Conference lgp30::christian-perspective

    I no longer consider myself a christian because of the past, because of
    what I see going on in some churches today. I disagree with a lot of
    the rules and regulations that seem to have sprouted over the years.
    
    Instead I stick to what I feel to be the 'spirit' of christianity -
    although I do not acknowledge a god or a christ as such.
    
    Pete.

         
    Amazing timing, Richard.
    
    I do not consider myself a Christian.  However...
    
    It doesn't have anything to do with the state of Christianity today. 
    It has to do with the fact that I have transcended religion altogether.
    
    If I consider myself a Christian, then I am also a Hindu, Buddhist,
    Taoist, and all of the other world religions that have love at the
    center, for to me there is no longer any difference.
    
    With Love,
    
    Cindy

re Note 305.2 by CGVAX2::PAINTER:

>     It doesn't have anything to do with the state of Christianity today. 
>     It has to do with the fact that I have transcended religion altogether.
  
        You sound somewhat like that older "new-ager", James:

        James 1:27 -- Pure religion and undefiled before God and the
        Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their
        affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

        Bob

    re basenote
    
    Certain socalled Christians have at times offended me, but I do not
    fault the Christian Faith for that!  I am a Christian, regardless!
    
    Playtoe

    
    Re.3
    
    Hi Bob,
    
    Will do!  Or, rather, *won't* do!
    
    Cindy

    As I stated in my intro note, the last church I attended did what I
    considered a very un-Christian thing.  I did consider leaving
    Christianity.  I began a casual research of other religions, nothing
    in-depth.  I prayed.  My answer was not and has not been that clear. 
    What keeps me a Christian today is that I believe deeply in the
    principals that Jesus spoke of.  I also believe deeply, though I don't
    verbalize it often, and can't when asked directly, that accepting Christ 
    is the only way.  What I have had to do is try to live by those principals
    and forget about organized religion.  Being very human, I don't always
    succeed, but I do try. :-}
    
    Karen

    
    	NEVER!
    
    	I have been irritated at other christians, more often at those
    that profess to be christians, but don't have a clue what it means
    to surrender to Christ.
    
    	Anyone that would want to 'not be a Christian' because of the way
    they were treated never had a firm relationship with Christ anyway.
    
    	Jesus said, "Anyone, after having placed their hand on the plow,
    looking back is NOT WORTHY to be my disciple".
    
    	What a stupid thing to do, to let an offense separate you from the
    Love of God.
    
    	_ed-

    
    
    But Ed, because a person does not embrace Christianity does not mean
    that they are not in relationship with God.  You only see it this way
    because this is how you strongly believe.  What you believe, however,
    has nothing to do with another person's relationship with God.
    
    IMHO
    
    Carole

    Time for a short reply.

    Our source of faith should not come from human beings, but from
    God alone. If I say I'm no longer Christian because of the way
    a particular group of Christians treated me, then my faith wasn't
    from Christ. 


    To me the basis of this note is really anti-christian and self serving
    righteousness. Consider how many people in the world have to put up
    with your faults ? If you really knew Jesus, you would know your own
    poverty, and thereby be more tolerant of the poverty of others.

    Peace
    Jim

    I disagree, Jim.  I think the problem is that many of us, when we
    encounter Christianity, encounter a lot of intolerance and bigotry, and
    that this bigotry is not incidental, but is in fact done in the name of
    their Christian doctrine.  When we are repeatedly told by these
    self-proclaimed guardians of Truth, who presume to judge who is and
    isn't a Christian on the basis of rigidly interpreted doctrine, who
    hurtfully impose their bigotry on others who seek God, who in effect
    claim that *they* are the epitome of what Christianity is--then those
    of us who have been hurt by these people would just assume take their
    word for it and let them have their religion for themselves.  It is not
    a question of turning away from God (at least not necessarily), but of 
    turning away from those who claim a narrow minded and hurtful brand of
    Christianity for themselves.

    I think that Christians would do well to understand this phenomenon,
    and in particular those Christians who are not characterized by such
    bigotry and intolerance might be interested in how they might be best
    able to deal with this problem.

    -- Mike

	There seem to be some, like Mike in .10, who view distancing ones self
	from Christians as being the same as distancing ones self from 
	Christianity. Others, like myself, see the two as completely different.
	I have from time to time felt like putting some distance between myself
	and some who claim to be Christian. I never want to distance myself
	from Christ. That would lack all logic.

	The center of Christianity is not people, not buildings, not even
	the Bible. The center is Christ. He uses those other things but they
	are not Him. While I get frustrated with some who call themselves
	Christians I never want to be seperated from Christianity.

				Alfred

    I agree, Alfred, that the people are not necessarily the same as the
    faith.  But what if you have been taught that the only religious
    choices available to you are to accept someone else's definition of
    Christianity, or else reject Christianity altogether?  If you reject
    *their* version of Christianity, because you have found it hurtful,
    what is left for you to do?  I think many people may have internalized
    the "either-or" ultimatum that they were taught, and thus reject
    Christianity altogether.  

    -- Mike

    RE:10
    Mike, I see more bigotry and hate in this note than I've seen in quite
    some time. Look at what your writing and tell me where Christ is in
    your life ? Being a Christian means being compassionate and forgiving,
    not just towards people who are not Christian. It means seeing the
    spiritual poverty of these people that have hurt you, and understanding 
    that they too need forgiveness and compassion. Don't look at their faults 
    as a reason for your own bigotry. Have some pity that in that they have not
    seen the true message of Jesus and pray that they will open their eyes
    to what they are doing.

    To use others sins as a reason for our own unwillingness to  forgive,
    is really a cop-out and not at all what the message of Jesus is 
    about.


    "Blest are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every
     kind of slander against you because of me. 
     Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is great in heaven: they
     persecuted the prophets before you in in the very same way." 
     Matthew 5:11-12

    Peace
    Jim

    Jim, who said anything about not forgiving them?  That is a big leap
    from what I said, I don't see how you inferred it from my note, and I
    take strong exception to the insinuation that I was expressing hate and
    bigotry.  Condemning bigotry and intolerance as a form behavior does
    not mean not forgiving those who express hatred and bigotry, and I
    never claimed it did.  I was pointing out that many Christians have, in
    their behavior, turned people away from Christianity because they have
    defined and expressed the Christian faith per se in terms that have
    hurt other people.  This is wrong, and I think unfortunate, because I
    think that Christianity has much to offer as a faith.

    I have met many people who have expressed the hurt they have felt from
    Christianity as it has often been practiced.  The fact that those who
    have done the hurting need our compassion and forgiveness is all true,
    but the point I was making was that there is a need to recognize why
    some people have become disillusioned with the faith, based on that
    hurtful behavior.

    -- Mike

	I know there have been many times where Christians have really gotten
me upset. It usually takes a lot, but when it happens my first immediate
reaction is why continue on with them? The answer is plain and simple. It's not
"them" that I need to continue on with, it's my relationship with Christ. Yes,
these people are part of it, as are non-Christians. With this world being as it
is, with many religions, we have got to learn how to grin and bear it if we're
going to get through life and grow with Christ. I agree with Jim when he states
that we should learn to forgive others and not let others bigotry come between
us and God. What still has to be remembered is that we can't forget that we are
human. That we all have different breaking points, and that each and everyone
of us can get on each others nerves. If someone truly hurts us, the healing
process may not happen instantly. It may take some time. But, through faith, we
can eventually overcome it. 


Glen

    Re: .7
    
    -ed_
    
    I never said 'not be a Christian' or to distance oneself from the
    Deity, only from Christianity.  Although I suspect a degree of pain
    inflicted hard enough and often enough would indeed drive people away
    from the very Author of Life.  I thank God I have not been one.
    
    Richard

    I am a Christian, yet I distance myself from the Christianity professed
    as the "genuine article" by the likes of Robertson, Falwell, Swaggart
    and Bakker.
    
    Were I a gay man, I suspect I would shield myself from the contempt of
    the "Godly" by severing any possibility of threatening contact, and
    that might mean severing myself from the Christian faith.
    
    It's really not as simplistic as some would like to believe it is.
    
    Richard

    i wrote a much better note earlier today..but it got lost when my link
    to this node was severed..
    
    i firmly believe that as christians we are called to Christ as a
    "congregation", that is i don't believe in individual salvation but
    rather in the salvation of us all. for me, it isn't possible to
    conceive of being a christian by myself.
    
    as someone who has been on the receiving end of a great deal of
    hatred in my life, i can readily understand where the base note is
    coming from. in fact, i am such a firm believer in the "congregration"
    concept largely because of my experiences. i sincerely wish that
    it were possible for all of us to have the sort of compassion that
    Jim's wrote about. it isn't possible for me just now. for any gay
    person to have those qualities would, to my mind, make them an
    immediate candidate for beatification.  i'm not a saint, neither am
    i without feelings...i don't blame myself for the anger that i feel
    when i see a friend who face has been smashed and broken,nor for the
    anger when i hear demeaning things said about the love i feel.
    
    i do try my best to get beyond it but i don't turn it on myself. i try
    to have compassion for myself as well as for others. i've often felt
    as though it would be better if i left the Church, for others as well
    as for myself. 
    
    Richard, you most certainly do have a point...most Gay people (of all
    genders) who were born into christian families have left christianity
    behind...i find myself explaining both to gays "why i am a christian"
    and to christians "how i can possibly be gay"
    
    peter

Re: .17 Richard

>    Were I a gay man, I suspect I would shield myself from the contempt of
>    the "Godly" by severing any possibility of threatening contact, and
>    that might mean severing myself from the Christian faith.
    
You know, Richard, now that you mention this, I'm glad that I'm *not* gay
because otherwise people (maybe even me) would think that I left Christianity
because I couldn't accept the church's condemnation of my behavior.  As it is,
I left Christianity not because the church condemned me but because the
religion didn't/doesn't ring true for me intellectually.

				-- Bob

    RE:14
    Mike
         excuse me if I'm reading something into your notes that your not
    saying. I don't mean any disrespect !

    If you wish to condemn intolerance and bigotry I'm with you, 
    however when you target a group of people with it, i.e. "Christians," 
    then I get the idea that your pain  has turned to  hate and bigotry in 
    yourself. If they were truly forgiven, the note would be addressing the 
    sins not the sinners. Don't take this as a holier than thou attitude on my 
    part, for I'm guilty of jumping on the sinner as anyone else. The only
    reason I see it now, is that I have a great deal of experience at it.

    Lets be honest, there is plenty of intolerance and bigotry in all of
    us. The real key is to recognize it so that we can learn to eradicate
    it. 

    Myself, I'm to liberal for conservatives and to conservative for
    liberals, so there aren't a lot of out stretched arms for me in this
    world. The biggest pain that I feel in myself is not rejection by
    others, but the fact that I know that I can and have been the one who 
    has caused pain in others. 

    Peace
    Jim

    Okay, Richard, fair enough.  If it sounded like I was targeting all
    Christians with my criticisms, then I apologize.  I certainly did not
    mean to criticize all Christians with my comments.
    
    -- Mike

    RE: 7
    
    Ed, excellent support, for not turning back!
    
    I moved on into deeper studies, but I still am a Christian, I still go
    to church.
    
    Let me tell you what was my last straw with what I now call
    "traditional church" education.  I was sick, both spiritually and
    physically.  And, being mindful of the scripture, "the laying on of the
    hands of the saints/elders/presbytary? will heal the sick", I went to
    the pastor and asked if he could gather a group that would lay hands on
    me and pray for me.  But he responded "Brother you're sin sick and aint
    nothing we can do for, you got to pray".  And the scripture came to
    mind, "Having the knowledge thereof, but denying the power of God", and
    I was deeply offended, mostly by the manner in which he talked to me. 
    He was a Pastor I respected in the ministry, and I never thought he'd
    respond like that.
    
    But as I searched around, pretty much no church will do this for you. 
    So I began to seek deeper awareness so that I could be able to
    "Physician, heal thyself".
    
    Playtoe

    RE; 8
    
    That's not fair, Carole.  Ed made a *direct* quote of Jesus, and he
    believes in what Jesus said.  Just because he believes it, you do not
    implicate him, else you implicate Jesus as well for believing it.
    
    If Jesus had not said it then you could say that and only implicate Ed,
    but in this case, it's not fair that you point fingers at Ed.  And
    that's more than my opinion, that's a fact.
    
    Playtoe

    RE; 10
    
    Mike, let me comment to some of your points, which are well taken.
    
    Though the "self-proclaimed guardian of Truth", may very consider what
    they do as done in the name of Christian Doctrine, and therefore backed
    by God, nevertheless it is "incidental" to the Christian Doctrine,
    regardless of how frequently it occurs.  I imagine we all, even I, have 
    been and perhaps will again, become guilty, out of zeal mind you, of 
    this.  However, it is all incidently to the doctrine and its intent.
    
    The moral, IMO, is that the fact is that Christianity is for EACH
    individual alone to "work out".  NO MAN need teach you anything, the
    Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth...and in that light one may
    find reason and need to distance thyself from certain Christians, but
    never from Christianity.
    
    I wouldn't be so quick, however, to judge (ie label) anybody as a bigot
    or intolerant (with any permanent intent at least)...it's just about
    "shaking the dust of your feet" and moving on...leave the judgement to
    God.
    
    Playtoe

    Re; 12
    
    True, Mike, but to whatever extent that sort of intimidation effects
    one, it is still incidental to Christianity.  We are told in II Timothy
    I believe, "Study to show THYSELF approved rightly dividing the word of
    truth, a workman who needeth not be ashamed."  We must develop our own
    relationship with God.
    
    I understand where you're coming from, many Pastors conduct *their*
    church in this manner.  Perhaps, Catholicism via the Pope, epitomizes
    this sort of relationship best in the history of Christianity in the
    West.  More specifically as begun during the early Councils of Nicea.
    
    And though many were and are deceived into not thinking for themselves
    by this, God's Word does warn of it, thus making such people
    (regardless of number) incidental to the Christian Doctrine.
    
    Playtoe

    
    RE 13
    
    Jim, that's not fair.  Mike is a Buddhist and even so has a right to
    entertain discussion here.  (I'm not a Mod so don't take this as an
    official warning or anything).  
    
>	Look at what your writing and tell me where Christ is in
>    your life ?
    
    This statement is no doubt most offensive to Mike.  How can he respond
    to it satisfactorily to you without "converting"?
    
    We, Christians, might some day be able to win him, but not if we attack
    him like above.
    
    Playtoe

    re: 15 & 16
    
>  Although I suspect a degree of pain
>    inflicted hard enough and often enough would indeed drive people away
>    from the very Author of Life.  I thank God I have not been one.
    
    Richard, it is for this reason that I do not advocate "Grin and bear
    it", but to move on to more peaceful pastures.  Because we do have
    tendency to fall into our human passions and emotions, which include
    envy and jealousy, we may sometimes do better by leaving...knowing that
    God's church is within and not made of brick and stone and that there
    are temples everywhere.
    
    It doesn't pay to "Grin and bear it", unless you don't have a "breaking
    point"...eventually you WILL break and that will be a sin on your part!
    We are to avoid temptation.
    
    Playtoe

    RE: 18
    
    I believe we are called INTO an assembly or congregation of those who
    love God through Christ, but we come as individuals.  And, I am never
    alone, though I come "by myself" to the kingdom of God.
    
    It is self evident that we come singly into the congregation...each man
    will be judged according to HIS OWN works, and not for what others do.
    
    Do you love God "with all your heart and mind"?  If so, do his
    commandments...this life is very short.  What's more important to you
    doing your will, or doing the will of God?  If your will is more
    important to you, maybe it is best that you (or anybody else for
    whatever reasons may think so) leave the Church.  When you are ready to
    submit totally to the will of God, or willing to suffer the
    consequences of your behavior while in your heart acknowledging God's
    Word as true and right though you may continue in that which is
    contrary to his Will, then you join the Church.  
    
    I'm trying to speak to an issue that is surely raging in our society,
    in Christianity.  I don't want to "condemn" anyone, but the fact is
    every person who desires to enter into the kingdom of God MUST obey the
    commandments of God, whether they like it or not, and if the aren't
    able to obey them, they at must not deceive themselves into believing
    what they do contrary to his Will is acceptable in his
    sight...regardless of what it is they are doing.  
    
    Playtoe

    I'm no longer a christian because christians threatened me when I left.
    They told me I'd be damned to eternity if I left their fold. I left
    anyway, because it occured to me that real christians wouldn't threaten
    like they did.
    
    Pete.

    re.26

    Playtoe:

              I think the Mike in question in reply 13 is Mike V.
    and not myself. None the less I appreciate the sense of 
    fairness and tolerance expressed in your note.
              

                                                               Mike

    re. 29
    
    Why do I have to join a church to do the will of God?  Why can't I find
    and do God's will outside of the church?  Forgive me, but I see your
    message and I feel that what you are saying is that I am NOT doing the
    will of God if I don't attend church.  (Maybe I'm just seeing what I
    want to see, but I am trying to be open-minded here)
    
    Karen

    Also see Note 135.

    	I think there may be a semantics problem here.  My definition of
    Christianity is 'that relationship an individual has with God "&" His
    son Jesus Christ'.  Now if by Christianity you mean an organized
    religion then I can agree with 'some' of the responses here.  But I
    again state that it would be STUPID for a person to sever ties with
    God on behalf of what someone (who claims to be his representative)
    has done.

    	mho
    	_ed-

    If Jesus walked this earth today, "christians" would be foremost in
    trying to eliminate him. 
    
    a follower
    
    john

    john,
    
    just what is the 'pie in the sky by and by dream'?
    
    Bonnie

    I am reminded me of a wonderful and profound story that Ivan Karamazov
    tells his brother Alyosha in "The Brothers Karamazov".  In the story,
    Jesus returns to Seville, Spain, during the Inquisition.  He performs
    miracles, and develops quite a following.  The aged inquisitor of the
    town has Jesus imprisoned, and in a long speech explains to him that
    even if he is really Jesus, he must be killed.  The Church, he
    explained, provided what Jesus refused to do when he resisted the
    devil's temptations in the wilderness.  When Jesus refused to turn the
    stones to bread and rule the nations of the world, when he instead gave
    people their freedom, he denied people what they really needed and what
    the Church offered them.  Jesus was thus a threat to the church and
    must be stopped.

    -- Mike

    
    RE: .8
    
    Hi Playtoe,
    
    Well gee, I thought I was being fair in giving my opinion about Ed's
    reply.  First, you have to understand that I don't use biblical
    quotes.  Second, because the bible says Jesus said that doesn't mean
    he did (imo).  Third, I was replying to Ed's thoughts on this question.
    He used the quote to back up his point.  I stand by what I said.
    Just because one person believes one way, it doesn't mean that anyone
    else has to believe that way.  If fact, person A's beliefs have no
    relevance to person B's beliefs at all.
    
    People have a 'relationship' with God and Christ, even if it doesn't
    fit into your (generic 'your') picture of how that relationship should
    be.  Not everyone is using the same criteria.  I have a relationship
    with God and Christ.  I am not a Christian.  It does not matter how
    many people tell me that I cannot possibly have that relationship,
    because it is 'fact' to me and that is all that counts.  Walking
    away from Christianity does not mean walking away from God and
    Christ necessarily.  It only means that in the minds of some people
    whose belief structure can't allow it in.
    
    Carole

    RE: 32
    
>    Why do I have to join a church to do the will of God?  Why can't I find
>    and do God's will outside of the church?  
    
    Well, let's not confuse the "traditional church" or the brick and steel
    building called the church with the "church" as recognized by Christ.
    
    You don't have to join a church, in any sense of the term.  If you do
    the will of God through Jesus Christ, you are automatically admitted
    and considered part of the church, or the body of Christ.  On the other
    hand, you cannot do God's will "through Christ" outside of the body of
    Christ or the CHURCH.
    
    I don't think I ever said you MUST join a church.  But I do think it is
    important for us to fellowship with those in Christ, in the Body of
    Christ, in the CHURCH...but join a church, I don't think that is
    required.
    
    Insight:  Most of the arguments and debates that I here regarding the
    doctrine of God, invariably involve issues raised out of a confusion of
    Man's interpretation and traditional practice of God's Word vs the
    spiritual meaning and intent of God's Word.  We must learn to "rightly
    divide the word of truth, through study."
    
    Playtoe 

    re: 35
    
    I don't know about that, as it is written "My flock know my voice".
    
    Furthermore, if that were so how can we account for SO MANY different
    "self proclaimed Guardians of Truth"?  In that light, I'd say we might
    be quick to shuffle him into a corner like we do others, but to
    "eliminate" him, I don't think we'd go that far...no we're not the
    ones!

    re .39
    
    Thanks for the clarification.  I had a feeling I had gone down a very
    narrow tunnel with it, I was right! :-)
    
    Karen

    Also see Note 91.665:
    
"........I felt defeated.  I did not want to be at these meetings.  I didn't
want to be a part of these people.  I certainly didn't want to pray, worship,
or sing to their God."
    

    I was raised Protestant;  the first few years of my life, (until I
    was about 8), were spent in a Unitarian church, then my parents joined
    the Congregationalist church in town.  I stayed there until I was about
    16 going to church almost every Sunday.
    
    I began to "wander away" from Christianity somewhere around the age of 10
    - 12.  The teachings/preachings just never 'spoke to my condition,' if
    I may borrow a Quaker phrase......except on the nights the youth
    organization sponsored a dance. :-)  I also recall the confusion in my
    mind of such songs like "Onward Christian Soldiers...marching off to
    war..." when I was taught that Jesus and God were supposed to be about 
    love and forgiveness.
    
    The reality of God was also very suspect for me.  For at one time,
    along with God, I was also told that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and
    the Tooth Fairy existed...and one by one they were revealed as being
    nothing more than imaginary figures that I bought into at the urging of
    my parents and society in general.
    
    I was pissed when I was told they didn't exist.  Why had I been lied
    to like that?  These characters seemed to be nothing more than ploys,
    early behavior modification techniques.  In my mind I wondered if God
    and Jesus were the same.  I silently waited for the day to be told that
    they didn't exist either.
    
    I was also told that God answers prayers.  And I remember praying only
    for one thing in my life as a child.  I never asked God for anything
    more than what I did in that one prayer.  And yet God didn't answer me.
    By the time I was a teenager I was convinced Christianity was nothing
    more than a bunch of bunk.
    
    Christianity does have its problems, there's no doubt about that in my
    mind, but over the last several years I have been gently drawn back to 
    my Christian roots, primarily through the works of Matthew Fox, Creation
    Spirituality, and various Christian mystics.  Also, the community  
    in C-P, the Christians and non-Christians alike, and a few very special 
    people here have really helped me to realize the love of God and Christ
    in my life even more fully.   For that I am *very* thankful.  While not
    necessarily calling myself a Christian, I am closer to Christianity today 
    than I've ever been before in my life.
    
    Karen 

    
    Hi Kb,
    
    I'm curious about something you wrote in .43 and I hope you don't mind 
    my asking here.  Do you find that it is important for you to be close
    to Christianity?  If so, why?
    
    
    Thanks much,
    Carole

Hi Karen,

>    I also recall the confusion in my
>    mind of such songs like "Onward Christian Soldiers...marching off to
>    war..." when I was taught that Jesus and God were supposed to be about 
>    love and forgiveness.
    
Isn't it "marching *as* to war"?  I'm not sure, but I think the song is using
war as a metaphor for the spiritual battle fought by Christians.  I'll have to
read the lyrics the next time I visit my parents (unless someone in C-P would
like to post them).

>    The reality of God was also very suspect for me.  For at one time,
>    along with God, I was also told that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and
>    the Tooth Fairy existed...and one by one they were revealed as being
>    nothing more than imaginary figures that I bought into at the urging of
>    my parents and society in general.
    
That's interesting to me because of conversations I've had with my brother and
sister about the way they will/would raise their children.  They both plan to
tell their kids about S. Claus etc. because it's traditional, and bring their
kids up in the church even though they don't necessarily believe in God,
because church is supposedly a good environment and would make the kids part of
the community.  If I ever had kids I'd want to be honest with them, but I'd
hate to seem like a spoilsport by not letting my kids believe in Santa Claus.
Your story gives me confidence to do the right thing - even if not all kids
feel betrayed because their parents "lied" to them, the fact that some do means
it's at least reasonable to tell kids that Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy etc.
are "just pretend".

What would be tricky would be to explain my agnostic beliefs about God to my
kids: Grandma and Grandpa believe in God but I don't, except that I don't
*know* that God doesn't exist, I just can't see any reason to think that he
*does* exist...  I can just picture them trying to repeat all this to their
friends.

				-- Bob

	It is "*as* to war". But when we're young things sound different.
	I remember a hymn that had the line "until ever foe is vanquished"
	As I kid I "heard" "until every hole is vanished" and pictured
	Jesus waving a sword over holes and them closing.

			Alfred

    Karen, thanks for sharing that with us.  Like you, I became
    disillusioned with the Christianity I was taught as a youth.  And also
    like you, I have drawn closer to my Christian roots in recent years,
    even though I don't define myself as a Christian.

    Carole, I think your question to Kb is a good one.  In my own case, I
    think that because Christianity was an important part of my life as a
    youth, it has helped to shape what I am.  It is a part of me and my
    spirituality, and not through any choice of my own, much in the same
    way that many other aspects of our upbringing is inevitably
    incorporated into our being.  Although I have an interest in many
    different religions (Buddhism, for example), I find myself most often
    drawn to Christianity as a source for spiritual inspiration, simply
    because it usually speaks to my condition more closely than other
    religions do.

    So I don't think it is important for me to be close to Christianity.  I
    am close to Christianity simply as a matter of fact.  It's a part of my
    personality.  I am drawn to the mystery of being, and I have a need for
    religious expression, and that religious expression is closer to
    Christianity than to other religions.  The fact that I am drawn more to
    Christianity than other religions is a personal taste, and I don't
    impose that on others, who for various reasons may be drawn to other
    religions, or even to none at all.

    Having said that, I do find it sad when people are negatively disposed
    towards Christianity because of their own bad experiences.  I sometimes
    want to tell them that all of Christianity really isn't bad.  I think
    that religion has something valuable to offer people, and I think it is
    unfortunate when people are turned off from it, not because of anything
    inherent in the religion, but by the expression of faith by those who
    have defined Christianity exclusively in terms of the very behavior
    that has turned others off. It has been said here that one should not
    give up God simply because of human failing.  I generally agree, but I
    also think that it isn't always that simple, especially you have
    internalized a theological ultimatum that offers rejection of
    Christianity altogether as the only alternative to what you have been
    presented.

    I think that the question then becomes, how can you get past the hurts
    that others have experienced from individuals Christians, and tell them
    that the love and compassion that Christianity preaches can really be
    found if they just know where to look?  I am not saying this as a means
    of promoting Christianity per se, but I do think that Christianity does
    have spiritual value (as do many other faiths).  That relates to some
    of your comments, Bob, which I found interesting.  My own feeling is that
    a religious upbringing did have value for me, even though I don't agree
    with the doctrines that I was taught.  One possible choice for parents
    who want their children to have some kind of religious upbringing, even
    if they themselves don't believe in the Christian doctrines as such, is
    to bring them up in a UU church; UU churches generally do have an
    interest in Religious Education for children.  That probably has to do
    with the fact that many parents do attend UU churches precisely for
    that reason--to provide some kind of religious environment for their
    children.  I can't speak for Quaker religious education, because the
    Colorado Springs meeting was too small to have anything, and I don't
    know what other Quaker meetings have to offer in that regard.

    -- Mike

    Carole,
    
    In answer to your question, no, I do not find it is important for me
    to be 'close' to Christianity.  While still a staunch critic of dogma 
    I perceive in Christianity (or any other religion or 'school of
    thought'), I *do* appreciate those experiences over the last several
    years which I cited, that have allowed me other perspectives into 
    Christianity than the dogma I've seen or the one I grew up with.  
    
    What is of the utmost primacy for me, personally, is to have a
    one-"in"-one relationship with God -- to know God through my *own* 
    experience, rather than simply know "about God" through someone else's, 
    I don't care who that someone is.  For me, this relationship *far* 
    transcends the bounds of any traditional religion I've encountered.  
    I guess the closest "label" I could come to describing myself would 
    be a mystic.
    
    Kb

    RE; 42
    
    (Extracted from 91.665)
    
>To my delight, the final speaker was fantastic.  He preached about a God
>who excludes no one, a God who empowers all to live out God's own accepting,
>forgiving love.
    
    Excuse me, but what God is this...surely not the God of Christianity!
    
    The Christian God has "standards".  Consider Satan, who was expelled. 
    As it is written, "If he spared not the angels who sinned..."
    
    The Christian God extends his invitation to ALL, "COME", but "Many are
    called but few are chosen,"  "he will cut it short in righteousness",
    "unless thy righteousness exceed that of the scribes and pharisees ye
    shall IN NO WISE enter into the kingdom of God."
    
    As harsh as it may sound and be that some, or even many be excluded,
    how much more harsh would it be to let the wicked, unruly, and/or
    disobedient, to enter in bringing violence and confusion into the
    kingdom of God?  
    
    That's another aspect of, related to the topic 312 Sacred vs
    Secular...and my line of demarcation being that of the Spirit vs the
    Letter.  We need to be atoned with the Spirit of God, before we can
    even attempt to make decisions for the Kingdom!
    
    How can the lion lie down with the lamb if he hasn't overcome his meat
    eater cravings?
    
    Playtoe

The following was submitted by someone who requests to remain anonymous.

Richard Jones-Christie
Co-Moederator/CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE
===========================================================================
.17> Were I a gay man, I suspect I would shield myself from the contempt of
.17> the "Godly" by severing any possibility of threatening contact, and
.17> that might mean severing myself from the Christian faith.
.17> It's really not as simplistic as some would like to believe it is.

Well, Richard, I am a gay man and I have very "simply" severed myself from
the Christian faith, and, any other faith.  To me, it was quit simple.  I
put two and two together and I didn't get four.

I knew when I was a teen that I was gay, but, because I came from a VERY
strong background of Southern faiths (Baptist and Assembly of God) I was
taught very early in life that this "thing" of two men together was a
sin in the eyes of God.  It was "vile" - unthinkable to a Christian.  Hey,
what could I do but take my own life?  I certainly couldn't embarrass my
parents or ... by all means ... the "church" ... by letting them know that
I was one of these vile people ... then again, if I took my own life that
would most assuredly cause my parents and the "church" a great deal of
anguish .. so .. I'll let someone else kill me and everything will  be
just great!!

I joined the Marines and went to Vietnam.  Surely with a war going on I
could get myself blown away ... I'm now a dead hero instead of a dead
suicide or a dead gay person. Indeed, that's the ticket!

Fortunately for my comrades in arms I thought more about living than I did
about dying and I managed to pull our fire team out of some serious situations.
I killed a lot of people in the process - the M-60 machine gun is a very
efficient and effective weapon.  You know what?  I got a lot of medals pinned
all over me.  I got MEDALS for killing people and SCORN for loving one!!!

It suddenly occurred to me that there was something seriously wrong with this
picture, and, perhaps, just perhaps, something "wrong" with this Christian
stuff that I had been raised with for 17 years of my life.

"Onward Christian Soldiers" ... indeed .. but just don't *love* one of those
Christian Soldiers.  It's fine to kill them, but, don't love 'em.

I won't bore you with any more of this, but, that was over 20 years ago and
I have resolutely and positively rejected the Christian faith, all organized
religions and this person called "God".  To this day, years later, I still
see those self-same "Christians" telling me that I am an abomination before
the Lord.  I shudder to think of the kids who are going through the same
torture that I went through many years ago.  It does not appear that anything
has changed.

Maybe, just maybe, I can catch some of these "Christian" kids before they
are successful at doing what I wanted so desperately to do.  I therefore
distance myself from ... "Christianity".

Thanks for listening.  You may send any replies/comments to the author
of the base note and he will forward them to me for I distance myself
from this conference and am but an infrequent read-only participant.
I could not help but respond to this note.

    RE: .50  Anon,
    
                     Wow!  A *VERY* explosive statement and one that should
    give *ALL* christians pause.
    
                      I don't have the reference in front of me, so I'll
    have to paraphrase the content of the passage that most Christians
    point to and then we can try to deal with it.  Here it is...." And God
    saw it an abomination"....speaking of two men "together".
    
    
                      First....This word "sin" is a very difficult word to
    apply here.  "We are all concieved in sin".  That passage tells me that
    You and I were born in sin so the logical conclusion is to think that
    the sex act is sin.  I have a hard time believing that.  Maybe we have
    a "sin" nature......more along my line of thinking.  SO......If we all
    sin....then why is your sin so much more than my everyday sin?  Since
    God cannot "look upon" sin then it really doesn't matter what sin you
    committ, God cannot look upon it!  One passage that *should* be applied
    here is "Let those who are without sin cast the first stone".  I will
    cast *NO* stones at you!
    
                    So now we are left with this word "abomination".  Why
    would God use that term?  God *DOES* approve of love between men but
    not the physical act.  But that cannot be true either because God
    allowed David concubines which David "went in unto".  I think this word
    has been misused and misinterpreted.  I'll check on it further.  
    
                     Please don't allow peoples prejudices and fear to rule
    your life and keep you out of Gods light because they project their
    thoughts on you.  Take it to God and allow God to answer that question.
    
    
    
    Dave 

    RE:50

    As a Marine M60 machine gunner myself MOS 0331, I appreciate your note.

    Please understand however, that I don't understand. That is, I don't
    understand the gay lifestyle, not that I'm condemning in anyway, I just
    don't understand it. I see gay males, having the ability to have sexual
    relations with women, but the thought of having a sexual relationship
    with another man, makes most heterosexuals including myself repulse the
    idea. It's not our fault, just as gays claim that their orientation is
    not  a choice. To further complicate things, we heterosexuals have
    Scripture to support (or at least we believe we do) our repulsive 
    feelings towards homosexual sodomy.

     The condemnation and cruelty that gay people have suffered is also
     repulsive to me. I'm really saddened, by what many gay people have
     suffered in the name of Christianity. The tied is turning however,
     where gays are now attacking Christians and the Church in ways that
     are also unjustifiable. Groups throwing condoms at clergy at church 
     services and receiving communion and spiting it out on the streets in
     front of the church are becoming common occurrences seen on the evening
     news these days.

    Lack of understanding  between both is the common cause. Hopefully, some 
    common ground can be reached. I pray  that it comes quickly.

    Peace
    Jim

    
    some i couple of quick comments...
    
    perhaps i've missed something in the news recently, but to my
    knowledge there has been only one incident. at St. Patrick's in
    New York...there have been other demonstrations but there have 
    been demonstrations for years without any comment from the press.
    hardly "common" and in the news every evening...
    
    although ACT-UP did some nasty things, let's keep this in perspective.
    they did no harm to anyone's person. the same cannot be said of our
    society towards gay people. 2/3 of all gay people report having been
    assaulted because of their orientation. every one of us knows
    personally someone who has been beaten or killed.
    
    i have lost several friends including Lee (a very gentle middle aged
    jeweler) who was stabbed more than 60 times and whose mutilated
    body indicated the extreme torture he was subjected to before he died.
    
    gay bars being bombed and gay bookstores being bombed..they don't make
    the News. the brutality that we see and hear about never finds its way
    to straight ears but please believe me it happens each and every day
    
    peter

    ACT-UP threw condoms and spit at Cardinal Law and others in an
    ordination ceremony in Boston, Mass. 

    Local Churches have had condoms nailed to the doors of the church.

    I agree that gays and lesbians have suffered much more than this, but
    this behavior can't help but polarize peoples feelings on the issues.

    Jim

    jim,
    
    i guess what i'm trying to get at is that gay people are already
    "polarized".
    
    in 1986, 650,000 people marched in Washington. Jesse Jackson among
    others spoke. this was the largest demonstration for civil rights
    ever in our country. not a word in the press...most straight people
    are totally unaware that this march ever happened. 
    
    a small radical group does something dramatic and it makes headlines
    for days and is seen on national television repeatedly.
    
    does this seem to you to be giving gay people a fair shake? 
    
    peter

    RE:56

    Peter, 
       the group that committed the violent act is hardly a small insignificant
    group. 


    Jim

    This discussion has veered away from the topic.  To continue the
    tangental discussion, please post your entries at either Note 91
    (Christianity and Gays) or 335 (Criticism of the church/Criticism
    of others).
    
    Richard Jones-Christie
    Co-mod/CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE