Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

I am not so sure Christ was not married. Not being married in his
time was viewed as a sin. It flew in the face of God's
admonishment to 'go ye therefor and multiply'. Such a fact
would surely have be thrown in His face when ever he confronted
conservative adherants of Moses' law.

People in positions of authority viewed Him as normal. Paul's
marital state was observed and commented upon. And then again
Mary Magdeline's role is difficult to explain; again if
there was a taint of immorality someone would have 
commented upon it.

Best wishes,
Rollyn

    re  .1
    
        "I am not so sure Christ was not married."
    
    What evidence (Biblical and otherwise) do you have that supports this?
    
        "Not being married in his time was viewed as a sin.  It flew in the
         face of God's admonishment to 'go ye therefore and multiply.'"
    
    This comment strikes me as bizarre.  I don't think Jesus (or even that
    culture) viewed the state of being single as "sin," considering 
    Matthew 19:11,12...
    
       "Jesus answered, 'This teaching [on divorce] does not apply to
        everyone, but only to those to whom God has given it.  For there
        are different reasons why men cannot marry; some, because they were
        born that way; others, because men made them that way; and others
        do not marry because of the Kingdom of heaven.  Let him who can do
        it accept this teaching.'"
    
    re .0 Richard,
    
    I am not knocking the institution of marriage, if that was the
    impression you got.  However, contrary to what was stated in 376.1,
    I think singlehood can be just as spiritually and emotionally
    fulfilling as marriage.... in a lot of cases, even more so.
    
    I don't think just because Jesus was "single" -- actually, being One
    with God, Jesus wouldn't have use for such earthbound/physical-world
    manifestations, sexual relations, and so forth, would he? -- doesn't make
    a single person necessarily more "spiritually centered" than a married
    person.  However, having said that, I watch very closely the enormous
    time and energy that my siblings and married friends put into their
    children and, in most cases, energy they put into just working at
    sustaining their love for each other, day by day.  Does this detract
    from time/energy directed toward God/Holy Spirit?  In many cases,
    yes, I think so.  (Just my humble opinion.)  So I think there is
    much to be said for men and women of God -- clergy, mystics, and
    others -- who intentionally do not marry, in part, to devote more 
    of themselves (time and energy) to God, and to do God's work.  I don't 
    think raising children is doing "God's work" necessarily.  On the
    other hand, I am NOT saying that married people cannot devote
    themselves to God or cannot do God's work... just that singlehood
    is more, well, more accommodating/conducive to it.  (I can site a
    lot of real-life examples, if necessary.)
    
    Now that I've opened up a big can of worms...    }8^)
    
    St. Paul   ;)
                                             

    Does Oneness with God imply renunciation of the world?  Or do we
    express God's will through our participation in the world?
    
    -- Mike

    re  .3
    
    It is both, Mike.  The Holy Spirit that flows through our souls expects
    us to renounce that part of the physical world that SERVES the physical
    world, including our physical-world needs in favor of Spiritual world
    needs.  It clearly expects us to serve the Spiritual "Kingdom of God."  
    On the other hand, our participation in the physical world, when directed 
    by the Holy Spirit, does indeed express God's will and does nourish the 
    Spirit.   In other words, our earthly physical-world surroundings serve
    as a catalyst (an educator) through which we proliferate the Holy
    Spirit.
    
    Galatians 5:16 and beyond:
    
    "What I [Paul] say is this:  Let the Spirit direct your lives, and
    do not satisfy the desires of the human nautre.  For what our human
    nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit
    wants is opposed to what human nature wants.  The two are enemies...
    What human nature does is quite plain.  It shows itself in immoral,
    filthy, and indecent actions... But the Spirit produces love, joy,
    peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, humility, and
    self-control..."
    
    John 6:27,32,33...
    
    "Do not work for food that spoils; instead, work for the food that
    lasts for eternal life...:
    
    "...It is my Father who gives you the real bread from heaven.  For
    the bread that God gives is he who comes down from heaven and gives
    life to the world."
    
    Matthew 6:31-33...
    
    "So do not start worrying:  'Where will my food come from?  Or my
    drink?  Or my clothes?'  Your Father in heaven knows that you need all
    these things.  Instead be concerned above everything else with his
    Kingdom ..."
    
    So, to answer your question Oneness with God can and does manifest
    in this earth world, through the Holy Spirit.
    
    Paul

Note 376.2

>    So I think there is
>    much to be said for men and women of God -- clergy, mystics, and
>    others -- who intentionally do not marry, in part, to devote more 
>    of themselves (time and energy) to God, and to do God's work.

I agree.  This what I was trying to bring out in Note 376.0 when I stated:

>Generally speaking, singles may be less restricted in the degree and direction
>of their decisions concerning time, talents and wealth than those who must
>consider another or others when making similar decisions.

The truth is, we would experience an enormous loss in our churches and
in our society without singles.

Peace,
Richard

  Hi Paul,
    
    Gee, usually I agree with much that you write, but on this point I do
    disagree:
    
    << person.  However, having said that, I watch very closely the enormous
    time and energy that my siblings and married friends put into their
    children and, in most cases, energy they put into just working at
    sustaining their love for each other, day by day.  Does this detract
    from time/energy directed toward God/Holy Spirit?  In many cases,
    yes, I think so.......
    
    I think when one finds their 'spiritual partner' (I'm including gay/bi/
    lesbi couples here as well), they can work together to fulfill their
    spiritual purpose together.  That through working with the Holy Spirit,
    the couple can direct more energy/time becoming instruments for God's
    will then they might be able to accomplish alone...that the synergy of
    the two is greater than the sum of the two.  I believe a spiritual
    union that is based on both partners love for God and desire to work
    together can accomplish miracles.
    
    FWIW  ;')
    
    Roey  

re  .6  Hi Roey,
    
    Gee, usually I agree with much that you write, but on this point I do
    disagree

Great minds don't always agree.  ;)
    
    I think when one finds their 'spiritual partner' (I'm including gay/bi/
    lesbi couples here as well), they can work together to fulfill their
    spiritual purpose together.  

I agree.   The key word here is *can*.  A partnership or a marital union
does not necessarily mean a Spiritual Oneness that serves the Holy Spirit.
In so many cases, it leads to physical-world pursuits, not Spiritual
pursuits.   

    That through working with the Holy Spirit,
    the couple can direct more energy/time becoming instruments for God's
    will then they might be able to accomplish alone

Sure, I agree with this too.  Two heads can be better than one... all I was
saying was that the state of being single (without Significant Other,
without children) is by nature more conducive to work through the Holy
Spirit.

    ...that the synergy of the two is greater than the sum of the two.  
    I believe a spiritual union that is based on both partners love 
    for God and desire to work together can accomplish miracles.
    
A blending of energies is powerful, agreed.  But too often couples get
distracted from doing God's work, via raising children, buying them toys,
furnishing their homes, tending to their cats, dogs, tropical fish, and
so many other ways in which a couple with kids massages the comforts
of the material/phsyical world.   Yes, singles DO pusue the material-
world "good life" as well, and they do not have time to "be instruments for
God's will."  But simply put, there are more obstacles/distractions for 
couples raising children than there are for singles, IMHO.

There is nothing Spiritually sanctimonious or magical or special about 
a marital union, unless the couple actively MAKES it so.

Did I dig my hole any deeper, Ro???  ;)
Paul

    Paul, I believe that the actions that constitute doing God's work
    include, among other things, the kinds of things you listed, such as
    raising children, buying them toys, furnishing their homes, etc.  I
    would argue that the love of parents for their children is an
    expression of God's work; in fact, in my view, this is more an
    expression of God's work than a religiously motivated lifestyle of
    continuous withdrawal from the world (such as expressed by the the
    monastic or contemplative life.)  To me we express God's work precisely
    through our participation in the world, and the love that we express
    for others.  To me this includes even the little, everyday things in
    life.  Every time we express our love for another person, we are doing
    God's work.

    That doesn't mean, by the way, that "doing God's work" necessarily
    demands that we all be parents; what I mean to say is that "being a
    loving parent" is an example of doing God's work.

    -- Mike

    Re: .8
    
    I agree with most of what you wrote, Mike.  
    
    Both the path of family life and single life are considered 'vocations'
    by my Church and are santified by God. Giving a testimony to the world
    of God's love by raising a loving and Christian family is, indeed, a
    work which gives glory to God. 
    
    Withdrawing from the world as a religious, or otherwise being separate
    as a devout Christian single, also gives a testimony to the world of 
    God, giving Him glory. 
    
    The life of the devout single proclaims 1) that fleshly and worldly
    desires can be overcome through Christ, and 2) demonstrates both faith 
    and trust is God's promise of the glories of His Kingdom through the
    abstinence and denials that are voluntarily part of that way of life.
    
    The contemplative life that some religious lead is not well understood
    in this day and age; it is often considered to be a type of negative
    personal overindulgence in spirituality. This life of continuous prayer 
    is considered to be of great spiritual support for all the Church and it 
    is considered a specialized calling. Despite how it might appear from the 
    'outside', it is a very demanding life. In Thomas Merton's book, The 
    Silent Life, he said that his abbot observed that it took about 20 years 
    for the typical brother to mature in it's way.
    
    Being faithful to one's calling and 'state in life' is what gives
    God glory. I think it is the individual Christian who has to discover
    not only one's overall vocational calling, but also the proper 'ratios'
    of prayer and service on a daily basis.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
    
    

    Mary, I understand that the contemplative life is very demanding.  In
    fact, I imagine it is very difficult, since it no doubt often involves
    actively fighting against one's own impulses.  And I do believe that
    there is great value in contemplation, meditation, and prayer.

    I might add that Mysticism is an important component of Quakerism. 
    However, the Quaker perspective is one of withdrawal--and then return. 
    It is that second component, of return, and thus active participation
    in the world, that characterizes Quaker mysticism, and which
    distinguishes it from other kinds of mysticism.  That is distinct  from
    the idea of the contemplative life, because it suggests that spiritual
    life is not separate from, or superior to, the physical world, but
    rather enhances and supports it.  The idea is that God's will manifests
    itself through our participation in the world.

    Thomas Kelly, a Quaker mystic and author, wrote of living one's life on
    two levels; while carrying out the day to day activities of life,
    one also can exist in a constant state of communication with God.  This
    represents one way of merging the spiritual life with the mundane.

    -- Mike

re  .8  Mike,

    I would argue that the love of parents for their children is an
    expression of God's work; 

It appears I am not communicating very effectively in this string.  Love
for one's own children -- in fact, love of anyone -- is indeed one of the
most powerful expressions of the Holy Spirit.  In fact, unconditional, 
sustained love of others was one of Jesus's major teachings (though a
lot of Christians these days appear to poo-poo and treat as somewhat
trivial and "mushy" any open display of love between/among humans).  

I did not mean to imply that expression of love toward children, which
manifests in many ways, is not aligned with the Spirit of God.  I do remmember
vividly all the little things that my parents did for me when I was a 
child.  And that was divine expression.

However, I think more complications/distractions come into play in a family 
unit. Which material-world pursuits are expressions of love, serving the Holy
Spirit, and which ones are intended purely to gratify physical-world
urges/desires/comforts?  Which ones are not expressions of love?  

    in fact, in my view, this is more an expression of God's work than a 
    religiously motivated lifestyle of continuous withdrawal from the world 
    (such as expressed by the the monastic or contemplative life.)  

This is a mixed bag.  A religiously motivated lifestyle need not and in
many cases, should not, involve continuous withdrawal from the world.
A single lifestyle need not be an isolationist lifestyle, and in fact,
I think it can be more accommodating toward expressing the Spirit of God
*through* participation in the world, more so than the demanding family
life, attempting to sustain a family in rough/stressful times from day 
to day can take a big toll on someone's spiritual well-being.

    To me we express God's work precisely through our participation in the 
    world, and the love that we express for others.  
    To me this includes even the little, everyday things in
    life.  Every time we express our love for another person, we are doing
    God's work.

I agree completely!  I did not mean to equate "God's work" with withdrawal
from the world.  I merely suggested that married life (with children) often
creates obstacles/distractions/complications with doing the kinds of "God's 
work" you speak about, especially the participatory kind.  In fact, many 
people, when they get married and have children, *do* isolate themselves and 
do not "participate in the world," do not love others, beyond their 
immediate spouse and children.  They often abandon their friends and others
with whom they previously associated.  That is *not* to say those parents who
hunker down and love/associate with only their immediately family are
not doing "God's work."  If they are devoting themselves to, nurturing,
loving their family, obviously they are doing God's work in some form.   
But I am suggesting the nuclear family, by its very nature, can also be 
isolated from, and not partipatory in, the rest of the world.

    That doesn't mean, by the way, that "doing God's work" necessarily
    demands that we all be parents; what I mean to say is that "being a
    loving parent" is an example of doing God's work.

I guess I am saying in general I believe there are more boobytraps and 
distractions in the hectic/demanding family life that might snare someone in
some way and prevent him/her from carrying out God's work (in the ways you
mentioned) than there are boobbytraps/distractions in single life.

Am I making any sense or am I sticking my foot in deeper?  ;)  ;)

Paul