his rights of Priesthood from Rome, in fact,
    in his Jubilee (25th) year, he writes that he will always remain a
    Roman Catholic.
    
    No religious "system" is perfect; God knows that and loves us
    regardless.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

Allison,

What can I say?  Thanks for sharing.  

Love & ((hugs)),

Jim

out sick this last week and catching up...

    RE: Basenote
    
    In traditional African culture they would have forced you to manhood. 
    Given you a little help making the adjustment to your physical
    condition...
    
    I've got six brothers, and no sisters.  My baby brother, David, started
    out with early signs of transexual behavior.  He's favorite playmate
    was a little girl up the street name Phyllis (our parent's would refer
    to them as David and Phyllis Newman when the played together, in jest). 
    But David, began to show signs of wanting to be like a girl.  Maybe he
    was born with those kinds of feelings, I don't know, but we STOPPED him
    from playing with Phyllis, and STOPPED him from putting on lipstick and
    STOPPED him from doing anything like girls do.  
    
    We wrestled him.  We boxed him, and made him fight back.  We got him
    out there playing football.  We got him playing softball.  We got him
    out there running the banks of the river with us (there was a river
    across the street and along the banks was trails and further away a
    boat dock.)  We got him doing a lot of things, that help him into
    MANhood, not WOMENhood.  
    
    Now, I don't know, a maybe he's suppressed his desire very deeply.  But
    I don't believe he's participate in homosexual activities, and he's
    always to my knowledge dated females...again maybe he just doesn't show
    it to us.  But for the most part he's doing OK. He was in the service a
    few years, in the Army.  He's quite athletic.  He's a good looking man
    now, 31 years old now, and still hasn't revealed any homosexual
    activities.
    
    Now, I do have one brother who has been involved with homosexual
    activities, that's Kevin...but he's been in the penitentary for the
    majority of his adult life...and picked it up there...but he doesn't
    express himself in a feminine way either, and if it weren't for
    circumstances (I guess) he'd not have done that...and the FIRST thing
    he looks for when he gets out is a WOMAN so.
    
    I say all that to say I understand your feelings, but I also know what
    can be done about it.  In the Bible or some religious bible, maybe it
    was African religion, it says that we should adjust to the physical
    as best we can...I just think in the long run, though you may not be
    totally happy, I don't think you'd ever feel ashamed of being with a
    woman as you might be with a man, and therefore wouldn't have strong
    feelings of a suicidal nature.  Actually, the dominance over the
    passion and urge to be with other man could result in a stronger you. 
    Succombing to passions, whatever they be, usually is good for only
    short term happiness anyway.
    
    God bless...
    
    Playtoe

    Playtoe,
    
    I wish you had understood Allison's basenote more clearly.  She
    explains that homosexuality and transexuality are not the same.
    I know you were trying to be kind and you were very open and sharing
    about your family and I thank you for that.  However, you're missing
    something important in her note.
    
    Ro
    
    

Playtoe .25,

	You're talking about something very different than Allison is.

	You may be interested to know that I, too, played far more often with
girls than with boys as a child.  It may come as a surprise to you that I am
quite secure in my heterosexuality as an adult male.  Actually, I'm quite
grateful than no one tried to make me become "macho" or "jock."  Too many
of the "Man's man" types see women as an entirely different species.

Peace,
Richard

    re: 26
    
    I am not missing that important point.  I dealt with both separately,
    or did you miss that important point in my note.
    
    The transexuality defined by Allison, as being the feminine dominating
    in the body of the masculine is understandable, I've had a little
    brother like that.  On the other hand, homosexuality, I've got a
    brother in the pen that does that too...though he's not transexual.
    
    I've got a brother who's transexual but has not to my knowledge been
    involved with homosexual activities, and I have a brother who's
    participated in homosexual activities, but is not transexual.  Did you
    get that message from my note?
    
    But overall, I was saying that the transexual, in African social
    practice, is encouraged to adjust to the physical as best they can,
    this is the best way, the least troublesome to the mind and soul,
    according to Africans.  Now you may or may not agree that is the  best
    way, like some don't think excision is the best thing, but hey, we all
    have our entitlements, and grant Africa and Africans it's own, starting
    here and starting right now...
    
    Playtoe

    RE: 27
    
    I too played with girls, perhaps not MORE OFTEN than the fellas, but as
    much as I could!;-0  That's not the point.  The point is "emulating"
    feminine behavior, putting on lip stick, wearing dresses, acting like a
    (please excuse this term, I mean no offense, but it's the most
    applicable term to this situation) "sissy"...my little brother acted
    like one.  And I define it to mean the deliberate effort of males to 
    to exhibit conduct comely for females, designed to attract the male.  
    
    So my little brother was fine until he started the lipstick and shoes
    and dresses and girly talk...did you ever do that sort of stuff.
    
    I'd appreciate you folks not trying to control my mind like this.  It's
    clear you don't understand Africanity and don't accept their
    ideas...not that you have any better ones, and you don't.  But the
    "rightness of whiteness" makes you arrogantly think so!
    
    I'm black talking black to black...so please stand back.
    
    Thank you.
    
    Playtoe

    For the record, I am a North American; I was born and raised in the
    United States.  I am not European, I am not African, I am not Asian, I
    am not Antarctican.

    Each culture has its own practices; many cultural differences represent
    innocuous local customs, where no one culture can claim to be "better"
    than another.  Other cultural differences are not so innocuous; as a
    human being, I have an interest in the suffering that is imposed on
    people everywhere.

    Some kind of balance is thus necessary.  Events and practices in all
    parts of the world are not immune to evaluation simply because they
    happen in other cultures than my own.  On the other hand, that doesn't
    mean that we can judge what are otherwise innocuous differences simply
    because they don't jibe with what we are used to.  Finding that balance
    may not always be easy where ambiguity arises, but in other cases it is
    rather clear cut.  What happened at Tiannamen Square, for example, was
    not just an internal Chinese affair; it was horrible, and I stand in
    judgment of what happened.  The practice of excision is another example
    of a horrible and barbaric practice directed at women in some cultures,
    and that too I condemn.

    Cultural evaluation applies to my own culture.  Although I am a North
    American, I don't approve of every cultural practice in my native land,
    and some of them I find quite offensive.  Other practices I admire. 
    And others I accept as simply innocuous practices unique to my own
    society, no better or worse than others.
    
    -- Mike

    Re: .30
    
    Ahh Playtoe...you sure have way of taking these replies and moving them
    to your way. I'm really getting tired of having every discussion turn
    into a white verses black slant. Can't we just discuss things from a
    "Christian Perspective?"
    
    Marc H.

    RE: 28
    
>   Not absolutly true, this was documented author Jan Morris, formally
>   James Morris. 
    
    True not everyone is traditionally inclined.
    
>   Interesting, unfortunately inaccurate diagnosis.  Amoung the things
>   I did as a kid, I lived in a neighborhood of all boys.  I used to race
>   anything, karts, bikes, motorcycles and still would like to get back to 
>   some of those things.  Amoung my peers I was larger and faster and
>   outwardly not feminine.  It was clear in my household that it was
>   DANGEROUS to exhibit that behavour.  I did not cross dress or play with
<   makeup,  I want/wanted be female not just look like one.  That is the
>   difference between cross dressing and transsexualism, the total and
>   complete drive to be in body the opposite sex.
    
    Oh no, not an inaccurate diagnosis.  In our home it hadn't be clarified
    about the danger of exhibiting transsexual behevior...cross dressing is
    secondary to transexualism.  My brother was quite young and didn't know
    any better, he was just doing what HE thought was right according to
    the way he felt...if you didn't cross dress because of the DANGER but
    held it latently inside THAT probably causes more of a problem than
    anything else..."stolen waters are sweetest" kind of thing, sneaking
    about doing it.  
    
    My brother expressed it and we acknowledged it, at an early stage, it
    wasn't something we tried to hide and deny, but we all shared in it
    with and we kept his confidentiality about it...we didn't go around
    broadcasting and embarrassing him about it, but we programatically
    amongst ourselves dealt with it.  
    
    NO is wasn't an inaccurate diagnosis, that is not consistent with the
    fact that we succeeded in curbing the expression of behavior uncomely
    to a man, which could have caused him greater repressive states of
    being.  
    
>   suppressed transsexual (very unlikely, read the stats I posted). This
    
    Suppression is truly not the answer, it is a matter of redefining or
    learning a different way of interpreting those urges that you THINK are
    those of a feminine inside your masculine body.  How do you KNOW that
    those inner desires, urges or sensations are feminine in nature?  Or
    why do those sensations have to cause the reaction/response you tend to
    naturally make or interpret them to mean.
    
    Like in Christianity, life doesn't change, but what happens is that the
    Bible teaches us a new way of interpreting the same old life we've been
    living, and that's all we did for lil bro.  I have no doubt that if we
    had not help bro then he'd have become gay...I know he has this
    transexual feeling or had it, but he's learned to renew his thinking
    about those feelings, and nature hasn't played a dirty trick on him.
    
    What makes you think that those feelings you feel are so feminine
    anyway?  
    
    The fact is our culture, or American culture, is such that it takes
    those borderline sensations of the male and defines them as feminine
    and encourages them in both sexes...read "The Conspiracy to Destroy
    Black Boys," by Jawanza Kunjufu.  
    
    You say you have pictures of all this masculine activities you partake
    of and like...it's not about that either.  My brother doesn't go all
    out to be in masculine circles, or activities, and we didn't try to
    teach him that point...though we used that sort of thing in our method
    of helping him redefine his urges...I mean instead of those urges being
    feminine why couldn't they be "flamboyant" male sensations.  Don't you
    know many pimps of the old days (50's & 60's) felt that way...pimping
    was one of those ways of showing manhood like your pictures show.  "How
    can I be that way, when I PIMP", is like "How can I be that way when I
    sail, hike canoe, play football, etc."
    
>   Whats the point?  Though I had the opportunity to try many things, none
>   of those things define a man or could make me one.  You may either
    
    That's my point, but you say those urges inside you define you as a
    female inside a males body...what makes a man a man or a woman a woman? 
    We're talking about social adjustment, personal happiness, and the
    interpretation of "differentiated, but undefined" impulses from within. 
    Who defines the feelings you feel?  Those feelings don't come with
    definitions...am I right or wrong?  At least my feelings don't come
    defined.  I feel hungry, but what to eat is my choice.  I feel sexy,
    but how the express that is my choice.  You may feel sexy but does that
    make you express that as women do?  Or the only social definition you
    learned of "sexy" was associated with women?  How does a sexy man
    express himself?  Have you noticed how "sexy male" use to mean "macho
    male", "hunk male", but now that Macho Man has been suppressed more
    "sexy males" are coming out GAY...because that's the only way society
    teaches sex in expression, as females attracting males.  So when you
    feel sexy you tend to express it as a "female attracts males".
    
    You see, black people are beautiful, and have a great deal of pride and
    self confidence in BEING SELF.  Power and MANHOOD is not equated in
    Africa, because the man and woman shared equal power.  But look into
    the expressions of "sexyness" in African culture and you'll see what
    I'm saying.
    
    Playtoe, In the Spirit of Truth
    
    And don't let it upset you if you ever come the realization that this
    society failed you....and they lied about the savage and barbarian,
    ignorant and backward black African...Just be glad you finally found
    peace and love and truth.
    
    God bless. 
    

    RE: 32
    
>    Ahh Playtoe...you sure have way of taking these replies and moving them
>    to your way. I'm really getting tired of having every discussion turn
>    into a white verses black slant. Can't we just discuss things from a
>    "Christian Perspective?"
    
    What is the "Christian Perspective"?  I didn't know it was a specific
    doctrine.  To bad the Gnostics and Roman Catholics didn't find that
    "Christian Perspective, maybe the Gnostic could have lived.
    
    I'm of African descent my friend and well aware of how Europeeans have
    interpreted things differently than my ancestors.  It's right for them,
    if that's what they want, but it's not the standard for the world.
    
    I don't see it as a white vs black thang, I see it just as a black
    thang for ME, now if you want to fight we me about that and condemn my
    perception of life then we may have a problem.  
    
    The past has it that now black people don't know anything about
    themselves, and I teach them about their true history, something that
    has been neglected.  You may be tired of the same old same old...but
    not really because if you were you get tired of the same old same stuff
    YOU been doing too! 
    
    What's your problem with that?  Actually I have a GREAT deal more to
    say about African culture, in contrast to American culture, which may
    be good for us all...if you're tired now, wait until tomorrow!
    
    Playtoe

    
     Ahh Playtoe...you sure have way of taking these replies and moving them
    to your way. I'm really getting tired of having every discussion turn
    into a white verses black slant. Can't we just discuss things from a
    "Christian Perspective?"
    
 >   What is the "Christian Perspective"?  I didn't know it was a specific
 >   doctrine.  To bad the Gnostics and Roman Catholics didn't find that
 >   "Christian Perspective, maybe the Gnostic could have lived.

                         * Explain Please..new note? *
 
 >   I'm of African descent my friend and well aware of how Europeeans have
 >  interpreted things differently than my ancestors.  It's right for them,
 >   if that's what they want, but it's not the standard for the world.

                         * I'm not a European *
  
 >   I don't see it as a white vs black thang, I see it just as a black
 >  thang for ME, now if you want to fight we me about that and condemn my
 >   perception of life then we may have a problem.  
                          
                         * I would like the replies to stay on track*
    
    The past has it that now black people don't know anything about
    themselves, and I teach them about their true history, something that
    has been neglected.  You may be tired of the same old same old...but
    not really because if you were you get tired of the same old same stuff
    YOU been doing too! 
                          * Don't understand???*
        
    What's your problem with that?  Actually I have a GREAT deal more to
    say about African culture, in contrast to American culture, which may
    be good for us all...if you're tired now, wait until tomorrow!

                          * Put it in a separate note please*    
>    Playtoe

     Marc H.   

    re 34
    
>   He likely was not transsexual, that diagnosis is generally not made
>   before puberty.  It could have been fetishistic transvestism instead
    
    Not true, according to those who are now claiming one is BORN gay.
    
    I was talking just a few minutes ago with a coworker about this and
    they too failed to see my point...but I'll tell you what I was saying
    to her.
    
    When black males in America, say twenty years ago, wanted to "attract
    females" they walk a certain way, we called it "catting", or "pimping",
    that was suppressed...we can't walk that way and be socially accepted
    in America any more.  
    
    This is just ONE of the ways African males express "sexiness".  There's
    a saying "White men don't have sex", it was said not because they don't
    have sex, but because they don't have cultural gestures by which to
    express themselves in a sexy way. 
    
    Blacks have also, the "RAP", sweet talking, which is a way of
    expressing their "sexiness"...again white males aren't much for "sweet
    talking", as we know it...and that sort of talk is suppressed.  
    
>   Your assumption of peace of mind certainly is not borne out in
>   practice.  Yes, it would be easier physically and somewhat socially
>   to remain male, it however runs counter to an imperative in in my mind
>   that would always know different.  It is definately similar to being
    
    I say that "peace of mind" is dependent upon how others think of you,
    and not solely upon what you personally think of you.  Even if you do
    what you think is best, but others don't think so, you don't have peace
    of mind because THEY aren't happy with you...
    
>   Africa like I've said before is a diverse land, with many variations in
>   culture.  Within the cultures you are aware of and know, that may have
<   been the way it was handeled.  I am aware of some different parts of
    
    It is not as diverse as we have been lead to believe.  The variations
    we see do not run to the bone of life...the bone is alway the same. 
    For an understanding of the cultural unity of Africa you might try
    reading the book "Cultural Unity of Africa" by Diop, who outlines this
    unity.  And more specifically, look into the Dogon Tribe of West
    Africa, a Priestcraft tribe, who were directly responsible for
    maintaining that cultural unity.
    
    Did you know that the term "Mandinka" is not simply a tribal name, but
    is the name of a language as well, as in "Mandinka speaking
    people"...like the "Hebrew speaking people", all Hebrew speaking people
    aren't of the nation of Hebrew/Israel.  And that Mandinka speaking
    people cover the whole of West Africa, from Senegal to the Sudan below
    the Sahara, including Ivory Coast, Ghana, Togo, Mali, Volta, Nigeria,
    etc.  The Fulbe, Ashanti, Bozo, Bambara, Koukore, and others are all
    "Mandinka speaking people", and then there is the tribe of Mande, which
    are the center of Mandinka speakers, of which the Dogon say they came
    from Mande prior to where they were found in the hills of Mali.  They
    went there during the Islamization thrusts of Arabia, refusing to
    convert.
    
    There's much about Africa we don't know, besides what has been falsely
    reported.
    
    Anyway, I'm saying the how a man is to properly express his natural
    urge to be sexy is not shown is "modern" society...what is it, a
    primitive urge?  And homosexuality is in vogue?  Sex changes is the
    modern way of expressing male "sexiness"?  If you want to be "sexy" and
    you're a man, you should have the operation?  What?
    
    I'm just saying there's other ways, and I'd say they are better.  I
    don't need an operation to express "sexy".  The problem is this, as
    express in the essay "the Rightness of Whiteness".  If you don't do it
    like whites say something is "wrong" with the way you do it.  For
    instance the Asian with "slanted eyes", whites tend to say something
    must be "wrong" with their eyes...and many Asian-Americans get the
    operation.  For example, the "wide nose" of Africans, something is
    "wrong" with it, so some get the operation.  Our hair, something is
    "Wrong" with it, so we get the Jeri Curl operation.  Our skin color,
    something is "Wrong" with it, so we get it changed.  The way we talk is
    wrong, so we change it.  The way we think is wrong, so we change it. 
    That's just the way they've been conditioned to think and react to
    difference...I don't cater to that, and don't allow them to impose
    their standards upon me!  I'm not them nor like them, and I'm fine,
    intelligent and well put together by God...I feel good.
    
    I don't need an operation...I'm not sick or wrongly made.  My skin is
    beautiful, my hair is the best for all seasons, my thoughts are divine,
    and my words can save the world because they are from God...I am fine.
    
    I am not ashamed to express my "sexiness" to attract a female.   
    
    It's a profound subject, the matter of "sexiness" in males, but
    Africans excel Europeans in human sciences...and for such matters I
    have to go to the African Model for the best help.
    
    I'm not wrong because you don't agree, or that this whole Western World
    doesn't agree...remember that I'm not originally a Westerner!  So I'm
    subject to be at odds with the majority... but also remember "majority
    rule" has never been a validation of truth.  Some say, "If everybody
    here is against you, doesn't that prove you are wrong?"  I say no, all
    it proves is the everybody here is against me!  But that doesn't make
    me wrong, it just alienates me from them...but am I alienated from God?  
    
    If you think, or if any of you think, about what I'm saying, I know
    you'll find this the most profoundest thinking on the subject you've
    ever heard.  I've gone over it in mind several times, and compared it
    with reality to see if it is reflected there and I come up with
    infinity examples of it.  Here you folks are, having NO clue to the
    answer to this thing, telling me I'm wrong yet have no suggestions how
    to fix it...except to get an operation...typical response.
    
    You don't have to agree with me or accept my ideas, but don't tell me
    they're wrong, because you don't have the answers either, if you did
    THEN you'd have grounds to call me wrong, but as it is you don't!
    
    
    Playtoe

    re: 36
    
>                         * Explain Please..new note? *
    
    Please explain "Christian Perspective"?
    
>                         * I'm not a European *
    
    This is European society.  I'm not European either, but I've been raise
    to speak, think and act like one!  This sure aint China!
    
>                         * I would like the replies to stay on track*
    
    On WHO's track?  You mean you'd like replies to stay within your
    standards and ability to comprehend and relate to...because my replies
    are on track as I see it.  
    
>                          * Don't understand???*
    
    What makes you feel you HAVE too?  And if you don't what makes you feel
    *I* need to change something...I wasn't talking to you anyway!
    

>                          * Put it in a separate note please*    
    
    Why?  I'm talking about the Black (Afrocentric) Christian Perspective
    of Religion and Gender.  What that's not acceptable here? 
    
    I'm tired of this subtle discrimination in these notes.  And whenever
    you want to escalate this issue, I'm ready!
    
    This is "Christian Perspective", it doesn't say European Christian
    Perspective, or Catholic, or Baptist or NON-African...but you telling
    me AFrican perspective isn't allowed here?
    
    Playtoe, In the Spirit of Truth

    re: 41
    
    Allison, I'm responding to the topic as I see it.  I don't believe in
    what you are perceiving.  Transexuals are not a reality for me.  I
    don't believe that URGES are such that define personality, but
    necessarily how you respond to or express those urges defines your
    personality.  I'm saying it's a matter of acculturation that cause one
    to THINK that "I'm a transexual".
    
    So it is related to the topic, but it's that YOU and others don't agree
    with it.  This the correct topic for these ideas.  And the only reason
    I mention Africanity is to offer the source of my info, so that too is
    relevant.  
    
    If you don't think it's relevent, DON'T respond.  But don't tell me
    it's not for this topic, because I believe it is...am I wrong?  I
    thought there is not "right or wrong"?  We all perceive things
    differently.  What?
    
    Anyone, I've finished...the food is on the table.
    
    Playtoe, IN the Spirit of Truth

    Playtoe .37,
    
    >> He likely was not transsexual, that diagnosis is generally not made
    >> before puberty.  It could have been fetishistic transvetism instead
    
    >  Not true, according to those who are now claiming one is BORN gay.
    
    ....
    
    > This is just one of the ways African males express sexiness...
    
    You are confusing the issues at hand, and not hearing the message 
    to help you understand that transsexualism _does not_ equate to being 
    gay, nor to issues of how one displays "sexiness."
    
    I also request that you open up another topic to discuss the issues you
    wish, so that this topic can stay on closer track to the base-noter's
    original intention.    
    
    Thank you,
    
    Karen
    Co-moderator,
    Christian-Perspective

    re:44
    
    Personally I have no desire to get into anyone's personal and specific
    problems, confusions of mind or whatever, and I really don't think this
    international conference file is a place I'd care to discuss it...;-)
    
    Instead I responded to the general idea of what you presented as a
    topic, the idea of being "transexual"...is the spirit divided?  Can the
    spirit generate a male body if it is a female?  Does nature make such
    errors, or is it we don't understand TRUE human nature?  Perhaps it's
    NOT an error, and just maybe it's a valid and deliberate manifestation. 
    And that brings up the question, What makes you interpret the urges
    inside as being those of a women, inside a male body?  
    
    I don't know what you're interests are or your past accomplishments. 
    But I know the realm in which we live, I know Western civilization and
    culture.  I explained how this culture doesn't offer men much in terms
    of models or modes of expression for "sexy-female attractiveness".  I
    used the term "sexy" inside of sex/sexual, because "sexy" is
    expression, and that's what the problem is, it's a matter of
    "expression".  
    
    Although you made a personal confession in the basenote, I wouldn't
    touch it and don't plan to.  But again, I spoke to the general issue...
    
    Believe me, I KNOW where you're coming from, perhaps every man does,
    like Richard suggested...varying only by "intensity".  That so many
    "homosexuals" and "transexuals" and "transvestites" exist in this
    country is due to elements of THIS culture, not that more and more men
    and women are born with opposing natures inside, born naturally with
    inner conflicts of interest.  A person is not born naturally confused.
    
    If you don't think that a person could be conditioned by the age of 5
    before they even go to school you are DEAD wrong.  I've got a report on
    preschoolers and dolls, you know the black doll vs white doll choice
    thing, as well as some other aspects of testing that same group and it
    reveals the at that early age the children have ALREADY be conditioned
    that BLACK dolls are bad and white is good...HOW?  TV that's how.
    
    Same thing goes with expressions of "male" "sexyness/female
    attraction".  Can any man go to his wardrobe and show me the clothes 
    you consider "sexy"?   Now how about  you women?  Right?  Men just
    don't have proper models/modes for expressing their "sexyness".  And
    the only models they have are females...and from childhood, for those
    boys who want to be "sexy" it becomes a "female" characteristic.  Even
    between guys, we never speak of being "sexy"...I never ask my partner
    "do I look SEXY" for them babes"...no, it's not proper.  I put on
    something MANLY but not SEXY.  Perhaps, it is sexy to me, but I don't
    think of Man=SEXY  it's WOMEN = SEXY...am I right or wrong?  This is
    just general stuff, nothing personal.
    
    It's on the topic, but not as personal as you presented it...
    
    Playtoe

  Re.0

       I am not sure what if anything a person's gender has to
      do with their religious life. Of course I am notoriously
      thick skulled about matters that involve fine points
      of theology. 
       My understanding of the role of religion in a persons
      life is that it helps them understand what they have to offer
      to the world and help finds ways to utilize these gifts.
       To do this one needs to know who they are and from what I
      have read you are quite clear about it at this point in
      your life. I can easily believe that you are enjoying better
      physical and mental health now that you feel confident in
      who you are.
       As for your dilemma about how to reach the clergy who would 
      keep you in the closet or pretend you don't exist, that's a 
      tough one. It's hard enough to deal with my stupidity and
      ignorance I have no idea what to do about someone else's.
      You might suggest that they actually become familiar with
      the teachings of Christ ( Radical idea, huh ?). This might
      open there hearts enough so that they realize that love, 
      compassion and understanding are how we should deal with
      our fellow beings.
        As Shakespeare wrote, "This above all things, to thine own
      self be true."  You seem to being doing that, so I tend to 
      think that while you may face many difficulties and obstacles
      being true to who you are will see you through them.


                                                               Mike

    Re: .39
    
    Discriminate?  Hardly Playtoe. Once again, I'm gone from this note .
    
    Marc H.

    Re: 43
    
    Karen
    
>    You are confusing the issues at hand, and not hearing the message 
>    to help you understand that transsexualism _does not_ equate to being 
>    gay, nor to issues of how one displays "sexiness."
 
    I have not confused the issue!  I don't believe that the issue as
    stated is valid, and is actually misrepresenting, misperceiving basic
    natural urges/desires/drives...and that there's no such thing as a
    "women trapped inside a man's body, or vice versa".
    
    Just because you believe you're right doesn't make you so, and it
    doesn't matter how many agree with you!     
    
    This comes of BASENOTE:
    
>    I was born in March '53 and christened John Parent.  At age 5 1/2
>    I recieved a beating for asking why is my name John not Jane or Jean. 
>    The answer was simple your a boy. My first lesson about my gender 
>    conflict, don't tell anyone, it's a bad thing.

>	Let me stop here and say gender is not sex. Gender is the expression
>	of personality in masculine or feminine terms. Sex is a biological
>	description of how you are assembled.  My body appeared male then,
>	the persona is feminine.  That statement is the core of me.  I am
>	incongruent, my head does not match my body.  There is a name for
>	this, Transsexualism.  This challenges the thing most consider the
>	most unchangeable constant of life.
    
    I've been addressing these statements.  I'm saying this is an untrue
    perception of reality, and the problem is in American culture which
    suppresses and and inhibits, or fails to provide modes of expressing
    feminine aspects of males.  In India, there are many guys like this,
    but they don't feel like a TRANSEXUAL, FEMALE TRAPPED IN A MALE BODY.
    
    I know what I'm talking about, and have answer, you don't know what
    you're talking about and support the illness/problem...
    
    I'm saying that by the time a child reaches 5 they could have had the
    exposure, via TV, to prompt a child to this sort of thinking...my
    brother was one his way...He had those very same attitudes.  He was
    thinking he was girl...I doesn't have much body hair, he's a very
    good looking person...I know what I'm talking about!  Maybe you need to
    MEET David, my brother, for you to realize what I'm saying.
    
    I'm telling you NOW, that it's the culture, which produces so many gays
    and lesbians...by failing to offer outlets for masculine behavior in
    females and vice versa...I know what I'm saying...YOU and JOHN don't
    know what the truth is...and really don't seem to CARE!  That's OK, but
    don't tell me I'M wrong...
    
    Playtoe, In the Spirit of Truth.

    RE: 50
    
    Another thing, we never BEAT, or beat up on David, for what he was
    thinking, we just picked him up and walked him BACK over to the other
    side of the room...so to speak.  He'd been playing on the wrong side of
    the room, that's all.
    
    I won't speak on the very personal issue of John Parent's parents
    treatment of him and I don't think a public forum is good..."Honor thy
    mother and father"....
    
    But I will speak to the general issues...

    Re: 44
    
>   Please respect the fact I am the transsexual and I have studied the
>   subject most of my life.  I assure you there are things I'd rather be,
>   this isn't one of them.  The fact that you don't percieve me as knowing
>   myself, I cannot help you with that.  
    
    I mean no disrespect, it is no disrespect.....I don't agree, I don't
    believe in what you say "Transexual" as "a female in a male body". 
    
    We study and find support for what we want to believe...that's a fact. 
    As much as you feel you've studied in support of your belief, I've
    found to support mine...and mine's has a bigger "global" following
    than your's! 
    
>   Please don't try to teach me how to attract women.  I'm not interested, 
>   it does not concern this topic.  
    
    That wasn't the point of my replies...where did you get this idea?
    
>   Though I have discussed the topic from my perspective as a male to
>   female transsexual there are female to male transsexuals as well.
    
    You bet cha....that's what I'm saying!  This dichotomic thinking people
    have made it hard for BOTH sexes to express the fullest of life.  
    
    But more than this, this "Confusion of Mind" is not new...Black's are
    inferior because they're black, white's are superior because they're
    white, is another side of it "Racism and Sexism" are brother and
    sister....in all your studies you've never studied it like this.  
    
    With all respects, please give me some!
    
    Playtoe

    Playtoe .50,
    
    > I have not confused the issue!  I don't believe that the issue as 
    > stated is valid...
    
    re: .42,
    
    > Transsexuals are not a reality for me.
    
    Yes, after reading .42 and subsequent notes I have seen that you are 
    absolutely correct, Playtoe - you are not "confusing" the issue at all.  
    In fact, I can understand why you were equating transsexualism with 
    gayness and cultural expressions of "sexiness" and sexual attraction.  
    If we want to "discuss" something we don't acknowledge, the only way 
    to do so is to "translate" it to something we do acknowledge.  I hate 
    to tell you this though:  you're losing something _essential_ in the 
    translation.  Imho.  
    
    But I really do appreciate your notes, whether or not I agree with your 
    ideas.  I've learned a tremendous amount about transsexualism in the past 
    few days;  thanks very much for your contribution to that.  I mean that 
    sincerely.  I also think you've raised some interesting cultural differ- 
    ences worth discussion, though I don't feel this is the best note for that.
    
    Thank you too for your good advice - I do hope you heed it as 
    well:  "Just because you believe you're right doesn't make you so." 
    
    Karen

    Re: 46
    
>   Unless I have a specific reason or purpose, I don't dress up "sexy".
    
    Over the weekend I've gone and asked several men, "How many articles of
    clothing do you have in your closet that you consider "SEXY"?  NOT ONE
    said they had anything they considered "sexy" for a man...that ought to
    tell you something!
    
    I'm not going over this again...I believe I've supported my point. 
    
    Now you support your's!  Show me scripture, show me survey's regarding
    your theory's, show me your evidence!   I'll show you mine.
    
>   Valid point.  Though how did we get to dressing sexy?  You introduced
    
    I'm saying this.  Wanting to be "sexy" is only for women in America. 
    But America denies the expression of men as "sexy"...men have no
    clothes or ornamentation, like the female does, by which they can
    adorn themselves to appear "sexy"...
    
    Over the weekend, I spoke to an older white man, and he said "I think
    it's because this is a Christian society."  I said, "Let's not blame
    this on Christianity."  But now that I think of it, he has a good
    point...where in the bible does it indicate "sexy" for males?  It
    speaks of only women as sexy...with bells and scents and eyes and
    paints and scanty dress, etc....but no men are depicted as "sexy".  So
    maybe it has much to do with modern Christianity.
    
>   it but, how does that relate to spritual development when clergy cannot
>   or will not do more than repeat dogma?
    
    Perhaps you might perceive why clergy don't care to discuss it.
    
>   You have spoken to by alluding to confusion, and perceptions.  I
>   included it as a point of reference so people might have an idea of
>   where I have come from.  My subject was coupled to the idea and reality
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Is that necessary?  Why not just open the issue with generic examples
    of situations, which you may really have gone through but we don't know
    that.  Why is it important that we know where "YOU'VE" been...the
    trouble you've seen.  I don't ever speak of personal troubles...it's
    not necessary.  I put those general issues out there and glean truth
    just like everyone else...
    
>   No you don't your not even close.  This is not an european culture
 >  unique situation.  It has been practiced for centuries in the far east.
 >  You would agree that is a different culture than this?
    
    What has been practiced in the far east for centuries?
    
>   I do understand Palovian psychology.  Again you labour to prove or
>   disprove me or my kind, thereby sidestepping the issue I have
>   presented.   I will repeat some info to refresh your memory.
 
    No not Pavlovian theory...we're talking B.F. Skinner Theory and
    Gestault Theory...Behavorial Psychology....Skinner goes BEYOND Pavlov.
    
>     Both my parents were clear in their ideas of what
>   men and women were.  My father was a rugged strong person and not 
    
    That may be true, but that isn't to say that what we are clear on is
    necessarily the whole truth and nothing but the truth...
    
>   shy either.  I am not of the baby in front of the TV generation.
>   I even grew up in a racially mixed area.  Where did the cinditioning
>   come from?  Lets see my mother had a difficult pregnancy with me,
    
    They weren't able to penpoint the source of conditioning that caused
    the preschoolers to pick the white doll and get "angry" or "afraid" at
    seeing a black one...but they'd been conditioned, and primarily it came
    from TV, but what programs or whatever was not discussed.
    
>   assume that is true for a minute as well.  When you use the mode of
>   communication of "man to man" you lose me.  Even though I am
    
    Only because what we have conditioned to be "manly" is expressively
    what has served to convince you you're personality must be feminine. 
    The "man" and "women" are two hardline opposite realities in America
    and there's no in between...either you are a man and do THIS or you're
    not a "man" and you must be "women inside a man's body", "less than a
    man"...etc...I know all about it...all of it's false!  All of it is
    part of the conditioning process.
    
>   passions then men.  I feel that statement by you is illiteration to
>   the concept that men and women think differently.  I submit I think 
    
    That's mighty Western of you!  How different is different?  Totally
    different?  Slightly different?  Hardly different at all?  
    
>   As much as I try we do not communicate, though I noticed one thing.
>   you mode of interaction with me carries the same tone as with other
>   women.
      
    And what does that mean?  My tone is irrelevent...beauty is in the eyes
    of the beholder.  We're discussing ideas...not personalities.

    RE: 53
    
>   You seem to insist I am gay.  The problem here is I am NOT interested
>   in men, sexually or otherwise.  
    
    That's fine, I didn't say that you were.  I'm speaking only of self
    perception...however, in some men it does lead to "homosexuality".  
    
    In the book of Marvin Gaye, "Divided Soul", (have you read this book?)
    it speaks about this a little.  Marvin's real last name is "Gay", he
    added the "e".  His father wore "flower printed shirts, and liked
    lace".  The first women Marvin had was a prostitute, he felt that this
    perverted or gave him a low opinion of women from then on...he was a
    playboy for life...It's quite a book, but his father wasn't a
    homosexual either.
    
>   I maintain the position of I do what is necessary to do for my health
>   and sanity.  Your position is one of maintaining me as the defective 
>   result of a defective society.  Yet by doing that you actually justify
>   the base notes position of an unhealthy bias toward sexual conformity.  
    
    Essentially yes, but again, "I cried when I had no shoes, til I saw one
    who had no feet".  "Defective Society", or just a "defective social
    convention about gender roles"...the West has had a serious problem
    with gender roles since the days of Rome.
    
    The Catholic may indeed have perceived something as I do, but they did
    not implement the correct solution.  The Catholic required punishment,
    whereas I just pick you up and walk you over to the other side...and
    you may walk back, and I'll repeat my actions, until you learn to stay
    on your side of the room.  And you like it on your side, because it's
    your side!  You been to busy looking at the other side of the room and
    didn't even know or learn about your own side...I speaking mystically.
    
    "Delusion" is a strong word, I'd prefer to keep it at "misconception"
    if you don't mind...I know the difference...
    
    We black folk suffer from more than maladies than this....this is a
    major one, but not the only one.  Then again, I've got info on the
    effects this has had on whites...you might like to read...but that's
    another story.
    
    Playtoe

     Not to be critical, Playtoe, but you seem to have  all  bases  covered
     here.  First you say:

     RE: .50

>    Just because you believe you're right doesn't make you so, and it
>    doesn't matter how many agree with you!     

     And then you say:

     RE: .52

>    We study and find support for what we want to believe...that's a fact. 
>    As much as you feel you've studied in support of your belief, I've
>    found to support mine...and mine's has a bigger "global" following
>    than your's! 

     Your observations about, "people believing they're  right  not  making
     them  right",  and,  "people  finding  support  for  what they want to
     believe", are right on.  But you're not being consistent  with  regard
     to  verifying one's belief by counting the number of people that agree
     with that belief.

     Personally, when I'm inclined to believe something,  I  trust  my  own
     instincts  first  and  ignore the number of people that look at it the
     same way.  If I don't have an opinion or don't care to put any thought
     into something, I'll go with the flow.  And because I trust that's how
     most people do it too, including you, I wouldn't  argue  too  strongly
     for  or  against anyone's belief using the number of people that agree
     or disagree with my or their view.

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

    RE: 55
    
    Karen:
    
    I appreciate the consideration you give...it really does a lot to
    defuse my intensity of emotion...thanks, I needed that...wow, my neck!
    
    It' hard as all get out, trying to get a Westerner to see other's
    perspectives...I'm getting the hang of it, but there are some Western
    types who won't bend!  
    
    Anyway, if you knew what I'm up against, and I can't see any
    alternative to being in the struggle for enlightenment, then you'd
    understand why at times I "lose something _essential_ in the
    translation."  IMHO, it's 50-50 why something get's lost.
    
    I'm learning, but we both need to do so to mutually recognize OUR
    growth...you are special, in that you do learn and grow, and I see
    you:-)
    
    Playtoe

    After wading through this discussion, I will admit my own ignorance on
    the subject of transexuality.

    It is clear that our culture defines in many ways what it means to be a
    man or a woman.  Different cultures often impose their own sexual
    stereotypes on the people who inherit them, and while the stereotypes
    may sometimes relate to physical differences, some of them  also seem
    quite arbitrary.  Yet they are what we know and what we live with.  So
    if I am a man born in culture A, then what it means to be man results
    in certain types of behavioral norms--clothing, speech, etc.--that may
    differ radically from the behavioral norms I would have assumed had I
    been born elsewhere.  But I am a man in either case.

    Thus so much of what it means to be a man bears no real connection to
    what society tells me it means to be a man.  My maleness is independent
    of what society tells me it means.  This is important to recognize in
    the light of feminism, because we know that cultural stereotypes are
    not only different from the sex we are born with, they are in fact
    often sexist, oppressive, or otherwise problematic.  Cultural
    stereotypes can be changed; the sex we are born with, on the other
    hand, we have no choice in.  To explain all this, it seems easy enough
    by tossing out the arbitrariness of culture and instead relying on our
    physical bodies to describe the differences between the sexes.  Simple
    enough.

    The only problem is that transexuality throws a bit of a ringer in this
    neat little theory.  What Allison and others like her have experienced
    could suggest that there is something to being a man or woman that not
    only goes beyond what culture imparts to us, but also doesn't
    necessarily depend on the outwardly visible sex we are physically born
    with.  Well, if it isn't culture, and it isn't our genitals, what
    exactly is it?

    From what I have gathered via the discussion in this topic,
    transexuality seems to suggest that all of us carry some kind of sexual
    imprint.  Almost always, this is identical to the physical sex that we
    are born with, but for a small percentage of people the imprint does
    not match the physical genitalia.  I can't explain it, and I admit I
    don't understand it.  But then, in a sense, the sex we are attracted to
    is also a kind of imprint in our brains--or perhaps better described as
    a template.  For most of us, the opposite sex matches the template in
    our brains; for a few others, the same sex matches that template (and
    still others have a template for both sexes.)

    The mechanism for a sexual imprint mismatch is obviously not
    understood, although Allison's comment about hormones is rather
    interesting.  I wish I could remember more from what my college
    physical anthropology professor taught on this subject.  There was one
    anecdote she gave, that I mostly forget, about someone who might have 
    been born XXY (I don't remember for sure), and who was surgically
    altered as a child and brought up to live as a one sex (I think it was
    a girl).  She mentioned that as the person got older, although never
    told about what had been done to them, they in fact wanted to be the
    other sex.  This is, of course, second hand mostly forgotten anecdotal
    evidence, so take it with a healthy grain of salt.

    Anyway, the point is that, whatever the mechanism, the idea of
    transexuality suggests that we do carry with us an imprint of our
    gender identity.  I might assume otherwise that since I was born as a
    man, I developed that naturally, as a matter of course, as my sexual
    (or gender) identity.  Similarly, I accept my blue eyes as part of my
    identity.  The big difference between eye color and gender is that
    our sex shapes what we are in critical and important ways, and is an
    important part of the way our species functions and perpetuates itself. 
    So perhaps Mother Nature encoded some powerful forces into our genetic
    expression of sex and gender that weren't necessary for things like eye
    color.

    Anyway, those are just some random thoughts on the issue.  I haven't
    had a direct personal interest in the subject as Allison obviously has,
    so I don't really know much about it.  I apologize if I am showing my
    ignorance.

    -- Mike

     RE: .61

>    ....................  But then, in a sense, the sex we are attracted to
>    is also a kind of imprint in our brains--or perhaps better described as
>    a template.  For most of us, the opposite sex matches the template in
>    our brains; for a few others, the same sex matches that template (and
>    still others have a template for both sexes.)

     If I remember correctly, in the very early stages of  our  development
     we  are  neither male nor female.  I would think it's possible that at
     that time we all posses the originals of both templates.

     When you consider the number of combinations of things that must occur
     when  our  bodies  just forming, it's not so surprising that there are
     variations that occasionally happen,  e.g.,  six  fingers.   When  the
     variation  is  not  life  sustaining, a natural abortion (miscarriage)
     will often occur.  Other variations may have the potential for leading
     our  species  down a new evolutionary path.  And maybe some variations
     can give us important clues into how the mind works so we can begin to
     sift out what parts are culturally determinated from what parts we are
     literally born with.

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

    re:  59
    
>      Cross-culturally, the Hijra of India and the corresponding group 
>      in Burma may have conditions that, according to this manual, 
>      would be diagnosed as male-to-female transsexualism. The Hijra, 
>      however, traditionally undergo castration not hormonal and 
>      surgical feminization (creation of a vagina).
    
    Didn't we just discuss what "castration" was?  I haven't heard of it
    ever being used as a form of "feminization" of the male...HA!  It
    becomes highly suspect this "may have conditions that," is that all
    they give you?  What exactly do these Hijra do?  "Cross culturally," 
    sounds good doesn't it!  But "castration" mixed in there is deep.
    
>   Yes he does.  Have you read John Money, Richard F Doctor, Virgina
>   Prince as well?  
    
    No.  Are they representing any major practice, ideology or perspective
    in Western Culture?
    
>   Clever ruse.  Imply lies.
    
    No, just possible misconceptions.  LIES, imply evil and intent.  
    
>   This holds itself up as an example of the idea.  You used a form of
>   derision to devalue the statement preceeding itwithout ever recognizing
>   it. Your questions are of course not relevent as you want quantitive
>   values  to something you do not recognize exists.  Is it important that
>   it is a little or greatly different?  Why?
    
    I can't recognize what doesn't exist....and to that extent it is
    important and relevent to present some quantifiable evidence of it. 
    Thre greater the better for your case.  Otherwise can you blame me for
    not recognizing what I cannot see?  I can't see it, and you can't take
    the time to show me?  What do you expect from me?
    
>   Do you feel there is a difference between how people(general form)
>   think?  Do you feel that men and women think differently?  Do you
>   feel that if both are true that would give rise to things being 
>   valued differently between males thought and females?
    
    No, I don't believe there is a difference between how people "generally
    form" thoughts, or think?  We all think alike.  Men and women think
    alike.  I do believe that because people have different values and thus
    have different interests and beliefs, goals and aspirations.  But
    generally how they formed those ideas happens all alike, people think
    alike.  Given the same values and experience, knowledge and background
    people pretty much reach the same conclusions.  Then again sometimes
    "complementarities" develop, but they are reached in thought alike.  
    
    In Dialectical Materialism, they have a law they call "The Law of
    Transformation of Quantity into Quality".  A "quantity" of experience
    leads to a "qualitative" change...this is true of EVERY THING that
    changes...it is the basis for "mental conditioning" and it is fact.  
    
    I learned to "condition my own environment".  I STOPPED TV watching for
    over 10 years!  I STOPPED driving a car for over 10 years....I don't
    own a car now, the last one I had was a 1975 Mark IV in 1977...heck
    it's been almost 15 years!  I just got a TV when Iraq situation was
    going on...I read books, listen to music I select, and watch videos I
    select.  I've BROKEN the mental hold!  I go where I select, I work
    where I select for as long as I select.  FEAR does not enter into my
    decisions, what is of greatest importance is my spiritual well being. 
    And that requires a "harmony" between Me-God-Nature...a TRINITY of
    Immortality, Eternity, and Infinity.  
    
>   With tone comes context, context sets meaning and importance.  Notes
    
    I don't mind "tone, context" and all that crap...sometimes it can be
    used against you.  I might be telling you truth, but using a harsh
    tone, and you might reject the truth because of the tone...and you'd
    loose!  That's a mighty ploy of oppression.  Some blacks reject the
    Bible because of "context" in which it was introduced to them...and
    they loose!    
    
    I filter out all that tone and context, and put it in my own tone and
    context, evaluate it and assess the meaning and value on it's own
    merits...and then I might look back and wonder, WHY did they present it
    like that?  And I investigate the reason for the "context" separate
    from the ideas.  We do this all the time....all people think alike.
    
    Conditioning usually results in one neglecting to evaluate a certain
    perspective or idea when given in a certain context....but every other
    one we evaluate just like everyone else does.
    
    Personally, I'm happy to hear you aren't homosexual.  MAYBE you might
    be interested in developing to true men's fashions of a "sexy" kind, or
    of a "feminine" kind...which don't really suggest "homosexual"...that
    would be helpful in this society, and could make you rich.
    
    Anyway...
    
    Playtoe
    Playtoe, In the Spirit of Truth
    

    re 61
     
    Very good...
    
    
>    The only problem is that transexuality throws a bit of a ringer in this
>    neat little theory.  What Allison and others like her have experienced
>    could suggest that there is something to being a man or woman that not
>    only goes beyond what culture imparts to us, but also doesn't
>    necessarily depend on the outwardly visible sex we are physically born
>    with.  Well, if it isn't culture, and it isn't our genitals, what
>    exactly is it?

    What it becomes, consistent with what I've previously related, is this.  
    It is a "spectrum" of male and female personality types.  You have
    males ranging from real masculine to real feminine, but they are MALE,
    and not to be considered PERVERSIONS, "females trapped in male
    bodies"!   And you have females ranging from real feminine to real
    masculine, but they are FEMALES, and not to be considered as
    PERVERSIONS, "Males trapped in female bodies".  
    
    Culture SHOULD allow for the expression of the spectrum of types, but
    ours doesn't, it forces individuals to extremes (dichotomic thinking),
    else sees mixtures as PERVERSIONS...mixed anything is somewhat of
    "perversion"...mutts, mulattoes, etc are not pure and not "right", are
    somewhat perversions of nature.  So to hear about a "female trapped in
    a male body" suggests "perversion" to the mind...we do not acknowledge
    and allow for its expression....this was part of the "perverseness"
    Europeans saw in African culture, and they STOPPED that sort of stuff,
    and put every thing to the left or to the right...and forced it to
    extremes, no in between.
    
    Mike, thanks for the consideration...
    
    Playtoe

    Re  The Comforter, The Spirit of Truth
    
    For those who can receive the "wisdom that comes from above", which is
    first peaceable, easily entreated, etc."  This is not an EGOTISTICAL
    statement on my part.  I try to remove all "mysticism" from the Word of
    God...it's no mystery, it's just plain old reality and natural to those
    who find it.
    
    The Spirit of Truth IS a Comforter to those who are confused and/or
    have misconceptions of life and nature.
    
    And, once Truth is come and known, it shall NEVER depart from you. 
    This what I've said to you, and to those who understand it and
    perceive it, shall NEVER depart from you...it is impossible.  And the
    scripture is fulfilled, "When that which is perfect is come, that
    which is in part shall vanish away."
    
    It's nothing for me to get egotistic about, all glory due to God.
    
    Playtoe, In the Spirit of Truth

    
    
    

   Allison
    Allison and Playtoe,
    
<    be interested in developing to true men's fashions of a "sexy" kind, or
<    of a "feminine" kind...which don't really suggest "homosexual"...that
<    would be helpful in this society, and could make you rich.
    
  * Sorry, I'm an engineer.  You used a stereotype of the feminine male
  * fashon designer.  Men can wear what ever they want, if they have no
  * fears.  They certainly do not need me leading them around like sheep.

    At my son's liberal college, several male students wear dresses/jumpers
    to class.  He says they are freeing and comfortable.  Other cultures
    and times allowed men the freedom to wear dresses (kilts, togas, etc).
    I admire the courage of those who can be true to themselves without
    fear or despite fear.
    
    Ro
    

    RE: 69
    
>   be familiar with eastern cultures.  Hijra are roughly equivelent to
>   monks combined with palace guard  There roles are to be androgynous
>   (of both sex meaning).  They are castrated to represent their mixed
>   and blessed state of being.  Of course I could include the full
    
    I reject this as valid support for "transexualism"...this is a
    RELIGIOUS rite, not a personal event.  It has nothing to do with what
    we're talking about...IMO.  Do you really feel these "Hijra" in being
    castrated support your case?  What about the "religious" aspect as
    compelling the castration vs the motivations we're speaking of hear?  
    
><    No.  Are they representing any major practice, ideology or perspective
><    in Western Culture? 

>   Yes. to all of the above.  Psychaitry, psychology, biology, social
>   anthropology... can't touch one without shaking the tree.
    
    No, I mean how big is their following?  Who subscribes to these
    people's ideas, perspective, practice, and have they served in any
    major way to influence or change the way America operates or thinks?
    
>   Ok, I'll soften on that.  I interpret correctly, you mispreceive
>   the way the message is sent.
    
    Whatever...
    
>   You have in the past maintained a postition in other notes whereby 
>   women are to have different passions than men.  That was the origional
>   statement 3 notes ago.  All I added was ok then they must think
>   different.  Now before I can quantify it you have ot acknowlege it
>   or question it.  Here again from .46.
    
>   This might surprize you but conditioning your enviornment is a form
>   of misperception.  You can chose to interact with your enviornment
>   or not to.  Only you change.  If you interact with it it changes
    
    The lesser of two evils...at least I KNOW the elements which into my
    mental conditioning...I never have to wonder how any behavior got
    there.  Man use to be "hunters-gatherers", the he began to "cultivate
    his fields" with selected plants, would you say this is not good,
    better than what he used to do?  ...that's all I'm doing "cultivating"
    my spirit/mind.
    
>   fears to do that in order to reach harmony.
    
    "Harmony"?
    
>   Call it crap and you instantly devalue the statement I made.  You either
    
    No, I just say, take the violins away, just give me the ideas plain. 
    If truth is so obvious to the observer, why dress it up or put
    background music to it?  I'm speaking of the "context of Truth".
    
>   Sorry, I'm an engineer.  You used a stereotype of the feminine male
>   fashon designer.  Men can wear what ever they want, if they have no
>   fears.  They certainly do not need me leading them around like sheep.

    You misunderstand me.  By virtue of you situation you must have a
    better eye than most men for a certain kind of clothing...You are
    stereoptyping the "feminine-male" fashion designer...you've missed my
    point on "modes of expression".  I'm addressing a need, not art.
    
    Playtoe
    
    

    re: 72
    
    Ro:
    
>    At my son's liberal college, several male students wear dresses/jumpers
>    to class.  He says they are freeing and comfortable.  Other cultures
>    and times allowed men the freedom to wear dresses (kilts, togas, etc).
>    I admire the courage of those who can be true to themselves without
>    fear or despite fear.
    
    I asked one guy about "sexy" clothes he had, and he said "komono"
    gown...and that's good, he's right.  That's an article men wear to be
    sexy!  Not an American item, though!  However, from it we get a good
    idea of what might be "sexy" for men...Hummmm, this is an interesting
    topic.  
    
    Playtoe

    re 76
    
>   That wasn't support for transsexualism, that was a statement that what
>   appears to be transsexualism appears elsewhere and there are outlets
>   which permit/endorse that behavour.  that is in agreement with many of
>   the arguements you present regarding the western cultural limitations.
    
    Quite the double talk...if it doesn't support transsexualism then it is
    irrelevent to transsexualism, regardless of appearances.  And you are
    trying to use it in support!  Because you say "and there are outlets
    which permit/endorse (and how about SUPPORT) that behavior."  There are
    outlets, but THIS is not one of them...they are as I indicated, in
    terms of clothing and such.  Having an "operation" ain't nothing nice.
    
>   The average american is unaware.  They are widely respected within 
>   their fields of study.  
    
    Oh, so what am I "above" average or "below" average, or just "NOT
    average" and you won't commit to any more than that, implying nothing
    nice."?  The "average" American?  Pray tell of whom do you speak?
    
    The "average" American don't know much about much of anything, from
    what I hear...they didn't know the name of the President of Iraq?  The
    didn't know the name of judge currently being confirmed for Supreme
    Court...They don't know a LOT of things, but yet you say they know
    about these authors...hummmmm.
    
>   You extracted it, never spoke about it.  ????
    
    I had planned to respond but I really don't understand your issue, nor
    do I think you understand mine.  We are confusing "thinking" with "what
    we think about"...people think about different things, but all people
    think alike, "consistency" of mind (eg loose, pliable, firm) may
    determine speed of thinking process to reach ideas, but basically ideas
    are reached the same in EVERY mind, such that people think alike...
    And this was the issue we were discussing, not that what we think about
    is the same...
    
><    better than what he used to do?  ...that's all I'm doing "cultivating"
><    my spirit/mind.

>   I do the same, and it's my mind.
 
    So you consider yourself as having "misconceived" life, through your
    own mental conditioning?  That's what you said I've "surprisingly"
    done...or is this another double standard, "what's good for the goose
    ain't good for the gander"?
    
    >   
><    "Harmony"?
    
>>   Yes, peace with myself, the world as I currently know it, my higher
>>   power.  
    
    PEACE does not equal, is not the same thing as HARMONY...I thought you
    knew!  Let me explain...if War is a "negative ACTIVITY", and Peace is a
    "neutral STATE" (ie, Peace is NO ACTIVITY, the opposing forces in
    question are both quiet and still), then Peace is not the opposite of
    War...HARMONY, is a "positive ACTIVITY", (IE, WORKING TOGETHER) and is
    the opposite of War...which is another Western misconception!
    
    Many believe they've achieved "harmony" when they've only found Peace. 
    And thus never really find HARMONY, which is the TRUE goal of
    enlightenment...
    
>   translated.   Unfortunatly, I have no concept of male fashon or what
>   they like.  I even resent being called a man, it is equivelent to a
    
    You say you are transsexual, what do YOU like?  Forget what they like. 
    I'm saying what do you like to wear which expresses you "femininity" as
    a male....being the extreme "feminine male" you'd be able to address
    the need lacking in society for such clothing expressions.  
    
    I've still been talking and discovered that WOMEN have the SPECTRUM
    covered!  Women can buy clothing for whatever type they are.  I was
    talking with a black girl from England, and she said she calls her
    "masculine clothing" her "combat clothes", "tight leotards or jeans,
    high boots, muscle shirt" which she wears into conflicts and wants to
    project the image that shes in control and ready to dominate...that's
    the "electrical"/masculine impulse alright!  The "magnetic"/feminine
    impulse, to "attract"...
    
    gotta go...
    

    RE: 77
    
    For the last time, I'm speaking on the topic as I see it...and it is
    relevent.  You are simply refusing to accept the redefined context, and
    that's fine, but again it's not fair to ask that my context be moved to
    another topic simply because you don't agree.  I offer to those who may
    care to hear it an alternative view to the SAME phenomenon you are
    addressing...there's two sides to a coin!
    
    It's not a matter of "proclaiming" any dress as masculine or feminine,
    it's a matter of providing clothing that the individual can wear AS an
    expression of character...we don't need the labels.  The other
    cultures, correct, didn't label them as such, and neither need we.  But
    they made the styles available.  Whereas here in the West the styles
    aren't available...
    
    I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree.  I have that right. 
    You need not pursue the "argument" or "debate" with ME, I didn't
    originate any thing, as you didn't originate your ideas, you, like I,
    merely "adopted" them...and you're no better than me at "adopting"
    better babies/ideas/beliefs...it's not up for comparison.
    
    Just because my ideas are Africanic in orientation does not make them
    unAmerican, because African-Americans are a reality here.  Italians
    bring their ideas, and Jew's theirs and Catholics there, and everybody
    brought something with them...must everyone abandon those things?  Why
    must I?  Or, better yet, why would anyone try to make me, and not
    everyone else...because mine are "savage, heathen and primitive"?  Now
    who figured THAT out?  
    
    Don't get me started...
    
    Playtoe

        May we have a little (few-day) cooling-off period for the
        most active participants in this topic?  (You know who you
        are!)

        Bob

    re; 79
    
>    Um, what about the 'Peace that passeth all understanding'?  I suspect
>    that is the type of 'peace' that Allison alludes to.    
    
    Perhaps, but previously Allison used the term "harmony" and then used
    "peace" as if interchangeable and they are not interchangeable.  It's a
    misconception for those who believe it is...
    
>    That may be your goal Playtoe, but since you, nor I have, have reached
>    total 'enlightenment' (else we wouldn't be here), you can't very well
>    tell us what the *TRUE* goal of enlightenment is for everyone!
    
    I said the true goal of enlightenment is Harmony with God, working
    together with him...can I tell you that, I just did, WILL YOU RECEIVE
    that, it's up to you...but you can't jump on me for telling you that! 
    Lest I can jump on you for telling me that "harmony" is not the true
    goal...we've got to have PEACE, but we don't have to have HARMONY to
    both exist in the same plane. 
    
    Ro, I'm quite sure of what I say, we can entertain the idea if you
    want, and I'm sure you'll agree in the end!  *IF* your honest with your
    SELF!
    
    JUST to illustrate:
    
         -100%---------------------0-------------------+100%
         War                     Peace                Harmony
        Hell                     Earth                Heaven
       Negative                 Neutral              Positive
      
    Simply equation, from those who bring enlightenment doctrine!
    
    
    Playtoe
    

    re: .81
    
    That's the name of our sailboat - "Yin Yang".  
    
    I thought we might stand a"nother" slight out of basenote comment :-)
    
    The boat handles well in "light" air but it's a real thriller when you
    hit a 60+ NM squall.  Imagine being out on the boat when Jesus was
    asleep - betcha I'd be scared out of my wits, too.
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    Re: 82
    
>   One more time.  It's my topic not yours.  You want to redefine things
>   do it in another topic I will join you there and you can have your
>   way as the topic host.  As I am the topic host for this one you are 
>   in my definition of space.
    
    Wrong! It's your topic, but you don't control nor own any replies. 
    I've opened a many a topic and people take it where they want to go.  I
    deal with that but all are welcome...we don't all think the same
    thoughts remember!
    

Allison,

	I'm a bit hesitant to approach this topic out of fear of offending
you.  But it sounds to me like you're inviting us to go ahead and ask, and
thereby, allowing you to de-mystify the various issues surrounding
cross-gendered people.

	First of all, let me share that I've a friend who is in the process
of having a sex change (man to woman).  He is required to live a minimum of
something like two years 'in role' before having surgery.  He changed his
name to one of feminine gender, a name very different from his given name,
and I am having the hardest time remembering to address him using that
selected name.  In addition, I keep stuttering over pronouns in speaking
about this friend to others; sometimes I say "he," sometimes "she."  It feels
very awkward and cumbersome.  Have others at any time expressed to you a
feeling of awkwardness in knowing how to address you and how to speak of
you to others?  If so, what do you say to them?

	Though we've already experienced some of this in earlier entries,
what are some of the most common myths and stereotypes regarding transexuality
that you've encountered?

	How would you recommend that churches and clergy especially reach
out to transexuals?

Peace,
Richard

I watched a segment on 20/20 last night which featured a surgeon who
lives here in Colorado who is considered the finest in his field, sex
change surgery.

I found it very enlightening.  It reinforced the concept that transsexuals
are neither homosexual (same sex attraction) nor transvestite (sexual pleasure
in dressing in garments associated with the opposite sex).  "Cindy," who was
about to have the surgery performed, indicated that all her sexual experience
had been exclusively heterosexual.

Peace,
Richard