Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I'm not sure which man is your father, Mike, the minister or the
    sufferer.  Whichever it is, I pray for his continued strength, and
    eventual delivery from pain, and for his wife's continued support and
    love.
    
    On the central topic, the Catholic tradition teaches that giving way to
    despair is itself a sin because it denies God's power and the supremacy
    of His Will.
    
    With love,
    
    Brian.
    

    Sorry for not making that clear--the man on dialysis is my father.
    Thanks, Brian, for your concern.
    
    I am curious about that teaching (that giving in to despair is a sin). 
    Does the Catholic Church teach that everything "bad" that happens to us
    is ultimately God's will?
    
    -- Mike

    Mike,
    
    I certainly don't think that is the way it would be put, because that
    would then deny the existence of free will.  However, the Church
    certainly subscribes to the part which says "Thy Will, not mine, be
    done."  Eventually, despite the fact that every individual uses his own
    free will, and this can often be detrimental to another individual,
    there can be Divine intervention, and this is particularly prayed for
    in areas where a detriment is not caused by another human being, e.g.,
    illness.  It is not that God wills the illness, hurt etc., but that we
    pray to be delivered from it if that helps the Divine Plan, about which
    we know so very little.  
    
    I hope that all makes sense, this being a quick lunch time response.
    
    With love,
    
    Brian.
    
     

    Yes, Brian, this does get back to the free will discussion again,
    doesn't it?  :-)

    I do realize that the Church is not saying that God wills the
    suffering.  But if God intervenes to end suffering in some cases, and
    not others, then this implies that an omnipotent God is always making
    the final decision as to whether or not people will be healed or not. 
    That means to me that the omnipotent God is in a sense ultimately
    responsible for what happens to people when they get sick, even if that
    responsibility means nothing more than sitting back and allowing to
    happen what he could have prevented.  If God decides not to use his
    power to intervene, then he has made the ultimate decision that it is
    better not to do so, so he has in effect willed the suffering to
    continue.

    And if prayer can affect God's decision to heal people, does that mean
    that a friendless person who no one prays for is less likely to be
    healed by God than someone who has lots of Christian acquaintances? 
    Can God be (in effect) finagled by prayer into intervening in the
    world?
    
    -- Mike

	Great but difficult questions. I've tried without much luck to answer
	some of them in the past. I do have a few thoughts but not a lot in
	final form.

	One general thought is that God sticks His healing hand in (or not)
	for various reasons. One reason has to do with what is best in His
	eyes. If for example he believes that a dying person alone and without
	a friend may come to know God directly or indirectly as a result of
	a healing than He may do it. On the other hand if God believes that
	a believer dying with a long painful sickness can show God in them
	through their continued faith He may not heal them or release them
	early. This sounds somewhat unfeeling for the person but relates to
	a view that there is a greater good to come from it for others. Also
	there is the old saying "Great shall be your reword in heavan." Are
	some people given greater rewards in heavan? I don't know but it
	sounds reasonable. And we'll spend a whole lot more time there than
	here.

	I remember when my grandmother was in her last years. She had been
	alone after my grandfather had died for a couple of years. Her health
	wasn't particularly bad but she was tired and ready to "go home." She
	was still willing to leave it up to God though. Perhaps if her health
	was worse she might have wanted to rush it. I don't know. I know that
	if I was dieing I would be very tempted to rush it if there was no
	hope. Especially after a long full life. I would have to decide if there
	was more that I believed God had for me to do here. If I believed there
	was I'd feel I had to stay. I would probably not be willing to have
	doctors use extra ordinary means to keep me alive but normal means
	would be ok. 

			Alfred

    This can be a very important "string"...as the situation in .o can and
    is very similar to my own father's health. I have never had a good
    answer to "why the suffering". I have been reading the book of Job for
    help. I haven't finished the book yet......
    
    Awaiting more replies!
    
    Marc H.

Mike,

Very interesting topic, and I very much sympathize with your father's 
situation.  I have known people in similar circumstances and it is not 
an easy matter to deal with on the part of anyone involved, but 
especially for your father.  While I am not inclined to address the 
topic specifically, I would like to offer some ideas in relation to the 
type of situation your father is facing.

In working with very ill and terminally ill people in the past I have 
found that there are ways for them to improve their experience of life, 
even in the face of such despairing circumstances.  The key is to 
restore or enhance the *meaning* in their lives.  We can get beyond the 
disabilities and add value to life if we can come to see a purpose in 
our lives which overshadows and is more important than the pain and 
encumberances we experience.  If we manage to do this, then we overcome 
the adversity.  The "problem" doesn't necessarily go away, but it is 
overshadowed by something more important, and as a result the despair 
vanishes.  Despair occurs when we have lost focus of all but our pain.  
Regain the focus and the despair disappears.

This is much easier to do if there has been a significant, recognized 
purpose in one's life in the past.  Then it need only be regained.  If 
the life has been lived without any recognition of purpose, then the 
task is far greater.  But this is where loved one's can help those in 
need of assistance.  The task is to get the person's attention outside 
of themselves, whether it be through family, study, service to others, 
or anything from which there can be a recognized value; something to 
live for.

Your father, for example, has demonstrated that he is not past being 
able to latch onto something.  He demonstrated this by listening to your 
mother and deciding to get counseling from a minister.  This tells me 
that he is open, if not desirous, for alternatives.  It is difficult, 
not knowing him, to make specific recommendations, but family should 
know him well enough to help guide him into something productive.  

Even in the midst of despair we have the choice to seize the day and 
give it meaning.

Jeff

    Re: Basenote
    
    First, I'd like to comment on "Free Will".  The Lord says, "I place
    before you a choice, life or death"...it says to me that we have free
    will to choose, but the questions and issues are determined by God. 
    Free Will is not, therefore, an "Absolute", but a relative freedom. 
    Perhaps, the misconception of "free will" being an "absolute" is
    responsible for many who also say, "I can do it, understand it, serve
    the Lord, MY way", when YOUR way may in effect contradict the Word and
    or Spirit of God...an example being Gay people who don't feel that they
    need to change that behavior when they come to Christianity.  I'm not
    judging Gay people, but I believe this.  ANY person who desires to be
    Christian must do those things that are asked of a Christian by God (If
    you love me DO my commandments, says the Lord).  So this is not just to
    Gay people, but to everyone, regardless of what you are USE to doing
    (i.e. lying, stealing, killing, coveting, bearing false witness,
    serving other gods, etc), we MUST do as God would have us do if we want
    to be a Christian.
    
    Now, on "Despair".  In my understanding of scripture, as Paul says,
    "The trials and suffering we might have today, are nothing compared to
    the glory to be revealed."  Along with many other scriptures, regarding
    this WORLDLY life/existence, it seems that we are to look to that
    better life/existence with a strong faith and "overcome the world."
    
    It gets delicate here, because you've introduced this discussion by
    relating to us about your father--and truly it is he deserves all our
    prayers.  God bless him.  I'm not insensitive to people's pains and
    sicknesses, but I will not become "co-dependent" or get so caught up in
    the present and forget that divine glory to come...it is that very
    vision that I hope to instill in the sick when I speak with them, and
    it takes time for them to adopt that faith, but I think it's rather
    easy for them to realize that such a faith is better than pining away
    in the despair of their present condition...think of Job, how he never
    cursed God, knowing that God is righteous and good.
    
    If doubt is a sin, then so is despair, because they go
    hand-in-hand...SOMETIMES!  Doubt doesn't always lead to despair, as
    Thomas the Doubter shows us, it lead him to "questions" that when
    the answers were revealed he gained greater faith.  But, DOUBT is like
    a "crossroad" to despair or great faith.
    
    I think your father raises a good point regarding "I'd rather be dead
    than preserved in this pain".  It makes me realize the merit, in what
    Europeans considered a "Fatalistic" attitude common to African Slaves,
    African slaves, if prayer or the medicine man couldn't heal you, that's
    as far as it went, and they were content to die.  In other words, they
    wouldn't have gotten on a "dialysis" program in the first place!  They
    would let "fate" run it's course.  In the West, where we TRY to change
    "FATE", Africans seemed primitive, not only cultural and scientifically
    but intellectually as well...but I submit, that Africans by 1500 A.D.
    had known all the material glory or high civilization and technology,
    and opted not to pursue material existence like that any
    further...there is evidence and testimonies by Africans (eg the Pigmy).
    
    I would ask you this, is prolonging ones life as modern medicine does,
    is that ethically "Christian"?  What is the benefit of it, will you be
    able to prepare yourself for the kingdom or after life, with those few
    extra years?  Or is because we REALLY don't believe there is a better
    life to come?
    
    Playtoe

While serving as a hospital chaplain, I deliberately spent most of my
time on the oncology floor.

I remember visiting one particular teenaged black woman, still a girl to
someone of my years.  She had terminal cancer.  She was scared and her eyes
conveyed deep despair.  This wasn't her first time in the hospital to deal
with the disease.

After she explained to me what she had been enduring, I held her arm in
silence for a time.

And then I said to her, "It isn't fair, is it?"

"Oh!" she snapped, her voice unsettled.  "Don't say that!"

"Why not?" I asked.

She confided to me that she didn't want to challenge God on this.  She
didn't want to cause God to become displeased with her; at least, no more
displeased with her than God was already in allowing the cancer to invade
her body.

I whispered her name, my heart clogging up my throat, and I assured her
that God is bigger than that; that it's alright to tell God that she didn't
appreciate her situation one little bit; that it hurts and that it's just
not fair.  We then cried awhile and hugged awhile.

God was there in that embrace.

Richard

    Sometimes people are so afraid of being honest to God with their
    feelings, lest in so doing they commit some presumed sin, that they end
    up hurting themselves.  The feelings are there, whether they cover them
    up or not.  But dishonesty is not the path to spiritual healing, nor
    the path to reconciliation with God.

    To me, neither despair nor doubt are sins.  They are honest feelings,
    which come from the heart.  In my view, the *real* sin is self-denial,
    and the resulting denial of one's feelings before God.   I believe that
    people should not be so afraid of offending God by their doubts or
    feelings of despair.  Such an attitude is often self-destructive, and I
    suspect that God would much more appreciate heartfelt expression of
    concerns and anger from us than the rote recitation of platitudes. 
    Uncertainty and suffering are a part of our lives, and I think that God
    fully understands this.

    There is a difference, I believe, between experiencing honest feelings
    of anger and depression on the one hand, and dwelling on those feelings
    on the other.  How we face up to those feelings is the real test of
    spiritual strength.  But you can't face up to them if you are too busy
    hiding from them.

    -- Mike

    I never thought much about despair until one evening at dinner with
    my pastor we were discussing the book, "The Imitation of Christ," 
    by Thomas Kempis. It turns out that Thomas Kempis was up for
    canonization by the Catholic Church. In the investigation into this
    great man's life, they came to the point where his body would be 
    exhumed, to see if his body possibly avoided decay as other saint's
    bodies had done. In opening his coffin, they discovered finger nail
    marks on the lid of the coffin. Apparently he had been buried alive.
    Well, the church denied his canonization, because they feared he
    committed the sin of despair when he tried to claw his way out, rather
    than trusting himself to God in death.

     And you thought the Marines where tough to get into ?

    Peace
    Jim

    RE: 10
    
    Mike,
    
    I don't know.  I think we must "reverence" God, in our minds, out of
    respect.  For me and most black people, it's not good to running off at
    the mouth, "telling him how you feel", basically, God already knows
    "how you feel", it's about "Make your request known (voice it), and
    saying your praises, and then shutting up and listen and wait for your
    answer.
    
    I mean, a MAN's "honest feelings" are crude and best left unspoken in
    the presence of God.  I mean imagine yourself in the presence of a
    king (on earth), you don't sit and talk with him like you do your next
    door neighbor.  
    
    The only honest feelings I ever show in the presence of God are sincere
    humbleness and reverence and belief, but never "I didn't like this or
    that"...man that's crazy!  You see, MAN's knowledge is limited, even
    his ability to comprehend is limited...so you at best are being
    "arrogant" whenever you presume to know better than God...eg I
    shouldn't have ended up this way, I shouldn't have been made sick like
    this," and these may be your honest feelings, but that's only to say
    that you are honestly arrogant!
    
    Playtoe

    Jim, that's an interesting story about Thomas Kempis.  It's funny, but
    I had never heard of the legend of saints not decaying after they die
    until reading "The Brothers Karamazov" (I am more than 90% finished
    with the book, by the way, and I expect to finish it any week now :-)). 
    There was an incident involving the saintly Father Zossima, whose body
    began decaying abnormally quickly, within 24 hours after his death. 
    This caused quite a scandal, since he was viewed by many as a saint,
    and it was a source of glee for those who resented the man's authority
    and following.  This concept was new to me, and I didn't realize that
    bodily decay had such theological implications.  (Yeah, I know, I keep
    talking about this book, but it really deserves its reputation as a
    classic.)

    I have to admit, I find it interesting that Kempis's final effort at
    self-preservation was considered an act of despair.  That seems to
    suggest that, on the one hand, it is considered sinful despair to keep
    trying  even in the face of an apparently hopeless situation (rather
    than giving in); and yet, it is also despair to give up in the face of
    a hopeless situation.  I can't help but wonder from that what *isn't*
    considered despair.  To me, what Kempis did was right.  He tried to do
    what he could--and what more can be asked of any of us.  Many of us are
    faced with apparently hopeless situations in our lives, and that can be
    asked of us is to try, to do what we can in the face of such odds.  To
    passively accept whatever our circumstances happen to be is to give up
    hope for having any influence on the world, on our lives, and the lives
    of others.  That, to me, is despair.

    -- Mike

    RE:-1
    Mike,
         one point I should make if I've misled  you. Non-Decay of a
    persons body is not a prerequisite for canonization. St. Francis
    of Assisi's body decayed, and I think he's one of the greatest
    Saints that ever lived. 

    I think we can put Tom Kempis in the saint category despite, the
    churches disagreement.

    Peace
    Jim

    Mike,
    
    When I read .0, I didn't wonder whether it was your father's despair or
    the minister's -- I wondered whether it was your father's or your own.
    
    >That seems to
    >suggest that, on the one hand, it is considered sinful despair to keep
    >trying  even in the face of an apparently hopeless situation (rather
    >than giving in); and yet, it is also despair to give up in the face of
    >a hopeless situation.  I can't help but wonder from that what *isn't*
    >considered despair.
    
    1) Some would say that "to give up in the face of a hopeless situation"
       is a matter of trust and acceptance rather than of despair.  Maybe
       it's all in what you call it.
    
    2) This string could benefit from a definition of despair.
    
    3) Without that definition, though, I'll plunge on and ask: What could
       be more despairing than Jesus' cry, "My God, my God, WHY have you
       forsaken me?"  Certainly that was not a mortal sin (nor, in my
       opinion, a sin at all, but rather an honest feeling).
    
    4) In some such painful situations, I feel that taking the
       intiative for ending one's own physically-hopeless situation
       is an appropriately responsible act.  (I'm not suggesting it
       for anything other than a pain-wracked terminal situation or a
       situation of such diminished ability as to make one's life
       unbearable.  [Thinking of my mother-in-law here.]  I hope that 
       if I suffer from such ailment in the
       future I will be able to remain courageous and continue to find
       meaning in my life -- at least in part because I doubt that I
       could commit suicide. ;}  )
    

    >To
    >passively accept whatever our circumstances happen to be is to give up
    >hope for having any influence on the world, on our lives, and the lives
    >of others.  That, to me, is despair.
    
    Sorry, I seemed to have overlooked your definition.  I don't
    think that's always the case.  Passive acceptance can, in some cases,
    bring a great sense of peace and make you a great witness -- which 
    doesn't exclude the value of "fighting the good fight," too.  
    
    It's a matter of determining what God calls you to do in a specific 
    situation.
    
    Nancy

Note 326.12

>    "arrogant" whenever you presume to know better than God...eg I
>    shouldn't have ended up this way, I shouldn't have been made sick like
>    this," and these may be your honest feelings, but that's only to say
>    that you are honestly arrogant!

Certainly, to some degree this is true.  Somehow when you're 19 years old
and grieving the brevity of your own life, it doesn't seem so arrogant.

Richard

    While I was in a bookstore yesterday, I noticed that Robert Pirsig had
    written a new book.  He was the author of "Zen and the Art of
    Motorcycle Maintenance", a book I started to read in college but did
    not have time to finish (I have promised myself to read this book
    completely some day).  I perused the jacket flap, and saw that "Zen and
    the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" had been rejected by over 120
    publishers before it finally made its way to print.  And yet once it
    was published it received wide acclaim.

    I think that if I had been the author, I would have given up after
    100th rejection or so.  :-)  I think the point is, when do you ever
    know that it is time to give up?  How can you ever say for sure that a
    situation requires acceptance?  I don't think it is ever all that
    clear.  The dissidents in Eastern Europe, in those dark days of the
    1970s and 1980s, must have thought from time to time that their efforts
    would not come to fruition either.  What kept them going?

    -- Mike

    Mike,
    
    > What kept them going?
    
    The Force.
    
    Karen

    Mike,
    
    I'm sure that it is difficult to *know* when to accept and when to
    "fight on."  I imagine that the verification you get is
    internal/subjective/intuitive.  Perhaps fighting when we should accept
    and accepting when we should fight are each symptoms of despair?
    
    Consider the stages of dying, which include both struggle and
    acceptance.
    
    Hard questions; no easy answers -- and no certainty about any of this.
    
    Guess that's the meaning of faith.
    
    Nancy