Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

Sharon and I met in Friends Meeting (Quaker).  Each of us had been
married previously.

It wasn't love at first sight, though I learned later that Sharon
was impressed by me when we first met.  At least, she told me so.

Our love grew over long talks with each other, working together
on committees, and sharing our hopes, our fears, and ours dreams.

Peace,
Richard

Sue and I met at the Immaculate Conception Sports Singles Group. I had been 
quite active in the group and was leader at the time. It was not love at 
first sight by any means! I was actually interested in someone else at the 
time. For Sue, it was love at first sight I guess. She tried showing her 
interest in me over the course of a month at various activities. She got 
really fustrated because I didn't pay any attention.
	Finally, we held our annual prom dance and I was playing dee-jay. At 
one point I went over to her and said "Izzi (her lst name), you're mine!" I 
meant just for the dance but she was so happy saying finally. Well at the end 
of the prom she ended up riding with me to go with the group for breakfast. 
Then each of us were afraid of saying anything else. 
	The next day, I called up and asked her to go for ice cream. Before I 
knew it, we were invloved in a loving relationship. Now, we are engaged. We 
are getting married May 16, 1992. We have done many things together 
spirtuality. We are both persuing our paths but the important thing is that 
we have maintained a loving atmosphere for both of us.
	Sorry for rambliing!

Sam

Note 372.2

>	Sorry for rambliing!

Sam,

	Never apologize for talking about what gives you joy to talk about.
Thank you for telling us about it.

Peace,
Richard

    Richard,
    
    Not applicable.  I have not yet met my 'life' partner.  Sorry I can't
    contribute more to this topic.  Sigh.
    
    Paul

    Re: .4
    
    Paul,
    
    	See Note 371 "Dating in the '90's."  This may be where you can
    add some light.
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    I could have written your response, Paul.  I got slightly depressed
    when I saw this topic.
    
    I'm still slightly depressed because of the fact that our society tends
    to operate on and give extra credit to those who are part of a couple. 
    And then I recall that my daughter and I, who are life partners in that
    we share a life and family, got a couple-gift for Christmas this year,
    a set of pots and pans so we can cook together without burning
    everything we make.  :-)  This made me feel a little more included in
    this world that values couple-dom so highly.
    
    Nanci

Nanci,

It is a delicate balance that is hard - affirming those who are 
part of a couple while not ignoring/discriminating against those
who are not.  I sympathize with your feelings.

I met my wonderful wife in a singles groups at Grace Chapel named
YES (for Young Effective Singles).  The emphasis was fellowship and
Biblical instruction.  The group varied in size from 35-90 attendance
and has since become defunct.  But not without first graduating :-)
many singles into couples.  These other couples are counted among
our best friends and my wife currently has a play group once a month
with 8 mothers and 11 kids - with all the mothers our friends from
Grace Chapel (almost all from YES).

We knew each other a year before we did anything together.  It was
another year before I visited her when she was sick and that ended
up being our first date (although it was not a date at the time).
A year (actually 364 days) later I proposed, Robyn accepted and we
were on our way.

After we had dated for about 8 months (February), I was pressuring Robyn to
think marriage - something she was unprepared to do.  This put quite
a strain on the relationship.  Under God's prompting, I told Robyn
that I wouldn't pressure her and that I would not ask her to marry me
until I *knew* that she would accept.  Things immediately got better
and on June 14, 1985 while I was working late, it "occurred" to me that
I should ask Robyn to be my wife.  On that very same night 35 miles
away, it "occurred" to Robyn that she should accept should I propose.
Neither one of us had talked about marriage for months.  On the next
night, God brought us together into engagement.  Thank you, LORD.

Collis

    .6  Nanci,
    
    Good points.  Come to think of it now, I *do* have several "lifelong
    partners" in my life.  Some very loyal friends (male and female) and
    a few family members.  I know I can count on them for anything (and 
    they me) and I know they will never knowingly or inadvertently turn 
    away from me when they get attached/married to their own 
    Significant Others.
    
    I essentially agree.  Our society seems too "couple" oriented.  When
    we're not in a relationship, we put out SO much energy trying to get
    into one -- well, most of us, anyway -- that we fail to see the love
    that comes via the bonding in non-Significnat Other relationships in
    our lives.
    
    I heard Dr. Leo Buscaglia lecturing once, and he got pretty miffed at
    couples who maintain they have to withdraw love from one (non-primary)
    person/relationship in order to put it into another (primary) person/
    relationship.  He said, "And who would you choose to exclude?  And for 
    what good reason?   The nature of love is not finite, where you have to 
    reallocate it here and reallocate it there.  It is infinite.  Yes, you 
    *can* keep giving more and more and more to all."  Pretty wise words,
    IMHO.
    
    I think the concept of "family" does indeed stretch beyond the Donna
    Reed type of nuclear family (Ward and June Cleaver?) we witnessed
    in the 50s.  And family ties need not involve common bloodlines.
    
    Paul
    

Note 372.8

>    I essentially agree.  Our society seems too "couple" oriented.  When
>    we're not in a relationship, we put out SO much energy trying to get
>    into one -- well, most of us, anyway -- that we fail to see the love
>    that comes via the bonding in non-Significnat Other relationships in
>    our lives.

Paul and Nanci,

	I'm certain you both realize my intentions were benign in opening
this topic.

	I affirm all you've said.  I've been there myself.  At the same time,
I must confess that it seemed to me to be a couple-oriented society only until
I married (or remarried), and then it suddenly became a singles-oriented
society again.  Much entertainment and advertising is strategically aimed
at singles and persons who would like to be single, if only in their
fantasies.

	I think it has a lot to do with the "grass is always greener"
syndrome.  There are a lot of married people who are desparately lonely
and who believe they've made a grave mistake either in the selection of a
life partner or in marrying altogether.

	Since this topic is drifting a bit, I shall open another topic
celebrating singlehood.

Peace,
Richard

    Re: .7
    
    Collis,
    
    Such a glowing account.  Thank you!
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    re   .4  Richard,
    
        "See Note 371 'Dating in the '90's.'  This may be where you can
         add some light."
    
    Thank you, no.  I would rather not for personal reasons.  
    
    However, I think I can shed some light in your new topic, "The Single
    Experience."
    
    Paul
    

    Richard - 
    
    I did understand your motivation for starting this topic and I also
    felt that it was necessary to make the point about this being a
    couple-oriented society.  I happen to be particularly sensitive about
    this at this time of year.
    
    Not to worry, no offense was taken.
    
    hugs,
    Nanci

 
     Geeze, let me see if I can remember that far back to when I
 was introduced to Elaine. ( Just kidding )
      I was introduced to her by our mutual friend Jeff when I was
 living in New York City. We became good friends and almost inseparable
 companions. We had a wonderful time as "best friends" for a couple of
 years and neither of us considered our relationship to be the least 
 bit romantic in nature.
      After a couple of years it finally dawned on us that as best friends
 we had a more caring and stable relationship than a lot of people who
 did consider themselves as romantically involved. At this point we moved
 in together (Shock and horror !!) Then about a year later when we were
 cooking liver and onions for breakfast ( I am not making this part up )
 I asked her to marry me right there in front of the stove in our cramped
 little NYC apartment kitchen. ( What could be more romantic ?)
       In a life marked by some monumental blunders having married my
 best friend stands out as the smartest thing I have ever done. Through
 thick and thin, through good times and bad, Elaine has always been there
 beside me.  


                                                              Mike       

    

    My spouse and I met while taking a Winterim course in seminary four
    years ago.  The course was a weeklong course in the mountains of 
    Shrewsbury VT - the place where the moose came out of the woods several 
    years ago and fell in love with the cow - if you remember that story
    which put Shrewsbury on the map.
    
    The course was "Ministry in the rural environment" and had six
    seminarians, a noted small church pastor and writer, and the people of
    the rural community.  What a great experience that was!
    
    Now, status is that I graduated with an MDIV two years ago and just
    had my licensed ministry renewed.  She has seven more courses and then
    we hope and pray for a shared ministry.
    
    We really enjoy working on scripture together and enjoy our differences
    (most of the time!).
    
    Now I'm off to lunch with her at a local Chinese restaurant!
    
    Happy New Year!
    
    	Shalom,
    
    	Ron
    

    .14
    
    Question:  If a moose falls in love with a cow, is it a sin?
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Answer:  Only if they engage in extramating-season sex.
    
    Paul
    

dating and coupling are considerably different for gay people,
both men and women. meeting someone, especially for those of
us who live outside the big city ghettoes, is difficult at best.
patience and persistence, good advice for heterosexual people,
is absolutely essential for gay folk.

i was introduced to ken by a mutual friend (a college administrator
at a local university) sometime in the late 1970s. ken had just
come out although he was in his late 20s. we had several conversations
over the next 6 or 7 years including one in a parking lot about the
impossibility of relationships. i laugh now to think that the one
time he drove me home (i have lived without a car most of my life)
and i offered him a cup of coffee. ken thought i was inviting him
in for sex and politely declined (he was in a relationship at the time).
i got huffy and told him off... if i wanted him to come in for sex
i would of said so!

then the last saturday nite in December of '84...i was in grad school
at the time..i got my grades (all "A"s) and i decided i would go out
to the club to celebrate. (where i live there is only one gay public
space for 50 miles in any direction, necessarily nearly everyone knows
everyone else, and to call it a "bar" is a mis-characterization. besides
we all call it "the club" which is more of what it is). so i was in
a particularly good mood, i said hello to ken and we chatted briefly,
i said hello to most of the other people, too. i spent most of the evening
talking with my deaf friends. i was floored when ken asked me back
to his house for a cup of coffee. <big grin>

we dated for nearly a year before i insisted that either we move in together
or cease seeing each other. since gay people don't legally marry, couples
celebrate various dates as their anniversary. being more gay-traditional
i prefer marking that saturday night, ken considers that un-romantic
and prefers when we agreed to "marry". no problem, the roses are red no
matter what the calendar says.

peter

    RE: .16  Peter,
    
                     I had to laugh at myself just now.  I read your note
    and then read your title "entered with great trepidation" and I
    wondered why you wrote that title.  :-)  I guess I'm more "liberal"
    than I thought.  BTW....thank you for sharing your story!  I think its
    great that you have found a relationship in which your comfortable even
    though the world as a whole might not *YET* be.
    
    Dave

    Re: .13
    
    Yours could be the foundation for a great romantic movie script!
    Thanks, Mike.
    
    Blessing upon both of you,
    Richard

    Re: .14
    
    My hopes and prayers of shared ministry accompany yours.
    
    Peace and blessings,
    Richard

    Re: .16
    
    peter,
    
    	I commend you.  I am aware of the risks involved in sharing
    so candidly about your relationship with Ken with us.  I know the
    world presently offers little affirmation for gays.  In Christ,
    I offer you mine.
    
    Blessings on you both,
    Richard

    My first introduction to my wife was a letter more or less out of the
    blue. I was away at college. A Christian group from the college near
    my home was starting a "coffee house" ministry in the church my father
    pastored. They wanted to use a "black light" in the decorations. I
    owned one and my father suggested to one of the group leaders that
    she write me and ask if they could use it. This is a little unusual
    because normally my father would have just borrowed it knowing, quite
    correctly, that it would be fine with me. She wrote and I wrote back.
    
    Nothing more happened until I came home for a vacation. I went to the
    coffee house and walked in just in time to see a very attractive woman
    (actually two but I really noticed one :-)) singing. After that she
    spotted me as "new" and came over to talk. We continued to talk every
    time I came home and that summer we started dating. (Which is s story
    in itself.) We went through a break up period at one point but I
    realized that she was right for me and after I graduated we started
    dating again. A year or so later we married. It will be 15 years next
    month.
    
    One side note. I was in school in Indiana while Thelma was in NYC.
    At one time when our long distance relationship was a little rough
    Thelma had some doubts about us being "right" together so she was
    praying for some communication from me. This was unknown to me but
    she had a deadline to hear from me. At about the same time I found
    out that a class from my school was making a bus trip to NY. On
    litterally no notice to anyone I hitched a ride with them. My father
    was quite surprised to see me. Thelma was even more so. :-) I think
    Gods hand was in it.
    
    			Alfred
    

    re  .16
    
    Thank you Peter for your story.  You've got a lot of courage.
    
    To those who might be disgusted by Peter's story, let me just say
    I do not believe Christ taught conditional love.  Contrary to what
    some may believe, there are not 28 different flavors of love, only one.
    And that one flavor is just as sweet, irrespective of WHO we love.
    That it is OK to love certain types of persons, but not others,
    boggles the mind.  And it's inconsistent with the Spirit of Christ.
    
    Many blessings Peter to you and yours,
    P. 

    Note 379 "The social status of singles and couples" has been
    created to accommodate the drifting from this topic.  Replies
    372.23 through 372.31 have been moved to serve as foundation.
    
    I regret that a better topic title didn't come to me.  If anyone
    has a suggestion for a better one, let me know.
    
    Richard Jones-Christie
    Co-moderator/CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE

I met my life partner through my brother.  The two of them were running around
together.  I was 13 at the time, Bob was 22.  We started dating when I was 15
and got married when I was 17 and still in high-school.  We started out as 
pals, got to be best-friends, then it blossomed to love.  Last October we 
celebrated our 20th Anniversary.  And we are looking forward to at least
another 20, and another 20, and another 20.....  ;-)  Still very much in love.

Judy

Note 372.21

>    My father
>    was quite surprised to see me. Thelma was even more so. :-) I think
>    Gods hand was in it.

It certainly sounds like it, Alfred.  Thanks for sharing that.  The
longevity of the relationship you and Thelma share speaks volumes.

Peace,
Richard    

> And we are looking forward to at least
> another 20, and another 20, and another 20.....  ;-)  Still very much in love.

Judy,

	If any two people are capable of such enduring love, it is surely
you and Bob.

Peace,
Richard