Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I think I like C.S.Lewis's version of Heaven in the last of his
    Narnia books best. Heaven is the large and more perfect version of
    all the created worlds. Their 'real' version (to take from
    Plato and his cave here.) I'd like to live in Narnia for a few
    eons. :-)
    
    Bonnie

	Saturday night was *great*!  I learned Saturday morning that
one of my all time favorite performers was appearing that evening
in Colorado Springs.  The tickets were $13 per person -- more than
I'd ever spent before on a concert.  But it was well worth the money.
There is no voice, no style, and no charisma quite like Richie Havens'.
To this aging flower child, these two hours were a slice of Paradise.

Peace,
Richard

    One of the more common selling points of Christianity, at least among
    its evangelical adherants, is the promise of "eternal life".
    
    Why do so many people feel the need to survive after they die?  My own
    feeling is that the one life here on earth is more than enough for me;
    I have no desire to stretch my conscious experience out to eternity.
    
    -- Mike

    Hi Mike!
    
    >>Why do so many people feel the need to survive after they die?  My own
    >>feeling is that the one life here on earth is more than enough for me;
    >>I have no desire to stretch my conscious experience out to eternity.
    
    Yeah, you say that now, but who is to say that if you had a glimpse
    of what Eternity is like you wouldn't want to stretch your conscious
    experience. ;^)
    
    Even though thinking of eternity scares the hell out of me at times, 
    I actually do long for it.  There is NO WAY this could be it, there 
    has to be something more than "life on earth". 
    
    j
    

    
    Re.4
          "There has to be something more than life on earth."
    
    
           Why ?
    
    
    
    
                                                               Mike

    Re: 3
    
>    Why do so many people feel the need to survive after they die?  My own
    
    It's not so much that people feel the need to "survive after they die",
    it's more proper to say people feel the need to "never die"...I think
    it is VERY good that we could live forever.
    
    Furthermore, I believe the whole point, the central focus of Jesus and
    Christianity is "Eternal Life".  To be a Christian and not desire to
    have Eternal Life, is like going to college and not desiring a degree,
    or sitting at the dinner table and not desiring to eat a meal, or
    getting in your and not desiring to drive it anywhere...people do those
    things but...it reminds me of a saying a person told me once, "A ship
    is safe in the harbor, but that's not what it was built for".  
    

    I have no doubt that Christians in general *are* attracted to their
    faith because of the end goal that it proposes to offer them--namely,
    eternal life.  Perhaps that is, for them, the fundamental reason for
    their faith, especially if they believe that the price of non-belief is
    to be denied "salvation".

    I can't speak for whether it is possible to be a Christian and not
    desire Eternal Life, since I don't identify myself as a Christian.  I
    can only speak for what my own spiritual life means to me, and the
    issue of life after death is for me irrelevant, except as a topic of
    idle speculation.  I don't know what comes after death, if anything. 
    If there is an afterlife, I will probably discover it in due course. 
    It isn't what defines my spirituality, and it isn't the reason for my
    choices regarding the religious life, which I consider its own reward.

    To me, death, while tragic in so many ways, is ultimately what defines
    our lives and gives it meaning.  Yes, we generally all have a certain
    (presumably biological) instinct for self-preservation.  But in another
    sense, I see my own inevitable death as something necessary, something
    that  that gives a completeness and importance to my life (and the
    lives of others).

    -- Mike

    Hi Mike,
    
    >>      "There has to be something more than life on earth."
    >>       Why ?
    
    I think its because we're instrinsically determined to long for 
    something more then what we have now.  I think its amazing how
    our nature is set up.  Our will can only choose between limited
    goods because there is nothing in the world right now that is
    unlimited in goodness.  All of us deep down inside long to find 
    that ONE thing that will satisfy us in ALL ways.  
    
    I do believe however, that heaven and hell begin here.  The enjoy-
    ment of life on Earth, for the most part, depends heavily on us.
    So, I do believe that someone can be very content, and happy here
    on Earth.  I don't believe that someone can be completely content,
    and completely happy. 
    
    The Lord be with you,
    
    j    
    

    Hi Mike,
    
    >>I can't speak for whether it is possible to be a Christian and not
    >>desire Eternal Life, since I don't identify myself as a Christian.  I
    >>can only speak for what my own spiritual life means to me, and the
    >>issue of life after death is for me irrelevant, except as a topic of
    
    Last year, I was reading a book that dealt with Islam.  There was
    this Islamic woman that lived, I believe, sometime before 1000 ad.
    I guess that she was a very repected prophet or visionary (or
    something to that effect), and someone saw her carrying a bucket
    of water and torch one day and asked her where she was going.  She
    said, (something to the effect) "I am going to take the water and 
    estinguish the fires of hell and take the torch and burn heaven,
    so that people will stop loving God for the wrong reasons."  I think
    there is some truth in what she said. 
    
  >>  To me, death, while tragic in so many ways, is ultimately what defines
  >>  our lives and gives it meaning.  Yes, we generally all have a certain
  >>  (presumably biological) instinct for self-preservation.  But in another
  >>  sense, I see my own inevitable death as something necessary, something
  >>  that  that gives a completeness and importance to my life (and the
  >>  lives of others).
    
    That is VERY profound, and very true.  Thanks for the insight.
    
    Peace be with you,
    
    Jeff

    Jeff,
    
    That is an interesting story.  Thanks for sharing it.
    
    -- Mike

re: Note 351.6 by Playtoe

>    It's not so much that people feel the need to "survive after they die",
>    it's more proper to say people feel the need to "never die"...

And yet we all must die.  Even Jesus died, it is part of the path we follow.

Personally, I would be a Christian even without the hope of Heaven.  To me, 
to be a Christian is to respond to the love of God, this day, this hour, this 
moment.

Peace,

Jim

    I was eating a gourmet breakfast in the Burger King yesterday morning,
    and there I heard the song "House on Pooh Corner".  I found myself
    singing along with it, because it happens to be one of my favorite
    songs.  The reason I love that song so much is that it speaks to the
    bittersweet feeling I often experience for a kind of lost innocence. 
    The song is almost a perfect expression of that feeling.  The singer is
    lost, and has to get back to that innocent world (where the most
    important thing to be done is count all the bees in the hive), but you
    know somehow that the singer will never get back, and thus the song is
    rather sad.

    Isn't that really what the Garden of Eden myth is all about?  And in a
    way, isn't a belief in Heaven also another expression of the desire to
    go to an innocent existence, where all is good, harm and evil are gone,
    and to boot it never ends?  I have to admit that I often mourn the fact
    that we live in a world in which people are hurt and suffer, in which
    motives are not always pure and people deliberately harm others.  The
    idea of returning to the House on Pooh Corner, or turning around and
    going forward to an afterlife that will be eternally blissful, is
    certainly attractive.

    -- Mike

    My feelings about the concept of heaven are very like yours, Mike.  It
    sounds good on paper, doesn't it?  :-)  However, I don't believe in the
    concept of heaven being a reward for having "gotton through" one's
    existence on earth.  I believe that heaven is something we all carry
    around with us, whether we're concious of it or not.  To me, heaven is
    the relationship of one's constant communion with the divine within us. 
    Maybe I'm a cock-eyed optimist but I believe that if we truly heal the
    mental and spiritual illusion that we're somehow seperate from God, then 
    we can create heaven in our lives here and now.
    
    Nanci

        <<< LGP30::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE.NOTE;1 >>>
                 -< Discussions from a Christian Perspective >-
================================================================================
Note 9.1005                   The Processing Topic                  1005 of 1005
CSC32::J_CHRISTIE "Pacifist Hellcat"                 27 lines  22-MAR-1994 22:01
                         -< Cross-posted to topic 351 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    .1004 Deacon David Dawson,
    
    	I'm not so sure Heaven is a realm which is realized after bodily
    functions cease.  I've spoken of this in the Salvation topic and
    the Everlasting Life topic.
    
    	Heaven, to me, is God's Kingdom.  Moreover, it is God's Kingdom
    come, God's will be done on earth.  Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God
    in terms of both the present and future, of both the already and the
    not yet.
    
    	I don't believe Peter stands at the pearly gates of the cloud-
    carpeted entrance to Heaven directing admissions and rejections of
    deceased souls.
    
    As a bit of an aside:
    
    	I remember hearing about a famous man (whose name doesn't come to
    mind) who had a dream.  In his dream, he had died and gone to Heaven.
    Shocked and alarmed, he told the beings there that he had been an atheist
    while alive and that some dreadful mistake had been made that he was
    actually gaining admittance to Heaven.  The angelic beings said to him
    something like, "We're sorry, but that's really something you don't get
    to decide."
    
    Peace,
    Richard

    
    Yes, isn't it that verse that the Kingdom of God/Heaven is right here,
    yet y'all don't see it.  ???  (paraphrased, of course)
    
    Cindy

Re: .14 Richard

>    	I remember hearing about a famous man (whose name doesn't come to
>    mind) who had a dream.  In his dream, he had died and gone to Heaven.
>    Shocked and alarmed, he told the beings there that he had been an atheist
>    while alive and that some dreadful mistake had been made that he was
>    actually gaining admittance to Heaven.  The angelic beings said to him
>    something like, "We're sorry, but that's really something you don't get
>    to decide."
    
Isaac Asimov.

				-- Bob

    Cindy, Heaven is God's Kingdom... where He sits on His throne.  Is God
    on the Throne, right here?  

re: Note 351.17 by Nancy "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" 

>    Cindy, Heaven is God's Kingdom... where He sits on His throne.  Is God
>    on the Throne, right here?  

Is God not omnipresent?

Peace,

Jim

    > Is God on the Throne, right here?
    
    There is a double-entendre here that I find wickedly funny. :^)
    

    .19 :-) Yeah well.. 
    
    .18
    
    What does Omnipresent mean?  That he is everywhere... there is a big
    difference between presence and ruling.
    
    The only way a King can rule is to have subjects.  This earth, the
    world is not subjecting themselves towards God.  If you think
    differently,  I'd like to know how you came to this conclusion.
    
    

re: Note 351.20 by Nancy "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" 

Does God have a different nature here as opposed to heaven?

Peace,

Jim

p.s.  I like your personal name.

    .21
    
    In what manner?  I'd say yes and no.  He wants to be Lord to all.  In
    heaven He IS Lord to all.  Tis not the same on earth.

    
    Re.a few
    
    Nancy,
    
    There is the concept of a Personal God, and there is the concept of a
    Non-Personal God.  I do not believe in a Personal God like the kind who
    is separate from Creation and sits on a throne somewhere.  I think of
    the saying "God on His Throne, and experience it as a metaphor as
    opposed to taking it literally.  
    
    Cindy
                                   

    .16  Thanks, Bob Messenger.
    
    Richard
    

    Hi Cindy,
    
    I'm curious, how did you come to this concept?

    .25
    
    Before Cindy responds, I would just like to say that my own belief
    is not far from Cindy's in this area, but that I doubt that she and
    I arrived at the concept in the same way.
    
    Richard
    

    .26
    
    I didn't ask you. :-) :-)
    
    No, jus' kidding.  Please share with me if you wish, how you came to
    yoru conclusions and how they differ from Cindy's.
    
    

    
    Re.25
    
    Nancy,
    
    Well...to me it's not really a concept anymore, but an experience.
    To most though, it is a concept, so that's why I wrote 'concept'.
    
    In note 398.56, you can read an experience that a swami had, that 
    is similar to an experience that I had.  Only sometime after the
    experience, though, did I read the text that is in this entry.
    
    At the same time, though, as you also read in the story, the swami
    did not believe in a non-Personal, omnipresent God either until he 
    had the experience.  So which is true and correct?  Well, I'd say that
    both are right.  The difference is the state of consciousness/awareness
    that the person is in at any one time.    
            
    Cindy
                                          

    .28
    
    We do have very similar beliefs albeit down different paths.
    In your path there are no absolutes, on my path there is.
    
    On your path a state of awareness precludes view of God
    On my path growth is ever presence, but never questions the Absolute of
    who God is
    
    Similiar, dismilar...
    

    
    Re.29
    
    >On your path a state of awareness precludes view of God
    
    Can you explain this a bit more?  I'm not sure what you mean.
    
    Cindy

    God is who you *perceive* him to be... in whatever form it takes.
    
    If this is incorrect, please explain.

    Re.31
    
    Or Her. (;^)
    
    In the non-dual non-Personal experience of God, one recognizes that
    absolutely everything is God.  However, one has to be in a very high
    state of awareness to experience this.  Perception of this state is
    gained only by the grace of God.  One can work toward and prepare one's
    self for it, but only God can ultimately give it.  This glimpse, I can
    only describe it as the quote that Christ uttered saying, "The Kingdom 
    of Heaven is here, and yet you do not see it."  I lack the words to
    explain it.  In fact, when I was in that state, I could not speak.    
    It also made the quote, "I and my Father are One", much more real. 
    At-one-ment - state of ecstatic grace.    
    
    I haven't personally seen God on a throne somewhere though, so I can't
    vouch for that absolute view of God.  It may be true...I don't know.  
    Have you seen/experienced this glimpse?
    
    Cindy
                                          

    I also see God sitting in Heaven on a throne, using the earth as a
    footstool, as an anthropomorphic metaphor.
    
    Jesus is my example.
    
    Richard