Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    Well there are a lot of pagan symbols that have reflections in
    Christianity.
    
    Simplest would be a lot of the customs around Christmas time
    including the time of the Christmas celebration.
    
    The birth of Christ was set in the winter to provide an alternate
    holiday to a traditional mid winter pagan holiday (saturnalia I 
    think).
    
    Much of the traditional decorations - ever greens, holly, mistle toe,
    the yule log, etc are taken from German pagan customs.
    
    Other practices/symbols/themes found both in Christianity and
    earlier pagan beliefs are the dying god who is resurected, the
    blood sacrifice, baptism, confession of sins and personal intervention
    by the god/goddess into human lives including a human woman bearing 
    the child of the god.
    
    Perhaps the similarities are because the indwelling of Christ is
    something that happened out side of time, so that even before
    his incarnation there were echos of the miracle that could be 
    sensed by those who were spiritually atuned.
    
    Bonnie

      Doesn't Easter come form Ishtar, a pagan fertility goddess ?
      The traditional Easter symbols are eggs and rabbits which
      are fertility symbols.

                                                       Mike

    
    Easter, for Christians represent the resurrection of Jesus, but prior
    to this it a Pagan ritual celebrating the vernal equinox, or beginning
    of Spring, the resurrection of life.
    
    I begin to wonder about the term "Pagan" however.  In a sense, the
    Pagan celebrated very real events, but Christians do not.  Jesus wasn't
    born on Dec 25th, and why does the Resurrection date change as it does? 
    
    gotta go...
    
    Playtoe

    St. Valentine, a Roman priest, together with St. Marius and his family,
    assisted the martyrs who suffered during the reign of Emperor Claudius II
    in the 3rd century.  Being apprehended, he was sent to the Prefect of
    Rome, who commanded that he be beaten with clubs and afterward beheaded. 
    He suffered martyrdom about the year 270.
    
    The custom of sending valentines on this day is the revival of an
    ancient pagan practice, which consisted in boys drawing the names of
    girls in honor of their goddess, Februata Juno, on February 15.  To
    abolish this practice names of saints were substituted on billets drawn
    upon this day.
    

	Interesting to note that the term "pagan" originally meant "someone
from the country."  It was typically used by ancient urban dwellers who
maintained something of a snobbish attitude toward their country cousins.
Pagan was roughly comparable to such modern terms as "bumpkin" or "hick."

Peace,
Richard

> and why does the Resurrection date change as it does? 

	Because it's based on the lunar calendar which is not quite in sync
	with the one you and I are more used to. Plus there is a little playing
	around so that Easter comes on a Sunday every year.

			Alfred

Re:  .3

  >Easter... [was] a Pagan ritual celebrating the vernal eqeuinox, or
  >beiginning of Spring, the resurrection of life.

Easter came directly from the Jewish celebration of Passover (as the
Scriptures make abundantly clear) and Christ's death and resurrection
on the third day after the Last Supper.

Collis

    I could be mistaken on this, but I *thought* I heard or read somewhere
    that the etymology of the word "Easter" derives from the name of the
    dawn goddess.  It might be interesting to check on this; it also might
    be interesting to know if it is related to the word "east" (since it is
    the direction where the sun rises.)

    -- Mike

    Collis
    
    It is quiet true, that Easter - as the celebration of the resurection
    of Jesus, comes from the Passover, since Jesus and his disciples
    celebrated the Passover just before He was crucified. However, it
    is also undeniably true that elements of the vernal equinox
    celebrations, of preChristian faiths, have been incorporated into
    our Easter customs and celebrations... such as decorating the churches
    with flowers and the symbolism of eggs and rabbits and their tie
    to fertility. Further the image of the god that dies to be reborn
    in the spring, is one far older than Christianity.
    
    Bonnie

    East is also the direction those in the western hemisphire look
    towards where Jesus died and was re-born.
    
    			Alfred

    
    The origin of the English word "Easter" is uncertain. In the 8th
    century the Venerable Bede proposed that it was derived from the
    the name of the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, Eostre. This view
    has long been popular, but another explanation has been offered.
    In the early church, Easter week was called "hebdomada alba" 
    (white week) because of the white garments worn by those baptized
    at Easter. The plural of white was later misunderstood as the plural 
    of dawn and so translated into Old High German as "eostarum" from
    which the English word Easter was derived.
    
    from the Encyclopedia Americana

As I recall, Easter is calculated something like this:

The first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox.

And this is why Easter might fall in March some years and in late April
other years.

Peace,
Richard

    Re: 12
    
    And how does that correspond with Jesus?
    
    Is it not a Pagan ritual?
    
    Playtoe

    Christianity has assumed some wonderful traditions from Pagan rituals. 
    It is too bad that some Christians equate Pagan with evil.
    
    
    Pat

    Re: 14
    
    Some equate "Communism" with evil too, but surely not by virtue of that
    alone is an individual or nation to be considered evil.
    
    But as innocently as you make it sound regarding Pagan rituals in
    Christianity, many people have died, especially by the hands of
    Christians in Europe, for being thought of as a Pagan, which my
    dictionary says is synonymous as "heathen"....actually I resent the way
    you've so nonchalantly overlooked it (don't take it personally),
    because it was for the fact that Indians and Africans and various
    underclasses of Europe observed such "pagan" rituals that the Roman
    Catholic church authorized and condoned the subjugation, oppression,
    and missionization of them...and now we come to find out that the "Pot
    who called the kettle black" observes, beneath the cloak of terms and
    pomp, many of those SAME Pagan rituals, and you say now it isn't evil? 
    Then if it's not the Roman Catholic church along with European
    governments have greatly sinned in the past, "Thou shalt not bear false
    witness against they neighbor"...and sorry, please forgive us, do you
    honestly think God finds that enough to resolve these matters?
    
    I'm a little upset, miffed, at how conveniently you've seen fit to
    include Pagan rituals in Christianity.  It's not that they are evil,
    but the question is "Are they Christian?"  If not, then they become an
    evil within the domain of Christianity.  Weeds aren't evil of
    themselves, but they become evil in a wheat field when they begin to
    choke out the wheat.
    
    Playtoe

    Playtoe,
    
    I don't think that any of us have actively included 'pagan' rituals
    with Christianity, but rather we have pointed out that many Christian
    symbols and practices are similar or parallel symbols and practices
    found in preChistian and nonChristian religions.
    
    I proposed one reason why this might be so... that the incarnation of
    Christ was an event so profound in human history that echos were
    picked up by spiritually sensitive people both before the event in
    time and in locations far from the physical place where the incarnation
    occured.
    
    I don't think that it is a coincidence that the image of resurection
    of the god who sacrifices for the sins of the people is found in
    so many faiths.
    
    Bonnie

    Re: 15
    
    Let me add...You know what the two most crowded church days of the year
    are?  Right, Christmas and Easter, two christianized pagan
    celebrations.  It's more upsetting when you also realize how the
    majority of people only do "things Christian" at these times of the
    year.  
    
    "They have eyes but cannot see, they have ears but cannot hear, they
    have noses but cannot smell, they have feet but cannot walk, they have
    hands but do not handle the things of God."  (somewhere in the OT)
    
    What should be done about Pagan rituals in Christianity?
    
    Playtoe

    Pagan symbols and practices are in Christianity because they
    are part of a spiritual reality that transcends time and space.
    The indwelling of God in human flesh in the incarnation of Christ
    was a transcendant event that stands outside of time and space.
    It is nothing to be surprised at that other spiritual beings
    encountered this reality and expressed it in their own terms
    with images such as the resurected child of god that was sacrificed
    for others.
    
    This is not a fairy tale, but an expression of transcendant spiritual
    reality. 
    
    and Playtoe, there is no need, as I have said to you before, to
    be personally insulting to me when you disagree with me. Further
    if you comment on my notes then I will reply to your comments.

    
    The matter of Pagan symbols in European Christianity is primarily due
    to the fact that prior to the advent of Christianity in Europe the
    people had long been involved in other forms of religious activities,
    and some were harder to rid the people of than others.  Especially, in
    the cases of the "seasonal change" celebrations, where the people had
    real events to base them upon.
    
    It dawned upon me only recently, that the "Dark Ages" of Europe,
    happened in part due to the effort of European ruling powers attempting
    to suppress the long held beliefs and rituals the people held,
    endeavoring to bring some sense of unity and order to European people
    under the authority of European images and conceptions of life...the
    first attempts at gaining the "power to define", which had for ages
    been done by Egyptians.
    
    Specifically, the December 25th and Spring Equinox rituals were part of
    the Osirian belief system.  Europeans could accept the celebrations of
    Egypt but not the cerebrations, as they rejected the early (Egyptian
    educated) Greek philosophers as "introducing STRANGE GODS"...not
    "strange" in the sense that "we never knew them", but "strange" as
    coming from a "foreign" land, namely Egypt...and not "introducing" as
    if for the first time, but in the sense that these gods were offensive
    to the European ruling powers and they didn't want the masses to learn
    the knowledge of these gods they celebrated for so long.
    
    It's difficult to analyse European beginnings of "nationhood", as a
    great deal of confusion and war, as well as widespread secularism,
    existed in the common classes...in order to put an end to it, and
    instead of "Noah's Flood", books were burned the people suppressed, the
    "Dark Ages" ensued and the lights went out and the curtain was drawn on
    the European theater of social (dis)order.
    
    However, Roman Catholicism served a good purpose for the bringing of
    Christianity to the "Gentiles", even as Jews served a vital purpose to
    that same end...but those were stages or phases the people had to go
    through to get to the "other side"....let us not get "hung up in a
    tree" as they say, by refusing to outgrow that which was meant only for
    time, whose time has ended.
    
    Of course, this perception is somewhat radical, but it is viable and
    quite credible as a way of looking at the situation of early European
    development from a religious historical perspective.
    
    Playtoe
    Playtoe 

     I was talking with some people  the  other  day  and  the  subject  of
     religious practices regarding food (what to eat, what not to eat) came
     up.  It was pointed out that many of these traditions were started for
     rather non-religious purposes which have since become obsolete because
     of new insights or modern circumstances.  Someone then questioned  the
     value  of  continuing  a  practice  when  the non-religious import had
     become extinct, and the thought occurred to me that any practice  done
     for  the  sake  of a higher purpose (religious if you will) is just an
     expression of self-discipline that helps the practitioner focus on the
     higher  vision.   It  seems  to  me  that this would hold true for any
     practice/activity, even if it started out as an adaptation of a  pagan
     one.   If  believers use them to bring their beliefs to mind, then who
     cares, except for academic reasons, why/how any  such  traditions  got
     started?

     Think "Peace",

     Alvin

Hi Playtoe,

You ask if Pagan rituals that have been adopted by Christianity "are 
Christian", and what should be done about Pagan rituals in Christianity.

My perspective is that the rituals in and of themselves are nothing.  What 
they invoke in the person practicing them is what I find important.

What should be done about Pagan rituals in Christianity?  I'd say, celebrate 
them as Christians!

Note that this does not open up a free-for-all.  I think there *are* some
practices which are not compatable with Christianity (child sacrifice comes to
mind...) This also means that there may be some practices that some people, in
their personal Christian relationship could not--in true faith--practice,
while for others they pose no problem. 

I've seen quite a range of attitude to the use of ritual and symbology.  
I've been to simple, unadorned churches with white walls and not much else, as 
well as churches with stained glass representations of Jesus, Mary, and 
assorted Saints and Martyrs, where the smell of incense hung heavy in the air 
(very practical, that, too, back when disease was often spread by the local 
water source and common people couldn't take baths... .-)  For some, "'tis a 
gift to be simple", while for others, the rich tapestry of tradition and 
ritual helps anchor them in their faith.

In my church there are some etched glass panels of several stylized symbols, 
one of which is a Phoenix, a bird that is consumed by fire and risen again 
from its ashes; a symbol of Resurrection.  No, it is not a Christian symbol 
for everyone, not everyone needs accept it as such, but for those who do, it 
is a an excellent pointer to the gift Jesus offered us all.

We bring what we have to God, offer it freely, and receive it back 
transformed.

Peace,

Jim

    re 21
    
    That sounds nice and all, but what does God think about such things
    entering into the Christian faith, Jeremiah, Chapter 10 (?) has
    something to say about the "christmas tree", God says it is a form of
    idolatry.  
    
    If there is no religious impart why isn't it ok to leave it out and
    still perform the ritual...why must it be made a part of the Christian
    practice?  Or, why was it made so?  I know why!
    
    Playtoe

    Hi Jim:
    
    Is it up to us to decide what is Christian practice and what is not?  I
    say it is not up to us.  The only two rituals that I can clearly say
    are Christian rituals CHRISTIANS DON'T EVEN PERFORM :-), namely
    "Keeping the Sabbath", and "Passover", Jesus instructed us to observe
    them...he never said celebrate my birth and ressurrection, he said
    believe in it.  It wouldn't be so bad if we were doing everything Jesus
    had asked us to do and then on top of that went further to celebrate
    the beginning of Spring/Easter and the Winter Solstice/Christmas, but
    when we perform the Pagan celebration, and neglect to perform those
    things asked of us it is a problem...don't you think so?  Put yourself
    in God's shoes for minute, OK so there EXTREMELY LARGE, but...
    
    Playtoe

Hi Playtoe,
Without tossing a `gotcha', some who try to follow the teachings
of Christ do take His admonishments seriously and also support the
Traditions of Abraham and Isaac.

But then again, one might be labeled a fundamentalist for so observing
or observing worshipping  on a different day than Christ's Sabbath
might have more to do with Constantine's preferences than Christ's.

New subject- where did the halo come from, it seems to me this was
something left over from Constantine's sun-worshipping days?
Best wishes,
Rollyn

    RE: 25
    
>Without tossing a `gotcha', some who try to follow the teachings
>of Christ do take His admonishments seriously and also support the
>Traditions of Abraham and Isaac.
    
    I can relate to this...in my heart of hearts I'd like to do more in
    terms of a performance of God's Word, but sometimes you're scheduled to
    work on Saturday's, sometimes Saturday is only day you can get certain
    things done...on the other hand we/I don't have a lot of encouragements
    to do many of the things I have in my heart to do...but Easter's always
    on a Sunday, and we get Christmas off, great encouragements for all to
    participate...and I do myself, right!
    
    But I look at it like this, if Lot could do it I guess I better
    try...Lot was the man at the gate entering Sodom, probably knew every
    dirty joke, all the prostitutes (male especially), he knew who's-who in
    Sodom no doubt, and hold a conversation with the best of them, I mean
    he HAD to be good at it, the GATE KEEPER to SODOM!  But God, through it
    all found him righteous AT/IN his HEART, as he vexed his own soul each
    night about his "filthy conversation".  
    
    It's saying to me that although life may force or influence us to do
    certain things, and even after we know better we still sometimes
    continue to do them...but that is NO REASON to begin to JUSTIFY them or
    forego prayers of forgiveness.  
    
    It's also affirming for me the separation of Body and Mind, of the
    Inner Man and the Outer Man.  That's what Paul is speaking of when he
    says, "In the world but not of the world," and again, "We realize that
    we are like foreigners in the world."  That we come from some other
    reality...if this was our primary reality, we'd probably be like the
    animals, who never become discontent with being just what the are,
    having no aspirations for other realities...we have that unction
    because it IS a truth for us, that we have another place, another land
    from which we come...
    
    Sorry to get off the subject there!
    
    I don't know the story on the origin of the halo, I think it's older
    than Catholicism though, I think halos in the Rig Veda, or Hare Krishna
    faith.
    
    Playtoe

    Hi Rollyn .25,
    
    I would suspect the halo seen around Christ as well as Mary and many of
    the Saints was actually their electromagnetic energy field (called aura
    in some circles).  Scientists are now working on devices that can
    actually measure this field.  It seems plausible to me that their auras
    would be more radiant than the average person's.  FWIW.
    
    Ro
    

    Hi Playtoe,

    Perhaps the most difficult thing about contrasting theology
    from religion is in comparison of theory to action. The theory
    says `Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy'. The action is
    up to us; within the `valuing-differences' vocalization currently
    in vogue surely one's employer would not be upset to hear an
    employee say s/he has religous conflicts working on one day or
    the next, `so long as the employee does not try to take advantage
    of the situation'. In my own stead I have made it quite clear 
    I will not work on Saturday - sundown to sundown but that any other
    time is open, including Saturday evening and all day Sunday, without
    thought of special consideration/compensation.

    However, without wasting too much time, when I was in a position
    of authority and someone claimed personal religous exemption, I 
    watched them. If their standards of practice did not match up to 
    their religous convictions, Heaven help them! God could have their
    souls, but their ... belonged to me!!!

    Back to tangents -
    When I started this note, I asked about customs and traditions from
    Pegan or competing religions, what were they, their origins, and
    in effect how have they blended in to religous practice within 
    Christianity as you have define it today.

    For example the halos, we understand the veneration of saints via
    halos. But where did the symbol come from, what was its previous
    use, when did it start becoming a Christian tradition and has its 
    transfer been consistant?

    Holly at Christmas, what is its orign Duridic, Celtic, Norse? What
    was its previous use or reason for being a symbol & what has it 
    come to mean today within your observation.

    Perhaps your form of Christianity has absorbed traditions or practices
    from competing religions too e.g. Moslem, Tsao, Hindu, & etc. These
    would be interesting to be discussed a little too. 

Best wishes,
Rollyn 

    Re: 28
    
    Hi Rollyn:
    
    Yes, "theory and action", "principle and practice" pose issues which
    are of vital concern to all of our lives.
    
    I think the "theory/principle" aspect has been given greater validity
    since Jesus...well it started with Abraham, "he BELIEVED God, and it
    was counted for righteousness."
    
>    Perhaps your form of Christianity has absorbed traditions or practices
>    from competing religions too e.g. Moslem, Tsao, Hindu, & etc. These
>    would be interesting to be discussed a little too. 
    
    I don't believe in "competing" religions, because there's only ONE
    God.   I don't view the variety of religions as unique systems, but as
    components of a grand system...and in that light, I'd agree with you
    that I have absorbed principles and practices from other
    religions...for instance, after I say my prayer each night, I also
    chant "Words-Sounds of Power" according to Egyptian spiritual
    cultivation teachings (ie AUNG-HUNG-KRING, AUNG-AUSAR-HUNG,
    SHRING-KRING-VANG, and so forth, each word has a specific "POWER" of
    manifestation of life, each represents a certain stage in the process
    of any thing that is manifested, or will ever be manifested.)
    
    I seek the "common threads" in "comparitive religious studies", I don't
    compare to assess the "better or worse" of the two or many, I seek to
    know, through comparison, how they are/can be united or in common with
    one another, under ONE God.
    
    However, the matter of "PAGAN" is itself controversial, my dictionary
    says, "Any one not Jewish, Christian or Islamic; a heathen".  And
    although I don't view PAGAN as an inherently evil description of a
    person or practice, I think calling the PAGAN a "heathen" implies it! 
    Which I feel betrays the self-centered attitude of the national leaders
    and "protectors of the realm" (if you will).  
    
    Anyway, the labels "Pagan", "Gnostic", etc, doesn't carry a lot of
    weight with me, in and of themeselves.  I need to know something of
    one's underlying principles and beliefs in order to make an assessment
    of one's character or justifications.
    
    Playtoe
    of 

    The Olympics are rooted in pagan tradition.
    
    Peace,
    Richard
    

    RE: .31 Richard,
    
    
    			I would agree that they were originally but are now
    political in nature.......on second thought maybe those two words mean
    the same thing! ;-)   Yeah....yer right Richard!
    
    Dave

    re: .31
    	
    Richard,
    	Most things today (whether they be political, athletic, religious)
    have some basis or parallels in "pagan" traditions.  While the Olympics
    may, by some stretch of the imagination, be based on pagan traditions,
    I do not think you could condemn them as such.
    
    George
     

    Indeed.  Much of the liturgy of the Catholic Church, at least, and many
    of our traditional religious holidays are rooted in paganism, or were
    set up to be in competition to pagansim.  The idea, I suppose, was to
    make the forms of practice of the new religion be as familiar as
    possible to people who were used to the pagan forms, and thereby
    attract them to Christianity.
    
    Mike

    .33 George
    
    I'm not particularly in favor of condemning traditions rooted in
    paganism.  Sorry to have led you to such a conclusion if I did.
    
    Richard
    

I heard recently that wedding rings were symbols rooted in pagan tradition.

Richard
    

    The pagan traditions seem to walk a fine line for me. The commandment
    that "thou shall not have false gods before me" is real for me.
    I have a problem when people start praying to crystals or other
    false images (like the TV!).  On the other hand, there are basic,
    human/nature aspects to life that need a celebration. Spring time
    with the re-establishment of life is a natural. Also, during the middle
    of winter the human body needs to party!
    
    Its a fine line.....I quess that the real difference is when the
    worship is directed at a being *other than* God....i.e. mother nature
    then the line has been crossed into false worship.
    
    Wedding rings....nothing wrong with a pagan symbol used to amplify a
    Christian meaning.
    
    Marc H.

    I mentioned in 608.11 that many pagan traditions were in fact mimicking
    Christian traditions for mocking purposes.  For example the occult took
    on the symbol of the Star of David.  Halloween actually has it's
    foundation in Christianity right down to the ghoulish costumes.  They
    were representative of the early Christian martyrs who were tortured
    with spears and other weapons and tools of torture for days before
    dying.  All over the world it's celebrated as a Christian holiday
    except for America whos celebration just started taking on Satanic
    undertone in the last 100 years or so.  I've got an excellent book on
    this and will try to bring it in to share more.
    
    As for the church moving Christian holidays to give people another
    alternative to pagan celebrations, could it be that the church was
    trying to meet the needs of people who might otherwise be lured in by
    the festivities of pagan celebrations.  Sounds like the church was
    meeting people where they were at.  Something that seems to be highly
    valued in this conference.
    
    Jill

>Note 416.38                     Pagan Traditions                        38 of 38
>CSC32::KINSELLA "it's just a wheen o' blethers"      19 lines   2-MAR-1993 12:56
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    I mentioned in 608.11 that many pagan traditions were in fact mimicking
>    Christian traditions for mocking purposes.  For example the occult took
>    on the symbol of the Star of David.  
    
    Jill, do you mean the Pentagram?  If so, the five-pointed star is leap
    in design from the Magen David...do you mean it was adapted from the
    Shield of David?
    
    
>    Halloween actually has it's
>    foundation in Christianity right down to the ghoulish costumes.  They
>    were representative of the early Christian martyrs who were tortured
>    with spears and other weapons and tools of torture for days before
>    dying.  
    
    That's interesting -- I had been under the impression that the
    celebration of Samhain pre-dates Christianity by quite some time...does
    anyone have any documentation on this?
    
    Daniel

>    Jill, do you mean the Pentagram?  If so, the five-pointed star is leap
>    in design from the Magen David...do you mean it was adapted from the
>    Shield of David?
    
    FWIW, I've heard the 5 pointed star called the Star Of Solomon.
    
    		Alfred

    
    Next we'll hear that Brigit, Great Goddess of Ireland, derives from the
    Christian saint...

    Alfred,
    
    Interesting...I've never heard that before.  Do you remember from where
    you heard that?
    
    Just as another clarifier:  I think it is a mistake to confuse Satanism
    with the celebration of Samhain (AKA Halloween).  I have several
    friends who are witches and they are very clear that Satanism and
    witchcraft are not the same thing.  In order to worship Satan, you need
    to believe in Satan -- the majority of witches do not include Satan in
    their Cosmology.  Satanism would be more accurately described as
    "Anti-Christian" because Satan is opposed to God in Christian
    Cosmology.
    
    Daniel

>    Interesting...I've never heard that before.  Do you remember from where
>    you heard that?

    Israel. Touring the ruin of a synagogue in Capernium on the northern
    shore of Kennerit. A guide was explaining the 5 pointed star carved
    in relief in a wall. He could have been wrong. Tour guides stand down
    there with Democrats and reporters in my list of not always credible
    sources. :-)

    			Alfred

    
    Oops...sorry Alfred my mistake on the star.
    
    As I said in my note I do have a book giving lots of details and
    references on Halloween included time references.  It's a very
    interesting book.  I'll try to bring it tomorrow.  
    
    Jill

re.43

	Alfred,

	My wife and I have been considering going to Israel for vacation.

	Any recommendations on how to get about, where to stay, etc. Would
you recommend it? What time of year is best, etc.?

thanks,
ace

>	Any recommendations on how to get about, where to stay, etc. Would
>you recommend it? What time of year is best, etc.?

	It's been awhile. Last time I got about by bicycle and stayed at youth
	hostels. You may want to try something else. :-) I would recommend the
	trip though.

			Alfred

    re: .4
    
    Richard,
    	When you state that the "last summer Olympics (an event rooted in
    pagan tradition...", do you mean to say that the games themselves are
    rooted in pagan tradition or that the rather beautiful opening
    ceremonies had elements of non-Christian mythology?
    	Yeah, I know, way off topic, but if you can move this to a more
    appropriate venue, I'd appreciate it.
    
    George
    

    .47  I'm referring to the games themselves.
    
    Richard
    
    PS  Hope you don't mind me moving your note to this string.
    

    re: .48
    
    Nope, no problems with it being in this string at all.
    
    George